Mini 462: Just another game of Mafia... over

[Falcone]

I don't have time to think about this rather crazy situation in-depth right now, but I do want to put out another idea: it's possible we have two different groups of mafia. That would mean one mason pair is legit, and the other two are false. That would also mean that we have two cops...

Wait a minute... I was in a game once where there were two families of mafia, with two cops that could each find just one of both families. It was called Italian Mafia or something... LoudMouthLee was the mod...

More later.

[Elias_the_thief]

kill n9v?
no, i'm planning to kill elias.

Are you kidding me? If I were scum why would I openly out myself, with all the discussion of scum/town pairings and scum/scum pairings, why would I do that? If me and N9V were a scumpair it would be completely stupid for me to claim. I cant speak for N9V, but I'm protown.

[Khelvaster]

Before all these quote chains get out of hand, I'm going to prune some stuff from excessive quotes by seperating them out in my post, if you don't mind. The format is starting to get on my nerves when I look at my post and see five QUOTE=XXXXXX before any content. It also is harder to remember who posted what. Anyway,

I almost want to lynch Hand Banana...I feel unsafe with him as our vig. He isn't scummy, but the way he's acting makes me feel really bad about his judgement to hit scum instead of townies at night. He apparently read through Tapioca mafia...in that game, the vig nailed a townie night 1 and a doc night 2. Despite this, we could just tell him not to kill anyone. That would weaken him down to a townie, but it would be better IMO than losing a townie.

Khelvaster, would the following statement...

"IMO, hand banana should allow himself to be used as a second lynch, or at least agree not to fire. If he refuses, I'd consider lynching him even though he is an uncounterclaimed vig, since I don't trust his scumhunting abilities and his Azwolging behavior could be disasterous for the town."

...be a reasonable paraphrase of what you were trying to say in Post 152?

That is exactly the point I was trying to convey, yes. I said it in a somewhat less diplomatic tone, because I believed HB to have already stated his desire to be independant.

I find it rather interesting that you say that's "exactly the point you were trying to convey". See, when I originally wrote that paraphrase I wasn't actually trying to paraphrase your post 152.

That doesn't really matter. I said the point

I was trying to convey

. I didn't admit to having conveyed that point well. Also, one of the pivotal points in your arguments against me has been that I advocated HB's lynch. I never at any time did so. I said that I "almost" felt like lynching him. That means I don't, not that I do. What is so unclear about that?

Now, let's take a look at your posts 212 and 213:

Vote: Tarhalindur

Tar is the only person I've seen who is continuously trying to take down a claimed, unchallenged vig. That is not good in my book.

Tar is also using an argument for lynch that is definitely a scumtell. He is saying the claimed vig is an inexperienced forced vig, and therefore we should lynch him. Tar has lain low most of the game--he now reared his ugly head to try and get a quick lynch.

Setting aside the obvious problems with this post (I wasn't even arguing for a lynch, let alone a quick lynch - considering a lynch, yes, but not actually arguing for it), I find this post, if not a direct contradiction of Khelvaster's post 152, then at least very hypocritical in light of his 152, seeing as Khelvaster's attacking me for using the

exact same train of thought

that he followed in his own 152.

First of all, I already said that I had confused you and Panzer. It was a mistake in my memory. Townies can do that just as much as scum can.

Second, I said I *almost* wanted to lynch HB because he was so out of control. I did, however, recant

in the same post

by saying that the town would be better off with HB not vigging anyone than us lynching him or his vigging without our deciding who his vig should be. You seem to have either misread or misinterpreted my text. Go back and read post 152 and you will see very clearly that I don't advocate lynching HB in any way. That fact also answers your next argument, so I will skip to the end of your post.

I don't agree with you that you've been acting in a pro-town way. Indeed, given the contradictions I'm seeing in your posts and the breadcrumb hunt you led us on, I think that you're probably scum, and Panzer is probably the real cop.

1. I claimed that I had acted in a pro-town way (implying at least once,) not that I had always acted in a pro-town way. Some people tend not to contribute anything at all to games--I contributed a good deal of stuff. Looking back, I see that the breadcrumb hunt was a bad idea for wasting time.

2. Regarding the breadcrumb hunt, I justified why I did that. Here is the relevant quote.

I was telling you guys to go out and find it because there are three scum and nine townies. The chance of a townie finding one is three times higher than that of a scum, assuming just one person finds it. If someone did find it and that person was a townie, he could say he found it, without giving away the specific role, and yet still verifying that I was ok.

I was trying to give the scum a minor headache at night if it happened that a townie found my crumb but not a scum. More specifically, if the doc knew I was good from a townie confirmation and protected me, the scum would be agonizing over whether I was doc or cop, and could quite possibly waste their NK on me.


There, Tar. Have I adequately defended myself?

[Khelvaster]

kill n9v?
no, i'm planning to kill elias.

i have no reason to believe you more than i do panzer.

`
Yeah, but why the hell would you kill elias? Look at the scenarios.

1. He and n9v are both town. You just killed a town, and maybe the scum/no-scum pair theory holds up.

2. He is town and n9v is scum. See #1.

3. He is scum and n9v is town. Very unlikely--elias/roland are much less scummy than some other people in this game.

4. Both he and n9v are scum. Would mean either 5 scum (incredibly unlikely) or a town-town and scum-town mason pair. Also very unlikely, because why would n9v make that extremely risky mason claim in the first place if it would just bring 2 more scum into the spotlight.

n9v is not only scummier, but his being scum would mean a jackpot, since he has so much to analyse. You can get others' opinion on this--elias is definately not the NK for today.

[hand banana]

1.Are you kidding me? 2. If I were scum why would I openly out myself, with all the discussion of scum/town pairings and scum/scum pairings, why would I do that? 3. If me and N9V were a scumpair it would be completely stupid for me to claim. 4.I cant speak for N9V, but I'm protown.

i inserted numbers in his post, so i could answer them:

1. no
2. there are no scum/scum mason pairings, only scum/townie (and if falcone is right there might be one townie-townie pair and that's the only reason i will reconsider my decision about you, cause i'm pretty sure N9V is townie). and you outed yourself because n9V would out you right after he reads the last page anyways.
3. yeah, but n9v is not scum, there are no scum/scum mason pairs, and this point makes no sense at all.
4. ok. i don't believe you right now, BUT i only base this on his reaction and an assumption that all mason pairs are scum-townie. so, as i said, i will seriously reconsider my decision.

[hand banana]

4. Both he and n9v are scum.

no, it's unlikely that 2 masons are both scum. not just unlikely but impossible.

3. He is scum and n9v is town. Very unlikely--elias/roland are much less scummy than some other people in this game.

well, to me, this scenario has probability of about 95%, if there are no townie/townie pairs, as i said on last page.

[Elias_the_thief]

1. then i doubt your decision making ability and wish you were not a vig.
2. I mean scum pretending to be a mason pair. Obviously theres no point in calling two mafioso masons. And if you havent noticed N9V has been lurking most of the game. There was no guarantee he would show up anytime soon. I took the initiative because im protown.
3. um, how do you know that N9V isnt scum? So far he's random voted, counterclaimed a mason claim, and fosed based on this. What exactly makes him seem protown to you as opposed to me?

[AlSleet]

Hmm starnge indded. That there would be two setsof Masons then? Either that, or Jenter and Rishi are scum partners. Because I am also a Mason, and my partner, who will be left unnannounced, is also amason (Well look at that ) Two, sets of Masons is really, really unlikely.

Vote Rishi MAJOR FoS Jemter

If my partner wishs to claim, so be it, but I will not claim for him.

What the hell? Either like 2/3 of everyone in this game is lying or this is the oddest setup ever.

[AlSleet]

wow, what???

we now have 2 claimed cops, and 4 claimed masons?
haha

are you guys kidding me..
when i saw the title "Just another game of Mafia..." i expected just the opposite, but this..... omg.

can there be 2 sets of masons??


if we have so much power roles, then mafia has roleblockers, godfathers and whatnot. but since i will publicly say who i'm going to vig, if i get roleblocked, we'll have a target for lynch the next day (unless mafia blocks me even if i want to kill townie, so that we use our lynch on him the next day, depriving the town of one lynch.. bah.. it's all wifom, and it's all f-ed up).

ok.. i am against the lynch of claimed cops.
i am for lynch of one of the claimed masons. i will 99% not use NK tonight.

--
i think that first masons that claimed are scum. i think their reasoning was: since there are so many power roles, there are no masons, and we should breadcrumb/claim it. but they were wrong..

this scenario is much more likely then 2 mafia guys juts exposing themselves counterclaiming the real masons.
makes no sense to me.
so in my eyes jenter and rishi are clear.

nekka and alsleet are either scum (which is more probable) or other pair of masons (less probable).
-------
and i will vote for either one of them. but i will not vig the other on the first night because they can be masons. if one of them turns scum, i'll vig the other on the next day.

--

one more thing: can there be a 2 pairs of masons but both pairs consisting of one townie and one scum? that would be very bad for us.

You have nothing to base my scumminess on other than the fact that partner outed my role prematurely which I do not agree with. You can see from my earlier posts I'm against roleclaiming and I still am. But, in order to protect my partner I did confirm my role. You should reconsider and think about why all these people jumped on the "let's claim mason!" bandwagon.

[AlSleet]

i have a new strategy.

we have 3 pairs of masons (maybe even 4, we'll see about that).

there is no doubt in my mind that every pair consists of one townie + one scum.

so there we have:

1st pair: nekka and alsleet
i'm not sure
50%-50%

2nd pair: rishi and jenter
i'm pretty sure
5%-95%

3rd pair: N9V and XXX
also, pretty sure NV is town
5% - 95%

and my plan is: we lynch jester, and i Night Kill NV's partner.
ok with that?

and panzer khelv situation will be resolved when we get theris investigations.
i think town wins easily in this game.

Ever think that one claimed mason pair can just be scumbuddies looking for an alibi? I think it's a bit ridiculous to assume that each pair has one scum in it. At least one has to be a legit pro-town pair.

[hand banana]

3. um, how do you know that N9V isnt scum? So far he's random voted, counterclaimed a mason claim, and fosed based on this. What exactly makes him seem protown to you as opposed to me?

ok.. i will explain my train of thoughts about you and him.

so, first i realized this: there are 3 mason pairs.
mafia counterclaiming masons would be stupid.
so then, all 3 pairs are REALLY masons.
only way this could ever be in a setup is if every pair consists of one townie + one scum.
so, you and n9v are a pair.
one of you is scum, the other one is townie.
and then he said this:

Two, sets of Masons is really, really unlikely. Vote Rishi MAJOR FoS Jemter

it seems to me he wants to lynch them both, and he actually believes that they are fake masons.
scum would
1. know that there are more masons
2. would not react like that, wanting to lynch both of them.
so, n9v is townie.
that means you're scum.

similar reasoning led me to believe rishi is townie, and jeneter is scum.
that's why i said want to lynch jenter and kill you.
about 3rd pair nekka and alsleet, i'm not sure, and i would like both cops to investigate ONLY ONE OF THEM. and this has to be pre-aranged because of that thing falcone mentioned about 2 cops being able to investigate only one mafia family.
(to give an example: say there are really 2 cops. and say nekka is scum. and khel can detect him but panzer can't. panzer investigates him, and khel investigates other guy, and we have nothing. only way we ca be sure is if we pre-determine cops investigations)

so @ both cops (if we really have 2 cops): investigate nekka.
if we do this,
i'm pretty sure that we will have 2 scum dead in the morning, and 3rd mason pair will also be exposed. if falcone is right and we have 2 cops we will either get 2 results on nekka (1 guilty and 1 innocent) or 2 innocent, and we'll know who to lynch on day 2.
if i make a mistake and kill the wrong guy, in worst case scenario, we will have 1 more day.
i think this game is practically allready won.
who's with me?

[Rishi]

I honestly think it's the setup. I think three mason pairs are possible. I don't know why hand banana won't even consider that maybe all these mason pairs are legitimate. He's getting fixated on the idea that each mason pair must contain a scum. Possible, but, before we go down that road, I would prefer to consider that perhaps all the Masons are legitimate.

So, perhaps the six masons are all real, the two cops are both real and the vigilante is real. Who hasn't claimed anything yet? Falcone, ac1983fan, and Tarhalindur. Three Mafia seems about right for a mini game.

I really think that, for now, Khelvaster and Panzerjager should be let off the hook. There could be two cops (possibly one with sanity issues) and cop is a much more valuable role to the town than mason.

[hand banana]

what? you think that there are 6 masons, 2 cops and a vig, in a 12 player setup?
you gotta be kidding me.

that's 9 people.
other 3 are then mafia.
that has to be the most ridiculous setup ever.
9 power roles and 3 mafia.

mass role claim, and game is over.
every mason pair is scum+townie. if we kill a townie by mistake, only thing we need to do is to kill the other guy. and cop is also VERY important cause in a setup like this 1 investigation count for 2!!!
cause he clears one guy, and accuses the other.

[hand banana]

I honestly think it's the setup.

unvote: Jenter

i'm not that sure anymore about you and jenter.

[Elias_the_thief]

So, youre basing the fact that N9V is town on YOUR interpretation of his FOS as a serious threat to lynch, something he didnt specify. Not to mention that your argument is completely WIFOM in the first place. How can you even consider killing either of us tonight, with so little info?

Also, how can you be sure that none of the mason pairs are genuine? maybe ours is. man, I really hate when power is handed to someone who will use it to hurt the town.

[AlSleet]

3. um, how do you know that N9V isnt scum? So far he's random voted, counterclaimed a mason claim, and fosed based on this. What exactly makes him seem protown to you as opposed to me?

ok.. i will explain my train of thoughts about you and him.

so, first i realized this: there are 3 mason pairs.
mafia counterclaiming masons would be stupid.
so then, all 3 pairs are REALLY masons.
only way this could ever be in a setup is if every pair consists of one townie + one scum.
so, you and n9v are a pair.
one of you is scum, the other one is townie.
and then he said this:

Two, sets of Masons is really, really unlikely. Vote Rishi MAJOR FoS Jemter

it seems to me he wants to lynch them both, and he actually believes that they are fake masons.
scum would
1. know that there are more masons
2. would not react like that, wanting to lynch both of them.
so, n9v is townie.
that means you're scum.

similar reasoning led me to believe rishi is townie, and jeneter is scum.
that's why i said want to lynch jenter and kill you.
about 3rd pair nekka and alsleet, i'm not sure, and i would like both cops to investigate ONLY ONE OF THEM. and this has to be pre-aranged because of that thing falcone mentioned about 2 cops being able to investigate only one mafia family.
(to give an example: say there are really 2 cops. and say nekka is scum. and khel can detect him but panzer can't. panzer investigates him, and khel investigates other guy, and we have nothing. only way we ca be sure is if we pre-determine cops investigations)

so @ both cops (if we really have 2 cops): investigate nekka.
if we do this,
i'm pretty sure that we will have 2 scum dead in the morning, and 3rd mason pair will also be exposed. if falcone is right and we have 2 cops we will either get 2 results on nekka (1 guilty and 1 innocent) or 2 innocent, and we'll know who to lynch on day 2.
if i make a mistake and kill the wrong guy, in worst case scenario, we will have 1 more day.
i think this game is practically allready won.
who's with me?

Quit trying to be the freaking leader. Nobody in their right mind is going to fall in line with somebody who was the impetus for what became a mass role claim. Look at the mess it caused, man. Now step back and consider the very probable option that at least one mason pair is legit. There are many different situations that can explain the six mason claim and I'm sure if we all use logic and maybe cop investigations and get to the bottom of it. But to assume each pair has a scum in it is ridiculous in my mind and I am certainly not going to abide by your, yet again, unnecessarily risky plan.

[hand banana]

to tell you the truth, i didn't expect and elias to abide but what are you afraid of?

There are many different situations that can explain the six mason claim

like what?
there is only 1. and that is if all 6 are genuine. there's no reason for townie to lie, and there's no reason for scum to expose themselves like that. and not to mention the fact that absolutely no one was under any kind of pressure when all these claims came.

[Elias_the_thief]

Hand Banana: That possibility is still valid. You do not have enough info to kill someone right now. The proper protown play is to sit on your kill for now.

[Rishi]

Well, I know I was against this and am ALWAYS against this, but in light of things, I have a good idea. Mass claim. It'll help the town at this point.

Note: I will be complaining about the set up after the game.

Oh you will huh?

By the way, this post by the mod is very telling. He gets really defensive when someone criticizes the setup, which leads me to believe it is an unusual setup. If it were a normal setup, the mod would just sit back amused at all the lying that is going on. But, instead, he adopts a, "Huh? What's wrong with my setup?" attitude.

Honestly, at this moment, I believe all role claims.

[~N9V~]

I dont feel like waiting for N9V. I've returned, and I am his mason partner. My PM says nothing about his innocence/guilt however.

Yes elias is my partner. And like him, I didn't find anything in th role description saying one of us is scum.

But I do have an idea on the type of setup. Theres cop, doc, vig, mafia, and everyone else is a mason with a partner. That's the only logical conclusion I can thik of as of now.

[Tarhalindur]

Masons - are you mod-confirmed or not?

If you aren't mod-confirmed, then we probably have 1-2 scum hiding in the masons.

If you are, then this setup is officially borked in favor of the town, seeing as in that case we have 6 masons, a doc, and probably a cop. (Yes, I know that there's a Doc. I would, seeing as I'm the Doc.)

[Elias_the_thief]

yeah, i said earlier that my pm confirmed nothing in terms of innocence. It only says that N9V is my fellow mason. (well technically it says belgarion, but N9 is his replacement).

[Rishi]

My role PM just says that Jenter Brolincani is my partner and that I win with the town. And we can communicate at night. It says nothing about his guilt or innocence.

I agree that this could possibly mean there are some Mafia masons. I thought the statement that I win with the town was kind of odd in a Mason message. Maybe there's another Mason message that says that people win with the Mafia?

(By the way, I know that we cannot quote the Role PMs, but I assume it is okay to paraphrase them? Since no one can tell if I'm lying or not?)

I will admit that now I am very suspicious of Jenter Brolincani. I was defending him a little bit earlier because I thought he was innocent as my Mason partner. I actually made a note, when night fell, to PM him and tell him to act less scummy. I really want to stay with the assumption that he is Pro-Town, because he is a fellow Mason. But, I honestly can see both sides of the issue.

Everyone has claimed except Falcone and ac1983fan. I'm not generally in favor of mass roleclaiming, but, under the circumstances, I think it's appropriate.

[Nekka-Lucifer]

It says you are masons with alsleet and win with the town when all town threats are gone... and also, hav* no special abilities

*Mods spelling mistake, not mine

are you guys kidding me..
when i saw the title "Just another game of Mafia..." i expected just the opposite, but this..... omg

I think the words sarcasm and irony come to mind

[mnowax]

Nekka-Lucifer, Mason has been ModKilled due to directly quoting the Mod's PM

This game is directly going into night, as if there were a lynch. Night deadline will be a t Monday at Midnight EDT.