NY 190: Molla's Large Normal

[Performer]

Welcome, Fire. If you're also scum this game, well you know what'll happen.
You know what I mean. ; )

Wasn't TheWorst scumreading Aj for most of D1? or did i get him confused with someone else.

Luna, from the info I got from Worst during my last interview of him, he was a fan of the Ved lynch, had a null read on FA, and disagreed with Sal's read of Aj.

-----
@FA I think IaI town OR IaI scum would’ve done that plan. If he is Vig, his plan makes sense – in order for him not to waste a shot on someone who resists death. If he’s scum, his plan makes sense – for him to help his team pick the right targets.

The information he got from everyone who’s able to resist nk, I personally find the validity questionable.

@Aj and what’s your reason for pushing on my death once again?

@Titus how come you're lining up lynches like that? How effective is that ?
----

Who I don't want to be lynched today: Luna/CDB/Titus/Sky/IaI

[I Am Innocent]

I am not so sure I like IAI's claim though. The manner that he outed town's PR's does not add up to me. Being a vig, I don't see how that would have fingered scum reliably enough to ask for PR claims.

Here is how D2 went.

AJ claims BP Doc (2 ways to stop kills)
We now have 2 FN claims
AJ claims to have protected Luna
My kill on Talah did not go through
Nobody protected or roleblocked Skybird...why would I be roleblocked before Skybird?
Nobody countered AJ, which I took that to mean we probably didn't have any town protective roles and maybe AJ was legit and Talah scum

To me, that pointed to scum Talah, in the off chance that there was still a hidden town protective role, that puts AJ's claim in bad light, as mafia doctor is a counter to vig.

So we either caught scum Talah or scum AJ in my eyes.

I think IAI was fishing for roles and he managed to get them. The more I think about this the worse I feel for claiming. I finally get a damn good role and now it is likely that I will not get to use much of it.

VOTE: IAmInnocent

Please explain what your actual plan was IAI because I really do not see why asking for our roles (and needing specifics rather than simply asking if anyone protected talah) is beneficial to town if you are a vig. It is also the ideal scum claim - scum kill anyway.

Okay now this is crap. I didn't ask for specifics. I asked if there were any protective power roles out there. I never asked specifically what they were. I SPECIFICALLY asked you:

Okay guess it can't hurt to ask the following to FA while we wait on the other 2:

FA, who did you target N1 with your ability. If BP is your ability and don't want to give it away, pick a random person not named IAI. If not BP, I need the exact target (don't need to clarify what the ability is tho)

That is as unspecific as I could get. All you had to do was say, I targeted Talah last night, and I would have outted my vig shot on him N1. You were the one who volunteered specifics, so don't put that on me. I did my best to keep this as vague as possible (any protective roles that would have prevented a kill N1, FA who did you target, etc).

************

I'm only going to say this once, the job of any power role is to help town win. In almost all cases, the best use of a power role is to catch scum. If your role catches scum, it is almost always advantageous to trade 1 for 1 imo. You've done your job, end of story.

I was willing to do that. I thought I had scum Talah caught. As soon as he said, I have no night protective abilities (remember he was first to answer me), I thought surely a town protective role would have CC'd AJ already, so this is money in the bag. I will just wait for no one to claim protective role, then profit.

capisce?

[I Am Innocent]

It is also the ideal scum claim - scum kill anyway.

PS - except the number of NK's and who you target do not make it an ideal scum claim.

Like I said earlier, I can prove my role. Just like the claimed FN's. The two who cannot are the ones that have me the most worried.

[I Am Innocent]

VOTECOUNT TWO POINT ATE

VEEGEE - 4 - PERFORMER, TITUS, TALAH, VEDITH,
AJ THE EPIC - 2 - LUNA FOX, FA_Q2,
VEDITH - 1 - FIREBRINGER,
FA_Q2 - 1 - AJ THE EPIC,

NOT VOTING: THEWORST, I AM INNOCENT, VEEGEE, CHANNELDELIBIRD, SKYBIRD,

DEADLINE: (expired on 2015-10-17 07:05:00)

WITH 13 ALIVE IT TAKES 7 TO LYNCH

REPLACING SALAMENCE20

Mod, you appeared to have missed this vote:

Well FAQ's claim lines up with mine.

X-shot Vig (at this time I don't think it benefits anyone but scum to reveal the X)

I shot Talah last night. I'm sure that is probably going to irk some people in here, but the way I saw it, he was my top scum read that was going to be near impossible to be lynched. When he didn't die, and a claimed BP Doc said he did not target him, I figured one (or both) of him and AJ were scum, and that

if nobody claimed to have targeted Talah and he didn't claim BP, he was likely confirmed scum

.

Sorry FAQ, if you really are town aligned, you are down a shot

. May want to consider giving me a list of names that you would BG'd tonight so I stay out of that area.

Obviously my thoughts have changed:

1) Anyone that thinks town has 2 FN's, a 2 shot BP Doc, a 2 shot BP BG, and a vig is just insane. There is too much coordination that could go on starting D2 that would have even a 5 man scum team trembling.

2) FAQ is almost certainly only scum if Talah is, so no reason FAQ should be getting any more votes until we see Talah's flip.

3) AJ's claim with 1 vote still feels the most forced/fake of any here to date. I could see scum AJ panicking after nobody died and a vote coming his way. I still see little motivation for town AJ to do it.

4) I think the FNs should be given at least one more night before we even consider lynching them. Of the two, the first seems more shady to me, as Choof twice reacted badly when pressure started coming his way (first throwing a bunch of votes around, and later the claim with minimal pressure). Then again, the second did involve AJ and the chances of scum fake claiming an odd role like that which just happen to really be in the game is also minimal.

To me it comes back to the 5 town claims. There is no way town is that powered, and of the claims, the shadiest is still AJ.

vote AJ

[BBmolla]

fixed

[I Am Innocent]

Cool, except I'll just pretend that's a 3 next to his name, not a 2 ;p

[Vedith]

So, who we voting?

[Titus]

There's too many scum here...

I am a fan of letting the protectives sort themselves. Firebringer/Sal and VeeGee are obvscum at this point. Only moved off VeeGee because Talah worried me.

Performer is freaking me out with his last post recycling FAQ2's question and then treating me like I am an IC.

[Aj The Epic]

If either one of IaI or Tallah is scum, FA_Q2 is scum with them.

[Skybird]

Titus, I am willing to sheep your for today. Who do you prefer to lynch?

[Titus]

Titus, I am willing to sheep your for today. Who do you prefer to lynch?

Nuclear bomb at this point.

Why are you willing to sheep me?

[Performer]

There's too many scum here...

I am a fan of letting the protectives sort themselves. Firebringer/Sal and VeeGee are obvscum at this point. Only moved off VeeGee because Talah worried me.

Performer is freaking me out with his last post recycling FAQ2's question and then treating me like I am an IC.

I'm just offering my perspective to IaI's plan.

I was only asking that to find out where you were coming from, for the lining up of lynches.

[Titus]

See my answer to FAQ when he asked.

[Aj The Epic]

Then let's settle this day and let the night actions sort themselves as much as we can. I'd still like Vedith lynched.

[Firebringer]

I went and ISO Veegee, he doesn't have super amount of content. Everything he says seems like it has a town kind of motivation and vibe.

I don't see this as his scum game. I don't know if I remember playing with Veegee before so this wasn't including any meta reads of how he has played.

[Aj The Epic]

I don't believe this choof/mence/fire spot is scum. Exclude all claimed roles today and prior town reads, the lynch, for me, comes from this group:

Performer
ChannelDelibird
Vedith
VeeGee

VOTE: Vedith

[FA_Q2]

I think IAI was fishing for roles and he managed to get them. The more I think about this the worse I feel for claiming. I finally get a damn good role and now it is likely that I will not get to use much of it.

VOTE: IAmInnocent

Please explain what your actual plan was IAI because I really do not see why asking for our roles (and needing specifics rather than simply asking if anyone protected talah) is beneficial to town if you are a vig. It is also the ideal scum claim - scum kill anyway.

Okay now this is crap. I didn't ask for specifics. I asked if there were any protective power roles out there. I never asked specifically what they were. I SPECIFICALLY asked you:

Okay guess it can't hurt to ask the following to FA while we wait on the other 2:

FA, who did you target N1 with your ability. If BP is your ability and don't want to give it away, pick a random person not named IAI. If not BP, I need the exact target (don't need to clarify what the ability is tho)

That is as unspecific as I could get. All you had to do was say, I targeted Talah last night, and I would have outted my vig shot on him N1. You were the one who volunteered specifics, so don't put that on me. I did my best to keep this as vague as possible (any protective roles that would have prevented a kill N1, FA who did you target, etc).

Yes, as a matter of fact you did ask for specifics:

If everyone proceeds, I'll out my role and night information, which I believe will lead us to scum.

I really do need specifics on those, but if people want to start with yes or no, I'm fine to start there.

And yes, you did claim that I didn't need to give you much more. That really is not what my issue is though - the issue is that after I out my role we ended up learning nothing. I was having trouble even understanding how you think a failed vig shot would lead to a confirmed scum.

I'm only going to say this once, the job of any power role is to help town win. In almost all cases, the best use of a power role is to catch scum. If your role catches scum, it is almost always advantageous to trade 1 for 1 imo. You've done your job, end of story.

I was willing to do that. I thought I had scum Talah caught. As soon as he said, I have no night protective abilities (remember he was first to answer me), I thought surely a town protective role would have CC'd AJ already, so this is money in the bag. I will just wait for no one to claim protective role, then profit.

capisce?

And I would agree with the first part.

I can at least follow what you were thinking now (scum doc counter to your vig). I will need to think about this a little more. It does fit in well with what I have been seeing thus far though.

[Skybird]

Titus, I am willing to sheep your for today. Who do you prefer to lynch?

Nuclear bomb at this point.

Why are you willing to sheep me?

I'm willing to sheep you because I am town-reading you.

[Luna Fox]

I still want to lynch Aj.

[I Am Innocent]

Ditto

[Aj The Epic]

You're going in the wrong direction.

[talah]

Cliff's notes because I'm playing Isaac tonight and am currently being lazy.

@IaI

- The vig claim is the least believeable claim of all. There's still a missing nightkill to account for. My guess is that I was the sole nightkill and you're claiming it.
Titus did this as scum in Gundam - I referred to it earlier in the game.
I was a stupid vig candidate and you don't appear to have thought it through.
You also ignored my question on whether you'd looked at any of my scum meta before deciding to submit the kill against me. The job of a vig is to make good decisions, or if they can't be bothered researching their targets, to clear ambiguity. Not to go out on a limb because of gut feeling.
I think you didn't think it through beyond what you've already stated and the arguments in favour of vigging me night one were weak.
I also don't believe you had a reason to think Performer was crumbing hider unless it was covering for his claims. You reacted almost neutrally to his vig fakeclaim, demonstrated that you didn't spot any PGO claim, and a hider claim is super convenient if there's a scum JailKeeper. If performer was jailkept, any investigative result would come back as no result and the "crumb" could be easily modified to commuter instead of hider (as both roles avoid a nightkill). It just seems like fakeclaims in the making which was the whole reason I was pushing him so hard day 1.
And you'll note I was focussing on those *defending* him with reasons I considered bad, just as much.

The wagon was still almost impossible to push to L-1 over the full course of a day. That should be something you're suspicious of as a vig. Performer was the best kill last night.

@Performer

- I asked you some specific questions regarding your fake crumbing of claims in post 1746.
Answer them please.

Regarding VeeGee:

We need him to come back in and clarify the following:

@VeeGee - does your Friendly Neighbour message have the word "Town" before the role?

Unfortunately even with what I agree with from Titus - the best outcome we can actually hope for is that VeeGee clarifies this is the case and flips *town*.
In this case AJ and TheWorst would be confirmed scum together. (self-pre-edit actually only AJ would be confirmed scum as he could be awkwarding the claim the same as VeeGee... I'll consider that.)
Otherwise he flips independent scum who decided to respond - awkwardly. A VeeGee scumflip would prove nothing else.

Regarding Friendly Neighbour claims

:
For Skybird to fake-claim FN *prior* to TheWorst town-claiming the same role, the scumteam would have had to have a Day-Rolecop shot and have targetted TheWorst with it.
Otherwise it's a very low probability that the original claim is fake - unless both are.

Regarding AJ/FAQ claims

:
I don't think we have enough evidence / good reasoning to lynch either today.
Even as a hypothetical - my current running theory being that there are simple enough roles which would counter the current town PR claims (minus the Vig claim which I don't believe for a second if it was rounded up to the closest integer) - Consider what I suggested to Performer.
Scum
= 1 unlimited strongman
= 1 jailkeeper
= 2 goons

All that needs to happen for town to be devastated is for the jailkeeper to keep the doc, then scum strongman kills the bodyguard.
Even if we happen to lynch correctly one or the other is preserved and has decent options when it comes to killing the remaining FNs if both of them are true.

There is literally no reason for us to lynch any of these claims today.

The only claim I would lynch is the Vig claim, which is traditionally (and proven in practice if last night's kill is even to be entertained) - a negative utility role.
The fact I don't believe it because it's a essentially a scumclaim targetting me has not much to do with the facts of "which PR would be good to lynch today?".

I'm underwhelmed that we're entertaining that our first lynch after a Day 1 no-kill will be any credible claimed PR which can't do anything to *harm* town tonight.

So - from my perspective these are the options

(in no particular order, although weighted differently):--

1) Get VeeGee to clarify the sameness or differentness of his claimed FN message compared to AJs, and lynch VeeGee if a difference exists
2) Lynch Performer like we should have done yesterday, and who is probably the scum strongman given that there was no forced kill last night, and his slot was under a lot of suspicion and a prime investigative target while scum knew less about roles than they do today
3) Lynch IaI as very probably scum claiming an actual kill attempt on me last night
4) I'm happy with Salamence / Firebird slot based on them pushing me to vote FAQ while voting someone else themselves, and also the role-check from Titus
5) Lynch CDB based on his defense of Performer and offering alternatives of FAQ / Zakk and (he'll disagree here) *effectively* not caring which.

Also super-concerned about Titus for the Performer defence on entry along with the questions I asked catboi about defending Performer which he answered with conflicts and then subbed out. Less concerned than others though as she appears to be doing work scumhunting. It's just the conclusions which take work to get a straight answer about and I'm still in conflict here because quite a lot of her *actions* seem town-motivated to me.


Anywhoo, that's pretty much my thoughts for tonight unless anyone's around in the next half hour and wants to talk.

VOTE: I Am Innocent

[Vedith]

So the tactic for today - Everyone vote the person to your right.

[talah]

What's your tactic?
Not that I understand what you just said.

[Vedith]

My tactic is just to vote wherever need be to ensure a lynch and isn't on a town read.
The problem we have is the idiots tip toeing around all of the claims so we are basically just doing a mass claim just very slowly where we then decide who is lying anyway...