Mini 470 - Some Guys Are Trying To Kill You (done)

[Oman]

OMGUS/Momentum Vote: Gatorguy91

must be scum again

[Oman]

Sorry guys I got a three day absense coming up (computer 'sploded and I can't get to publics for the next 3 days - car 'sploded)

Please don't replace me I'll be back.

[Oman]

Vote: Soupfly

I'm back, and I have the philosophy of jumping on the earliest scummy thing i see (Romanus taught me that ) so soupfly gets my attention. You were way to upset about the cop kill, a cop wouldn't have been that much help, he has a 3/12 or 4/12 chance of hitting scum and a 1/9 or 1/8 chance of being NKed night 0(wait...how many scum are in here, do we know?)

[Oman]

Okay, we have 6 to lynch, vote 4 does nothing other then pressure. however, you responded to that in a very protown way.

UNVOTE

This game is about pressure and how people respond to it. You had quite a pro-town response, not explosive, not aggresive.

Also, chances that bad guy was investigated night 0 and cop killed are 3/12 * 1/9 which is 0.0277 (four dec. places) Day one a cop can only confirm a townie, and they wouldn't claim for an innocent (or probably a guilty) as they'd be NKed night 1.

Vote #4 is extremely town friendly, bandwagons only HELP the town and the sooner we have real discussion instead of stupid random vote the better.

[Oman]

EBWOP: Happy scumday

[Oman]

Vote: Gatorguy

I'd like to hear a little more from you especially in defence of soup's attack on you.

[Oman]

Indeed, well pressure no longer needed

Unvote

and in fact I think it's a decent meta argument

I don't think it was a decent meta argument at all, I think it was an early attack to root out scum. Meta arguments on page 1-4 don't work to well. Especially with more then 10 people.

[Oman]

Also gator can you explain this:

FoS: Soupfly for having a dumb reason for a legitimate vote.

What do you mean by "a legitimate vote"? That soup's vote against you was legitimate, as in, you are scummy?

[Oman]

ah i see Gator, thanks for that.

and quite frankly i don't know why i have to keep justifying this. i'm not casting the deciding vote nor am i trying to convince anybody that gator is guilty

Firstly, you should have to defend every action you make, and you should have a defence for it if you’re town. Trying to get out of the spotlight by claiming that you were not doing anything (i.e. “not casting the deciding vote” or “trying to convince anybody”) looks scummy. Town are ALWAYS doing something, or, should be.

Also, you unvote Gatorguy right after this, as in “I’m not trying to convince anybody, otherwise I would have voted him....uh I mean Unvote” (Note to all: He didn’t really say that, it’s my dramatic interpretation of his speech)

if i were mafia

stupid phrase...really stupid. Aside from the whole WIFOM argument, it’s also pointless.

incidentally the cop investigated a bad guy but got killed before he could play

Did I miss this somewhere?

mod

vote count please. Thank you.

[Oman]

how many mafia are there in this game? My first mini

[Oman]

THIS is why I play this game

Soup is right, in this game there is no evidence, even a cop with a guilty could still be lying (both on cop and on guilty fronts).

Soupfly, I think you're giving yourself too much credit which is why you look scummy, you're trying to look "Too-Townie" either to discuise your scumminess or to make yourself look really good as a townie. This is prominent in the "meta-gaming yourself" issue and a few others about you not lurking when others are and about you trying to start discussion etc.

I've not yet lynched for being "Too-Townie" so I'll wait a while to see

FoS: Soupfly

[Oman]

Right, well its a moot point, if he'd investigated a godfather he would've gotten innocent, same as townie, so

incidentally the cop investigated a bad guy but got killed before he could play

wouldn't count there as a Godfather result = townie result.

WIFOM is a tactic, but its quite a stupid one. Its usually fine in a tight spot when all else fails, but its not a good idea to start with (like metagaming).

[Oman]

Ohhh. i like that Ero.

Vote Langley

Ve HAve Vays of Making You Talk

[Oman]

Well...I'd say putting him at -3 wouldn't be terrible, but I like your cautiousness. Hopefully two votes out of six will be enough to make him talk some.

[Oman]

Soup, most games don't start for 5-7 days (well over that for Newbie games) Its almost a week in line, wait for mod, random votes, a good 1.5-2 weeks before a game starts.

Anyway, I don't think he made feeble attempts, I think they were feeble accusations (questioning his absence is strange). You're a little too eager to get Gator in trouble.

Unvote: whoever the hell it was. Vote: Soupfly

[Oman]

I did watch my words there, I didn't say eager to lynch, I said eager to GET IN TROUBLE, I.e. you want the heat on him.

My votes are designed to put pressure on people for the first 2-3 pages, then it gets serious. It works extremely well the smaller the game is (one vote in a normal matters not). Also, if one vote goes on someone they can shrug it off, a scum member will get overly defensive.

[Oman]

Okay, I have a feeling Jenter is scum, either protecting scum soupfly or befriending townie soupfly. Either way

IGMEOY: Jenter Brolincani

[Oman]

sorry I was only doing a quick read this morning (late for work) I'll do the stuff I missed now.

1. Soup, you're right, I was a hypocrit, I guess its just that I thought my pressure was town and yours looked scum, made me think you were just attempting a lynch. I see now.

2.

Unvote

I was a hypocrit there.

3. Jenter, I will explain it. I didn't think the accusations on Gator were founded on anything, I saw the accusations as scummy because of that, thus I assumed him town, based on the

hypothetical assumption

that soup was scum (note the emphasis).

4. Jenter, you also have a CONSTANT defence of Soupfly, care to explain it?

5. Mainly I'm defending Gator cause I've played with him when he was scum (subconscious metagaming) and this didn't smell the same.

6.

IGMEOY: Langley

You're slight check in with no defence or explaination doesn't sit right.

[Oman]

EBWOP: I agree that a gator lynch would tell us a lot, but i suggest it as last option. A lynch this early is not good for the town.

[Oman]

You made me do this, I didn't want to, but now I have to ( a whole 4 pages of re-read!)

I see soup's reasoning on this...

FoS; Gator for not defending himself properly and just calling fly's question dumb.

Just because you don't like style doesn't mean it deserves a vote.

Gator's lurking in plain sight, he's posting no content at all (OK, i'm not either and I'm sorry about that)

Every one of your posts are there minus the godfather one. And every one of them is defending soupfly in some way. I'd call the first a direct defence. The last is probably the only one where you didn't mention him but you still were attacking the person he was...(for want of a better word) investigating at the beginning.

[Oman]

Just realised I never answered this (how rude of me)

@oman, why you defending him? i thought you were for putting pressure on people and seeing how they respond. why not just let him answer my accusations (even if they are feeble as you claim) and take it from there.

You're right. But I was defending him because at the time you looked scummy and I was afraid of a mislynch this early.

town has nothing to lose by getting people to post. and what exactly do you mean by me trying to

"get Gator in trouble...i.e. you want the heat on him"?

I mean that you want everyone to be focusing on him (is he scum, isn't he, oh I don't know), because, as above, at the time you were scummy to me.

isn't that the whole point of what we're doing here? on the one hand you say that you like to put pressure on people on pages 2-3 and then you come out and vote against me for doing the same to gator. not really sure I follow you reasoning here.

My reasoning is simple, I was being an arse. I shouldn't have voted against you, maybe talked to you, but not voted. The problem is I see talk as cheap, especially in this game, but if I keep throwing my votes around they too will become cheap.

Sorry for the delay Soupman

[Oman]

Nah you didn't look like you were overdefending, just defending

I accept that you were trying to prevent a quicklynch without discussion, but I need to give you extra commendation on the term "random cobblers". Hell, I'd let you live just for that!

Who do you think looks scummy now Jenter?

[Oman]

Soup, I've got to dash to wrk now, but this afternoon (for me) I'll post the differences and similarities.

[Oman]

Gatorguy Metagaming

Same:

Begins with a jokey Random vote.
Ergo: “It's interesting that Gatorguy just unvoted as soon as he came under a little bit of pressure.” Gator did that in the previous game too.

Different:

Lurked heavily on the other, like...didn’t post.
Had 0, seriously zero, content in his posts other game. Post 45 was rather heavy in content for him.
VisMajor said it well “he does what I call "nonissueposting and agreeposting" Basically he either posts only to say nothing, or to say how much he agrees with other people.”
Didn’t even attempt to defend himself, said he wasn’t interested in doing it.

Note:

This is metagaming, its soooo not definative.

[Oman]

EBWOP: That post wasn't erg0 it was Ero...sorry.

[Oman]

I was asked to, and thats why I put the footnote.

[Oman]

I say we lynch some inactives (I agree if they're town, its a bad idea, but we're likely to mislynch day 1 anyway) Take out some useless baggage and get this down to the good stuff. What do we get, three mislynches before we're put at LyLo (assuming no doc saves or vig kills). I say we waste one on Day 1 removing an inactive, but not right now, discussion is vital.

Ero, you've put a good point there, but I don't think it will be that same side for the rest of the game. I'll be using this post as a reference point to see who always falls on the same side of debates (That is, say Erg0 and Niv are always together and close chronologically, thus they could be scum [hypothetical, not real] )

[Oman]

You find me scummy beacuse I suggest if this goes nowhere we lose a lurker?

Okay Streeflo, give me you're idea, I'd like to see how you'd deal with a situation like this, many players away making it very hard to analyse anything.

[Oman]

Hey Streeflo, firstly we get three mislynches before we're even close to LyLo. Secondly, I don't want to lynch anyone yet, D1 discussion is important, and if you lynch we enter a large night phase which gives a) a halt to conversation b) scum a chance to talk.

Like I said, if this game goes nowhere. I'd like to look more at some of the early bandwagoning as a group and see what we can get from there.

[Oman]

Hold on, Niv and I have a different Idea on lurking. I'm talking about the type that just read and dont comment but as soon as their name is mentioned they jump in. I hate it, personally.

What am I at now 3? I do expect a chance to defend myself if i get put at -2.

Right now, I'm not worrying about your votes, you're against one of my theories and thats fine with me, what I am worried about is the scum. Erg0 bandwagoned onto me just then, but its the first even remotely scummy thing he's done all game, so right now I'm thinking town.

He was the second on the Soupfly wagon, but I don't think scum would jump a wagon that early.

I'd like to say Niv is attempting to start wagons on people, but I don't think I have enough to start that accusation either. His votes don't seem to be encouraging others at all, they seem to be looking at people individually.

Zakk and Langley are both on my list because of long absences followed by sentence long replies and votes. Erg0 comments that Zakk's vote was "oddly timed" I agree, also (as Erg0 said) the Soupfly thing has been and gone, and yet he still puts the vote down, a late jump on a dieing wagon.

Jenter is still high on my list, for the same reasons I said above (post 81)

[Oman]

Soup is right, it is to early (which I'd said earlier in my defence) to lynch anyone. I'd like everyone to say who they think is scummy and why.

[Oman]

I agree completely Soup, thats why i wasn't big on defending myself, it was just my turn.

Casual posters...hmmm erg0, streeflo (lately), Niv's pretty heavy in posting. Not sure if there's others.

BTW: Completly retracting my statement on lynching lurkers (it was more pressure to get responses from them, but it didn't turn out well)

[Oman]

Niv has actually been on the wagons before gator each game, so that doesn't really fly with me.

[Oman]

Niv has actually been on the wagons before gator each game, so that doesn't really fly with me.

I'm sorry this is what I get for not previewing my posts. This wasn't a Jenter quote, I meant to quote her first. The quoted line is actually my own.

[Oman]

Langley and zakk have been urged to increase their posting. Refusal will bring replacement.

Thank you Maz.

Oman's eagerness to lynch a random lurker is obviously a cause for suspicion, as is his quick reversal when he saw it wasn't going to work.

I'm not eager, I don't understand why that adjective is used. I suggested it as an avenue.

And yes I reversed when I saw it wasn't going to work, the idea of it was acutally to get 1 or two along with me and the inactives jump out in defence quickly, starting them up posting. When I saw that people saw it less as a tactic to increase posting and more as a scumtell I abandoned the idea.

I'd like to look closer at Langley and Zakk, Maz has urged them so I guess a vote or FoS wouldn't add anything of value. When they come I want to hear why they haven't given any reasons for votes or questions to players yet.

[Oman]

Soup, I was defending Gator early cause he wasn't well....good at defending himself, and I didn't think what he did was bad. Now I don't think your scummy atm, but I have no idea on Gator's affiliation, he hasn't been "with" anyone this game (except maybe me).

I think Thai's right that he didn't get overlybandwagony in these first pages. I too thought Thai was just jumping on and off wagons with the majority but this

This is my third game, and both of my first two involved very fast Day 1 lynchings of townies, so I'm a bit cautious about that kind of thing. Yes, soup was down to -3 my the time I unvoted, but I didn't catch that

put me at ease.

Nothing really new for Soupfly, but he does bring up the point that Jenter agreeed with him. I'm thinking at the moment if one of them is scum the other is town, but they could both be town.

Sigh, need more.

[Oman]

Thai I was refering more to your jumping off bandwagons that I found messy at first. Who you voted for was fine, it was when you jumped off that I had an issue with, but its easly explained by being cautious.

[Oman]

The interesting thing about Gators post is it resembles the format of my nightly scum lists (for and againsts for everyone). I, too, feel like its something he's gleamed to make himself

seem

townie

[Oman]

Town idea: Always lynch the VI, but he seems to try to keep the VI around. Hmmm....

Stupid idea, to delibratly mislynch just because they're not much help.

Question(s):
Do You

really

think it's scummy that i stole your format?

No, I was just playing with ya.

So was I.

I sware I'm the VI.

Not sure if thats a good claim to make...I mean, regardless of truth its kinda...self-loathing.

Anyway I agree with Jenter that 5/9 is not good odds, but I do question something.

when you only have 2 scum.

I thought we had three. 10 v. 2 are not good odds, if you count N0 as a kill thats 9 v 2. I'd be more swayed to say its 8v3. If we only have two scum, then we get 4 mislynchs, assuming no doc saves. Thats a good rate for town. With three scum we only get three. I agree that a lynch of Gator would be better then say erg0 or Langly, but I'd like to see D1 go longer.

[Oman]

EBWOP: I read the VI thread in Mafia Discussion, and I actually agree with your lynch the VI statement now. We've got 3 (four?) mislynches, and if you're scum, well yippee!
I don't intend this to be a quicklynch guys, so can we talk a bit first?

Vote: Gator

[Oman]

I think the claim of VI is scummy in itself, firstly cause its WIFOM and secondly, cause it's a poor excuse for poor behaviour. Allowing someone to claim it and live is sort of encouraging the behaviour.

[Oman]

I don't think so, VI's usually end up lynched. Though its a stupid claim as a last ditch effort to avoid being lynched as scum.

[Oman]

Newbie games are rife with them. Its hard to seperate the idiots from the scum. Gator sorta claimed the same thing last game, we lynched and he was scum.

[Oman]

Agree on not lynching until we hear from the others

Unvote

if I was.

[Oman]

Yeah, when we said Claim we obviously didn't mean you actually had a role VI.

Imagine that: You are the VI, post really stupid things and look scummy. You win with the town. I love it.

Don't claim right now, there is no point. You've got 2 on you which is -4, no pressure atm.

[Oman]

Whats bad about it? That after Gator claims VI I vote for him. The reason I did that is he made exactly the same claim when I played with him earlier (I don't like to metagame, but this is involuntary). To say that you're either useless or scum is bad mojo. The only thing I can see that explains that, Niv, is that you're saying Gator has given me the okay to bus him....(??)

[Oman]

Streeflo, why get replaced out? It ruins the point of playing, we want players to get better, not get outta here.

Gator's on his second game and he's 14, its remarkably unfair to tell him to replace out!

I want to vote for you, but it will be in anger, so I'll hold back.

FoS and FoA Streeflo

Finger of Anger upon you.

[Oman]

I made those comments at two different points in the game. Gator's actions changed in that time, thus his behaviour in relation to the other game changed.

I understand the seeming inconsistency, if you leave out the change in Gator's movements. But can we stop this shitty metagaming, as someone said earlier, its his second game, its usesless, and I see that now. Looking back over his actions and all the metagaming stuff, its quite pointless.

[Oman]

you can't subconsciously do something and then post that you're doing it subconsciously...that's also a contradiction.

I agree with you here, except I don't really understand this part.

Regardless,

Agree on not lynching until we hear from the others Unvote if I was.

I havent been voting for Gator in ages. I "saw the error of my ways".

[Oman]

What about sacrificiing a townie to learn something about others, like Jenter is saying? Of course, if he turns up town Jenter looks bad for pushing for it. Oh, the irony.

[Oman]

plus you lose the townie's vote, obviously.

A fantastic point. Even if Gator is as bad as he says he is (which I don't beleive, FTR, I think he's new and thats it) we can still sway him to be a vote for us.

[Oman]

Jimmy, I don't think Gator gets a free pass to Day 2. If he does something scummy I'm going to look at him like I would anyone.

[Oman]

oh...Care to share. I've been looking at Jenter (lingering eye from earlier) and he's been quiet of late, so not much. But I would like to hear your Streeflo ideas as well as Jenter ideas.

[Oman]

Streeflo is getting a bit aggressive in the defences against him. They are just vague ideas at the moment but he's throwing up all barracades and italics.

[Oman]

What are you being accused of that you don't think you did? Can you reference me the post number in which you were accused please?

[Oman]

Exactly where has this happened? Can you reference it please, because I have done no such thing. Nor have I ever remotely suggested to lynch someone to "get more info".

In fact Streeflo was quite against lynching for more info. When I wanted to lynch a lurker (I know now that its not a good thing) he was quite against it, voting against me for it.

I did not say zakk was probably town. I said he reeked of opportunistic scum. I'd say there is a difference.

No-one has yet said that zakk/Haut was probably town, so its not even a case of misquoting the author.

Hey~<3 Just got finished reading through.

Oman: I think Streeflo was being accused of being eager to jump onto my predecessor when he had said that I/zakk was probably town. And the one thing wrong with that is that prior to voting for zakk, he never mentioned him. FoS: Jimmy R

I still have weird feelings about soupfly and Jenter. Gator seems to have been dropping off the radar, though I'll look back again just to make sure. TBS seems fairly fine to me, and I'm well on Oman. So other than Jimmy R, soupfly and Jenter have my highest suspiscion.

Gator has dropped off the Radar, but theres no real heat on himself, he defended against the votes on him and the only real lingering one is Jenter so I don't expect him to be yelling about that.

I too would like to

put an eye on Jimmy R

for the misquoting of Streeflo. It could be innocent, but it could also be scummy.

Jenter is still high in my book (nothing new really, same as earlier). I'm not as sure on TBS are you are.

As for the whole "holding you responsible for predecessor" thing, if you do something scummy, it will compound with anything Zakk did (or didn't) do. Its a shame but he was acting with the same role that you have, so his actions would have been influenced by it somewhat. But for now, you look town to me

[Oman]

Firstly, Niv. I use ctrl+c ctrl+v and just copy paste the quote tags and write between them.

Secondly, reading what Niv wrote I'm seeing some new things. I've been on Jenter for a while so this is no tag along thing, but I do trust Niv as a townie, so

Vote: Jenter

In anticipatory defence, yes I was influenced by Niv's post, isn't that the point. No I am not jumping on a wagon, if you re-read my posts I've been eyeing Jenter for a while. Niv has sort of made it all clear and in one spot (love PBPAs).

[Oman]

Is that only two on Jenter now?

[Oman]

Sure would.

With six to lynch, is there any reason why you'd be hesitant in your voting Jimmy? L-3 is not an end-game decision.

[Oman]

I agree with Jimmy, that was a terrible attempt to deflect.

Yes, a -2 I'd like to hear something a little more substantial from Jenter now.

[Oman]

I made this comment earlier, about reluctance to put on a third vote. I'm not sure if it is a town move or a scum move.

[Oman]

I don't think his reluctance was an overly town move. By which I mean, his interest was to not make a mistake and look scummy, which isn't scummy nor town in itself. I think this will be a neutral mark in my book.

[Oman]

Ah but Jimmy, this is where it gets terrible. A scum is much more likely to FoS then vote and then claim the moral high ground of "I don't want a quicklynch". As I said, I don't think that action was scummy from you, neutral is as good as it gets.

Also

we can't afford to be lynching

another

townie at this point

Another?

[Oman]

Sure was

[Oman]

Firstly, threatening to claim is a scummy look. Its like daring us to push you.

NO

I'm not sure enough to ask for a claim.

I loved your large post, but can I ask you: Who is it you think is the scum pair/trio? Are there any mutally exclusive (I.e. if x is scum then y is town)?

I'll re-read your post again.

[Oman]

Do you want me to claim? I will if that is actually what you want.

Threatening to claim. To threaten the town isn't a good thing.

1 vote is not the start of a bandwagon, it was probabaly just a bit of pressure.

One vote is the start of a bandwagon, it has to be, theres nothing else to start a bandwagon effectivly.

When you think about it, 1 post is the start of the bandwagon, and a lynch.

This is notable and possibly the best reason for NOT looking at a Gator-Niv pair. It's textbook though, and could well be distancing

I don't often trust the claimed VI (still shocking turn of events there) to distance.

a LOT of vbery good players use WIFOM a lot...

WIFOM sucks and any good player that uses it needs to look at their playstyle a lot. WIFOM is pointless.

No reason, just an agressive contentless response to soup and a lack of content after being pressured.

Agreed, its a real lack of content in that post, but it looks rather OMGUS-y.

This could be poor town, but it could be scum trying to slip under the net...

This is the real theory discussion here.

also notable that Niv is still attacking Soup at this point...

I don't see scum trying this hard on one player, its just doesn't have the return on investment.

Niv accepts soups argument, (poosibly) realises the soup wagon is deteriorating, and attacks me for hypocracy,

This is a bit too much speculation for me. I don't mind it a bit. But I wouldn't use this as an argument against Niv. Any player that only just then notices the Soup wagon

*

isn't gaining support isn't paying as much attention as Niv is.

Argument jumping anyone? Gator attatches himself to Niv's argument here.

There's also the possibility that Niv just outlined it for him

Oman bandwagon begins on the grounds of his 'lynch lurkjers' comment.

Is there a point here? Is it relevant to your argument.

interesting that he chose Zakk here - one of the two players he had a good idea wouldn't respond.

Now I think you're wrong. He was voting for someone who wasn't posting to get a reaction (hence "tell me why you're not scum"). Unless I've missed something (?)

This is maniacal. Claiming you're the village idiot seems like the perfect way to cover up for scummy posting, possibly worse even than a n00b claim.

Its the same claim essentially.

Unvote Zakk_Status a pointless vote really.

He come under pressure, he unvotes. Again.

I think it was a mostly pointless vote, designed for pressure. When it didn't work he unvoted.

: Probably Not Scum.

You say nothing here Jenter, this is a Gator saying soup is prolly town line.

Fails to provide any of the points or why they are confusing.

Agreed, rather contentless again.

"Jenter's Acting Really scummy but I'm pretty sure he's not scum." I don't understand. It's obvious some vibes have to occur from his scummy behavior.

This could be Gators said "confusing argument" (?)

There was no wagon. He was the first Random voter on soup.

Agreed.

So you're advocating lynching yourself? Why would a townie do that?

Why would scum do that? AH WIFOM!

Jenter

Thoughts: Short posts every once in a while.

Why He might be scum: Lurking, Lurking, Lurking. He's had very many posts none of them having much content and then pointing his finger at me for doing the exact same thing.

Why he might not scum: At least He's posting a lot.

Questions:
Jenter, who do you find most scummy now?

You don't touch this with your green pen Jenter.

Ok, he's jumped on Niv's arguments before and now Niv is the one player he chooses not to bother analysing. It's not bad on it's own, but it all adds up...

Its often a townie move to assume someone defending you can't be scum. Agreed that everything adds up. I doubt these two are paired though.

I sware I'm the VI.

Tries to mask his blunders with the 'I'm crap' tell'.

Yep, doesn't sit well with me.

Oman agrees we should Lynch the VI.

Point again?

Gator asks for a VC.

Point?

Other people talk about Lynching VIs, the 'they tend to turn up town', and so on, but discussion contiunes...

Point?

Gator says 'I'm the Vi not scum' with 0% evidence.

thats the problem, the evidence for VI is the same as evidence for scum.

He says he doesn't want to claim, which is interesting.

As did you, even if not in as many words.

Niv;

ok, so we decide that gator is stupid.

Wat i see here is that after Gator says VI, Oman votes for him. i have been suspicious of oman before, so i will now Unvote, Vote oman. that ss bad imo

Blatant defence of Gator. We have some mislynches to us, and GATOR LOOKS SCUMMY. Pretty much everyone agrees. Just baecuse he claims stupidity doesn't mean he's stupid OR innocent.

Niv isn't defending Gator here, he's defending the town. I wanted to lynch Gator and Niv assumes that VIs turn up town.

Everyone swings around when I keep trying to get a Gator lynch, on the lynching for info is bad wagon.

the further we get into this day, the more I agree with lynching for info, the time you called it was too early. Discussion gives more info.

Jimmy keeps as silent watch on Streef. I have had a though that he may be a lyncher for Streef, but otherwise I am unsure why this is.

Interesting thought about lynchers and lynchees. Makes me think the powerroles in this game are going to be largely unreliable.

TBS keeps on Gator.

Haut repalces in.

Point?

I admit that I haven't played too well so far.

as Niv said, fix it or it doesn't matter what you admit. This post is a definate step.

This Niv/Gator thing. I don't think they're scum, they're just too...transparent. That said, as this game goes on, lynching for information could work, and then we have to take a guess on one of them.

If anyone wants me to claim, say so and I will.

I'd prefer not, if someone else wants you to they can ask but I'd suggest we don't go fishing for roles right now.

*

sounds like a poor meals on wheels

[Oman]

Oh right, just reiteration for context. Sorry.

[Oman]

Same here Jimmy, I end up limelighted because I do second and third votes cause randoms annoy me. About the limelight, I don't hate it, I don't care about it. If i get lynched as a townie, its bound to help find scum. My win condition doesn't require me to be alive, so why make it my priority?

[Oman]

Any townie has the same win condition Jenter, and I'm neccesarily claiming vanillia. I have a feeling from your hints and gator's hints that powerroles abound.

Lynching for info could work here, if we lynch Jenter and he's scum, we get a tick. We also learn about soup, gator, and niv. Even Me and Jimmy to a smaller degree.

I still don't want it now, we have good discusion going.

[Oman]

When did I claim? Seriously, I only talked about a win condition which is the same from townie to cop to doc.

Also, on reread I did miss a word. Should be "I'm

not

neccesarily claiming vanillia". I know it doesn't look good but if you read through that sentence then it makes sense I dropped the word.

Lynching for info gains more and more merit as the day goes on and more and more connections become apparent.

[Oman]

Thai, whats your thought(s) on Jenter.

[Oman]

Yes I agree that powerroles often prefer not to claim, but the language is much more ominous, like a Hulk "You don't want to make me angry" deal.

[Oman]

*Are the two attempts to lynch myself and jenter justified?

Two seperate issues. In retrospect, I'd say you, no. Jenter, yes.

*Is it just a coincidence that Niv, Oman and Gator have again gotten somebody to L-2?

No, maybe we're the most active town members. We thought you were scummy, and we think Jenter is scummy. Jimmy is now an active player (wasn't here early) and he's on Jenter too. Maybe we're all voting because we're all town...?

*Has Gator acted sufficiently scummy to warrant the suspicion of others?

Yes, but not as much as Jenter

*Is it suspicious that Niv and Oman have defended Gator on multiple occasions?

I'm sure it looks suspicious, but suspicion is not guilt. We have the same views, which seems suspicious, but is easily explainable.

[Oman]

So Jenter, you're saying Gator/Niv for scumpair?

[Oman]

Soupfly makes some interesting points, but in my eyes, the points he makes suggest that those three (Gator, Niv, Oman) are acting very pro-town. It could easily be a bluff but at the moment, I'm thinking they're probably not scum.

I happen to agree, and you seem very Pro-town to me too, leaving me with Erg0: Not much action. Lazy town, or ineffective scum.
Erotomachia: Not much action. Lazy town, or ineffective scum.
Jenter Brolincani: Looks scummy to me (hence the vote)
soupfly: Not sure. Jenter latched on tight, which could be defending scumbuddy, or teaming up so that if he comes up town Jenter looks good. I feel inclined to say scum here, but not worth a vote.
Streeflo: I think town, but only because I don't really have anything outstanding.
ThaiBoxerShorts: line ball.
Haut Boy: Early days...probably town though.

Thus the vote stands.

[Oman]

WHY, in your eyes, does gator look town?

Sorry, I did neglect this.

I think Gators town 1) because the two scummiest players (at one point) were attacking him 2) He has the same thoughts/ideas as me and Niv 3) He's been ineffective if scum, hasn't caused much kerfuffle without him at the centre.

[Oman]

Unvote

Jenter...I would really, really like a full defence from you, a claim would not be in order. And I've unvoted because I don't want scum to jump it then bus each other just so that we miss you.

As far as I see it. You're the scummiest, but this conversation is just fantastic. Now to post this before I do my long one so that no-one hammers while I'm typing (/imagine).

[Oman]

it's still way the hell too early to be speculating on setup! Though Oman (I think) seemed to miss this

I didn't "miss" it, I just don't think setup speculation is particularly scummy. I mean, its healthy if you want to look at ideas, but to force it out of people is scummy. Asking for a roleclaim is different to thinking about roles if you ask me.

Putting someone at L-1 in your second post is a bad thing, but considering your second post is actuall post number 276 on page 12. I'm willing to let it slide. Its not like there wasn't content to go through.

J-Broc

: Treat it as if my votes still on you. I want you lynched, but not while this sort of discussion is occuring.

[Oman]

[quote"Haut Boy"] when you have little information on the other players, its hardly healthy to be speculating like that [/quote]

You're right, as you say earlier, we should be speculating on who is scum, not about who is a lyncher, especially when the only reason is that he went after him.

[Oman]

I hate quote tags.

[Oman]

Jenter, that is probably your first good attempt at defence, but if what you said is true, that you formulate hypothesises slowly, its 12 pages in I'd like to know what your hypothesis is now. Who do you think is the scum pair(/trio?)? Where do you rate everyone in scumminess?

[Oman]

EBWOP: For extra information, I still don't like Jenter, still don't want discussion to stop though.

[Oman]

EBWOP x2: Just got an idea. If others think he's scum..

GATOR: I'd like to know what your hypothesis is now. Who do you think is the scum pair(/trio?)? Where do you rate everyone in scumminess?

[Oman]

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject: 187. So what you wrote is not true.

Your time zone is different to Niv's, I assume, as yours is different to mine. Forum times are done on local times.

makes no sense.

Agreed.

If he agrees with my reasoning does he have to repeat what I had already written? Again Niv is grasping.

I think that Jenter must have had his own ideas along with yours. More would have been nice there, but more is always better.

Hmm...pot meet kettle? Let's revisit some of Niv's posts:
Seems to me that sometimes Niv also doesn't have time to post "real" responses. I thought Niv had a problem with hypocracy...

When compiled this does look hypocritical.

There is content in the post if you take it in context (which is not something you are apt to do). Gator didn't address the issue in his post...just called the suspicion dumb. Not addressing accusations is scummy.

Then why couldn't that have been said? Jenter's post was the perfect example of a post which

could

have been filled with content but wasn't.

Not sure why this is here except to make his argument seem bigger than it is.

I think its like Jenter's contextual segments, just extra things to keep the ball rolling. (plus many PBPA do EVERY post)

i play like tus as town, so i am playing like thus intentensionally to throw people off. all wifom, all bad.

Again, Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle. Niv resorting to WIFOM to to make a case against Jenter's WIFOM.

Niv's comment is (to my reading) acutally an example, or a ...not really sarcasm, but a simplified version of WIFOM not working.
Thus:

Second instance of hypocrisy.

I refute this.

First off, if hypocricy was such a big deal for Niv then how come he's over looked Oman's multiple (acknowledged by him) instances of contradicting himself in this thread?

My contradictions are not hypocricy but mistakes. Still...point taken.

Second, I just pointed out two instances of hypocrisy by Niv in this thread. I guess that makes Niv twice as guilty as the other hypocrits.

Sorry, but I say that its only one instance. Also, hypocrisy is not proportional to guilt. To guilty-looking-ness, yes, but not guilt.

but to call what he says a blatant lie is not the case. Its interpretable and if people want to call it defending then so be it.

Isn't everything interpretable, NOTG.

Fair point. Overdefending can be interpreted as Jenter acknowledging that he was in fact defending me...its the "over" that gives it away.

Thus Jenter is contradicting himself again. Is that 3 times the guilt soup . I am kidding, Just playing on soup's earlier reasoning.

Jenter writes that he's "at a loss as to a reasonable analysis of

all

the players."

I agree that hear Jenter was merely being "slow to form a hypothesis".

Again Niv looking for filler in his "longer is better" style of analysis.

I think he just misinterpreted. You're taking it rather sinisterly.

What? He's not pushing for a lynch. Read what he wrote. He states "If I had to lynch I'd say Gator".

What? He didn't say he jenter was pushing for a lynch. Read what he wrote. He states "advocates lynching someone to gague reactions".

Plus if Niv's against lynching to gauge reaction then why doesn't he have a bigger issue with Oman who's advocated this.

I believe I was slammed before Niv got on for that. I could be wrong, I'm not reading that part atm.

I feel that this entire argument is so forced, bloated and inconsistent that I really have to wonder whats up with Niv.

I too think it looks bloated, and inconsistant.

But ATM not enough for a vote. On Niv or other.

[Oman]

GATOR: I'd like to know what your hypothesis is now. Who do you think is the scum pair(/trio?)? Where do you rate everyone in scumminess?

scum trio:

Jenter, Thaiboxershorts (either that or he's just REALLY Paranoid) or Haut boy, Streetflo

'

I don't like this. I don't think Haut or Streeflo are that scummy. I'd like to hear why you think that Gator.

[Oman]

I know, and Haut boy doesn't look that scummy to me, so I'm thinking that maybe they could be right about Gator...still not enough as of yet.

[Oman]

I think Niv is seeing what I'm seeing, that maybe the VI claim was an early "last-ditch" effort to seem town.

I could be wrong on Niv thinking this too, but "you truly can't be this stupid" has the same feeling. Streeflo hit it with the right words, its very OMGUS. Its especially illogical, as Ero said, to have all scum on one wagon.

[Oman]

Wasn't Erg0 replaced?

Scumlist:

Jenter Scummy
Gator Scummy
Soup (mutually exclusive with Gator)/Streeflo Semi-scummy
Haut/JimmyTBS Unconfirmed
Niv Townish

Scummy =/= Definatly Scum, Townish =/= Definatly Town.

[Oman]

EBWOP: Sorry Erg0, turns out you we'ren't I forgot about Zakk.

[Oman]

Nobody claims VI, then attempts to lend credibility to it. Thats a rediculous action, in no way helping the town, it makes no sense. Its like, watching the Simpsons to learn about current events, or juggling to improve cardio fitness, or playing mafia to "have fun". If your town, you are designed to help town win. Screw the individual.

[Oman]

Well you're ignoring the obvious alternative, which is that he's scum trying to pass himself off as VI.

True, I'm not ignoring it, I just didn't think it was likely until now.


Gator there are many questions with your name on them. Please answer them.

[Oman]

Do you think that both Gator and Jenter could be scum? I personally don't think it's likely.

I think its unlikely, but I am willing to beleive a connection. That jenter's orginal actions against gator were a distancing thing. Jenter wasn't fully into him early, just a little bit, enough to distance maybe.

I believe if Gator is scum that Jenter is his partner. Jenter was a little too eager to claim for a cop or doc, in my mind. I'd be willing to belive a Gator/Jenter masonry.

Plan A) If anyone disagrees say so but:
Jenter: Can you say if you're Gator's Mason or not?

I don't really want the mason to jump in and say "its me", I just want to hear if its Jenter.

Plan B) Lets not do this one yet. But if Gator's mason claims, then assuming they are really masons and not scum, we have two confirmed townies and can re-read on that.

Of course, this means Gator and Mason get NKed probably, but thats why they invented Docs

Just some prelim ideas.

Personally, I think its a bad gambit and I'll put on an

FoS Gator

because I'm just not sure at this point.

[Oman]

Thats a valuble idea Thai!

[Oman]

Except, his partner dies Night 1

[Oman]

CONFIRMED vanillia. Very special type. Its kind of dicey to leave any confirmed alive.

[Oman]

I went over the numbers an you're right. If they hit the mason, they have a 0 chance of hitting a powerrole. Hit any other and its 1/7 or 2/7 depending on number of powerroles left.

I'd like to hear the mason claim ASAP from his partner.

[Oman]

No, not yet....
Re-read in order.

Later:
Okay, Jimmy looks clean to me.

Vote: Jenter

[Oman]

...

Unvote Jenter

Jenter I would like you to claim before I put my vote back on (don't want you lynched before-hand). Can you also include any breadcrumbing for me? Cheers.

[Oman]

EVERYONE UNVOTE JENTER!

This is easy to test if he is lying, we simply hit a majority and if there is no kill, its obvious.

Okay, heres my idea. If we get Jenter to kill Gator, then we have A) two confirmed innocents (Jenter and Jimmy) if he comes up town or B) one of each if he comes up scum (with Jimmy as the scum).

This way we don't waste our D1 lynch, but still get plenty of info.

Of course, if you believe Gator and Jimmy are both town...

I'm out of ideas...maybe soup or TBS? But I wouldn't wanna vig-kill anyone on a whim.

Kill: Gator

I could be wrong.

[Oman]

Thats right Ero, the only reason would be to claim vig if need-be. But its illogical for an SK to play like a vig, because Jenter did not know when he would need to claim.

If he was an SK masquarading as vig, he would have claimed at first chance, to "confirm" himself.

I would rather trust Jenter here, then assume our masons are lying and our vig is lying.

No SK saves the N0 kill, its a perfect opertunity to kill without any WIFOM being played on the kill.

[Oman]

Ero, we will not lose the other mason tonight. Scum will not hit was essentially a vanillia if they can help it. I said before, its a numbers game, and hitting a vanillia they have 0 chance of hitting a powerrole.

I think its valuable to have confirmed innocents.

Also, TBS' plan wasn't terrible, I saw the logic. I wanted a claim because I thought that Gator was merely trying out a gambit that was going south. He claimed under NO pressure and I thought he was just trying it out (in accordance with his VI past). I thought Jimmy could be covering (scumbuddy going "oh crap I need to save him") and claiming to help. By killing gator, as I said, we gain two CONFIRMED townies narrowing our votes to hit scum by 3.

I don't understand why scum would vote for plans that would increase their chance of being voted. Play the numbers. As a member of the remaining 11, three are scum, leave them in the equation.
Now we play worst case:
3/11 chance of scum gettting lynched. Kill gator (town) 3/10 chance. Jimmy confirmed, Jenter confirmed(-ish I see he could be SK, but i think vig is more likely). 3/9. They've gone from 1/4 to 1/3 with only 1 townie lost. Thats bad for the scum. If Jenter isn't scum he's dead tonight anyway, they can't afford to let him live.

Ero, if you must vote for me, can you please get me vigged instead of Lynched, I'd prefer you didn't waste D1 on a townie kill.

[Oman]

EBWOP: Best case
3/11 chance. Kill Gator (scum) 2/10 Jimmy (confirmed scum) is lynched

1 scum V 9 townies in one hit.

[Oman]

Okay Jimmy, I almost think you're clean, I do. But I'm just not sure on Gator or Jenter. Yes, you are confirming Gator, but maybe you're playing a really good scum game and saving someone whose playing a really bad one.

I hate to say this, but most of Gator's posts require about seven questions asked on them, we don't get the information we want out of him.

BTW, I'm not just killing innocents "for info". I'm doing it for odds. If I can bring the chance of hitting scum from 1/4 to 1/3 without losing a significant ammount of townies, I'll jump at it. NO, I don't want to mislynch. Yes, I do advocate vigging a townie if the return from their death is greater then the loss of them (nothing against gator, but I'd drop almost anyone to get those odds). A mislynch would simply waste our (wonderful so far) D1.

The mafia is at an advantage because they are the informed minority, we are the uninformed majortiy. If we can become an INFORMED majority, we are unbeatable. I am merely suggesting the first step towards it.

Otherwise, I've been fishing and all I got was two, one of which is now a mason, and the other is a vig, so I'm all out worms here.

[Oman]

I'm the biggest idiot! My plan is completely based on the idea that Jenter is a day-vig. When I thought over his claim, while he doesn't say it, he implies hes a night-vig.

Jenter can you confirm either way. Thanks

Unkill: Gator

[Oman]

Okay, rethinking. We simply assume that Jimmy and Gator are town, and I believe Jenter's vig.

So now, with all those assumptions The scum could be:
Erg0
Erotomachia
Niv
soupfly
Streeflo
ThaiBoxerShorts
Haut Boy

Hmm. Also, I did take myself off that list, because I know I'm town

Niv was protecting Gator, though working on Jenter. I think Niv is town. Ero and erg0 I don't know. Soup, not sure. Streeflo, more scummy then not, but nothing big. TBS, not sure. Neither am I with Haut...sigh!

[Oman]

I want to know why TBS' plan was so bad.

[Oman]

Acutally, it just isn't right. I re-read it again, with my current knowledge of Jenter's night-vig status, and I realise the problems.

Sorry guys, but this is my first game with a vig, and I expected it to be a day-vig, so I'm muddled.

[Oman]

I don't understand why Jimmy should not have claimed? I definatly was NOT believing Gator's claim.

What do you mean a claim with 0 votes on me? Claiming that I'm town aligned. I use the word townie to signify anyone who is on the towns side, in fact

[colour=blue]Khelvaster, Townie Cop, slain the first night[/color

That's from Maz's first post, townie is an allignment, not a role.

While you're voting for me, I don't think you're scum, I think you're overwhelmed atm (what with the caps and all ). I am ready to defend myself against any accusation you throw at me. For now:

Were rolefishing, and advocated a mason buddy claiming

. Gator claimed and starting this whole roleclaim thing. After Gator claimed Jenter looked really bad, he claimed mostly off his own bat. Yes I advocated a mason buddy claiming, but there is no way, after Gator's previous play. I was ready to believe it.

[Oman]

Okay, so moving on from my defence. TBS doesn't look good, he has a done a bit of bandwagon hopping, but I'm open to his defence about it.

People I think are townies:
Ero, he's been looking around, he's definatly alert. I think he's honestly trying to find scum

Streeflo, that last post looks good to me. Its not conclusive, but I'd be willing to beleive you are town atm.

Haut, not much on him, but no suspicion as of yet.

Scum trio:
Maybe Erg0, TBS, soup. I don't know.

I think soup did a bit of role-hunting early on questioning Gator's motives for keeping his place (turns out he was right).

Oh yeah, and don't worry about that cop investigation Streeflo.

[Oman]

I know Thai, we have gone over it. Thats what I mean by I'm open to his defence. I meant your previous defence on the topic.

You did jump off the wagons quickly, which was the point we made earlier that was never really addressed.

and nothing has changed since I proved it in an earlier post.

See above. Open to his defence = accepted previous explaination.

[Oman]

I accept that is the course of events. If you look through the thread earlier (IIRC) I have said that you weren't especially townish in my mind.

I am not swayed by faulty arguments, but I tend to see the value in things before I see the..um...un-value. I've talked about why I liked your plan earlier, the fact I was working on the idea of a Day-vig not night-vig.

I don't think your scummy because of that plan, because you retracted it before anyone else, I think you're scummy because of a proccess of elimination. You're one of the ones I don't feel are especially town.

[Oman]

I see Streeflo. So mason is bad choice for a fakeclaim for scum, why is that so?

I mean, two masons, two scum, the differences are slight. The only thing is, people are reluctant to lynch claimed masons, meaning it could be a successful gambit. I'm just thinking Mason theory here.

[Oman]

Nah, this sure is interesting though.

[Oman]

Sorry Thai, I was writing as you posted, didn't see it.

You're right, I did express approval, at the time, it seemed like a good idea, the vig thing merely propagated it. I liked it simply for the numbers, as I explained. Narrowing the view of who was scum.

Or are you refering to the plan to lynch Gator anyway?

[Oman]

Whoever we end up lynching, we should establish two plans for Jenter: one if the lynch turns up town, and one if the lynch turns up scum. These may or may not be the same.

We still need to hear from a few people before we proceed.

Yes! I was just about to post the same plan! I was worried you'd have a big setup to hit "my scumbuddy" and when I came up town you'd be stuffed. I also suggest you don't lynch untill you have 3 people. Lynch, vig if lynch is town, vig if lynch is scum. That way we'll be set for the day.

[Oman]

About Mafia doing a double-kill. I don't like that idea. I doubt they'd do it, or they, essentially, waste a night phase (that is, they only get one kill out of a potential two).

Now that Jenter is a night-vig (confirmed), I could easily see it as an SK claiming vig. Of course, I don't believe it to be so, but the oppertunity is there.

Jenter should still kill the most scummy person (in his own mind, if you don't want to do a vote thing) as killing anyone else is just pointless.

[Oman]

Streeflo, Jenter has already stated he uses a machette. If it came they were "shot" then we'd know..unless Maz doesn't do that in his death scenes

As for not directing town powerroles...why not? I know not to direct cops or docs because thats mafia assiting and also has a few other things attatched to it (they often are smart enough to do it themselves). I don't understand not directing the vig..unless you are saying the mafia can direct it as well causing two "mislynches" per day (lynch and vig).

[Oman]

Niv has the same idea I had in 388. Why would they waste their night phase just to make Jenter look bad?

[Oman]

Ah I see Streef.

[Oman]

Soup, I don't believe Maz will tell us that. Mods tend not to reveal a whole lot of information (remember when you asked about Gator's absense)

[Oman]

yeah i suppose.

[Oman]

Okay, I see your point. Except now its void, cause we'll be on the lookout.

[Oman]

No, it was not Jimmy.

I mean, we'll be on the lookout if there is no kill for this scam, thus it being void.

That is, if the mafia pull it to frame Jenter, we'll say "hey they're pulling it to frame Jenter".

[Oman]

EBWOP: What will the scum be on the lookout for? This whole conversation is about town finding out things.

[Oman]

I guessed that, you said it in your claim (I think, or after) and reffered to your votes as "Machette Votes".

Thanks for confirming though.

[Oman]

Jimmy R - Pro-town

Glad you put that one in

I am undecided on most people now, I'm either undecided or leaning towards pro-town on everyone except the confirmed townies.

[Oman]

Re-read Jenter's PBPA when he said that...Niv certainly has the aspects of the "protect the innocent" scumplay, but before I vote I'd like to hear from Niv on it.

[Oman]

What I meant Steef, is that I don't have a probably scum-vibe yet.

With Jenter, I am thinking more and more that he could be SK, machette is usually an SK weapon with guns for a vig, right? I'm not sure about this, but its a train of thought.

[Oman]

Any reasons, specific examples. I can't defend against nothing.

[Oman]

Okay, so I made some bad calls, but I don't feel they're scummy.

Also, One-shot vig? Jenter never mentioned that.

[Oman]

Vote: Niv

Niv and TBS anyone? I don't like the way he put me at L-1 like that, Nice catch erg0

I don't like Niv for a few reasons. One is what Jenter found in the PBPA, I don't feel I need to go throught it all again, but if you want me to, I will.

A few others:

he seams to belive that the vig in a mini isn't a one shot, thoughing off our reasoning.

1. He isn't one-shot.
2. I'm not the only one, look at soups' 401, he also mentions multiple vig kills.
3. Assuming he is one-shot throws off the reasoning by the same logic, thus you logically prove yourself scummy there.

i do belive that to be a fraudian slip.

I've already explained, it doesn't make any sense with "we" meaning "mafia". It

does

however make sense with "we" being "the town" on the lookout for a Jenter frame.

I think that he's hitting what looks like a scum slip-up to dust me up.

[quote="Niv']Attacks and defences play little head until someone is dead.[/quote]
Advocating lynching for information now?

Anyway, its untrue. Attacks and defences play a little head until someone is FOUND. We find that Gator and Jimmy are town, so attacks and defences are important in reference to them, regardless of whether they are alive or dead.

Also, erg0

but you've consistently made the wrong play since the claiming started as far as I can see.

This is my first experience with claims, I'm still unsure about how it all works.

[Oman]

They are my top 3 scummiest players right now.

I assume I'm the third?

How do you rank us in scummyness?

Jenter, I agree that Niv is the play for today, unless he pulls out a damn good defence.

MOD

Votecount please, just cause ya love me

[Oman]

So Jimmy, of course you wont believe me, but I am 100% town, and I feel that TBS jump on me was a scum move.

[Oman]

Tonights vig kill is less likely to hit scum in my mind, cause a) the obvious one is already lynched and B) theres no chance for the viggee to defend themselves.

But I do have a good feeling given how long D1 has been.

Six to lynch?

[Oman]

Actually now that I think about it, it is likely, what with all the information the lynch gives the vig.

Carry on.

[Oman]

Well hopefully Gator or Haut boy will make a decision.

I'd be interested how Gator (the only confirmed townie not voting) votes.

[Oman]

Gator, I agree that Niv should have the chance to defend himself, but why should Haut NEED to check the lynch out? Niv should have been your concern.

Gator: STOP DIRECTING JENTER!

Now that Maz is back we probably wont have a long twilight, unfortunatly I was hoping it could be rather large.

Streef here could be A) Scum reluctant to bus or B) Town who doesn't see it. Or if Niv is town, and we're all wrong C) Scum who wants to look clean D2 or D) Town who just doesn't see it.

Just the options. I think its much more likely to be A then B, and C then D. I'd be happy with taking a huge (i mean HUGE) look at TBS D2, and depending how that results, continuing the day but taking a look at Streef.

[Oman]

I don't mind lynching any one of Niv, TBS, or Oman. However, I'm completely against the idea of hammering Niv before he can respond

So if Niv responds in a sub-par way you're likely to change your vote to him? You are looking only very slightly scummy to me at this moment, I'd be happy to look at TBS in great detail before we even think about you.

[Oman]

Whoa? Claim from Niv? Thats a little...forceful. I don't really want a claim, I just want some defence. If the only thing Niv can do to defend himself is claim, well thats different but if he can defend himself into not being lynched without claiming, I'll be extatic!

it's not like his individual vote is going to save or doom Niv

at L-1 it certainly could doom him.

I'm not waiting on a response from anyone but Niv, erg0. No-one else really matters.

On Ero's asking for approval, I think don't find it overly scummy. I see it more as, finding out if we want to end the day yet. Remember, once this lynch happens, we stop talking overnight and in the morning, its highly likely 2 of us won't wake up. We want everyone to say their peice before D1 ends if we can.

[Oman]

My biggest fear was the Niv would claim, or come up Doc. But I doubt that very much. I think Niv is the play for today.

And saying that, based on the general consensus of you guys I won't be waking up. If thats the case I want you all to take a long look at how TBS jumped on me (page 18).

Other then that, I feel good about today, I think we took our time and its looking good.

[Oman]

I don't like masons, they have to be outed to be really useful

Anyway, I would like to think that there is a doc, but I doubt it as well. Of course, if there is, the mafia will have fun with tonights WIFOM doc protection NK

[Oman]

Ah, I've figured out how the doc could be in there and it fits with my earlier theories:

12 people,
1 cop
1doc
2 Masons
4 Vanilla town
3 mafia
1

Multi Vig

Serial Killer.

That way its 8/3/1 which is the "fair" split. Also explains all the power-roles.

Niv's right IMHO, Jenter's the fish, however, if he kills too many townies, its obviously not going to work out.

Of course, the mafia aren't going to want to take a chance that there's a multi-vig out there and will probably off Jenter ASAP. I'm not sure.

Anyway, Jenter, if you could claim which kill is yours D2 if you kill N1, that will help pin who the mafia are, based on who kills who.

[Oman]

I think he set up the claim, its not at all a bad gambit, waste one kill to clear himself. Also, it fits the set-up better.

Plus with the vote system he had going he could essentially kill with the town's blessing.

Erg0 I'd like to hear what you think one way or the other on Niv, you're not voting, but I'm not going to guess a viewpoint out of that.

[Oman]

Unknown, yes. Pointless, no. If we have a doc, you are not a vig, unless we're an extremely overpowered town (which I don't mind the slightest!)

[Oman]

Okie doke.

Ero's play is rather erratic of later. He's gone from asking town approval to hammer to agreeing with a Niv lynch to voting me?

Ero and Niv may be connected?

[Oman]

Okay, you just seem jumpy between the votes. My suggestion would be to vote Niv, Jenter is likely to vig me tonight anyway.

[Oman]

Niv never claimed, meaning, I suppose, Niv claimed vanillia. He seemed to think there were no power-roles other then the outed ones, so thats a pretty good indicator.

[Oman]

Niv claimed vanilla town in 468.

As he did, I missed it.

My thoughts on Niv: I had some suspicions of him previously for much the same reasons as everybody else, it was his quick wagon vote on Oman that really got my attention. I think it's highly likely that he or TBS is scum. Probably not both, though.

I think its highly like TBS is scum with Niv. They tried to speedwagon me but Erg0 stopped it dead. I think it was a failed move.

I really don't see the point in lynching Oman today, we'll be able to figure out tomorrow or the next day if he's lying, and even if he is an SK there's no guarantee that he won't be helpful in the short term by killing scum at night - especially now that he can't kill a power role and still claim vig.

I assume you're refering to lynching me, and then you change to Jenter. Unless you got the two of us confused(?)

Anyone have anything further to add before I hammer?

I'm happy for you to hammer, and hopefully twilight will be plenty to talk about.

[Oman]

Look forward to it

[Oman]

I probably wont get on before someone hammers and night starts, but I've said all I really want to say today.

I'm fine with other people continuing conversation but I haven't got anything left to speak.

[Oman]

Holy crap Niv, you just entrusted our safety into the hands of one person....I'm scared outa my brain right now, just cause I can't protect.

Seriously, I still think Jenter =SK and Niv's with me on this from reading his posts. By killing me (or Niv) is the only way Jenter can kill with town blessing.

Erg0 I'd prefer you voted either way for a lynch and not to make Gator do it. You see, we (basically) know that Gator is town and if you make a choice we learn about you.

My question is simply this: Are you voting me to make Gator choose, or because you think I'm scum and Niv is town?

[Oman]

Okay, my main point was do you want me lynched. Thanks for clarifying.

Gator, get in!

[Oman]

I just realised the two people who were defending Gator are now at his mercy. Irony sucks.

[Oman]

Wouldn't mind a Gator...

[Oman]

Oh you want me to claim now! WELL I SHALL CLAIM:

SUPER DUPER WHOPPER BURGER

You vote and win with the town, but vanillia townie just doesn't cover your super duper-ness. Hopefully this suffices.

Yeah, Erg0, vanillia, just wanted to have some fun.

[Oman]

Gator: c'mon. re-read and vote.

[Oman]

DAMMIT! Don't worry town. I forgive you.

I am in fact a Townie.

Plan Day 2 well guys. I suggest you look at TBS for that wagon job on me, and possibly even take another look at Jenter. I stand by my SK remark (Jenter if I'm wrong Sorry)

Well guys. Good luck with the rest of the scum. Niv, if you're maifa, you've survived D1, but I wont be here D2 to help you.

[Oman]

You string up Oman and watch him dangle. As he turns his left hand opens and a not falls to the ground

I forgive you town. Sorry Niv

Considering the possibility you pry open his right hand hoping for a note describing the situation, you find a note that says:

Bah..go town.

[Oman]

RULE: STOP KILLING OMAN!

Lol, you guys played well. I figured out the scum D2 (read: Maz told me). I watched you play through the whole time.

Shanba fought well but was ultimatly sunk from the beginning.

Streef did awesome, and that Daykill really ruined the LyLo thing. I think that Daykill screwed it up as the town felt they had another lynch up their sleeves and so were more reckless than normal.

Maz, its a nice setup, I like the idea of immunities to different players (rock paper scissors style) however I heavily, heavily dislike the idea of daykilling scum in a mini.

Thanks for the game, D2 might be nice next time.

[Oman]

Aussies get me

Nah you were awesome cause you're awesome. To everyone who is wondering: I did not actually make any game relevant comment to erg0 at all. I merely said he was full of awesomesauce.

[Oman]

BTW being lynched first day hurts me lots...At least vig me N1 GEEZ!

This came across as rather funny:

scum trio:

Jenter, Thaiboxershorts (either that or he's just REALLY Paranoid) or Haut boy, Streetflo

Heh...I should listen to that guy more often.

[Oman]

I was wrong about Oman,

damn straight!