Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Oversoul]

Singer, literally no one thought that GiF was a doctor. Why would Titus volunteer that information? It makes no sense.
Scum, unless they are super cheeky fucks like Mastin, or Fate, or someone cheeky as scum, do not volunteer information like that.

It is like Bulba said. Scum keep their mouths shut. I think GiF died because the scum had his sign. Plain and simple.

[Titus]

@Oversoul, if I was a neighborizer, I would so be neighborizing you, for the sole purpose of trying to convey to you how I think. I was frankly pretty bummed when Empire subbed out considering he's had similar training on how to approach problems and I haven't played many games with him. My play has evolved since Dr. Who, more of abandoning what I suck at unless I have nothing else to go off of.

So you think that your style of play is based on your training as a lawyer/law school?

Yes, and a little computer programming training. Lawyering is about finding clear and concise rules and applying them. Emotional basis is largely absent and detached. Things that are true are withheld because they are more likely to cause people to think something is true, without it actually being true. My stance on meta (prior good/bad acts) is much similar to that in US jurisprudence. If something is more likely to mislead, then to actually help, then don't use it. That's why I still listen to meta arguments but I'm largely dismissive unless they relate to personality. Someone's acts in another game can easily mislead us one way or the other. US Common law tends to be built on a basis of caselaw that creates a basis of rules. My VCA is an attempt to boil those actions to a calculation to determine what scum will do and when, more importantly how they will vote and when.

The Socratic method is also a useful tool for persuasion and for being persuaded. It's also how to determine if I will town or scumread someone. First, find out what the elements are a person uses to define their reads. My behavior reads are logical validity (not soundness, someone could believe something I wholeheartedly disagree with them on, if their position makes sense), town/scum benefit (who benefits more by pushing/doing an action), passion, mental transparency (are they hiding anything), and survival over pursuit. Meta plays a part to define personality. I know this leads me to conflict with emotion based players who just try to fit everything into a worldview without actually listening to facts. I consider it a flaw if I'm wrong on a tunnel, because that means I have a bad fact or a was persuaded of something that wasn't true.

Lurkers and people who refuse to engage in a dialogue are the most frustrating for this reason. I cannot engage in the mental chessmatch to determine alignment. Singer's refusal to actually engage me on any read but me is part of the reason I am struggling with her.

[singersigner]

I'm not refusing anything. I know you're scum but you should really stop putting words in people's mouths.

Who do you need me to explain my read on? Would you be willing to show me the same courtesy (finally) and explain your read on me (finally)?

@Oversoul...yes, why would Titus begin discussion on why GiF was killed? Why would she offer TSO's "not sign" heavily implying she was some sort of PR which one could only assume was to maybe draw the nightkill question mark? In which case why wouldn't she then try to crumb her own sign after publicly outing this fact question mark? Why would she then speculate on how scum was setting her up with literally nothing to back that up at ALL as she was literally the FIRST PERSON TO EVEN SUGGEST IT AS THOUGH IT WAS PREMEDITATED OR SOMETHING? Why does Titus town or scum do ANY of these things?

[Titus]

Bulba, why do you dislike those three people?

As I said in my previous post, there's something really off about Vezok. Call it gut, call it whatever, but I'm really not seeing a town thought process from him and every fiber of my being is telling me that he's scum here. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm still not seeing it. Cheetory is due to the fact that I'm having a hard time sorting him. I'm not saying he's scum, but I don't think he's town bloc material. Singer is focusing on nitpicky things to push while not trying to figure out thought process or motivation. She's using it as a way to make it look like she's scumhunting, but you'll notice that everything about it is off. Like I said, it reminds me of what Nacho does as scum.

I'm just going to say this now...

I am using the same reasoning to scum read Espeonage and to town read Vezok. They both claimed to be Vanilla Townies, yet both of them took different actions the first minor night.

As a vanilla townie, almost *no* reason exists to Detect. Especially on the FIRST Minor night. Sure, Espeonage thought he would "gain" a special power for it, or whatever excuse he used, but I don't buy it.

Spoiler: Espeonage Detect-gate

fery is a VT so there's nothing she can do by detecting sign. Tammy is my next-in-line townread.

Ok that's interesting. I thought I was a VT. :/

Which is part of why I was cool with creating wifom about my sign.

So not everyone has the universal powers that were in the op?

Tammy is still a bad pick.

Why would I be a bad pick even if you were town reading.

And why would the town need to recover from correctly town reading me?

Don't understand you.

FFery should pick the boon person or the boon pool we vote in. We know scum cannot influence uf she picks directly.

Ok that's interesting. I thought I was a VT. :/

Which is part of why I was cool with creating wifom about my sign.

So not everyone has the universal powers that were in the op?

Tammy is still a bad pick.

Ffery was stripped of hers. She's a treestump with a finite lifespan, not a VT.

Whoever gets the boon is going to be a target for Mafia.

So I think everyone needs to unvote. And then everyone needs to vote if they are ok with being booned. It spreads confusion for mafia over who is a PR and it also gives mafia wifom over if it is actually a good idea to go after whoever gets booned.

I don't want to see any votes on someone that hasn't said they are ok with being booned.

This is ridiculous. It is to literally nobody's advantage to claim anything other than being OK with being booned. PRs want it, VTs want to help cover the PRs, scum want to look like one of the above.

I have a feeling I might need to actually read the thread.

All of these posts happened within a short time frame from one another and to any *reasonable* person should have cleared up the confusion that Espeonage had. Yet, he STILL chose to Detect a universal town read on the first Minor Night. That is suspicious as fuck.

Vezok, as a VT, TRACED someone who he thought was scummy (TTH) trying to figure them out. If Vezok thought TTH could make herself town, why would he trace her? Why wouldn't he try to detect her and then subsequently kill her?

That is why I think Vezok is town and I am suspicious of Espeonage.
I have a strong town read on Gamma after rereading his play. He is vying for Espeonage so I am willing to let that read go to the back burner for now. Realistically, no VTs should be detecting to begin with. They should ALL be trying to trace people, unless they are trying to catch someone in an outright lie about the sign during a claim.

Vezok's not actually concerned about his appearance with claiming the track. If you're aware of a damning fact, that you believe will come out anyway, then sharing it is the most logical move for scum. The actions may have been planned with the intent of just blocking TTH's track. If Vezok's track actually failed, he knows someone likely tracked him, and would be put in a position to claim the track early. Beat the punch if you will. It's no use getting signs if you're not around to actually kill those players.

I agree with your points on Espy.

[Titus]

I'm not refusing anything. I know you're scum but you should really stop putting words in people's mouths.

Who do you need me to explain my read on? Would you be willing to show me the same courtesy (finally) and explain your read on me (finally)?

@Oversoul...yes, why would Titus begin discussion on why GiF was killed? Why would she offer TSO's "not sign" heavily implying she was some sort of PR which one could only assume was to maybe draw the nightkill question mark? In which case why wouldn't she then try to crumb her own sign after publicly outing this fact question mark? Why would she then speculate on how scum was setting her up with literally nothing to back that up at ALL as she was literally the FIRST PERSON TO EVEN SUGGEST IT AS THOUGH IT WAS PREMEDITATED OR SOMETHING? Why does Titus town or scum do ANY of these things?

I did actually crumb my own sign to GiF. When he asked for it. He was ignoring my first crumb, and you're action was to expect me to then follow up with my own sign. I'm not going to follow up immediately on my crumbs when GiF and ika tell me they are too convoluted to follow. If it ever becomes an issue, I can highlight my crumbs, which do include my roleclaim.

[Oversoul]

Why does Titus town or scum do ANY of these things?

I have no good answer for that. It seems illogical from both alignments. Unless there is a puppeteer dictating her actions? I don't think that is how she plays as scum though.

[singersigner]

I'm 100% amazed at the way Titus is talking about Vezok's outward admittance of something he did/noticed as scum while people are claiming hers is town. Fucking. Un. Real.

[Oversoul]

Although I think Singer is being stubborn with the Titus read. Her own teammates really do not support her read on Titus and she is clearly in the minority here. We should just lynch Untrod "Does not Scumhunt" Tripod and then try to build connections from there.

[Titus]

Why does Titus town or scum do ANY of these things?

I have no good answer for that. It seems illogical from both alignments. Unless there is a puppeteer dictating her actions? I don't think that is how she plays as scum though.

It's perfectly logical from my perspective.

If you take the assumption that both alignments generally should hide their actions on living players but out them on the dead (to prevent fakeclaims), then my actions make sense. I claim to have detected TSO and have the evidence to back that up. Now, we have information regarding the TSO's sign (one less thing scum can manipulate) and verification of my actions.

I generally win as scum, because I play a game of selective revelation of information. Only reveal what is necessary to get others to think the world is the way you want them to see it. Town, meanwhile, should reveal any information that does not mislead regarding alignments (unless it outs PRs or somesuch). So I feel that anyone who tracked/detected the dead guys should claim that as it creates a whole picture.

My town game setup/information wise is structured to counter the game I feel is optimal for the scumteam.

[Titus]

Although I think Singer is being stubborn with the Titus read. Her own teammates really do not support her read on Titus and she is clearly in the minority here. We should just lynch Untrod "Does not Scumhunt" Tripod and then try to build connections from there.

This. x 10000.

[Titus]

**tracked detected the dead guy, well if it didn't out the PRs that is what they should do. A visit on the dead guy, but no track or detect should be claimed. (Meaning: Minor Night 1, visited TSO.)

[Oversoul]

I don't mean to be disparaging to you Singer. I am probably coming across as dismissive and I don't mean to be. I am just much more certain on UT being scum than Titus. Plus, UT is a practical option and Titus isn't at the moment. This game needs death. Not more discussion.

[singersigner]

I'm starting to feel like Titus is avoiding commenting on a case on me because she knows that if she starts engaging in a case v case that people have to choose between, she'll have to account for all of the things people are missing by the sheer volume of our engagement. I wish I could say that ignoring her will let people just read what I have to say about her, but I'm afraid she'll spam over it.

I'm vote parking on Titus until people come back and actually convince me why I should be scumreading anyone else right now.

[Titus]

@Singer, I've already told you what I need to start forming a read on you. That is, I need to see how you're thinking about other players in the game and scumhunt. Repeating that I'm scum over and over and fitting all facts into that worldview is NOT scumhunting. Scumhunting is the act of determining someone's alignment, not assuming it and tunnelling, despite your townreads and allegedly your teammates telling you otherwise. I am attempting to engage in discussion regarding cases, and you are invited as well. You just have to articulate reads and engage the group on something other than Madame Trenchcoat... bleh that's totally a good alt name.

[Titus]

**I'm presuming you're reading me as the only scum here.

[singersigner]

Have it your way. I'll make sure to keep people accountable for it later, though. I know I'm just being obnoxious about it, and probably the worst person to play with right now, I'm just tired of being beaten off by the three-ish people who are scumreading me right now, and anyone town reading me is either ignoring everything I have to say or just like "oh poor misguided singer."

unvote
vote: FormerFish

This is something my whole team can get behind right now.

[Titus]

Why can they get behind it Singer? What are their thoughts on UT?

What are your thoughts on FF and UT?

[vezokpiraka]

@Oversoul, if I was a neighborizer, I would so be neighborizing you, for the sole purpose of trying to convey to you how I think. I was frankly pretty bummed when Empire subbed out considering he's had similar training on how to approach problems and I haven't played many games with him. My play has evolved since Dr. Who, more of abandoning what I suck at unless I have nothing else to go off of.

So you think that your style of play is based on your training as a lawyer/law school?

Yes, and a little computer programming training. Lawyering is about finding clear and concise rules and applying them. Emotional basis is largely absent and detached. Things that are true are withheld because they are more likely to cause people to think something is true, without it actually being true. My stance on meta (prior good/bad acts) is much similar to that in US jurisprudence. If something is more likely to mislead, then to actually help, then don't use it. That's why I still listen to meta arguments but I'm largely dismissive unless they relate to personality. Someone's acts in another game can easily mislead us one way or the other. US Common law tends to be built on a basis of caselaw that creates a basis of rules. My VCA is an attempt to boil those actions to a calculation to determine what scum will do and when, more importantly how they will vote and when.

The Socratic method is also a useful tool for persuasion and for being persuaded. It's also how to determine if I will town or scumread someone. First, find out what the elements are a person uses to define their reads. My behavior reads are logical validity (not soundness, someone could believe something I wholeheartedly disagree with them on, if their position makes sense), town/scum benefit (who benefits more by pushing/doing an action), passion, mental transparency (are they hiding anything), and survival over pursuit. Meta plays a part to define personality. I know this leads me to conflict with emotion based players who just try to fit everything into a worldview without actually listening to facts. I consider it a flaw if I'm wrong on a tunnel, because that means I have a bad fact or a was persuaded of something that wasn't true.

Lurkers and people who refuse to engage in a dialogue are the most frustrating for this reason. I cannot engage in the mental chessmatch to determine alignment. Singer's refusal to actually engage me on any read but me is part of the reason I am struggling with her.

You're the kind of person who thinks every little accident has malicious intent behind it.
Break a vase? You were upset at what I brought you 5 years ago. Trip over a cable? You were annoyed I spend too much time on the internet and wanted to make me leave it.

[Titus]

Sort of, but not to that extreme. There's a rule of legal interpretation, which I'll paraphrase. Try to interpret any statute to give every word meaning unless that would be absurd. I do the same here in the game. That doesn't mean the first scenario is accurate, but I'm more inclined to believe someone in the abstract could "passive aggressively" knock out an internet cord to disrupt someone spending to much time.

[singersigner]

Ok well here:

Cheetory
Oversoul
Vezok
CDB
Mastin
------------->line of OH SO TOWN
Shadoweh
TTH
Aronis
UT
------------->line of lynchability
AD
Espy
Bulb
FF
DV
------------->scum
TItus

That's where I, personally, am at. You can feel free to engage with me about any or all of my reads regardless of the transparency with them that I've already given freely.

Preview Edit:
Re: FF...his catch up was shallow (which is why I was surprised Bulb found it good), and speckled with excuses and inactivity. He's been a non-presence this game. Regfan didn't have a town read on Marquis, even though I did until he started AtEing it up. I just find his presence lackluster for agreeing to replace into a large game. He basically needs to show up or we're taking it at face-value of disengaged scum.
Re: UT...well I've already given my thoughts on his play with regards to it not being alignment indicative. I will lynch for a flip but not finding anything particularly outstanding in the ways of UTscum. They agree.

[Titus]

Why is UT's nonpresence better than FF's nonpresence? FF has given some content, even if you don't find it to be good. Same with DV. UT is indicating here's here and just laughing at us.

Why did you skip over DV and go to vote FF instead, when you might actually be able to swing a wagon on DV?

Are you at all concerned that your hyper aggressive nature of posting everything I do as scum is actually turning people off to your case and making hard for players to engage in the game?

[singersigner]

Have it your way. I'll make sure to keep people accountable for it later, though.

I know I'm just being obnoxious about it, and probably the worst person to play with right now,

I'm just tired of being beaten off by the three-ish people who are scumreading me right now, and anyone town reading me is either ignoring everything I have to say or just like "oh poor misguided singer."

[quote="In post 4987, "singersigner"]I'm starting to feel like Titus is avoiding commenting on a case on me because she knows that if she starts engaging in a case v case that people have to choose between, she'll have to account for all of the things people are missing by the sheer volume of our engagement.

I wish I could say that ignoring her will let people just read what I have to say about her, but I'm afraid she'll spam over it.

[/quote]
Um, yes...? I feel like I got sucked into exactly what I hated about you when I replaced in. I even said that at one point along the way. I think it's really easy for scum to hide in the midst of such spammy posting, and my biggest concern about you is that you will respond to me first (especially while I've been trying to engage with other people about my findings on you), and essentially thwart off any effort by anyone else to engage in what I have to say.

With regards to UT...he's actually been pretty present in the game. He hasn't posted much content at all, but I think he's reads are constantly evolving. He's being really transparent and not afraid to change his mind, which I've also already said is hard for scum to fake.

With regards to voting FF...because I initially had a townread of DV, so if I'm wrong, I'd like to give him the opportunity to show me I was right in the first place. I think FF has had ample time to come back and engage in the game, but he hasn't. I think either wagons are likely, though, so I would probably vote either one. People are just more afraid to vote for lurkers because they "just might be wrong" about them, but ever since the Baltomeet Invitational, I'm a firm believer in lynch-all-lurkers, and kick myself whenever I don't follow through with it and they end up being scum.

[singersigner]

EBWOP:

Cheetory
Oversoul
Vezok
CDB
Mastin
------------->line of OH SO TOWN
Shadoweh
TTH
Aronis
UT

Gamma

------------->line of lynchability
AD
Espy
Bulb
FF
DV
------------->scum
TItus

Added Gamma cuz memories are hard guys.

[Oversoul]

What reads of UT have been "constantly evolving" ?

[Titus]

How can you think he has little to no content, but yet be aware of his reads, why they are evolving and feel good about it? Those are the exact things the rest of us have been trying to discover.

Is UT a lurker or not? If so, UT's a lurker, why are you doing everything in your power to avoid voting for him? If not, why haven't you interceded and explained to the rest of us where he actually has communicated something of substance. For instance, his Gamma read would be a good place to start.