NY 190: Molla's Large Normal

[VeeGee]

I don't think he is scum, I just find him annoying.

So why are you attacking him?

[Aj The Epic]

Saying the same thing over and over just because I hurt your feelings by saying you look scummy all the time is anti town.
Now, you can keep throwing your toys out of the pram but all comments from you will be ignored until I feel that you are ready for the adults table.

This post is unacceptable. You know as well as anyone else that no one else can use on-going games so it's largely irrelevant to discussions. And because Banana keeps giving you shit over this, you're refusing to answer his/her questions? More importantly, you've just had this constant train of ad hominem. I don't know in what world you imagine this to be helping but we're functioning on a completely body of work-based record when choosing who's more important to the game-state. I don't think it takes much to gather who's more important using that metric.

I think it was a legit slip. Even if it's on the role PM, I missed this before hand in a game so I'm just going by experience.
I don't read him for town, and the slip doesn't clear him from either.
I think it was a legit slip. Even if it's on the role PM, I missed this before hand in a game so I'm just going by experience.I don't read him for town, and the slip doesn't clear him from either.

So you're saying he could make this slip as scum? Now, I did read the scum role pm (links to google goddamnit) and it is exactly as I would expect a scum pm: The qt link is like RIGHT THERE. I don't know of many people who would get their role PM and be like "ooh shiny link to QT I'm not going to click this until N1". Your logic here is bad to me in the sense that if he LEGITIMATELY SLIPPED, he's town. There's no way in hell he grabs that role pm and doesn't click the QT in my mind.

Now I question whether or not he did slip because his sentences seem to hold accusations. However, there was a right combination of answers to this question and I feel you've messed them up.

[Luna Fox]

My current issue with Vedith is as:

He's having a hard time taking a stance on the slip. I did say the slip was black/white, it's impossible for them to have slipped and be scum or viceversa.
Like, i don't know why he's going out of his way to take the slip out but still leave room for "oh he might be scum".
When i think that it's because he's scum it doesn't make sense either unless FA_Q2 is scum wth him, because otherwise he'd have taken that chance to attack him.

It all feels weird to me.

[catboi]

I think he's trying to say it's a nulltell, he's just expressing it in an awkward way. It's not a totally indefensible stance I don't think. A lot of his stuff is not great in that it doesn't make a ton of sense, but I probably wouldn't vote him today.

[Luna Fox]

I think he's trying to say it's a nulltell

Well obviously.
I don't see why tho. That's the problem.

[Aj The Epic]

I felt like he was trying to clear Fa_Q2 without obviously buddying. Scum flip verdith is definite scum flip fa_q2. The only issue is we don't know what town flip verdith means.

[Luna Fox]

The only issue is we don't know what town flip verdith means.

It means that Faq2 is still in the "we don't know"
Or in my case, still a slight townread.

[catboi]

It means that Faq2 is still in the "we don't know"
Or in my case, still a slight townread.

Wait, what? why? when did this happen?

[Luna Fox]

If it means anything 463 looks like annoyed town tho.

[zakk]

Dang you have 13 ongoing games vedith? I have 1 playing and 1 missing and I'm still barely finding time

The game's about long enough to read now so I'll find some time in the next day or two

[Aj The Epic]

The only issue is we don't know what town flip verdith means.

It means that Faq2 is still in the "we don't know"
Or in my case, still a slight townread.

Which is essentially nothing for us. I'd rather have a lynch where we rig it so we get something either way if we can.

[catboi]

Keeping my vote on Veegee, still want more from him. Idc if he's an "easy" wagon, I put my vote on him not to lynch, but to have conversation.
He told me that he would post more on weekend, and he did technically, but it really wasn't much. What do you think of FA_Q and Performer?
Zakk hasn't given much of anything either, but that doesn't mean Veegee is innocent. He's definitely lacking in content though, and according to Vedith he usually posts more.
Performer's posts are annoying to look at, but from what I've seen he has given bits and pieces of insight. Albeit, in annoying emo and disorganized fashion. Not willing to lynch him quite yet, I want to hear more from him. Pressure is fine on him though.
FA_Q is still bugging me, especially when he ignored the reasons against him. I'm more willing to vote him if need be.

AAAAAA I got stuff to do, cutting this post a bit short. well, it's already a wall to catch up/respond with, but whatever.

Since I have time to dig, want to get into what bugs me here.

The fact is here he's really only hitting low-content players who have been voted or at least fos'd by people in this game. I'm going to go out on a slightly crazy limb here and say I think this is a scumtell, but I don't really know why. I think I've been hit for it before in the past, and people have pointed it out to me. I think, in part, it shows a person isn't legitimately scumhunting and is just following along with the crowd. A town player should be looking at everyone and trying to read them, but for scum it's more convenient to just look at the popular wagons. Again this isn't a great explanation but I'd swear by the fact that someone has told me this, I just don't remember the exact reasoning it's bad.


Added to that, it's really pretty useless commentary! again, voting a lurky player for "pressure" is a meaningless token gesture for scum that is done to attempt to look town while taking on really no risk at all. Also pretty lame to be pressing veegee for content when he's offered up essentially none himself, I think. It's such a weak cop-out for a vote. DOn't see any reasoning behind him asking veegee about faq2 or performer except that they were also getting wagoned. the sentence on zakk is useless! All he says is thathe hasn't posted much! No kidding, anyone could see that from looking at the activity overview! Worst doesn't bother to say whether he finds it suspicious, just essentially goes to restate the obvious. It's non-analysis posing as commentary. The Performer "read" is just, he's annoying but has "bits and pieces of insight" (where? what? who knows) and he's not scummy but you can pressure him and maybe I'll vote him later - it's a total non-stance. Doesn't really manage to say anything about performer at all. Last bit not much better, just saying fa_q2 is bad because he "ignored the reasons against him", whatever that means. It just feels like cheap analysis. COuld I see a town player thinking this? I guess, but the way he expresses it feels off. It's not really new or insightful, just kind of piggybacking on another guy that's been pressured.

worst referenced his meta, the only remotely recent meta on him is Mini 1705, and the difference is night and day - there he pretty quickly delves into actual analysis and makes legitimate attempts at scumhunting. in 59 there's a press on something he finds suspicious, then he starts asking questions with a point, drops meta-analysis on a player he doesn't see doing much (bacde) - there's a decent deal of interrogation and accusation going on there. He doesn't give reads for a while but not hard to see honest scumhunting in the questioning, trying to figure out people's reasoning and the like. There's really none of that here and most of what he's said has been constructed seemingly in an effort to avoid riling anyone up. The fact that he didn't bother to look into veegee's meta is also pretty bad, suggests here he's more concerned with simply pushing the easy lynch rather than investigating if he's making a vote based on playstyle.

god this ended up way longer than i thought it would be

[BananaCucho]

Look, you may have a point with the worst. Most of what you're saying makes sense. I would switch my vote to him but I want to see where this Vedith thing is going first, including interaction (or lack of) with TheWorst.

[Vedith]

I don't think he is scum, I just find him annoying.

So why are you attacking him?

I only responded to his posts directed at me. I've just got tired of the post being the same petty comment each time. I've made it clear where I stand with him in this game now.

[Vedith]

This post is unacceptable. You know as well as anyone else that no one else can use on-going games so it's largely irrelevant to discussions. And because Banana keeps giving you shit over this, you're refusing to answer his/her questions? More importantly, you've just had this constant train of ad hominem. I don't know in what world you imagine this to be helping but we're functioning on a completely body of work-based record when choosing who's more important to the game-state. I don't think it takes much to gather who's more important using that metric.

Until he starts to actually ask me questions which isn't the same thing over and over I will ignore him.
So before you go into one learn the facts is all I'm saying.

[talah]

Briefly following up on the FAQ / Vedith thing.

Firstly

@Vedith

, it seemed to me that you did not bother to analyse the "fake townslip" for yourself before committing to vote for it *if* there was a scum PT where FAQ had posted pregame.
Then in finding exactly that it seemed you decided against voting based on fairly arbitrary conditions. Bold is my emphasis.

Luna's question:

Also i'd also like more opinions (specifically from the people that haven't commented on it) on FA_Q2, because some ppl think im stretching it and i just, i don't know,

it just feels weird to me that someone with so many games would try and attempt to make us think they don't know pre-game chat for scum exists.

Your assessment:

I'll have to do it later tonight unless you can tell me the game names he is scum in?
If he hasn't been scum, or

if he hasn't pre posted or commented on pre posted in the scum chat then I will give him the benefit of the doubt

, however,

just once will be enough

for me to vote him.

Post 0 from the scum PT which FAQ participated in (by the mod, not the IC):

You two are the Mafia Team for this game!

You will be allowed to talk in this private area during the pregame phase (until I say that Day 1 has begun)

and during the Night Phases!

Your assessment:

I would normally agree that he saw... However, as his partner was the IC

there is a good chance that he thought it was standard for IC to do this

.
It's not strong enough of a case for me to vote him personally.

I don't know if you can see why that seems fishy to me or not. The "just once will be enough" turns into "It's not strong enough of a case" pretty damned quickly.
I really don't know what you would have been looking for if not exactly that.

I could understand if you'd looked at what FAQ actually posted and had decided for yourself as several of us did that it was a good catch by Luna but nothing conclusive.
But the fact that you went ahead and stated *just once* and then ignored this when the exact condition arose, struck me as highly inconsistent and a switch without explanation (or rather, a disingenuous explanation). As to your motivation, I'm not sure. But I agree with catboi when he says this:

How can you think it was a legitimate slip and not think it has any bearing on his alignment?

And Luna when she says this:

My current issue with Vedith is as:

He's having a hard time taking a stance on the slip. I did say the slip was black/white, it's impossible for them to have slipped and be scum or viceversa.
Like, i don't know why he's going out of his way to take the slip out but still leave room for "oh he might be scum".
When i think that it's because he's scum it doesn't make sense either unless FA_Q2 is scum wth him, because otherwise he'd have taken that chance to attack him.

It all feels weird to me.

Because your position, is now this:

I think it was a legit slip. Even if it's on the role PM, I missed this before hand in a game so I'm just going by experience.
I don't read him for town, and the slip doesn't clear him from either.
His frustration seems genuine but it's not hard to look frustrated when typing.

Give me a stronger case to vote him and I will.

Now, can we all just vote up Zakk? I'm calling scum right there.

...Which is completely at odds with your initial position that just one instance of proof of FAQ knowing about scum pre-game chat would be

enough for me to vote him.

So anyway I'm going to leave you to your stuff now as you seem to be participating and I have other stuff to do.
But I suggest you actually scumhunt and explain your thinking rather than practice your sarcasm skills in-thread.
And I assume you don't want to be a "vig" target given the softclaim that's been bandied about.

More on that shortly.

[Vedith]

So you're saying he could make this slip as scum? Now, I did read the scum role pm (links to google goddamnit) and it is exactly as I would expect a scum pm: The qt link is like RIGHT THERE. I don't know of many people who would get their role PM and be like "ooh shiny link to QT I'm not going to click this until N1". Your logic here is bad to me in the sense that if he LEGITIMATELY SLIPPED, he's town. There's no way in hell he grabs that role pm and doesn't click the QT in my mind.

Now I question whether or not he did slip because his sentences seem to hold accusations. However, there was a right combination of answers to this question and I feel you've messed them up.

I mean, I can't see how many times I can answer the same thing before people actually read correctly.
I said it before, I'll say again.... I'm going by personal experience here, I had a role PM before and it said here is the link and you can talk pre game and at night. I didn't read it properly, bookmarked the thread and didn't go into it until during the night.
From there, during the night, I realised that my partner was talking to me pre game but at the time I wasn't aware that we could pre chat even though it said in the PM.
Now, even though it was my own fault, if I were to question pre chat on Day 1, it would have been genuine but wouldn't make me town (as I wasn't).

That's my point of it so to me it's a null tell.

[Vedith]

@talah - At least once means that it happened more than 0 times.
There was no pre talking from him or mentioned on the pre chat of his partner, making it 0.
355
You can clearly see that I was looking for 1 of these 2 things to decide if I voted or not, I didn't change what I was looking for and neither did I find either.

[Vedith]

I felt like he was trying to clear Fa_Q2 without obviously buddying. Scum flip verdith is definite scum flip fa_q2. The only issue is we don't know what town flip verdith means.

It means you fucked up and have nothing to go by.
For the record, I'm not saying to or not to vote up FA, I'm saying that my opinion on it is null.

[talah]

It's effectively the same point that AJ made - it's right there at the top of the thread that he spent his entire scumgame with access to.

It's not a thought experiment on whether FAQ may or may not have known about the existence of scum pre-game chat - he obviously did. It's a question of the content of his slip, which is - he said he thought it was explicitly stated in the rules. Was he trying to fake it?

Which is not even your *current* position.

[Vedith]

Dang you have 13 ongoing games vedith? I have 1 playing and 1 missing and I'm still barely finding time

The game's about long enough to read now so I'll find some time in the next day or two

Yeah it's better to be in more games because when people frustrate you in a game, you can just leave it for a while and get back to it later.

Have you tried joining any Micro games? Those ones are the better ones and has a lot of decent players to go against.

[talah]

Look Vedith, I'm not interested in lynching you today unless you prove completely useless or claim scum. I find the mental switch from you odd but not impossible from stubborn town.

What do you think about performer's vig thing since you're here? I was going to post thoughts explicitly but maybe a conversation would be better anyway.

I'm thinking he's crumbing SK like a boss and that we should run him up to claim.
Then I think we need to decide what to do when he claims vig - leave him or lynch him anyway.

I agree with AJ that the actual vig if there is one should not counterclaim.
But I think we need a claim from performer fairly expediently.

Your thoughts?

[talah]

By the way if you're wondering what changed from my "lynchable" list, you've been participating and at least trying to explain yourself.

[talah]

Well anyway, my 521 is an open question.

Think Luna was the only one to mention it so far but it was something at the top of my own mind as soon as he started with the "Imagine I was a vig" thing.
It's almost like he's roleplaying SK with the daft poetry and - oh so gentle, softly, softly - questions to VeeGee.

I've seen instances where the SK can be "chained" by giving them a pool to shoot in but (unless I'm wrong for normal games as opposed to theme) they usually have some kind of protections (BP, ninja etc) and are best off lynched at some point.

Of course this is running forward on the assumptions. It clicks as making sense for me though, and I don't think Performer is town. He's just not trying to find scum. He seems to be trying to find out who he can kill with the least risk of his own noose.

[Vedith]

Hey, it's fine if you want me in your lynch pool. I worry more when people see me as town rather than scum as my trait is looking scummy.

I agree that there should be no counter claim.

Perfromer should claim, as the focus is obviously there on this matter (reason bread crumbing is pointless if you ask me). Just leaving it at this stage can be more harmful than good if he really is vig.
Being an SK? I'm not too sure about that, as SK you want to draw little to no attention about yourself. The only fact I would see to support this is if someone saw him visit his target or if he hit a scum.
I'll review what exactly he posted again during my lunch break and re comment on this if needed.

Performer, are you willing to discuss this further without us putting you to L1?