Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[vezokpiraka]

I think doing exactly the opposite of what mastin says and does is correct play.

[Titus]

Am I the only one who sits down and thinks about the actions of both town and scum to determine the most objective action? :S

You are the only one who doesn't apply occam's razor.

Why in the name of whatever you curse at would I come forth as scum saying I traced someone who is confirmed town? Do you think I have a death wish as scum?

I suppose both town and scum are equally capable of doing Occam's Razor.

Town you would need to need to disclose that since massclaiming traces and detects is stupid.
Scum you would want to claim that in advance in case someone traced you.

Occam's Razor says that claim's more likely to come from scum.

If someone traced him, he wouldn't have gotten a result from TTH, which he would've known when TTH claimed to have not gotten a result. Unless you're implying that there's a really awkward trace circle going around.

And...didn't you claim to have detected on minor night one? Occam's razor says you're scum.

Nah, because I didn't detect minor night 2. I traced. I only detected because I wanted to get signs to the doctor. My claim's already written. Note everything I said with Occam's Razor is "suggests" not confirms for a reason. Night actions must be figured out by what a player actually does.

[ActionDan]

rubbing your nipples

how did he know?!?

I can't in good concious do that when espeonage is alive and kicking. UT has a decent chance of flipping scum, but espeonage will actually do that.

[Oversoul]

Ok. Mastin can be town too.

[singersigner]

@Titus...iou wanted to get signs to the doctor, why did you support a lynch on the person whose sign you had just narrowed down?

[Oversoul]

Oversoul I think you're confusing innattentiveness and tbf a general lack of care and thoroughness for actual scum motivation.

List out the assumptions you're making for Espeonage deciding to claim that, in that particular way, as scum.

-He's aware that people might think him detecting Cheet might look scummy (he says this in one of his posts)
-If he's scum, he chose to do that action for a particular reason. There are a rare few instances but going into a game and deciding "I'm going to do something that doesn't benefit OR harm me at all and then claim that as a gambit" isn't something that is ordinary for damn good reason.
-So why do it then- do you think that he thought he would be townread by claiming it? I don't see why, especially when he's saying that he knows other people could see it as scummy
-Do you think he claimed it to cover up an action that benefits scum? If he's worried enough to claim it in case people traced him, why do that action instead of trying to get traced visiting someone that looks scummy, and possibly influencing their read that way? What motivation would scum have to detect someone, then immediately claim that detect, making it look much worse for Esp-scum if Cheet dies soon, especially when Esp's already claimed VT and can't visit Cheet himself without worrying about being caught scum?

Like there are a few kind of outlandish ways that would make it possible for scum to benefit from it and make it worth it for Esp to claim it, but actually thinking that they're the most likely possibilities seems pretty wrong to me.

And I think we've all had games where we lunged after a lynch because someone was just too bad and was making too many poor decisions to be town and then had be wrong. It's a reasonable suspicion but I don't think he's trying to get away with anything here, I think he just made some stupid assumptions on how the detects would work and ran with it, and I still think his suspicions on Tammy and Titus were coming from town.

I'm trusting you on this, Gamma

ActionDan and Mastin, we will get to your options after we deal with UT, ok?

[Titus]

@Titus...iou wanted to get signs to the doctor, why did you support a lynch on the person whose sign you had just narrowed down?

GiF was refusing to solve the crumb, as such my notification was not going through and I had developed a scumread on TSO, not my favorite but still there and I wanted a lynch to get my reads moving. Mastina and FFery, the two townleaders I had agreed. If GiF had shown any indication of townreading TSO and having solved my message, I would not have.

[singersigner]

Why did you want GiF to protect TSO as opposed to Mastin, or yourself, or Shadoweh? It looks like you were starting to scumread TSO, so much as to argue against the Boon on him, before Minor Night 1 where you would've done your action, so why the change of heart? Why not allow TSO to have the boon if you were going to detect him to crumb his sign to allow GiF to protect him?

[Titus]

My flip reveals people as scum. ika tends to townread people I'm scumreading and I do like a modicum of conflict around me. It keeps me from being buddied as hard. TSO wasn't a big scumread and someone ika may have wanted healed. I was trying to detect the signs ika would find useful, not what I would do as doctor as I can't force ika to make smart decisions.

[Titus]

I'm still waiting on your read on anyone who isn't a lurker or me Singer. The more you stall and redirect from the fact you aren't scumhunting, the more I want you lynched.

[singersigner]

My flip reveals people as scum. ika tends to townread people I'm scumreading and I do like a modicum of conflict around me. It keeps me from being buddied as hard. TSO wasn't a big scumread and someone ika may have wanted healed. I was trying to detect the signs ika would find useful, not what I would do as doctor as I can't force ika to make smart decisions.

You're telling me that you were trying to feed someone not actually in this game (ika) information on someone that they haven't actually given a comprehensive read on (TSO) over someone that they were actively and publicly townreading (you/Mastin)?

I'm still waiting on your read on anyone who isn't a lurker or me Singer. The more you stall and redirect from the fact you aren't scumhunting, the more I want you lynched.

That's fine. I 100% would love to see you

actually

try to get me lynched instead of just threatening to do so.

[TellTaleHeart]

Show us some scum motivation, not just "he's being a meaniehead"

That's some pathetic nonsense, dude

There's scum motivation behind being constantly pissed off at the state of things and people sheeping ffery's reads, which I think is an overstated problem anyway, but then not actually contributing to a change in direction. It's a sentiment that's pretty easy to dress up as "townish." If you're always playing the malcontent, then none of the bad stuff that's happened is your fault. It's all those idiots that just won't listen to you. Except you make sure they don't really have a reason to listen to you because you don't actually say anything about what should happen instead. You're sabotaging yourself and staying on the periphery because otherwise you might actually have to be held accountable for your opinions and where they lead.

[Titus]

Singer, ika and I go way back and have our own language. If I had the same relationship with Mastina, I would have detected last night. I don't. If I can selectively tell information to the slot I believe to be the doctor, you bet your ass that I will indeed do that. Mastina and I both were under heat. Scum killing us would have given the town information. I made a judgment call as to who the best player was to check that night.

I'm still waiting on you to scumhunt instead of nitpick. A read on anyone.

=============

@TTH, I'm still waiting on your response to my town!Bulba case.

[Oversoul]

Again, this is borderline cheating.
Cryptography, trust tells - whatever IT is, stop it. You don't need to get mod killed Titus.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm. Getting. To. It. @_@

Now that you understand why I give players the reads I do, now we're going to look at the specific posts from Bulba's ISO that give me similar feelings about him.

You probably could've stopped right there because we've already come to a fundamental disagreement in our systems. I used to look for consistency in opinions and logic systems and all, but I gradually stopped believing in that simply because

scum strive to be as consistent as possible.

It makes sense if you think about it for a minute. Changing your mind when there's not a readily apparent and compelling reason involves drawing a lot of scrutiny and is often taken as a sign of weakness in conviction. It's relatively easy to maintain and it gives people security because they feel less threatened by predictability. Consistency feels good.

But the sense of security it gives is illusory simply because it works so well in advancing the scum win condition.

[Oversoul]

Shadoweh lurking is disconcerting too.

[DeasVail]

Right now will be for reading the remainder of the thread. The weekend will be for extra stuff.

Ok I think I'm wrong on Shadoweh too. That's fun!

Why.

I've read up and there's not much I want to say except people want to lynch me, woooo, and I'm pretty ok with a boon of CDB.

Why are you okay with a boon on CDB if in your last post you said that "you weren't going to touch him right now" in terms of your read on him? How can you be casually okay with booning someone you have no read on?

Duplicate. One member of Annihilation may use the same Active ability twice each Major Night. This ability is Locked, and cannot be used until the Lock is removed.

If scum has this, then the unlockable VT would likely have to have this as well. Otherwise, scumTTH would have to guess that there would be something that would conftown her on minorD2, would have to have gotten lucky that we didn't choose to unlock the ability and get CC-ed and then guess that the ability would be hidden to the VT who would get unlocked.
I find it hard to believe all of that would just prettily fall into the hands of scum.

I actually forget why I thought Shadoweh was town, but I'm sure there was a decent reason for it. If you're actually interested then I'll re-ISO her again over the weekend and find it, but if you're just asking me because you think I'm scum and you've got some grand idea of ~pressuring the scummy scum scumz~ or something then I'd kind of rather not if no one's really interested in lynching Shadow anyway!

By not touching CDB I mean not lynching him. I don't think it's necessary to state a read on someone I'm not interested in lynching nor is anyone else iirc. And I was obviously ok with booning him.

DV you're being a little ego centric. But TTH thinking you're a high priority kill makes sense for her detect if she is a watcher.

You're probably right about this, and it's not a top concern of mine for now. But I hate the idea of scum being widely considered confirmed town for flawed reasoning, and it was the lack of two kills that made it a concern of mine (I have extra role-related reasoning for my concern, but it doesn't strengthen my potential suspicion of TTH enough to be worth discussing).

Why would TTH think DV is a high priority kill given the amount of suspicion DV is under?

When she detected me I was supertown.

"More read stuff." There's not a whole lot of commitment to your reads. >_>

Why isn't my alignment important right now? What concerned you about my posting at the end of Major Day 1?
Cheetory already asked this but what are you wrong about with regards to Shadoweh?
Are you speculating on TTH's alignment based on the fact that you're not dead?
Why do you think Titus is town? Could you find time to comment on my recent posts about her when you're more caught up?

1. Choosing my wording to pick on is a bit strange considering that there are so many better things to pick on in my post!
2. Your alignment isn't important right now because I don't want to lynch you. I was concerned about how you posted yet didn't vote for Espeonage.
3. I think I was wrong about thinking she was scum.
4. No, I'm speculating based on the fact that there is only one person dead and not two. I have no doubt that scum would consider keeping me alive even if they had originally planned to kill me.
5. I could, and what was once a really strong townread has faded a fair bit with Titus considering what I've skimmed of her latest posts. It'll be one of the things I focus on this weekend.

You are a high priority kill or you are not? You just said both. You're also putting a lot more assumptions into your theory for keeping me in the lynch pool than you're suggesting.

I don't get why what I'm saying is so hard to understand. I was a high-priority kill during minor night 1. I wasn't any time after that.

Yes, simple and basic mathematics.
The sign mechanic gives a 1/3 chance of guessing the sign correctly and given 3 unmakes, calculating the expected number of kills in any given night yield a value of... one.

Now of course there are things like the detect mechanism and protective (or other killstopping) roles that influence the probabilities slightly but the rough estimate should be pretty close to the actual and it was likely by hito's design.

If all the scum can detect, then they're able to guarantee two successful unmakes (they could each detect a player twice and have their sign narrowed down to one possibility), and considering the two lynches I think the game would be unbalanced if they didn't have this option. I have no idea what more they could have to help them out.

Also DV, make no mistake.

I'm getting you lynched today.

Ok!

@DV, Speculating about yourself being a nightkill is worthless. Provide something actually useful. I was townreading you but my patience has worn incredibly thin with the time you're spending blathering about theory, without any sort of practical conclusion to be drawn their from. It's empty posting. You've went this entire time without even commenting on the boon which is a waste.

Titus. Please stop. The reasons you give for losing your townread of me don't make any sense considering your experience with me and remind of Teen Wolf where you were scumreading me for not having my 'town pizzazz'. Anyone that plays with me-scum knows that it's scum that has the pizzazz and town that totally doesn't, so should I be as reminded of Teen Wolf as I'm being right now? And I did comment on the boon what?

Then replace out. Seriously. I don't want people to lynch a spot just cause he lurks. That is not fun for any team that player is on.

This is team mafia and I want all slots at their bests.

This game being so long is the main reason I haven't replaced out and I think I'm going to be able to be reasonably involved in the game, just not at the level that people would most like. I understand that you want all slots at their best and I wish that too, but I don't think that's very possible for my slot at the moment. There's no reason for me to get lynched for lurking considering that I was engaged with the game for a substantial period of time and should be quite readable from that!

hi dv the reason why you look so bad is because you keep saying sorry instead of just playing the game, which admittedly probably isn't scumtastic, but i mean im getting a little impatient with how much you're pulling that card and it's starting to look more like a schtick than an actual thing.
speaking of which, you just said sorry instead of answering my questions and other people's questions to you.
zzzzz.

That's how it is Cheetory.

--

Would prefer not to lynch UT today!

VOTE: DV
Shall we dance?

Sorry, I'm not great at dancing.

I think DV's apologetic "I am sorry I am not here pls forgive me"ness every single post he makes is a schtick and I'm arguably more tired of it than I am UT's dickishness.

If I could do something other than this as scum, do you think I would, or not?

Pretty sure ffery was saying we should lynch DV btw.

To be fair, her scumread on me was based on my townreading Espe being sudden which it wasn't at all, so unless you think that my townreading of Espe was sudden, please don't sheep that.

And Titus, Ffery obviously didn't have me as town.

I haven't pushed DV for jack shit. I'm voting for pressure.

What are you expecting to result from this pressure?

I'm becoming more partial to DV's lynch

Why?

I don't get the Titus hate.

I have experience with her saying the complete nonsensical as scum, so I'm now really concerned about her alignment, but this happens to some degree when she's town too. She is one of my top priorities for re-reading since I considered her a strong townread for most of the game.

--

And just as a general thing, I get that people have problems with me apologising and not doing more than that. That's fair enough. But the fact is that if my life is busy to the point where I don't have the time to be actively caught up and reading the game, I'm going to apologise about it and you can call me scum, lazy, whatever, but you're going to be wrong about the scum part and while the lazy part probably would have been true a week or two ago, the last ~week I've been actually incapable of spending more time than I have on this game, so yes, I'm sorry about it and I'm not going to not say so because you don't like it when I'm over-apologetic. Right now, at this point in time, I'm pretty damn motivated to get back into this. I will do it when I can.

[TellTaleHeart]

Spoiler: Details

#352 - #357 and the exchange that followed regarding Mastina being town versus Mastina being scum over not posting is a very good position there. He's not whiteknighting Mastina but he's stating things that he believed to explain Town!Mastina. At the time, I disagreed with that read, but he explained it in a logical concise manner. His response to "nail Mastina to the floor" indicates a willingness to change his mind if he was wrong. Such posts indicate a person changing their opinion based on incoming facts rather than sticking to a narrative.

I found the exchange pretty dry and uninformative. Bulba simply stated a pretty easily verified fact, "mastin's not posting anywhere." Willingness to change his mind doesn't really tell me much because that's not a particularly aggressive or risky stance to take. I don't see it as anything scum wouldn't do.

#657, The interaction here with DV feels natural and mirrors my attempts to sync up with my townreads. Neither Bulba nor myself are emotional players, so the fact he's pushing DV to explain his reads in terms he understands is good. A scum player can just dismiss those reads because they lack "evidence" and its what I would expect a logic based scumplayer to do.

I don't think you accurately described the "interaction," and I don't even think it qualifies as an interaction. Nor do I think "interaction" means anything. I think the post actually did contain a hefty amount of dismissiveness.

#927 Bulbazak attempts to dismantle a meta foundation of my read, which is unlikely (but still possible) to come from scum. He didn't deny the facts I was using but provided real life context that I didn't have when saying that I thought even Bulba's meta was consistent with him being town.

As soon as you admit it's possible to come from scum, it's a bad point. Next.

#1207 I like the resistance to group!think, even though I like Marquis (now FormerFish) as town. Forming a group of people who all think each other are town, and eventually agree on a scumread after discussion is one thing. Following group think is a bad idea.

He also expresses the fact that many of his townreads are townreading his scumread, but doesn't actually outright change his read on Vezok. Again, townpoints for the observation but not outright moving of his read.

It. Cuts. Both. Ways.
If you're scum, you already

know

what cases of groupthink are ill-fated. That's not to say that everyone who calls out groupthink is scum. I'm saying it doesn't make you town. Also, conservative play nets no townpoints for me.

1375 looks like genuine frustration over being ignored.

"Genuine emotion is not a towntell."
I don't know how many times Antihero's told me that. Regardless, it happens to be true.

1540 makes sense as Mollie plays in a more frustrating, get under people's skin and see what shakes rather than pure logic. Mollie doing a reaction test through Bulba feels genuine. Mollie's much better at the early game, where there's less to go on. Versus me where I tend to be better at the end. So a reaction test from her makes sense.

I will need to consult with Antihero about this since he knows pirate mollie a

lot

better than I do. I'll get back with you shortly.

[Gammagooey]

This is me reminding everyone that UT still hasn't come up with anything about why my posts were scummy after bullshitting that I looked bad for voting him

Also that CDB's very right about his tone being off

Both scum and town UT tend to be a pretty content light, at least early on

but town UT is biting and witty and giving people shit for being bad players

while

attacking people and pursuing his reads

whereas UT here is being bitchy and giving people shit as a filler to take the place of actual thoughts and content.

[TellTaleHeart]

Why would TTH think DV is a high priority kill given the amount of suspicion DV is under?

I don't get why what I'm saying is so hard to understand. I was a high-priority kill during minor night 1. I wasn't any time after that.

You both seem to be operating under the same faulty assumption. On Minor Night 1, I was targeting someone I thought would be a

delayed

kill since I knew I wouldn't be able to use my watch until Major Night 2 at the earliest (remember the lock?). I thought DV was competent and fairly likely to be town at the time but he was also very low impact and lurky. At that point I was trying to fortune tell and see who would most likely draw a kill one night out.

[DeasVail]

I don't remember being very low-impact or lurky until after minor night one, but I may be wrong. In any case, I'm not overly concerned about you right now. It was just a thought I had.

[TellTaleHeart]

Well, hon, you thought wrong.

[singersigner]

Singer, ika and I go way back and have our own language. If I had the same relationship with Mastina, I would have detected last night. I don't. If I can selectively tell information to the slot I believe to be the doctor, you bet your ass that I will indeed do that. Mastina and I both were under heat. Scum killing us would have given the town information. I made a judgment call as to who the best player was to check that night.

I'm still waiting on you to scumhunt instead of nitpick. A read on anyone.

TSO was also under a bit of heat by the point, so I'm talking about the town reads both you and GiF had in common. Can you point out exactly where you felt like you were crumbing to Ika and how? Scum killing anyone gives the town information and the information I'm getting is that you knew GiF was the doctor and made it a priority to kill him.

And I'm still waiting on you to tell me/everyone why I'm scum. I've given the reads that are pertinent right now. I've given reads list, in fact. Not much has changed other than what I've stated outright in thread. If you're going to get haughty over me not reading your posts or being "lazy" for asking you to point things out, and then not do your own research, that just makes you look bad, not me.

Preview Edit:
Damn, TTH...that sucks... >_> lol.

@UT...are you at least willing to humor Gamma/the rest of the people who are interested in lynching you right now? I'm not gunna lie, I'm not going to be willing to avoid your lynch for long.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm not gunna lie, I'm not going to be willing to avoid your lynch for long.

I'm kind of wondering why you're doing it now.
Why are you doing it now?

[Untrod Tripod]

I would have done it today, because I'm being a total bitch right now by not providing content, but my internet is out and I dont want to do a pbpa with my phone. So. Tomorrow, hopefully.