Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[Aneninen]

A couple of answers, and I don't even say that this'll be an answer for everything – as I said, I'll ISO you sooner or later. (Most probably later, it's late here and I'll be away tomorrow.)
As for your Antihero-read. I would say that I might believe you, for the same reason I believed your BBT read... (If you're town, you may be right, if you're scum such reads for your partners wouldn't make sense) But, if I said that (1) BBT would jump on me again instantly (okay, that was partly a joke), and (2) see below, about BBT!
The next two parts give me a strange feeling... I also use similar (and same) phrases (eg. "I know that it's only my word that...") when I'm town. But, I mimed that in C9++ (Open 573), soooo... either you have a similar base-mindset or what'sitcalled or you're just fooling me. (By the way, you needn't answer this if you don't want to, but, how old are you?)
As for the "helpful hint..." what'll happen if we lynch Vettrock and he flips scum? And what'll happen if he flips town?

Your readlist. I'd be really, really surprised if Penguin were scum. But, the position of BBT disturbs me. You were literally raging on Day1 that he's town. Now he's the 4th scummiest player. What has changed?

[mastin2]

(By the way, you needn't answer this if you don't want to, but, how old are you?)

My age is my most cherished internet secret. More valuable than my appearance (which I used to not care about, until last year when I got all self-conscious about it for ~reasons~), my name (same as my appearance, only far moreso), my location, or any other facet of my life. It

is

, however, generally known my agerange (18-34), with more specific numbers available if you track them down but especially in the speakeasy.
...In fact, in the speakeasy (because I place trust in scummers not to abuse the knowledge they'd gain), there's a link to my blog...in which, I mention my age multiple times. (Because the link to said blog is only in the speakeasy, and said blog while implying it's me never EXPLICITLY says it's me, I consider the blog to technically be anonymous, thus, share it freely in there, as that was one of the aims.) If you're that interested in finding the answer, get speakeasy access from the user control panel, track down the thread "Mastin's Musings", find the link (iso me for it), and then archive binge 'til you find an answer. (My very first post for the blog had it, and I've done so at least once in January. It's a daily blog, you see.)

As for the "helpful hint..." what'll happen if we lynch Vettrock and he flips scum?

It's proof that, IF I were scum, I'd have powerbussed him. Which as anyone familiar with me knows (anyone reading my academy work alone would know, but I also wrote the "Stop bussing!" article for damn good reason), is...well, not

impossible

, but incredibly improbable.

Basically, if you think I'm scum with someone and I'm voting said someone, you're most likely wrong about me being scum with said someone, but said someone is very likely scum. You'd be AMAZED how many times this has held true.

And what'll happen if he flips town?

Well, then, I suck, and would offer no resistance to being lynched.

Your readlist. I'd be really, really surprised if Penguin were scum. But, the position of BBT disturbs me. You were literally raging on Day1 that he's town. Now he's the 4th scummiest player. What has changed?

eyestott flipped town, and so did dodgy. BBT isn't

low

on the readslist. It's that the other players in the game are

higher

.

[mastin2]

Heartless
copper223
Aneninen
Wickedestjr
beastcharizard
BlueBloodedToffee
killapenwin
Tean samargo
vettock

Like, Heartless is town, period.
Copper I've felt is town for multiple reasons, among them being his push on Heartless (vice-versa, too) and Heartless still being alive, general townposting, and the claim which I found to be town.
You, Anen, is like I said nearly impossible to explain, but I think you've got a fairly good grasp on why anyway.
Wicked's still QUITE town-looking to me.

All of those, rather solid.
Beast is the first read I'm not as sure on. I still

think

he is town, but I'm not ABSOLUTELY sure he is. Needless to say, I think lynching him would be a mistake, and at the very least, he should be sorted much later.

Then you get into the bottom four. BBT's been town, but isn't as town as the others are. killa's been null to me most of the game, and while I did lean slightly town, is weaker than BBT. Tean's been null basically the entire game (may or may not have fallen onto the scum side at points; I don't remember if I did or not, but if so, couldn't have been by much), and then there's vettock, who while not a strong scumread has been null or well on the wrong side of null the entire game.

Thus, vettock lynch.

[Tean Samargo]

Prod dodge, give us a tad to catch up. The other head's computer is still busted and something unexpected came up for me. Sorry about that.

[copper223]

@Mastin
Did you consider Vettrock's read on Eyestott yesterday? Why does scum Vettrock say he is sure the tracker is town?

@Vettrock
Why were you certain of your Eyestott read yesterday?

[vettrock]

Maybe this is just town self imploding and it's Tean/Beast and either Vettrock or Aneninen doing nothing.

At this stage, I GUARANTEE you vettock is scum.

Tean's an

extremely

likely candidate for being scum as well.

Ditto for a third; haven't compiled all my notes, yet.

Guarentee is a pretty strong word considering I am town. I just need to figure out if you are misguided town, or scum. You were pretty confident on dave too, except when you weren't online to unvote...if you try that two days in a row, people might get suspicous.

Also on my wagon lists with not listing everyone, i took off the three dead people as they are not potentially scum at this point.

[vettrock]

@Mastin
Did you consider Vettrock's read on Eyestott yesterday? Why does scum Vettrock say he is sure the tracker is town?

@Vettrock
Why were you certain of your Eyestott read yesterday?

It was related to the claim, and the lack of the counter claim, I think that is enough for now.

[mastin2]

@Mastin
Did you consider Vettrock's read on Eyestott yesterday? Why does scum Vettrock say he is sure the tracker is town?

...

...Words.
Failing me.

...

...Okay. Let's try this. Why

wouldn't

scum say the tracker is town? Especially if that's the scum nightkill. Think about that for a bit.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, 1111 –

"I already explained yesterday that I was giving beast and vettrock a free pass because I knew their lynches would yield close to nothing."

– Where? Can you link it?

This post;

I have noticed that people seem to be ruling out vettrock and beast for lynches today because their lynches would yield no information. I agree with this idea, I also don’t want to lynch either of them today. However, I would like to point out a key difference between the two of them. vettrock has contributed very little, but has at least made a small effort and expressed intention to develop his reads. beast has done nothing and made no promises of anything - if he lives for too long I fear that he will always continue to be an irrelevant slot. I’m fine giving vettrock more time to further develop his reads, even though I think he should be more confident at this point. I’m not fine waiting on beast - I really think that beast should be pressured after night 1, if he’s still alive. Don’t let him continue to slide under the radar.

Wicked gives me town-vibes, but sometimes I can't focus on his long posts, and it's not a good sign. (I remember doing that as scum – although, I do the same as town...)

Making long posts isn't unusual for me. And it's not my fault that you can't focus on my posts nor do I see how my long posts differ from others - I think I have made meaningful/relevant contributions. Your hesitance seems weak...

My idea was to be an easy mislynch. On day 1 scum always look for a mislynch they can push. I figured I would try to bait them into pushing me. Then if they were remotely successful I would come out the gate swingy and show that I am actually town and that the push is scum motivated and only being done because it looked easy.

Boo. It should have been clear a week before deadline that nobody was going to pursue your lynch. Yet you persisted. You effectively threw away your day 1 in exchange for an unreliable trap that was a clear early failure. I don't like it.

Beast is the first read I'm not as sure on. I still think he is town, but I'm not ABSOLUTELY sure he is. Needless to say, I think lynching him would be a mistake, and at the very least, he should be sorted much later.

Sorted much later? I would like to point out that it's mylo or lylo tomorrow if we don't get mafia today. Sure, even if he's scum, there are others to catch, but I really don't think he should be given any more time than he's already been given. If he's scum and survives without actually doing anything just because of his foolish 'trap attempt' and 'town meta that is easy to fake', then I would be disappointed.


I'll try to guess the scum team later this weekend.

[Jackal711]

VOTE COUNT 2.2

killapenwin (1) - Heartless
BlueBloodedToffee (0) -
Heartless (0) -
copper223 (0) -
vettrock (1) - BlueBloodedToffee
Aneninen (0) -
Wickedestjr (0) -
beastcharizard (2) - killapenwin, Wickedestjr
Tean Samargo (0) -
mastin2 (1) - copper223

Not Voting: vettrock, Aneninen, beastcharizard, Tean Samargo, mastin2

With 10 alive, it's 6 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is Tuesday, February 3rd at 10:30 pm PST which is in (expired on 2015-02-03 22:30:00)

[copper223]

@Mastin
It would be really bad to give as the only town in your list the guy who claimed, as scum, that is a red arrow pointing at you that you knew his claim was legit thanks to prior information on the slot, it doesn't even buy you towncred, I think you are being disingenuous here so the vote can stay.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

1148 - Mastin, here you guarantee that Vettrock is scum.

and then there's vettock, who while not a strong scumread has been null or well on the wrong side of null the entire game.

Then you said this...what's up with that?

Can you explain your Anen town-read as well?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I've never been able to establish a firm read on BBT, check my posts. Or I misremember something now. It's late here. On the other hand, why would I fake my gameplay just because of you? You know, I've met quite a couple of players before in different games.
(Or, it's also possible that I've been unable to interpret your post at all.)

When I was talking about this post Anen, I was making reference to the way you're trying to not be held accountable for things you say. For example, you say you've never been able to get a read on me, then you say, or maybe I'm misremembering which I interpret as 'I might be wrong on that, and if I am, well you can't scum-read me for it because I already said I could be wrong.'

Aneninen - null - gut says town, but slight issues prevent me from fully town reading

Still waiting on this...

Is Copper scummy for being on the wagon or not? Your 'analysis' of him is pretty fluffy. You're scum-reading Mastin...someone whose read you trusted enough to believe I was town is now scum...Nah, this doesn't make sense. Explain.

You missed this one Anen.

[Heartless]

@Mastin
Did you consider Vettrock's read on Eyestott yesterday? Why does scum Vettrock say he is sure the tracker is town?

...

...Words.
Failing me.

...

...Okay. Let's try this. Why

wouldn't

scum say the tracker is town? Especially if that's the scum nightkill. Think about that for a bit.

I have an alternate theory about this. Needless to say, I think your vote is ill-placed.

I'm still forming the working theory, hopefully I'll have it written up sometime today but I can make no guarantees as my attention is focused in a few other places, most notably on this irritating and poorly written lab protocol I somehow have to pull half the steps out of my ass for.

In the meantime, I'll give Anti a nudge as I'm sure he's got some ideas by now.

[beastcharizard]

My idea was to be an easy mislynch. On day 1 scum always look for a mislynch they can push. I figured I would try to bait them into pushing me. Then if they were remotely successful I would come out the gate swingy and show that I am actually town and that the push is scum motivated and only being done because it looked easy.

This is just awful strategy: look scummy as hell, provide no reads, then OMGUS the person voting you? Just awful.

This must be your first time playing with me. I get less annoying with time.

Heartless is scum. They remind me of a game I read. I will have to find a link to it later because the name escapes me. It was an open game though and they were the SK I believe. They def were not town.

[copper223]

Open 573

[Heartless]

Heartless is scum. They remind me of a game I read. I will have to find a link to it later because the name escapes me. It was an open game though and they were the SK I believe. They def were not town.

you mean the one where we played like a vig until the 3 man lylo? c9++? that one?

dude, you don't even read the games you're in. i have a hard time believing you actually read that game.

[Heartless]

Heartless
copper223
Aneninen
Wickedestjr
beastcharizard
BlueBloodedToffee
killapenwin
Tean samargo
vettock

Town to scum. Doesn't necessarily mean that vettock-tean-killa's the scumteam, but should give you a fair approximation of things right now.

lol well tth is already townreading vettock so i think she'll have a few issues w/ this list

/ugh i'm in sad sack mode right now...

help
me

[killapenwin]

1164

I don't give a monkeys about

other

games and I am certainly not going to trudge through them, especially given that no direct comparison is able to be made. This game dynamic is not known and the player list is certainly different, not that any of the players here would necessarily have the same role as the match you are on about.

This statement just seems like another cheap fob off for not scum hunting and worse still you couldn't even be bothered to link 'said' game, why would I find your argument credible or relevant when you are too lazy to even cite the source you get your 'reading' from?

@all: Why are you not voting beast right now? BBT is the only one who has answered.

[Aneninen]

Mastin, 1151 – as for your age, that answered my question. I had a tiny idea about your posting style, but you're most probably not in the age range for my idea.
Also, it's a coincidence but I think I had read your article about bussing before we met ingame. There are many good thoughts in it, although it doesn't proove in itself that you would never bus as scum...
This:

"Well, then, I suck, and would offer no resistance to being lynched."

made me think... I'm checking your ISO after this post.

Like, Heartless is town, period.¹
Copper I've felt is town for multiple reasons, among them being his push on Heartless (vice-versa, too) and Heartless still being alive, general townposting, and the claim which I found to be town.²
You, Anen, is like I said nearly impossible to explain, but I think you've got a fairly good grasp on why anyway.³
Wicked's still QUITE town-looking to me.⁴
All of those, rather solid.
Beast is the first read I'm not as sure on. I still

think

he is town, but I'm not ABSOLUTELY sure he is. Needless to say, I think lynching him would be a mistake, and at the very least, he should be sorted much later.⁵
Then you get into the bottom four. BBT's been town, but isn't as town as the others are.⁶ killa's been null to me most of the game, and while I did lean slightly town, is weaker than BBT.⁷ Tean's been null basically the entire game (may or may not have fallen onto the scum side at points; I don't remember if I did or not, but if so, couldn't have been by much)⁸, and then there's vettock, who while not a strong scumread has been null or well on the wrong side of null the entire game.⁹
Thus, vettock lynch.

(1) I'm way not sure about them, but they're not a priority right now.
(2) I don't care about Copper right now because we'd lose too much if we lynched him Today, assuming his claim is real.
(3) Lol, I see your point ^_^
(4) I have a similar read on him.
(5) ...well, see below in this post!
(6) Either I'm an idiot or Penguin is town.
(7) The more I read BBT the surer I am that he's town. I know it was only one game we met in, but this BBT is the same one I know.
(8) Tean is doing "such a nothing" that sometimes I almost forget how scummy his early-Day1 was. But... only "almost"!
(9) So... he's "not a strong scumread" now but you wrote "I GUARANTEE you vettock is scum." in 1148 ...what has changed? (Side-note: it's also strange that Vettrock didn't point this out eg. in 1155.)

Vettrock, 1155 –

"You were pretty confident on dave too, except when you weren't online to unvote...

if you try that two days in a row, people might get suspicous.

"

– ick? Was he trying to warn Mastin?!?
Also, you left out Penguin from your wagon-list. Why?

Wicked, 1158 – your answer (954) is noted, I must have missed it. However, we should remember that post if Vettrock flips scum.

BBT, 1161 – And YES, he found the same thing! For me, BBT is pretty much obv-town from now.

When I was talking about this post Anen, I was making reference to the way you're trying to not be held accountable for things you say. For example, you say you've never been able to get a read on me, then you say, or maybe I'm misremembering which I interpret as 'I might be wrong on that, and if I am, well you can't scum-read me for it because I already said I could be wrong.'

I still don't know what should I answer. Your interpretation

is

a possible interpretation. However, I don't think it would be useful if I told that I'm sure about something if I'm not.
(Side-note. Do you remember our game? You were attacking me partly because I wrote that "I'm sure" about someone's alignment...)

Is Copper scummy for being on the wagon or not? Your 'analysis' of him is pretty fluffy. You're scum-reading Mastin...someone whose read you trusted enough to believe I was town is now scum...Nah, this doesn't make sense. Explain.

I've already written that I don't care about Copper

Today

, because lynching him would be bad.
By the way, I didn't scumread Mastin there, check it out, it was an "either... or..." sentence. However, I'll ISO Mastin soon. Partly because of the wagons, partly for other reasons.

Heartless is scum. They remind me of a game I read. I will have to find a link to it later because the name escapes me. It was an open game though and they were the SK I believe. They def were not town.

Uhhh, NO.
Do I understand it right? They were SK in Open 573 -> they're similar here -> they're scum, because of the similarity SK here.
I'm 95% sure that they're NOT SK. I was in that game, I was scum and I knew from Day2 that they were SK. While I was reading their posts I knew their alignment. (Even if I thought they were WIFOMizing by no Kills, f-ck off, we targetted the same player twice!) Their posts here are VERY far from that game. (They may be Mafia, of course.)

Why am I telling this?
Let's see Beast. A couple of null-looking things, eg. 192, 273, 290, 294. In 532

"I could get behind an eyesott lynch."

, in 844

" Also, this type of game is solely my town style of game as it makes me a huge target for a lynch or Vig kill."

is pigeon poop. Sheeping vote for Davesaz in 932. The whole 948 is pigeon poop (explaining that "early-game lurking is a death sentence" from him???) 1143 is WTF.

Adding all these things together, I've got a feeling that Beast is SK. (Post-edit: KillaPenguin, as an answer for your latest post, read this too. What are you thinking about Beast now?)

[Aneninen]

Mastin-mix.
(Because of the sheer amount of content I only mention the "highlights" of her posts.)

Spoiler:

Until 64 not too much real content.

In 121 she tells that Davesaz is scum (her vote was on him before), she repeats it in 154. Apart from

"davesaz is throwing just about every newbscum tell in the book"

(in the latter post) there was no case provided. In 155 she talks about "reaction testing" which mmmight be okay, but isn't it strange that (1) according to her test Davesaz is scumread by her and (2) her vote was on him before...?

201, about Wicked:

"At this point, even if he's scum he's still town because dammit, he's just so damn town in his recent posting."

– we should remember this if either of them flips scum.

202 – talking about a second scumread without revealing it right now. It gets revealed in 284: Heartless, for inactivity.

432 – readlist. Possible scums are Davesaz, Heartless, Eyestott, Dodgy. (Lol, three of those players are dead now...) Everyone else was town there, weak or strong. The beast read evolves into a "f-cking dealwithit" defense by 445.

Voting for Eyestott in 448. (Also remember, she was both on the Eyestott and the Davesaz wagon.)

In 509 and around it seems that she "stabilizes" her scumreads on the wagoned players.

In 673, she votes for Davesaz again, although she doesn't buy Eyestott's claim.

In 674 she starts prodecting BBT.

As far as I can see, the Vettrock scumread appears in 678 for the first time.

938 is a good post about Copper. (A shorter and more readable version of my later post-parts about Copper)

941 now the scumreads are Tean/Vettrock/Eyestott/Davesaz

As for 1082

"Dave, I was gone during the last day of deadline yesterday. But had I not been...I'd have unvoted."

– I've just checked it. It seems that she wasn't active site-wide at that time. So, this part from her may be real. Votes for Vettrock here.

And I've already talked about her latest posts (in differenet posts from me.)

Summary. I think I realized my problem with Mastin. Her reads are changing very quickly and they're moving on a very, very wide scale. I bet she has quite a few "playstyles" (and she knows, I think, why I'm saying this.)
But, before sorting her, I must ask something.

Mastin! How sure are you about your Vettrock read? Plus, if you had to lynch anyone but Vettrock Today, whom would you choose and why?

[mastin2]

@Mastin
It would be really bad to give as the only town in your list the guy who claimed, as scum, that is a red arrow pointing at you that you knew his claim was legit thanks to prior information on the slot, it doesn't even buy you towncred, I think you are being disingenuous here so the vote can stay.

100%.
Telling you as a damn IC.
Ask any experienced player their opinion.

You'll find maybe 1-2 outliers of every 10 or so that will say otherwise (but in their say of otherwise, only about 33-50% would do so in the same way you do), but the VAST majority of people will tell you, rather simply...scum don't like to throw themselves into conflict. They prefer townVtown fights. They prefer

not

to butt heads with town PRs...because that encourages said town PRs to INVESTIGATE THEM. Or shoot them. Or

not

protect them when protecting them can save their lives and protecting them automatically means less a chance of the scum's own nightkill failing. If the scum antagonize the town PR, then all of this bad stuff happens.

What happens if the scum, then, instead buddy-buddy the town PR, believing them 100%?
They don't get investigated, the town who are suspicious of the player get investigated instead, townVtown fights ensue, scum can watch them, laugh at them, let them thrive, safe from vigging (because town're likely to get vigged), and in a position where they're likely to be protected.

It's scumplay 101.

[mastin2]

Mod: I voted vettock in one of my first posts today.

Found it, got overlooked somehow. Will be fixed in next VC.

1148 - Mastin, here you guarantee that Vettrock is scum.

and then there's vettock, who while not a strong scumread has been null or well on the wrong side of null the entire game.

Then you said this...what's up with that?

At this point, "not a strong scumread yet null or well on the wrong side of null the entire game"

is

a guarantee of being scum, ESPECIALLY given the town players: Heartless is town, Anen is town, copper's pretty dang town, and Wicked's town. That,

alone

, limits the options quite a lot. For vettock to be town and you to also be town would require a beast/killa/Tean scumteam, which while I suppose not impossible feels incredibly improbable.

Ergo, vettock is scum.

Can you explain your Anen town-read as well?

Unfortunately not. I just...really, really, REALLY think this is Anen's towngame, not Anen's scumgame.

[mastin2]

/ugh i'm in sad sack mode right now...

help
me

Anti, get yer ass in the game. I trust you to work well with TTH, but no offense meant to TTH, I simply don't trust TTH to get the game solved by herself. Especially since she isn't working with me like she could be, whereas you always do. I don't expect you to take center stage and override her (unless she's scumreading me, in which case, yes I do ), but you SHOULD be in here helping me.

Because I could actually use feedback. My readslist is

not

perfect. I can feel it isn't. And there's no player here I trust more to be able to help refine it than you.

[mastin2]

Summary. I think I realized my problem with Mastin. Her reads are changing very quickly and they're moving on a very, very wide scale.

Helpful hint, you have absolutely no reason to trust me on this right now, but this is a MASSIVE towntell for me. On the "how to read Mastin: the flowchart" I made (I need to track down the most up-to-date version), it's one of the primary items, in fact. The reason? Town Mastin doesn't have a clue what's going on. Her reads are in a state of constant flux, specifically because of that, and her own self-doubt, paranoia, and whatnot betrays her, as she constantly second-guesses herself and reevaluates, rethinks, and redoes stuff. In contrast, scuMastin has absolute control of the game. Whereas town-Mastin is defined by inconsistency, scuMastin is defined by consistent, solid, controlled, calculated play. She keeps the same reads as much as possible, because it serves to antagonize the least number of players. She is calm, collected, and cool. She is strategic. She is focused. Her thoughts are logical and precise, because she has a good handle on the game, and thus, her mind does not betray her.

Or in short, the difference between town and scum is the difference between chaos and order. Now, obviously, this isn't absolute. There have been towngames where I've felt in control, rare as they may be. There have been scumgames where I was chaotic, either by circumstances or in one or two cases me faking my town chaos convincingly. But it IS a fairly solid general guideline. I know what I'm doing as scum; I'm just taking my best guess and throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks as town.

I bet she has quite a few "playstyles" (and she knows, I think, why I'm saying this.)

Indeed I do. Fairly certain I said so already in this game, too, the reason why: because my play in games is fluid, thanks to situational awareness. While I might not know what's going on as town, I can generally feel out the game and have an idea for what will work best, adapting to have a playstyle specific to that game. It's mildly helpful, since it lets me hone in on scum better, but situational awareness mostly helps me as scum, because as scum, adapting my play to the game when I have more info than my town self does is

lethally

effective.

Anti can verify everything I'm saying here, and TTH to some extent can verify most of it given the differences between the Voided games in spite of me being town in both. Not sure if anyone else has the experience to do so. Beast has played a lot of games with me, but I'm not sure the knowledge of me has seeped in. Wicked I know has tried to seep in the knowledge of me, but I don't think he has the experience.

Mastin! How sure are you about your Vettrock read? Plus, if you had to lynch anyone but Vettrock Today, whom would you choose and why?

I'm a good 90% certain about vettock: not

absolute

, but pretty damn confident.
If not Vettock, I can easily say Tean would be my lynch.

Either of BBT/killa could be scum at this point, and beast theoretically could be even if I think otherwise, but Tean and vettock are the only two that I'm actually ~suspicious~ of.