Mini 496 - Wild West Mafia. Mod Abandoned

[kabenon007]

I really don't know what to make of this... In most normal setups, the cop doesn't get a night zero investigation. But I haven't played enough mini themes to know whether or not normal setups such as no night zero investigation apply for mini themes.

[kabenon007]

Whoa whoa whoa Thin_Man! Evidence there is, but crushing volume and infallibility it does not have! If u had been reading, u would see that the evidence could easily have been put there by scum, or by an anonymous third party to get us to lynch an innocent townie, or worse, a power role.

[kabenon007]

the reactions that people give us when attacked are the only thing to go by. Anonymous writing, while helpful in generating discussion and therefore reactions, cannot be seen as infallible truth.

[kabenon007]

I think that a no-lynch would be a bad idea. If we do a no-lynch then we go to Night 1 and the scum get a kill, or the possibility of a kill, without us having learned any information. And we would be right back where we started, except one townie less

[kabenon007]

But, by making a lynch, we can go back and re-read and see, based on the lynched person's role, who was defending, who was attacking, and who was doing nothing. We can get information that way. But your right about losing two townies if we miss. That's why we need to talk this out and not quick lynch anyone.

[kabenon007]

Oof, Aimee, after all this time apart, the first post you make is to vote for me? Ouch...

[kabenon007]

the reactions that people give us when attacked are the only thing to go by.

What? How about their behaviour when attacking, voting for and defending others? What about their theorising on the game at large, and suggesting/supporting bad plans? What about, ooh, say roleclaims? Your statement above is flat wrong.

Yes, looking back, I should have clarified a bit more. I was more thinking along the lines of best, and not only. My mistake.

[kabenon007]

In my opinion, I don't think the fact that Twomz wasn't bandwagonned is a sign that he is scummy. He did have other options to use, it was just one of a few. He hasn't shown any other reason to be considered scummy. But that's just my opinion. He hasn't made really any profoundly town posts, but he is no higher on my scum list than anyone else at the moment. Besides, this whole thing is making me drunk off of WIFOM. I can't hold my liquor as well as Twomz. Wanna help me finish this WIFOM, Twomz?

[kabenon007]

pdcakes, you haven't been suspecting of twomz up until he started attacking you, aka a few posts ago. That is incredibly omgus. Besides, I think we have all basically agreed that adam should be regarded as if there was no note, at least until we can prove that the notes are reliable or unreliable. If another note comes up, and we can prove that one, then the note against adam may come in handy then.

FoS: pdcakes

[kabenon007]

heavily considering voting, but not ready just yet

[kabenon007]

the reason that you didn't omgus them is because you can't vote for more than one person. The fact remains that twomz attacked and voted for you, and then you attacked him. Why you chose him, I don't know, going along the lines that it is omgus, it is probably because you felt you had a case against him more than others. You asked for people's opinions, and this one is mine. I don't think he "skewed" your posts on purpose. You yourself said your post #4 could have been clearer. So any misrepresentation of your posts could just be an innocent mistake. Those are possible you know...

[kabenon007]

I don't think we as a group are in the random vote stage. There are a few people who are still stuck in that stage, though I don't really know why. I'm kinda leaning toward Zombie. I really don't have proof, need to re-read. But it's a hunch

[kabenon007]

okay, I have completed my re-read and have come to agree with something said early on about the note. It could have been an SK. I've never played with an SK, but I believe they want both sides dead, right? And each night they get a kill, right? So maybe in this mini, they can also write on the wall, getting the town to lynch someone so the SK basically gets two kills? Just an idea.

And I am going to

vote pdcakes

. I didn't like the way pdcakes switched his perspective on adam so quickly, and I know we've been over this before, but it just stuck out in my mind, and at the moment you are the most scummy person on my list. It was like you saw people weren't attacking him, so you decided to stop too. And you OMGUS'd Twomz, which to me says that you were just getting a little overzealous in your defense and lashed back.

[kabenon007]

I know we have gone over this before. I'm not condemning you as scum so much as voicing my opinion in an effort to avoid a deadline and to stir up some conversation. You are just at the top of my scum list. And yes it was in reference to your 2nd and 4th posts. You were like let's put the note aside, let's test to see if it's true. It was just very circumstantial answers. That's all.

And nobody tries to OMGUS someone except in the random voting stage. It is something that is just picked up on, or at least something I picked up on.

[kabenon007]

welcomes all around!

[kabenon007]

The accusations aren't really all that huge, he unvoted you, and you seem to be defensive whenever anyone addresses you. Your responses are short and as has been pointed out, panicked, as if something hit home.

[kabenon007]

we really don't have to ask questions. We can just deduce what we will from your responses to our accusations of panic. And ask questions!

[kabenon007]

I really dislike the whole paradoxombie voting twomz thing. We have been discussing things, we are no longer in the random voting stage, and paradox just... votes twomz? I don't get it. My scumlist is going to be posted shortly, but a quick list, just off the top of head without a reread would contain paradoxombie, and pdcakes.

[kabenon007]

Um... paradox, you said your reasoning for voting him was because things were too slow. That is not a reason so much as an excuse. A reason would be like, cuz I think he is scummy. Just a vote because things are slow is kinda random...

[kabenon007]

I think it would be prudent to watch the way these final votes are cast and the way in which they are cast. Scum could easily just slip a vote in either on a wagon to bolster it, or on a slightly smaller one in order to save one of their own. I think the votes leading up to this deadline will provide almost as much information as the lynch itself.

[kabenon007]

shit

unvote

. Of the remaining players on the chopping block, I would have to

vote paradoxombie

. I've had my eye on him for awhile now, and he is more scummy than Aimee, her long posts, while either confusing or good, provide us with much information.

[kabenon007]

I do not like the way that curiouskarmadog talks about the fact that it could be a cop role. If it was a cop like role that said to "be wary of CKD," then wouldn't that mean CKD wasn't town aligned? What are your thoughts on this, anyone in general. Also, of all the people who did end up voting Aimee, I didn't like Simenon's just jumping on there. His reasoning is because an Aimee lynch is better than no-lynch, but how about a scum lynch instead? He didn't even read the thread. The only person who could vote for someone to lynch on a whim, without even reading the thread, and think it is better than a no lynch can only be scum.

[kabenon007]

Okay, Simenon, the mere fact that a townie is a townie is enough to justify a no-lynch over what you did. You had no facts, you hadn't read the thread, you had no reason to vote Aimee logically, plus the fact that she was, as ryan pointed out, doomed already. A no-lynch, while undesirable, could and in this case did kill an innocent townie. A townie is powerful merely by being a townie, voting and voicing opinion, and a random lynch is of these townies is not better than no lynch, because then we still have at least one more townie than we had.

[kabenon007]

and no, ryan, I have no frickin idea why I have a vote restriction. Pisses me off though...

[kabenon007]

But we have already established that "be wary" carries with it negative connotation. If it said watch CKD or something different, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But it said be wary, and if you are willing to believe that adam/simenon is scum, then are you admitting to us to be wary of you?

[kabenon007]

But if you knew you were vig, and you knew that "be wary" was true, then why were you discussing what "be wary" meant? Didn't you know all along? Or were you just trying to avoid a claim? I admit, I guessed you were some sort of role like that, but I wasn't going to say it outloud. Pdcakes seemed almost trying to force a claim.

[kabenon007]

Who the hell is Primate? I am assuming it was a post by Thin_Man, under a wrong profile. Am I correct there?

And I too believe CKD. A Vig claim is easily tested and can be counterclaimed and is just not a good role to fake claim. So I believe him, and now, seeing as how his note was proven, I want to hear from Simenon before I do much else. And I still can't vote. Son of a bitch.

[kabenon007]

But you have to remember, couldn't the doc protect him? I've never played with a Vig before, so I don't know if it is a smart idea to protect a vig with a doc. Could someone explain?

[kabenon007]

shit, I forgot Twomz died. My mistake

[kabenon007]

Well ryan, as I've already said, I can believe CKD's claim. He chose the vig, an easy role to test, so if we didn't lynch him today, then we could just hold on to him and at some point ask him to vig someone, like an extra town lynch almost. Easy to prove or disprove.

As for SirWario's claim... I don't know where I stand yet on this one. I could see him as writing notes being his only role, but I've never seen it, so I am inherently skeptical that that is his only role. But why then would he claim it? It seems like such a stupid role for scum to claim, and we are drifting into WIFOM territory with that, but I see no point in it. Oh boy, I can write notes that have no relevance now that I have claimed? I am leaning more toward thinking he is being truthful, but I need to think on that one some more.

[kabenon007]

Once you ask people to post these lists in a ranked fashion, the assumption is that they find the three people on their list scummy. There is a difference between suspicious and scummy, which you apparently don't understand. Then, once these lists are posted, it is extremely simple for people to make accusations and draw connections between two people based on Day 1 suspicions.

Perhaps I am misreading this, but it seems like you are saying it is a bad idea to be able to draw connections between the lists. I would have to disagree. These lists, later, after we have some lynches, we can see who was avoiding who, who was possibly bussing, blah blah blah, we've been over these already, I believe. The point is, you are incorrect in the fact that these lists are a bad thing. And you know what, I don't believe I ever posted mine... wtf?


1.Simenon- I really didn't like Simenon's switching to Aimee and then his explanation of his reasoning. I've stated my reasons before, so yeah.

2. GodOfWine- His responses recently have raised him in my scumdar from "no read" to "#2." He is still voting based on the fact that his vote is "doing no harm." Well why not switch it to somewhere where instead of doing nothing, it will do some good? Just a thought.

3. Paradox/pdcakes- It surprised me that they were lower than GodOfWine on my list, but there you go. But I guess they haven't done anything as of late to raise my suspicion, whereas GodOfWine and Simenon have.

[kabenon007]

Sorry pdcakes. Yeah, it was from my first day suspicions, but you haven't done anything scummy as of late, so my suspicion of you two is not very much, I just have you guys as my third highest suspicion list. Maybe now you aren't so much scummy, just IGMEOY.

[kabenon007]

I want Simenon to post, in case anyone is wondering about my opinion. I would vote, but I can't!!! Bah! I still don't think he has adequately defended himself.

[kabenon007]

happy birthday anyway, Simenon!

[kabenon007]

eh, and I'm one-half. Oh well...

[kabenon007]

well, my thoughts really have no bearing... seeing as how I can't vote. I'm assuming this has something to do with either a mafia role or town role. My vote would be on Simenon for reasons I have posted before, if anyone wants to challenge me on them I would love it, because this game needs some discussion to get things moving. Even Simenon doesn't seem to want to challenge my views of him...

[kabenon007]

I didn't say you didn't answer, I was saying you have yet to challenge my thought. I am most definitely not convinced by your arguments. It was just too opportunistic for me. You saw a chance to look like a helpful townie and jump on the largest wagon, one that didn't need any jumping on, and then basically the only excuse you have for it is that you didn't read the thread and therefore thought another vote was necessary. But as I've said before, and am probably going to get burned for it, I think a no-lynch is better than a lynch with absolutely no digging going into it at all. So therefore, I need a bit more of an explanation. And ryan is jumping at the bit for it too, I think!

[kabenon007]

I meant you are in favor of Simenon posting an better explanation. Not a no-lynch.

[kabenon007]

vote simenon vote simenon vote simenon!!!!

[kabenon007]

my goodness Simenon, my response was much more eloquent than "um... etc." I said before I know you have "defended" yourself, but your recent posts have been, in my own frank opinion, crap. I wish, instead of you saying I have already defended this before, that you restate it instead of saying I have already explained that. If you would, explain it again.

ps- seeing as how I can't vote, my vote simenon rant was more to assert my view that simenon is the most scummy player atm. He says I am saying "Lynch simenon lawl!" Overreaction: noted.

[kabenon007]

besides, simenon, I don't have to have you respond to questions of my asking if you are already basically answering what I want. That's why I would be voting for you. You have failed at convincing me.

[kabenon007]

I said before I know you have "defended" yourself, but your recent posts have been, in my own frank opinion, crap.

Okay. why?

Hee hee, you answered this one yourself...

I wish, instead of you saying I have already defended this before, that you restate it instead of saying I have already explained that. If you would, explain it again.

I did restate. Way to lie.

Once again resorting to the brilliant one line answers that do nothing to help his cause... Also, where did you restate recently? The last post with any sort of content was like four pages ago. Your recent posts have been short little crap fests in which you 1. attack GOW, weakly I might add. 2. refute ryan with one liners that reak of sarcasm and contain no evidence as to why we should not lynch you. 3. post 475: a beautiful response that evidently shows you... not restating as you said you have. Please, point out said restatation.

Also, it should be noted that you say I am overreacting yet you don't mention ryan's 746.

That would be because I... don't think he... overreacted... um... I thought that was obvious there Simenon. My mistake.

[kabenon007]

Um... look at the friggin post Simenon. All you do is say, already explained. Great. Fine. Explain it again. When was it explained last? Not anywhere near now. Goodness, I'm repeating myself. Your refusal to restate your opinion only makes me sure that you don't remember what your opinion was. I could have gone back and looked at your opinion had I wished to. I just wanted to see if you would repost them and then I could compare the two. Now, you have not reposted, so I can only assume you do not remember your opinion and are therefore scum. Townies don't forget their opinions.

Gosh, I'm sorry. Here, let me rephrase the question so you don't dodge it:
What about my recent posts have been crap?

Reread my post, but I'll restate it here... hint hint...
Look at what followed after I said you answered it yourself. It was a quote of yours that contained a quote of mine which... said why I think your answers have been crap. It wasn't a dodge, you just didn't see the answer was beneath it. Sigh... me and my creativity...

[kabenon007]

EBWOP: Opinions should be more like observations or excuses. Poor word choice on my part...

[kabenon007]

Simenon, the fact remains, as I said before, I don't care that you posted your explanations earlier. The fact I wanted to investigate was whether or not you could remember your explanations, and would accidentally word them differently, or something that differed from them the first time than in a repost. And the fact that you posted it after I asked you to and gave you my reasoning nulled my point. I probably shouldn't have told you why I wanted to post your explanations, I had just hoped you would out of honesty, but no, it took me telling you that I wanted to compare, and this gave you the ability to go back and review, knowing exactly what I wanted. It was probably stupid to say it, but I figured you wouldn't post it unless I did, and now that it is there, it is less genuine than if I hadn't said anything.

[kabenon007]

I was thinking more of a poke with like a cattle prod, or a branding iron, but whatever suits you, mod...

[kabenon007]

Yay extension!!! I would be highly suspicious of anyone who was against an extension.

[kabenon007]

I think that there has been some good discussion today. Mostly against Simenon, which I have no problem with.

[kabenon007]

Simenon, what the hell have we been doing for the past four fucking pages if not arguing? Why are you not all voting Simenon?

[kabenon007]

It's easy to explain why I'm not voting CKD, paradox. Firstly, Simenon has been my target for awhile now, and has failed to sway my opinion of him. Secondly, and most important, and you should know this, paradox... I can't vote. Remember?

[kabenon007]

Well, I really don't understand why it is so hard to believe his claim over SirWario's. The Vig is very common, so it would be likely we would have one in this game, it is after all Western themed, and to claim it and hope that there were no counterclaims would be foolhardy. He could have picked something much less attention grabbing and easy to disprove.

[kabenon007]

Perhaps. But what other roles would fit the "be wary" message?

This is irrelevant, because the notes carry absolutely no fact to them, at least no intentional fact. Any truth behind them is soley coincidence.

Ckd claimed as soon as the tiniest bit of suspicion was on him, in order to get another player killed, when he could've easily not claimed and taken care of the killing himself if his claim is true.

I don't think it was that quick of a claim. Besides, if I recall correctly, pdcakes kinda forced a claim out of him. I can't remember it exactly, but I'm pretty sure it went something like that. So I don't think the method of his claim is suspicious to me at least.

[kabenon007]

bravo, CKD! I had believed you anyway, but that was good. and you also bring up a good point about Para's being on the Aimee and then disappears conveniently. It's like he didn't care if Aimee claimed or did anything differently, his vote was going to stay on her.

And Simenon, an argument it most definitely is.
Argument: a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. All of my statements have been connected, eg. against you, and the established proposition is thatyou are scum. So... argument. And I have not only said I don't believe your previous excuses. While those were the reasons I suspected you, your responses to my accusations were what condemned you. You are appealing to emotion, dodging answers, only giving half answers that you never fully commit to. Therefore, I am arguing, and you are scum. Bam. SEND THE VECTOIDS all you want.

[kabenon007]

ps...
nice OMGUfrickinS. any particular reasons other than desperation, anger, stupidity? Just checking

[kabenon007]

Um... where else have you been accusing me? I been accusing you this whole time, you make no argument against me... OMGUS

Also, it's spelled original. I doubt they know what orginal means. Getting a little antsy, are we simenon? Why is that?

[kabenon007]

The only reason you find me obnoxious is because I am attacking you. Get over it.

[kabenon007]

Okay, I see where I made a mistake that kinda threw me off... in my post 755, I made a reference to post 475, in which I said that Simenon was not explaining himself. That was me going dyslexic and switching the first two numbers. The post I was referring to was post

745

. So, when Simenon responded and bolded his responses, I didn't realize that he had already posted those, I thought that he had added the bolded parts in. I thought he had used the "already explained" post as a format to explain everything. When I looked back at my post and saw 475, I went back to read it, and it was a post by ryan. So what I've been saying about him not responding, I lighten up a little on that. My mistake, not his.

However, I still believe he is a good lynch candidate. I think that the posts he has made since then have been scummy. He had replied with one liner sarcastic comments, failed to present an argument that I find plausible, appealed to emotion, dodged questions... shall I continue?

No I shall not, because it is obvious it is getting on people's nerves, and it is not making any progress, so I will leave it at that. Simenon is still my top subject, I want him lynched today, but it seems that this argument has completely consumed my attention. And that is not good. I will post my thoughts on Paradox soon, as I am suspicious of him as well, from the whole thing with CKD... but too tired now.

[kabenon007]

I suppose that one liner sarcastic comments could be just scummy to me, but I find them incredibly unhelpful to the town as a whole, considering we want to give the town, upon our deaths, as much information as possible, and one liners do not give information. As for appeals to emotion, I will get to that, I just have to do some school stuff today, and then I can sort that out.

[kabenon007]

hm... I looked back over Paradox, particularly in the time right before the lynch. And it surprised me in the beginning how much I had missed. Paradox throws his suspicions around like candy, Fosing many, while providing reasons for few. But when I got to the deadline time, where there was much chaos and such, I found his actions to be extremely town. He was willing to be the lynch in order to give information, he voted Aimee instead of his previous rival Twomz, who was of course claimed, but it was a quick claim. Granted, all of this has WIFOM that could be applied, but...
And now with this whole CKD/Para exchange. It does look extremely bad on Para's part when he was so adamantly pushing a lynch on a claimed vig, but it could have also been just that Para was mistaken. But I look at the posts he made after CKD provided us with his breadcrumb. Paradox was shaken by this, as well he should be. He did not unvote right away, but in fact needed to be told by CKD.
It also does not make sense why he wanted to lynch CKD if he thought he was scum claimed vig, because as I said before a vig is easy to test, so if CKD failed out test, we could lynch him the next day, meanwhile today we could go after other people of scummy behavior. Also, CKD brings up a good point of Paradox commenting on GOW's passive scumminess, but that Para hasn't voted or Fosed, which is odd given his love of doing that early on. And because I found GOW to be scummy too, I will give an FOS:Paradox. I still think Simenon is a better candidate, but I said I would post on this one.

[kabenon007]

I completely agree Gorgon, which is why I Fosed him. I still think Simenon is better lynch, but I am not going to dwell on it. I can't vote either way.

[kabenon007]

by the way ryan. on saturday you and I will be enemies(i go to MSU). Just saying that there might be some animosity

There shall be animosity between you and I as well, pdcakes. I too am a hawkeye.

[kabenon007]

My case on Simenon started from his vote on Aimee, to which he provided an excuse, albeit a weak one. It is perfectly conceivable that he could have just come in, saw an easy way to appear town, and cast without realizing the implications. Then, during our prolonged argument, I asked him to repost his excuse. This was not because I forgot, I just wanted to see if his first excuse and second would contain any discrepancies...(I don't know how to spell it...) and in the end he went back and quoted his excuse instead of rewriting it... a blow to my plan. But along the way, I thought his posts were dodging the questions ryan and I were asking. He never provided a solid answer that didn't have some sort of fallback, and he used appeal to emotions and one liners to pester me, and I did take the bait and got into an argument. Probably shouldn't have done that, as it detracted from the rest of the game, but oh well. So to summarize:

My Suspicions
1. Vote on Aimee- weakly defended, great possibility of untruthiness
2. Refusal to repost his explanation, which lead me to believe he was scared he would have something different in his argument. A townie would not care if he had to re-tell his explanation because it is the truth. A scun's excuses are not true, and therefore can differ from one telling to the next.
3. His appeals to emotions and general willingness to bait me. Eg. his read the fucking game posts, to which of course I responded in kind. Bad me!

[kabenon007]

Apart from me, yes.

[kabenon007]

Now that I think about it, that in and of itself is a little suspicious. He said he has no idea who else is scummy. Is that possibly because he was scum trying so hard to get a lynch on CKD that he forgot to read and just was single-minded in his approach? I don't think a townie would be so single-minded as to not have other scummy people in mind. But I could be wrong. Just a speculation.

[kabenon007]

Ryan: But how could having my vote taken away make me look townie? I don't think I quite understand you on this one. And does that mean you think that the vote block power or whatever it was that did this to me is a scum power?

[kabenon007]

Ah! I see what you are saying now. Another possibly scummy thing to add to Para that my conversation with ryan has made me think of... Para did not remember that I couldn't vote, even though I have made several references to this fact, jokingly and not jokingly. Which could point to the possibility of him being scum and not reading the thread.

[kabenon007]

Thank you ryan. Exactly what I mean.

[kabenon007]

I would like more information from both Para and Simenon, just to state where I am currently at in this game. They are my two main suspects. Don't know what more to say that I haven't already said.

[kabenon007]

So with a deadline near, Para makes a vote based on not even a third of the posts. If this turns out exactly like his vote on Aimee, where he just voted and said bye bye, it will look really bad for you if you aren't lynched today, Para.

[kabenon007]

I mean that if you aren't dead come morning, and you left your vote on ryan based on soley the first 250 posts, you will once again come under suspicion for the same things you did before with the Aimee vote.

[kabenon007]

Para, you forget his massive overreaction later on in the game. Your reread, only past post 250, has skewed your thinking. People's play at the beginning of the game may seem town, but their actions, if they are scum, are more likely to emerge later, after their defenses have had time to wear down.

[kabenon007]

Dude it's not skewed,

I specifically said I might've forgotten something and I didn't necessarily forget

it because I re-read the begining. Btw could you direct to to what you are talkig about or remind me with further details.

This whole thing confuses me. Especially the bolded part. What are you trying to say?

I am saying that this close to deadline, you are making a vote based on only about 25% of the posts. And in my opinion, the latter 75% has much more to offer in the realm of scumhunting than that first 25, yet you vote based on that 25%. Therefore your thinking is skewed toward the first, and less contentful, part of the game. I think your reread would be more prudent, if you were suspicious of ryan, in the realms of his accusations on Simenon.

[kabenon007]

What time does this deadline happen?

[kabenon007]

You mean you want us to make our cases? Or you want the cases that have been brought up against us?

[kabenon007]

Because from what I see your role has an actual name, while ours are only called "cowboy" and "harlot".

Did CKD actually provide us his name? Cuz I don't think he did...

[kabenon007]

Why does this always happen? Paradox, if you really are town, you would want to get another person to vote on your, so the town gets more information. All we get now is previous info and the knowledge that you were either bored with this game or a poor sport.

[kabenon007]

Dammit... No, I was scum with Twomz and Simenon

[kabenon007]

I figured it was either you or pdcakes... how did you know it was me? I kinda figured you were cop, and that was how you knew it was me without telling your reasons.

[kabenon007]

Right back at ya, Simenon. It was great fun bashing and taking crap from you. Good times...