Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Espeonage]

Claim what you did Espeonage

Traced Titus

[Espeonage]

Oh

NOW YOU PEOPLE WANT UT

Assholes

We can lynch Espy with the second lynch.

Mhm yeah Ffery totally didn't expressly ask for me to not be lynched today.

I have half a mind to treat any votes on me today as scumclaims considering how much everyone was following the leader yesterday.

If there was a trace on me I'd like to know since it may have foiled my trace and I'd like to know if Titus can still be in my lynch pool because I would love that.

[Espeonage]

Ok Lynching UT is dumb right now. It's a waste of our mechanics.
Lynch on me is dumb because we should at least pretend to still care about ffery and that Titus is pushing for it.

Lynch on Titus will get rid of a scum. Thus that is a great lynch.

Vote: Titus

[TellTaleHeart]

rereading bulba and marquis is probably something that should happen though.

Yes, please.

Spoiler: Thoughts about Bulba, spoilered so it doesn't bias you in the reread

There are things that bother me here:
*He's a ghost in the vote counts.
*The quote-stripe catchup mode the posts are always in is a pretty easy format for scum to look participative while not actually doing anything, which is actually what make up the bulk of his posts.
*Mollie's contributions are pretty shallow and don't come off as particularly genuine.

[Cheetory6]

Lynch on me is dumb because we should at least pretend to still care about ffery

Don't say uncool things man.

[TellTaleHeart]

@TTH, what happened to UT being lynchbait?

I'm informed he has the same acerbic attitude in every game, which I checked out and see is true.

Also, seriously Cheet? What the hell are you doing?

[Espeonage]

The issue is that bulba does those posts as both alignments and is usually reserved with his vote, he's always a sleeper player, especially early and the bits of his that I've read put him in my town pile which is rare for him so I doubt bulba is scum here.

PEDIT: They're the ones throwing away her reads.

[Cheetory6]

I'm informed he has the same acerbic attitude in every game, which I checked out and see is true.

Also, seriously Cheet? What the hell are you doing?

In every game or every scumgame?
And hmm?

[ActionDan]

oh - the only reason titus isn't 100% [town] is because nacho usually has uncertainty in his titus reads. not having uncertainty is ironically a source of small uncertainty.

Lynch on me is dumb because we should at least pretend to still care about ffery

Vote: Titus

The care just oozes from you

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm informed he has the same acerbic attitude in every game, which I checked out and see is true.

Also, seriously Cheet? What the hell are you doing?

In every game or every scumgame?
And hmm?

Every game. That was mostly the reason I was townreading him.

And

what are you doing? As in, what are you working towards? A DV-lynch? Is that it?

[Espeonage]

Cheet, I think you're town. Yoghurts thinks you're town. I like your tone here and I picked up on tonal tells for you super quick in chat mafias.

I would like to work with you.

I have a residual scum read on Oversoul, a scum read on Titus and not much else in the way of scum reads. I do get your DV reasoning but knowing my alignment I don't see the resultant no lynch to be incriminating for him. Is there somewhere we can compromise?

[Espeonage]

oh - the only reason titus isn't 100% [town] is because nacho usually has uncertainty in his titus reads. not having uncertainty is ironically a source of small uncertainty.

Lynch on me is dumb because we should at least pretend to still care about ffery

Vote: Titus

The care just oozes from you

Do not do the thing (lynch me) =/= Not completely sold on this slot because our team knows we have difficulty reading the player.

[Cheetory6]

Weird. I was under the impression that you were townreading him based on how much interest there was for him to be offed atm. If that's not the case then fair enough.
I think DVlynch is what I can get most behind atm. I'm also super down for a DVwagon for other reasons. Ones that I'm probably hypocritical for being against the UT wagon for though.
Johnny's been ISOdiving DV and we're conferring about how we feel about that read, and I might make a super concise case sometime in the relatively not-too-far away future?

Cheet, I think you're town. Yoghurts thinks you're town. I like your tone here and I picked up on tonal tells for you super quick in chat mafias.

o.o I feel like my chatmafia tone is way different than my forumMafia tone but okay.

I have a residual scum read on Oversoul, a scum read on Titus and not much else in the way of scum reads.

I do get your DV reasoning but knowing my alignment I don't see the resultant no lynch to be incriminating for him.

Is there somewhere we can compromise?

I can't see myself getting behind an Oversoul lynch almost ever.
You can pitch me your case there and we can talk about it though.
I can't really see a Titus wagon happening despite my misgivings about her. I'm also down to back-and-forth that if there's something specific you'd like me to look at/engage me on.
Can you explain the bolded more clearly?

[ActionDan]

Ffery would not endorse a Titus lynch
In fact my guess is that given the choice based on her read list, ffery would rather lynch you than titus if she had a choice.

Otherwise I'm not sure what you are trying to imply

[singersigner]

so why are we fellating ffer's reads and not GiF's or TSOs?

they're confirmed town too

[ActionDan]

Presumably because one is detailed and analyzed and vetted by strong teammates... and iirc gif sheeped ffery half the time and TSO had maybe 3-4 underdeveloped reads... I mean.

[Titus]

@Singer, I don't know why

you

are ignoring the majority. GiF liked me as town at the end there. But hey, go ahead and cherry pick. If you think there's something we're missing from that list go ahead.

After work, I'll remake a town Bulba case. I kinda want to have that logic debate with TTH.

[singersigner]

I'm not saying I actually care about taking their reads into account, I'm just saying people need to stop treating her word as God's unless they actually have something to back it up themselves. I already told you my theory on you/GiF. Do you think he's saying the same thing about you in the dead thread now that you were the only person who knew he was a "doctor"?

Stop appealing to their town reads on you.

[Titus]

@Singer, his team's not in the dead thread. Oh and yes, I do.

I'll appeal to logic and the logic is that you're cherry picking to support your points.

Why don't you make a case on someone that's not me or a lurker?

[Oversoul]

Oh

NOW YOU PEOPLE WANT UT

Assholes

We can lynch Espy with the second lynch.

Mhm yeah Ffery totally didn't expressly ask for me to not be lynched today.

I have half a mind to treat any votes on me today as scumclaims considering how much everyone was following the leader yesterday.

If there was a trace on me I'd like to know since it may have foiled my trace and I'd like to know if Titus can still be in my lynch pool because I would love that.

Can we please get over Fferyllt's reads? Or if you don't, let's go down this path of reasoning Espeonage...

You say that you should not be lynched because of Fferyllt
You say that anyone voting you is a scum claim
I am voting you
I was strongly townread by Fferyllt

What is it then?

espy's approach to the game I think is very likely coming from a town mindset. I could be wrong, but his attacks and actions make a lot more sense coming from town than scum.

vezok is also basically the most obvious town in the game. rereading bulba and marquis is probably something that should happen though.

No, it doesn't.
It makes no sense at all why Espeonage, as a VT, would detect someone.
There is almost ZERO reason for that to happen. He chose Cheetory who he barely mentioned at all in his iso. And there was discussion of the actual detect mechanic and he still somehow "thought it would give him a positive effect".

[Gammagooey]

Oversoul I think you're confusing innattentiveness and tbf a general lack of care and thoroughness for actual scum motivation.

List out the assumptions you're making for Espeonage deciding to claim that, in that particular way, as scum.

-He's aware that people might think him detecting Cheet might look scummy (he says this in one of his posts)
-If he's scum, he chose to do that action for a particular reason. There are a rare few instances but going into a game and deciding "I'm going to do something that doesn't benefit OR harm me at all and then claim that as a gambit" isn't something that is ordinary for damn good reason.
-So why do it then- do you think that he thought he would be townread by claiming it? I don't see why, especially when he's saying that he knows other people could see it as scummy
-Do you think he claimed it to cover up an action that benefits scum? If he's worried enough to claim it in case people traced him, why do that action instead of trying to get traced visiting someone that looks scummy, and possibly influencing their read that way? What motivation would scum have to detect someone, then immediately claim that detect, making it look much worse for Esp-scum if Cheet dies soon, especially when Esp's already claimed VT and can't visit Cheet himself without worrying about being caught scum?

Like there are a few kind of outlandish ways that would make it possible for scum to benefit from it and make it worth it for Esp to claim it, but actually thinking that they're the most likely possibilities seems pretty wrong to me.

And I think we've all had games where we lunged after a lynch because someone was just too bad and was making too many poor decisions to be town and then had be wrong. It's a reasonable suspicion but I don't think he's trying to get away with anything here, I think he just made some stupid assumptions on how the detects would work and ran with it, and I still think his suspicions on Tammy and Titus were coming from town.

[Shadoweh]

TownTownTown
Oversoul, Gammagooey, ActionDan, Cheetory
Town
Shadoweh, Titus, Singer, GiF, Vezok, Aronis, FormerFish
Kinda Town:
Bulbazak, CDB, Mastin, FormerFish
Leftovers:
DV, Espeonage, tth, UT

I'd really rather see espe or even DV flipped.
Going to write a post about Mastin-gambits next.

Did you look at literally anything besides the huge reads list when you decided ffery thought DV was town? <_< The only caveat after is that Nacho preferred to lynch Formerfish. (Something I can get behind). And later says that Marquis came off as town in interactions with DV while DV..

Marquis comes off town in the Marquis-Deas interaction. Nacho noticed that Marquis reached out and sort of attached himself to Deas earl and he doesn't think that Marquis does that as scum or that the two of them do it as scum-scum. he felt that Marquis's side of the interactions felt very very honest while DV's didn't exactly excite and come off town to the same xtent. Nacho doesn't like DV's reads at this point in time. the sudden townread on Espeonage when he didn't have that townread feels fishy as all hell on it's own without any of the other things that ping.

Like, with the last three posts, it's pretty obvious the wagons advocated were Bulba, DV, UT. There wasn't a townread on DV since two thousand posts ago. Because DV has decided he's canadian and just wants to post 'I'm sorry'. DV knows I love him but that's not good enough.

nacho's personal scumpool is gif/formerfish/ut/bulbyzak. I'd totally swap deas into that pool for gif as things currently stand.

Well GiF obviously didn't flip scum so etc. Titus, I really, really want to know where you got 'strong townread' from after all of that.

Also I'm going to be paying hella no attention until Friday thanks to food poisoning so super yaaaay. ._.

[Titus]

@Shadoweh,

GiF, through ika's suggested words, claimed doctor to me. Given he took a huge risk in doing so, I highly doubted he was scum. I never explained at the time because I couldn't out the doctor. My play the rest of day 1 was towards getting him information and protecting him. I ahem sucked and he was too obvtown but that's what I was doing.

[Titus]

Oh and as for the Deas statement, I stiill consider that town but FFery fitting her reads to Nacho's.

[Shadoweh]

Spoiler: FFery's last readwall

Nacho's reads list:

Oversoul - Tammy was extremely, extremely town. Oversoul is very, very town. The chances of two players who hate playing scum coming into this slot and towning it up this hard as scum is basically zero

GammaGooey - he came into the game, found his stride and has been strongly strongly town ever since. Nacho doesn't think he can fake that as scum. he's made very townminded pushes several different times, and his reads have been fluid, which is something that takes a lot of effort, care and energy to do as scum. he's not playing in anyone's shadow and he's very deliberately butted heads with us on the specifics of our reads several times. All stuff very difficult to fake as scum, and vanishingly unlikely to come from gammagooey-scum. But, he's kept this up all through the game, even when he's said he feels unmotivated and lost. It's been an emotion, not an excuse.

Cheetory - he's had a phenomenal number of genuine moments in the game. As one example look at his strongarming and frustration at the end of this day, and his questioning of us on Espeonage.

------ above this line will not flip scum -------

singer - her level of engagement here vs in her scum games simply leaves no comparison. it's ridiculous to call this play scum. Additionally, regfan's contributions are far more likely to come from town-reg than scum-reg. since ASOIAF, nacho has approached Empire reads carefully. he found Empire's play to be very town, and his replace out to be stratospheric levels of town. he can't see Zar, who prides himself on his scum game replacing out because of heat from Tammy. Also, don't forget to look at Empire's other replace-out in this contest.

Mastin, the only reason this read isn't in the next-up section is because of your scum read. Without that it would be 100%. With that, Nacho feels it's 95% this slot flips town.

titus - stuff nacho loves about her play: the interactions with Ika through GiF, crumbing her sign to him, telling him he should be townreading her, he loves the way she freaked out about possibly outing Alquin. he feels titus' interactions with mastin wouldn't happen that way if she were scum. he thinks the way she's tried to get mastin and us to agree on a lynch is insanely town. 2352 is a strong town tell. the comment re not getting invited into townblocs is a strong towntell. Telling mastin she's not conftown is a strong town tell. Nacho fully believes scum-titus would be willing to buddy mastin for a seat at the townbloc table, which is exactly what didn't happen. the waffle on singer-scum is a towntell. the only reason to do that is to buddy us, and we're dead in a few hours - no reason to buddy us.

------- gap - more to come --------------

paraphrasing while keeping the full gist takes a lot of time. bear with me.

oh - the only reason titus isn't 100% is because nacho usually has uncertainty in his titus reads. not having uncertainty is ironically a source of small uncertainty.

Next chunk

mastin2 - Nacho has seen this stubborn read-pushing but relatively low engagement style from mastin-town a couple times in recent memory. he's never seen it from mastin-scum. This style of play alienates her from player lists (unless there's a huge contingent of players who know her fairly well) and makes her an easier lynch target. he agrees with me that the incessant crumbing is not something he's seen from her as scum. The mindset behind her "walking deadwoman" posting which, as Regfan has pointed out, only makes it more difficult for her to explain being alive at endgame. In this game, scum-mastin would be aiming to be alive at endgame. Some of

her stranger reads, e.g., Cheetory-scum, singer-scum, DV (nacho disagreed with DV-scum once but not so strongly anymore)

are scumreads that won't be getting lynched anytime soon - not easy to push if scum, and in total alienate her from the rest of the playerlist to some extent. She would be pushing easy mislynches if scum townread. her mindset is quite simply not a scum mindset.

Vezokpiraka - Nacho's main reason for townreading Vezok can't be talked about in this game, but it's there and it's informed this read for much of the game. Vezok tracing TTH to DV is a good towntell. it's possible that the scumteam realized that most players are going to be detecting and thought that tracing and claiming it would look town as fuck, and that this scumteam would and decide to give the tracing results to vezok to claim since he already knew someone's sign . It's possible, but Nacho doesn't find it all that likely. His aggressive push on TTH after the Trace on her, and the continued pushing of her even after he moves off the wagon, and his hostil interactions with mastin after that wagon falls down) also feels very town. When you look at the evolution of his mastin read, it has a surprisingly good progression behind it. (I would call this awesome trajectory!) he doesn't think all of this focus from vezok is something he'd think to fake as scum.

Aronis - I already posted our thoughts on his meta. The way Copper took specific interest in TTH and TTH only ( which was to the point where he encouraged a push initially, and then backed off before the wagon began disintegrating) seemed pretty fucking town. scum!copper expecting TTH to townread him from that interaction alone is unlikely.

Espeonage - Nacho backed off this Espeonage as a scumread mostly for the way that he claimed early, treated his VT claim (attempted to WIFOM scum by claiming his sign, offered to claim Cheetory's sign). Both those interactions follow the cryptic way he's treated his role in other games where he's been engaged as a PR. Nacho also still kinda likes his interaction with Tammy.

Nacho's CDB Read

406 Nacho is pretty sure that CDB was one of the first people to bring up the "let's not Bane #1 scummiest" approach. This fits and makes sense given CDB claiming he's an investigative PR. I love it when you can find early evidence of the mindset that a specific PR should give a town player.

In 920 he reiterates this, and makes a weak towntell into a strong one.

The Westeros push that CDB is somehow scummy because they don't believe town-CES would take a position about vezok being hard to read when he's actually pretty transparent. Reasons why this doesn't look scum motivated - there is no real scum motivation for scum-CDB to bane vezok rather than anyone else. And, scum-CES wouldn't lie ab out a player being unreadable because it's a dumb thing to lie about.

We've talked already about CDB's push on Empire about lack of empathy looking town. Nacho has done some meta research looking at CDB's emotions in scumgames and still feels this is a type of emotional manipulation that he can't easily see coming from scum-CDB.

His questions about whether to out Aronis's sign before he died was also very town.

CDB is holding the same top 5 townreads Gestalt does, and this feels good. Even more so because he talks about having a LOT of confidence in his townreads but not a lot of confidence in his scumreads. That's how we're feeling about the game as well.


Overall, CDB is a strong townread for Nacho.

TTH - Nacho thinks that 1486 seems like a strange approach to take to the game for tth-scum. it's a hell of a claim to make and she could have at least tried to fight off the wagon without claiming and locking herself into a potentially bad situation on day 2. and yet, she didn't even so much as try. Her scumhunting isn't particularly terrible, though it'd be great if she was more engaged than she has been. her comment on DV's lynch pool is decent. #2492 as a reiteration of her power looks town as shit. Anti's reachout to mastin because of townread looks pretty town. Also, turning on her strongest defender (mastin) is additionally very town, and a town defender is not something a scum player would want to put at risk. behaviorally, the attitude she's put into the thread so far does make sense from a player who expects to be confirmed town eventually.

Even if she doesn't confirm herself tomorrow, nacho wouldn't immediately lynch her. scum roleblockers and such are a thing after all.

Nacho's shadoweh read.

he doesn't understand the scum-purpose of Shadoweh's beginning to sort-of push on Tammy in 207. Scum-Shadoweh knows that she is probably expected to townread Tammy and knows that implying Tammy is scum is going to bring Tammy's ire in her direction. Scum-Shadoweh also wouldn't going get any towncred from a push at all if she immediately backs off. Which she did.

Her push on singer actually looks like a decent and natural response to defend a townread in that way, Titus is a strange player to for shadoweh to buddy up to because even when Titus was being mostly townread she didn't have a large amount of sway. Nacho very much liked the #3 paragraph of 1904, especially the bit about "you won't be lynching me today".

This post by Shadoweh also feels quite town. It's also a good point: Nacho feels like CDB's worst scumread was Shadoweh because it was formed for apparently no reason. Nacho doesn't think scum would be likely to raise hell with someone because they forgot to include them in a scumlist.

Shadoweh's apology to Espy in 2688 seems pretty solid and town.

Oh. You picked one of my only friends playing left. I wish I could disagree that big post felt weird.

Nacho didn't see this post before now, but holy shit it reads so town.

Going to a STRONG townread when Dan started reacting feels nice and in line with our own thoughts. so do most of the interactions with Dan in general.

Nacho kinda started this reread with the mindset that maybe he was only townreading Shadoweh because he likes Shadoweh as a person but going through her posts he now feels pretty strongly about her being town. he's come away with a good read on her instead of one of those "oh I think she's town here are reasons she's town" conf-bias reads. NACHO BELIEVES!

No, FFery had DV as town, calling a scumread on DV "strange".

>__> I'm asking about DV, not GiF.
Edit: That readwall is Nacho's and that comment is from Nacho, so no, I'm pretty sure that's not what it was?