13p Normal [TM2015]

[Zachrulez]

In fact Jason was on Thor until the claim.

So saying he was off wagon at the end of the day... that's an oversimplification.

[Zachrulez]

I know I spent a lot of day 1 in the team topic screaming at Jason to lynch Thor while he waivered on it. Then when we finally got him on board with that the claim brought it all back. Thought Trojan was a good alternative to Thor but I also commented that I thought Hider was a good scum fakeclaim so yeah...

[Egg]

Well, knowing there is a roleblocker (Mala seemed to know) and one scum left after Mala's lynch, it's important to out them, find out who they are, and kill them before they stop your kill. So yeah it was pretty damn important.

VCA usually suggests mislynches have scum on the wagon, but bussing doesn't happen the way it used to.

To be perfectly honest though, you seem to genuinely not get the no kill play. I'm not sure what to make of that because if Jason talked to you guys before doing it, you'd get it. If he just did it on his own, you wouldn't. And Cheet told me when I first voted your slot that you are pretty obvtown to him and it's at least worth giving you another night. But if you aren't scum, I dunno. Maybe I'd be back to Boon but I remember not thinking it was Mala/Boon.

Unvote

for now.

Preview edit: Scum have daytalk. If Jason knew Thor was claiming a power role, that would explain the whole three posts or whatever it was that Jason was voting Thor for. And after the claim, he just kind of went "oh fuck PR claim" and never discussed it again. But yeah his appearance on the wagon was very brief.

[Boonskiies]

God damn, Zach is the scummiest person I've ever seen...if I didn't have such a strong town jason read, I'd totally hop on that...

[Zachrulez]

Thor's entire play was designed on trying to get Jason to put his foot in his mouth and basically run him over with crap logic.

That incidentally was why I thought he was scum and why I was screaming at Jason to lynch him.

I know that 'BUSSING' exists, but can you look at the interactions and seriously say that bussing happened there?

[Zachrulez]

God damn, Zach is the scummiest person I've ever seen...if I didn't have such a strong town jason read, I'd totally hop on that...

I have like the most transparent meta ever.

I have like zero investment in scum games and I have never really figured out how to solve that problem. If anything it's just gotten worse as time has gone on. It's actually one of the major reasons I retired from playing. How can you play a game you mentally check out of the 25% of the time or so that you draw scum?

[Zachrulez]

2. this setup would be unbalanced as fuck if jason isn't town here. even discounting the fact that he didn't get CC'ed, 2-3 roles is standard in a mini normal. with jason town, we have

roleblocker + bodyguard + *unclaimed role*

with jason scum, we have

roleblocker + ???

it would be pretty much impossible to balance this at this point if jason isn't town here. there's basically no town power (I'm assuming that any relevant PR would have claimed by now, but no one has. thus I feel pretty confident there's only one unclaimed PR out there, *at most* - but even discounting this, it'd be difficult to balance this without jason as town) mastin agrees with me on this - she also says this AS A MINI NORMAL reviewer and points out that bodyguard is the go-to protective role in normal setups.

I agree with your concerns about setup balance, but who knows how many unclaimed power roles there are right now? Who says there's only one? I wouldn't be surprised if there are still two unclaimed roles.

I'm guessing your belief in two town power roles is stemmed from the idea that you think I'm scum here.

I actually am mulling over the idea of mass claim being necessary here. If you get two further power role claims, then one of the three claimed power roles is almost certainly scum. If you only get one, then scum opts to hide in a vanilla town claim and it puts the doubt of Jason/Zach's alignment to rest once and for all, and considering that there are a lot of doubts, I think that might be for the best.

[sthar8]

how common is it for scum to be provided with safeclaims in a normal game? I know it is often necessary in themed games, but what about normals? Would it be normal for the mod to tell the scum "there are no doctor-type roles in the game", so that scum can safely claim a doctor-type role? If not, then that greatly lowers jason/Zach's chances of being scum.

That is usually a role, not a game mechanic. Every time I've encountered it, it's been called "Informed" and I do not believe it is normal.

I am of the opinion, in case it weren't obvious, that Zach is town for balance reasons.

That Egg post is terrible and opportunistic and scummy and awful.

Egg's posts all day have been this way.

I think that might be for the best.

No, you've just announced optimal scum strategy there. We don't need a massclaim; we need anybody who wants to counterclaim you to do so. If nobody does, you're functionally conftown.

I'm going to iso Egg and pull some quotes to exemplify my feelings.

[Nexus]

Votecount 4.1:

Egg (2)-

sthar8, SleepyKrew

Trojan Horse (1)-

Boonskiies

SleepyKrew (1)-

pieguyn

Not voting (4)-

Trojan Horse, Zachrulez, Egg, DeltaWave

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Deadline is , at 6pm GMT on Saturday 16th May 2015. (expired on 2015-05-16 13:00:00)

[Egg]

Zach, I don't know if Thor busses or not, but if he does, that's exactly how I'd expect him to do it. I'd be shocked to see him half ass it.

Do you have any examples of you saying you don't like playing as scum in the past?

Sthar, since Sleepykrew refuses to explain, I can't wait to see where I've been opportunistic today. Jason was really the only person I've pushed today that I can recall. Can you explain to me how Zach is basically confirmed town?

[SleepyKrew]

Yes I have been and am continuing to refuse to explain; that's definitely what's happening.

Rest of that paragraph is lol too; don't pretend you haven't been reading all of a sudden.

TWO SEMICOLONS
today was a good day

[sthar8]

Before someone calls me out on it, I'm cherrypicking posts as evidence. There are more examples of all of these, and if you can't find them I can help you out.

Let's start at the very beginning, a very good place to start:

Mala, what is your read on Thor?

This is cute. Scum are always more careful about how they interact with their partners. This reads as forced interaction with both of them, and forcing them to interact with each other. Not strong.

Pie can be town, but misguided I think on the Thor vote. I'm not exactly strong town reading Thor, but his style isn't really "work to solve the game". It's more "Guys, I solved the game early Day 1. Now follow me or you're dumb". And that's exactly what he's doing here. Well, to an extent. To be fair, he doesn't seem to be looking for the support the way he normally does and that's the one thing that stands out to me about his play.

Egg's day1 play was very hedgy. Not the 'I dunno what's going on' hedgy, but the 'I'm not sure I want this opinion on record' kind. Here, it's specifically 'hey pie lets be friends, but leave my buddy thor alone. unless he flips, then there was something weird about that guy all along.'

STD, I never said you were a shitty player. Hell, I really don't think you are. At all. Not sure what gives you that impression either. Either I said something that was taken a way that I didn't mean for it to be taken, or that is just AtE. Also, Thor isn't the only player in this game day that you've pulled the "I'm ending this conversation" card on.

This one is quite good. Egg was pushing the whole 'lets frustrate the hell out of STD and see if it turns him into a viable wagon' angle. He comes in with not-quite-conciliatory statements, puts the blame on STD in a very gaslit fashion, and then drops a couple inflammatory assertions. This is what convinced me on Thor, the emotional manipulation. Egg's playing the shill and they're trying to work STD over.

We need a flashwagon. Everyone not voting needs to change this immediately. If people don't like Boon for today, I'll compromise but this is where I want us to lynch.

Note this is a flashwagon anywhere but Thor.

Fenchurch, the mala vote kind of sucks right now. We are in a deadline compromise situation and mala has no other votes if I'm not mistaken.

Or mala, apparently.

Sleepykrew, Day 1 no lynches basically makes Day 2 a second Day 1 but with a dead town player in damn near every game where it happens. Do you disagree? Also, Cheet wants to know why Mala isn't in your lynch pool.

There's quite a bit of Egg arguing irrelevant theory like this. Also, I want to point out that my only major hesitation on Egg is that he was happy to push mala day2. I find it hard to believe that someone who had just lost one buddy would be willing to drive the bus over the second one immediately. That is, unless they felt like she was going down regardless and he needed to get some cred off it while he could. Maybe getting roleblocked rattled her?

Honestly, that looks like a better "Boon is scum" case than "Boon and mala could be buddies" case. It doesn't really change my mind on anything.

But he did spend Day2 trying to get everyone

else

to give him a reason not to vote mala.

I wanna vote Bins, but six players still need to post

"I wanna vote Bins, but it would look better if someone else pushed it"

I mean.

STD was the obvious protect and the obvious kill. If you are town, scum probably felt ok killing him because you'd die and we'd lose a power role either way.

OR

You are scum. But would you really kill the guy you're supposed to be protecting? I think yes. Because if he blocks you, it could be incriminating (maybe not because of what we just went through with Bins but still risky). If he blocks someone else, we have confirmed town running around.

I dunno. Lemme do some rereading.

'Can we ignore the fact that jason is an uncountered protective claim and lynch him anyway?'

Do you disagree? I mean if Jason was getting emotional as a town bodyguard, one successful protect results in his death anyway or one correct lynch ends the game. I don't see any reason why a town bodyguard would resort to swapping out over getting emotional.

'Jason is a robot, and everything he does is scummy. please lynch him'

[sthar8]

Sthar, since Sleepykrew refuses to explain, I can't wait to see where I've been opportunistic today. Jason was really the only person I've pushed today that I can recall.

If anyone can't see it, Egg is basically grasping for anything that will buy a Zach lynch right now no matter how irrelevant. This is an important lynch for scum, since it eliminates town utility if they manage it. Also, a bodyguard will interfere with the optimal use of their kill; best if that goes away in the day phase.

Can you explain to me how Zach is basically confirmed town?

He's an un-cc'd protective. He potentially has utility still, so he doesn't get considered until the day before lylo. The BCS EV for him being town overwhelmingly outweighs the WCS EV for him being scum. We have no reason not to play carefully and correctly; that is the only way we lose from this position.

[pieguyn]

do you think Boon would play scum predictably or logically

except what I've seen of Boon's scum play is actually pretty straightforward. in both of his scum games I've seen, he generally pushed easy targets and it was obvious he was just following along with whoever he thought would be easy to lynch.

and even if you take the meta into account, I'm really not sure what he's trying to do if he is scum here

- Tammy thinks STD might have blocked Boon last night, given this post:

that's who I'd guess as well, but I don't know if I feel comfortable betting on it

[pieguyn]

the rest of the last 2-3 pages is all entirely semantic. TH, DW, and jason/Zach are all town, and *if* they are scum here, it's likely not for anything anyone has been accusing them of doing.

I haven't looked through sthar's Egg case yet, but at this point, SK is the only one who I don't have any kind of town read on. under usual circumstances, I'd support a massclaim, but I don't think I do here.

[Trojan Horse]

Trojan, which of your reads have changed?

I guess it's just Boon (I don't find him as scummy as I did Day 3), and jason/Zach (I thought the STD death was solid evidence, but the talk about game balance has dissuaded me). Everyone else is about where they were before.

[Trojan Horse]

Alright, let me take a shot at this.

I'm going to make a (probably stupid) assumption, and guess that scum would not have bussed each other during day 2. (Unless both scum came under pressure; then they'd pretty much have no choice but to do some bussing.) It would've been a risky move, with one scum lynched Day 1; top priority is keeping both remaining scum alive. They could do some bussing later, but not right then.

Under my horrible assumption, pie, SK, and Egg are all town. (I'm not counting sthar here, who fought against Mala's lynch until right before she claimed.) Let's also assume jason/Zach is scum, due to play balance and all that. That leaves Boon, sthar, and Delta.

If it's Boon, that means scum has never voted scum at all this game. Tempting, but I don't think so. Besides, STD probably blocked Boon last night.

If it's sthar, that means scum pulled the "one scum jump on Thor, one scum stay away from Thor" trick at the end of day 1. Sounds reasonable.

If it's Delta, that means both of Thor's scummates tried to save him by jumping on my bandwagon, and then they tried to put distance between each other during day 2. Mala went after Delta hard; Delta held back. Could be, I guess.

In the end, I just have to go by scumreads. Let's give this a try:

VOTE: sthar

[Trojan Horse]

That should've read "jason/Zach is town", of course. Man, changing reads is hard to do...

[Egg]

Sleepykrew, I must have missed your answer then. How do you define opportunism?

Sthar, I love how I went from idiot scum who unnecessarily bussed Thor at the last second to evil genious scum.

He's an un-cc'd protective

I wouldn't be surprised if STD being RB was our "protective" role. Town RB is usually used with the mindset that they stop kills.

Pie, so you don't think STD legitimately blocked Mala's action on Sleepykrew? I really like the point that she didn't like about her target in case of a watcher/tracker which makes Sleepykrew, who was also near the middle of the Thor wagon, pretty obvtown.

Trojan, arguing balance is dumb when we don't know half the setup yet.

[SleepyKrew]

I haven't answered yet!

[Egg]

Why not?

[sthar8]

(I'm not counting sthar here, who fought against Mala's lynch until right before she claimed.)

You are either not reading the thread, you are misremembering facts, or you are misrepresenting them to create a narrative.

I hope you have

something

else and you just didn't vote me over you being factually wrong...

@pie- Do you have any kind of case on Skrew other than 'I have a townread on everyone else?' Because your townread on Egg is silly. 'I don't care to read anyone else's posts' is not a convincing case, sorry.

Sthar, I love how I went from idiot scum who unnecessarily bussed Thor at the last second to evil genious scum.

Horse Laugh. Can we lynch this please?

[Egg]

Pie's reads have been pretty solid this game. Just sayin'

[Trojan Horse]

(I'm not counting sthar here, who fought against Mala's lynch until right before she claimed.)

You are either not reading the thread, you are misremembering facts, or you are misrepresenting them to create a narrative.

You were pushing to lynch either Delta or Egg during day 2. Here's the first post I could find where you gave even a hint that you might be willing to vote mala:

I'm here, just incredibly frustrated.

I'll compromise on a mala vote if it means pie's not in crazy tunnel land tomorrow.

I guess that's intent.

And by that point, mala already had 4 votes, with me signaling that I would be a fifth. I think that's enough to say that you weren't bussing your scummate, if you are scum.

If there were any earlier posts that I didn't see, go ahead and point them out.

[Boonskiies]

Pie's reads have been pretty solid this game. Just sayin'