Mini 482: Shrek Mafia - Game Over

[Mexal]

I'm going to read the thread now. I'll post some thoughts in a little while.

[Mexal]

Good lord was that a long and tedious read. As DR pointed out, the entire 9 pages was mostly focused on Grek and Ben. My head hurts from reading all of that.

Initial thoughts are that both Mirth and Grek are pro-town. I don't like Mirth focusing on Grek but I play the same way. If I see something I don't like, I argue it til it's dead. Grek's plan was inherently flawed but I don't believe that's a sign of being scum. I think his answers, while also flawed, were what I would expect from someone who actually believed his plan could succeed. That being said, I'm not going to VPI (very probable innocent...see note at the bottom of my post) them by any means and anything they can or say will be used against them.

I whole heartedly agree with inHim. I hate day 1s and I think that if we spend so much time over analyzing everything, we're going to miss the point. Day 1 is for gathering information and getting thoughts on the board then following through with a lynch so we can gain more information for day 2. A lot of people don't have the ability to notice suspicious things without having something to connect them with (ie: someone completely changing their opinion on day 2 because they were distancing themself on day 1). That being said, I'm all for a lynch and moving on and I think it's detrimental to the game to spend countless days and hours (it's been a month) on day 1. No progression bores people and it doesn't get us anywhere.

The actions of ben, while suspicious, seem (according to be mirth) to be normal. I don't truly buy DR's excuse that he possibly wanted to survive because the simpler answer is he's a terrible player. The actions were scummy and personally, I think they were worthy of a day 1 lynch if only to use the information from the lynch to better ouselves for day 2. But, I think we should give DR a chance to play mainly because I believe Ben was just a bad player.

Now, as for suspicions, Jex and Adam are rubbing me the wrong way. I don't really know why as my head is still hurting from reading this thread, but gut is telling me to go back and look at them. So that's what I'll do when I get a chance.

I will

unvote

until I have a better handle on where everything stands.

Note:

I play on a different site (Westeros) 95% of the time I play Mafia. On that site, day deadlines are 24-32 hours and nights are 8 hours max. That being said, I am very active and I can be impatient. I will use different terminology at times and am in the process of trying to integrate MS terms into my vocabulary for when I play here. I make this disclaimer now for the sole purpose of getting it out of the way because it will be questioned later. But if you have any other questions about me, my playstyle or anything I say, feel free to ask. This isn't meant to curb discussion on it, just warn everyone.

[Mexal]

I just reread Adam the Amazing and Jex and nothing truly stood out to me. I don't know where my negative vibes were coming from. They seemed very agreeable to most things in my first read so maybe that's where I was being caught up. On the other side, they both unvoted at the end of their last post because they were unsure who to vote instead of continuing on a lynch of Grek. The whole action seems more pro-town to me than not so for now, they don't bother me.

Pug89 is going to be next on my reread list. So I'll post some thoughts on him when I get some time.

[Mirth]

Hi, welcome to the game ^_^ I have two questions for you already.

That being said, I'm all for a lynch and moving on and I think it's detrimental to the game to spend countless days and hours (it's been a month) on day 1. No progression bores people and it doesn't get us anywhere.

1. if you're for moving on, whom do you purpose lynching and why?
2. What do you think of your predecessor (I ask this of all people who replace into a game.)

[Mexal]

1. I don't know which is why I'm doing rereads of certain people and posting thoughts as I have them. Wading through the first 10 pages took me almost 2 hours to do without any real time to reflect on it. So I'm playing catch up.

2. My predecessor found fault with Ben which I understand. Other than that, he didn't contribute all that much which is why I'm assuming he was replaced. I hope to rectify that.

[Mexal]

Alright.

I just did a reread of Pug89 and I must say, I'm not impressed at all. Every single post that Pug89 wrote has already been written up by one or more people before him (read his posts, there are only 8 of them). Maybe part of the reason he's doing that is because he's busy and doesn't have time to post or maybe it's because he cannot come up with a case on anyone else so it's easier to just repeat what everyone else has said.

The progression goes from Grek to Ben to Inhim and back to Grek, which is almost exactly how the day has gone thus far. Out of all the people, I find his utter lack of contribution to be the most suspicious thus far.

So because of that, my vote will go on him for the time being.

Vote: Pug89

I'll try to read Nox a little later. But I'm getting the distinct feeling that I'm jumping into a game where no one is playing. And I don't like spending a lot of time if no one plans on participating.

[Jex]

I did a reread of a couple of players that I didn't really have a feel for yet.

Haschel Cedricson:

I read through and overall get a protown vibe from him. He's not on the innocent list by any means, but for now he's not high on my scum list either. Scum or not, his pbpa of mirth and grek were a lot of help for the town. He also seems to be going with a lot of his own thoughts instead of jumping on bandwagons as most others are.

Deliciousgoldfish:

it's hard to get a read. The only player she has gone after has been be, and her last post said she was waiting for Apo to post to see about clearing ben's name. I'm hoping that she will post soon as apo was replaced and Dr has been pretty active. I would like to hear more thoughts on the situation from her.

Pug89:

I reread pug after reading Mexel's post. I haven't really been looking at Pug too hard, and thought I would. I can see where Mexel is coming from. The two players he has brought up as possible scum are the main two: Grek and Ben. His ideas didn't seem to be original. Against grek he used a bunch of Mirth's arguments. He then jumped on the Ben wagon with an FOS and not a vote as soon as attention started turning that way.

I still want to look through a few more players that I don't have a read on, but for now I feel comfortable putting some more pressure on pug.

vote pug89

. Also

FOS Deliciousgoldfish

as she said she would post after Apo spoke, but still hasn't responded.

[Mirth]

I dont have a feel for any of the people you mentioned, but I would very much like to hear more from Pug and Goldfish.

[DeliciousGoldfish]

I dont have a feel for any of the people you mentioned, but I would very much like to hear more from Pug and Goldfish.

Quite frankly I see this post as a contradiction in itself. Not having a feel on any of the people she posted about yet having some need for more information from myself and Pug... Well it just doesn't make sense.

I have been incredibly busy the last two weeks starting school and chasing rats around... It's given me enough time to read and keep up but not enough time to post.

I will

unvote ben/DeadRikamaru

. From what it seems, the beginning player (Ben) always plays poorly. But just because he is a poor player doesn't mean I'm going to automatically let his replacement off the hook... I will still have MEOY.

Mirth gets my suspicion currently because of his post asking myself and Pug to just speak up even though he's not suspicious of anyone. And also for just hammering Dead Rikamaru... It seems that all he's trying to do is get people to feel some sort of nervousness in order to pounce.

That's my current read...

[Mirth]

I dont have a feel for any of the people you mentioned, but I would very much like to hear more from Pug and Goldfish.

Quite frankly I see this post as a contradiction in itself. Not having a feel on any of the people she posted about yet having some need for more information from myself and Pug... Well it just doesn't make sense.

How exactly am I contridicting myself? I said I have no feel for you. Meaning I do not have enough from you to form an opinion one way or the other. Meaning I would like to hear more from you to form an opinion one way or the other. (Note how I also asked to hear more from Zindaras a few posts ago, because I don't have an opinion there either). I'm asking for you to post because you haven't posted in a while. That's it. Why are you blowing it out of proportion?

[DeliciousGoldfish]

Could you then reiterate who you

do

have a feel on then?

You must have a feel on everyone except for myself and Pug.

[DeliciousGoldfish]

I just did a brief readthrough and well... That whole beginning play by Inhim and ben still leaves a funny taste in my mouth. I know ben is supposed to be this experienced player but as shown by his play not necessarily involving InHim... He's not at all beyond making large obvious mistakes. Quite frankly, no one is.

[Mirth]

First of all, thank you for not answering my question. Also I do not understand your comments about Ben and InHim please explain them.

Second, no, I don't have a feel on everyone, but the reason I'm asking you and Pug to post is because you have a total of 8 posts. They're not very long or wordy and when I asked for you to post more, you hadn't posted for a week. Pug has 9 posts with large gaps in between them. And I remembered that the two of you hadn't posted in a while.

I don't have a significant enough feel on anyone yet as this thread is lacking conversation. But here are my opinions so far (or lack there of), if you must know:

InHim: While I don't like his wagon jumping, I think his explanations for it are valid, so, while I will be watching him closely (speaking of, I would also like to hear more from him), I don't think he's mafia at this point.

Camisade/Mexal: no opinion, and I don't feel the need to explicitly ask for opinions because Mexal seems active.

Grek: The only person who is really talking in this thread. He's the only one I really have enough material to suspect (i.e. he's the only one who posted enough for me to really attempt analyzing anything). If I would have to vote now, my vote would probably go back to Grek, but a lot of it is based on nobody else talking.

Adam: Adam strikes me as protown, as he does throw out valid questions. (I would also like to hear more from Adam, but did not feel the need to ask for a comment specifically as he post a day or two ago)

Jex: No opinion yet, but I don't feel a need to ask for posts due to recent posting.

Nox: Another person I don't have any opinion on. Speaking of which, I would really like to hear more from Nox. I didn't realize how long ago her last post was.

Zindaras: I'm a little suspicious of Zindaras for putting words in my mouth and trying to ascribe to me absolute opinions that I do not possess, but I want to hear more from him. I already asked for more posts.

Ben/DR: Not sure. Ben played poorly in the other game I was in with him, so I think that that was mostly playstyle. Haven't heard enough from DR to think anything yet.

Pug: No opinion, would like to hear more.

Haschel: not much of an opinion, but leaning toward protown for analysis posts a while back. Would like to hear more from him, and would like an explanation of his current vote on me, but don't feel the need to explicitly prod. He posted recently.

Goldfish: No opinion. Hence me asking you to post.

There you go. It pretty much boils down to "I really want to hear more from practically everyone. And I will actively ask the people who haven't posted in a while."

[Haschel Cedricson]

Here's a pbpa on Adam the Amazing.

First Post:

A random vote on a player he knows in real life. Nothing to see here.

Second Post:

Another joke post. Again, no substance unless we hold that Mafia are more likely to joke around, which I don't. Especially not that early in the game.

Third Post:

Finally, some game-related content. However, Adam sees nothing scummy about L-2 at this stage, commenting that a quicklynch is "shaky at best for scum". I'm not sure why he he references C9 games, but I'm not particularly worried about this post.

Be aware of the pirate.

I assume that's me. Hopefully everybody is aware of everybody else in the game.

Fourth Post:

Alright, here's something I don't like. Adam suggests that either Grek and Mirth are distancing, or have at least one townie among them. This statement is, of course, necessarily true, but I get a small feeling that Adam is trying to bind Grek and Mirth to each other, possibly for later use. I'm not sure what the gain would be, although if hypothetically we lynch Grek AND Mirth and both are scum, I'm going to be looking at Mr. Adam very closely.

Fifth Post:

Repeats how hard the "distancing" appears to be. Again, Adam suggests that because of the intensity of debate, one of those two must be town. This post and the one before it are designed to convince the rest of us that the debate is NOT distancing. Either he really believes this or has some ulterior motive in mind.

Sixth Post:

Most of this post is pretty pro-town, considering the actions of benhalkum. I do note the irony of the sentence

This sounds like you're trying to hitch yourself up with Mirth's alignment.

when he himself has a tendency to link people's alignments together. Nevertheless, FoSing instead of voting is a pro-town tell.

Seventh Post:

A quarter of the town is trying to kill us, you say? Not, say, a third of the town, or a sixth of the town? Wow. I didn't know that. How did you know that?

Eighth Post:

I have no problem with him unvoting ben. I'm not crazy about his vote on Grek, although, admittedly I'm a bit biased on the Mirth/Grek debate. However, this part sticks out to me:

I believe that from the way you were wording your posts (which I don't really want to get into, because it's all those big posts in the argument w/ Mirth), that you are not telling the truth. I am a huge LAL fan, because it's very rare that townies should want to deceive the town.

If you're going to hint that we should lynch Grek under LAL, you should at least point out the supposed lies.

Nineth Post:

Nothing to analyze.

Tenth Post:

He's been reading, and he's been waiting for Apo. No surprises here.

Eleventh AND Twelveth Posts:

Gah. There's a reason I don't get into WIFOM arguments with people: they can go on forever, and we have no way of knowing which glass is poisoned. If anybody else did this, I would vote them on the spot for bringing in this amount of unwarranted confusion. Unfortunately, I know that you do this all the goddamn time, so it's a null tell.

Thirteenth Post:

I'm not sure what he's hooraying, because I'm looking at only his posts. I'm sure it's exciting, though.

Fourteenth Post:

Adam states that although Mirth is right in the argument, the debate means nothing about either of their alignments. That's a pretty noncommittal conclusion for a debate that took up half the game so far. I agree with his conclusion about how to treat DR, though. A replacement should be judged primarily on THEIR play, not their predecessor.

Final Conclusion:

For the most part, Adam the Amazing has done a fairly good job of appearing to be town. Nevertheless, on the reread I found several things that I did not like. I'm not going to vote him this early when I think there are better suspects out there, but Adam has been flying under the radar for the most part, and I think we would all do well to remember he is here.

Later today: inHimshallibe, Zindaras.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Here's a pbpa on Zindaras.

First Post:

Zindy comes right out of the gate with analysis; no random voting for him. The question raised to Grek is a valid one, and his comment about inHim is spot-on. The fourth vote is an important one in a 12-player game. Lastly, he chooses to start with pressuring benhalkum, which based on his play, is a perfectly reasonable place to start. No red flags here.

Second Post:

A comment about an ongoing game being referenced by other players. He is correct again.

Third Post:

Rationale for the ben vote. Again, everything is on the up-and-up so far.

Fourth Post:

Here Zindaras starts applying the thumbscrews to ben. ben's playstyle up to this point was warranted pressuring, and Zindaras steps up to the plate.

Fifth Post:

In this post, Zindaras unvotes to slow the speed of the wagon. This is consistant with a player who originally voted for pressure reasons: Zindy's goal with his first vote was to get information, not end the day with a lynch. I think this is a pro-town move.

Sixth Post:

Here I have a slight disagreement on Mafia doctrine with Zindy: I'm not convinced that all first-day votes need an explanation. In fact, particularly on Day One, explaining a vote can defeat the purpose of pressuring. As for the jester, I'm not convinced we have one, but if what Zindaras says about our mod is true, then I suppose we can consider it. Briefly.

Seventh Post:

The thumbscrews are off of ben and are now subtlely being applied to Mirth. However, he states that

Your Grek case is nice.

even though he has been pasking Mirth about it. If he already understands the case, I'm not sure what the point of his questions were. I agree with his conclusion about Grek, but, we already knew that.

Eighth Post:

Nothing pro-or-anti-town in this post.

Nineth Post:

But I do not see how it was clear and/or obvious that you did not want others to vote Grek, as making a case and subsequently voting usually does, in fact, mean just that.

This is true.

Tenth And Eleventh Posts:

This is an aside on whether stating arguments stifles independant debate or not. There is nothing to analyze here, so I'm moving on.

Twelveth Post:

Back to ben. Zindaras is right about the jester discussion. Other than that, there is nothing here except for a question posed to benhalkum.

Thirteenth Post:

Hooray for not eliminating possibilities! He comments on how wagons form faster than usual in this game. He also says he will have to "see if [he] likes [inHim's] explanation. Well, what do you think?

Fifteenth Post:

Oh. Well, get caught up soon, then.

Final Conclusion:

Based on his play and scumhunting tactics, I am prepared to say that I think Zindaras is the second-towniest person here. I can't wait for him to make up for lost time, because I didn't really find any scumtells at all.

[Dead Rikimaru]

I just asked if you think Grek is scum and who else you suspect. Normal mafia questions. If I'm not accusing you why are you so defensive?

Because I've yet to see someone go through posts and actually count the number of times one player mentions another player's name. (Though I am new on this site, I have read through a pile of completed games to get the gist of what is supposed to be going on.) This, obviously, bothers me. Ergo I am defensive. Also suspicious.

Not that much work.
I noticed the name Grek showed too much in your posts, so I made the forum display all posts from you, clicked control+f and counted the Grek's.
Just took few seconds, but you keep repeating and repeating this as if it were a carefully planned attack.
Also, if you had gotten the gist of what's ging on you wouldn't get overly defensive on non-attacks.

Nice bit of analysis there, but you seem to have missed something. Ben put a vote on me. I did not have any votes prior to him. He gave, as his reason, a copy and paste of Grek's post arguing with my argument against Grek's theory and didn't explain that vote when asked about it. Now, I might be wrong, but one vote does not constitute a bandwagon. This was also before people started questioning me about arguing with Grek. Therefore I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I wasn't in any danger of being lynched right at that moment and certainly didn't have a bandwagon on me.

Following through with your bit of logic, then, if Ben really wanted a lynch that wasn't himself for the sake of having a lynch that wasn't himself, wouldn't he have voted someone with votes on them already? Like, for instance, Grek or Nox or Jex? Yet he didn't go along with the peanut gallery. Nor did he actually provide a reason for voting me. The problem with Ben was not in his vote, but rather in his lack of explanation for the vote.

So then, since your opinion references a situation that did not occur, could I ask you to please comment on Ben in this context?

Just because I meant he was happy to jump on any bandwagon (obviously meaning he didn't care on who he was voting, as everyone seems to have understood) you take my words out of context (as if I had said he would only vote if it was already a bandwagon) and try to make my point null by saying you had not enough votes to be considered in a bandwagon?
lol, such a boring and long way of saying nothing.

I have said enough about ben. I would still like to hear Zindaras, inHim and nox comments on grek and ben/dead rikimaru situations as i requested.

Mirth: I've been busy. With stuff. There are some games which I've let down. This is one of them. I intend to make up for it pretty soon.

He posted 45 times on the site after this.
And we are on a deadline!!!
Lurking scum avoiding the spotlights before the deadline much?

vote: Zindaras

[Mirth]

Not that much work.
I noticed the name Grek showed too much in your posts, so I made the forum display all posts from you, clicked control+f and counted the Grek's.
Just took few seconds, but you keep repeating and repeating this as if it were a carefully planned attack.
Also, if you had gotten the gist of what's ging on you wouldn't get overly defensive on non-attacks.

...I did not even think of that. I'm not particularly computer savvy and were I to count words, I'd be doing it manually, because up until now I didn't know there was another way to count individual words.

Just because I meant he was happy to jump on any bandwagon (obviously meaning he didn't care on who he was voting, as everyone seems to have understood) you take my words out of context (as if I had said he would only vote if it was already a bandwagon) and try to make my point null by saying you had not enough votes to be considered in a bandwagon?
lol, such a boring and long way of saying nothing.

Anyone else, who? As I see it, not that many people are actually responding to anything. And I also don't see you actually answering my question. The purpose of my post is not to invalidate your point, but to point out that your reasoning is unsubtantiated and ask for an analysis of Ben consistent with what actually happened and not a theoretic cause that does not apply to this game. I also think that your opinion of Ben might be valuable in future context.

At Haschel: I think that you're doing exactly what you seem to accuse Adam of doing, i.e. attempting to define scum groups without really defining them and present your alignment as contrary to them. Just like you say Adam tries to tie me and Grek together, you're tying him in with the two of us, wheather consciously or subconsiously.

[Grek]

I'm going to do a Play by play on DeliciousGoldfish:

Post 1:

First random vote on nox. Nothing to see here.

Post 2:

After about a week, she puts a 4th vote on ben, saying she doesn't know how many that makes. Odd that she was absent while Mirth and me where talking but shows up in time to get on a bandwagon. Not to say that ben didn't diserve votes, but it is a bit suspicious. Says she's been gone for RA training. Seems to misunderstand the phrase "weak sauce".

Post 3:

8 days later, she says she thinks Inhim scummy and ben scummier. Makes a peculiar (IMO) comment about voting for both if she chould. says she will be able to post more next week.

Post 4:

4 minutes later, accuses Ben and Inhim of being scumbuddies. Interesting theroy, does make some sense. If one of them turns out to be scum, we definatly should look into this further. Mirth says he doesn't agree with it 12 minutes later.

Post 5:

Makes some good points. People are guilty until proven innocent and it is good to let a person defend themselves. What she says about double guessing doesn't seem right. Most people wouldn't do somthing scummy and expect WIFOM to make it ok.

Post 6:

Says Apo hasn't posted, feels the need to say her vote stands. Unsure why.

Post 7:

Says that not having a read on someone and wanting them to post is contradictory. That's not true. Still busy. Unvotes, good idea. Suspects mirth. Seems OMGUSey.

Post 8:

Questions Mirth, puts words in Mirth's mouth. Not very good logic here.

Post 8:

Reinterates her suspision of Ben and Inhim. Points out how poorly Ben was playing. Not sure why she unvoted if she still suspects him.

All in all, I'm not likeing the vibes I get from DeliciousGoldfish. Not 100% scum, but enough to make me uneasy. I still prefer Inhim over anyone else, but DG isn't too far below.

[DeliciousGoldfish]

Mirth: I do not feel like one post about a contradiction I felt you made (which I honestly don't believe could be anymore thoroughly explained) is blowing anything out of proportion.

I simply wanted to know why if you didn't have a read on anyone you were wanting only myself and Pug to post more. I asked and received. There were no blowings or proportions anywhere. You weren't voted for or even FOSed... So unscrunch your panties.

Grek: The reason I haven't posted in the last 3 weeks is because I've been busy literally 24 hours a day, 7 days a week with 17 and 18 year old freshmen children who just don't get it. I did let my vote stand on "Ben" because Apo hadn't said anything to provoke an unvote from myself. I think everyone at this point is OMGUSey. I only went that way with Mirth because I do believe that if you say you don't have a read or suspicions then ask only two specific players.... That's odd. Maybe it's only odd to me but it's not like I voted or even FOSed Mirth. I unvoted because DR has done an okay job with their posts and because I had enough people tell me that Ben was just a bad player in every game he partook in. I did say I've got my eye on him though.

Now for homework... BAH!!!

[Haschel Cedricson]

Due to delays, I will not finish my pbpa's on inHim or Jex until tomorrow. Please don't LAL.

[Mirth]

Mirth: I do not feel like one post about a contradiction I felt you made (which I honestly don't believe could be anymore thoroughly explained) is blowing anything out of proportion.

I simply wanted to know why if you didn't have a read on anyone you were wanting only myself and Pug to post more. I asked and received. There were no blowings or proportions anywhere. You weren't voted for or even FOSed... So unscrunch your panties.

First of all, watch your language please.

Second, you call suspicion on me for asking to hear more from barely active players. (Yes, I count you in this category.) This strikes me as a) blowing a simple request out of proportion and b) ignoring the fact that we're on a deadline. That ends in less than 4 days, by the way. Speaking of,

Mod, I know that we're not producing very much conversation here, but is there any chance of either getting rid of it or pushing it back at least? Also can you please prod Nox who hasn't posted in over a week?

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

I activity continues, there will be a chance of deadline increasement. Nox probably needs replacery.

[Pug89]

Pug89: I reread pug after reading Mexel's post. I haven't really been looking at Pug too hard, and thought I would. I can see where Mexel is coming from. The two players he has brought up as possible scum are the main two: Grek and Ben. His ideas didn't seem to be original. Against grek he used a bunch of Mirth's arguments. He then jumped on the Ben wagon with an FOS and not a vote as soon as attention started turning that way.

I happened to agree a lot with Mirth on the Grek issue. There were several times at the begginging of the game were I noticed something while reading and was going to post something about it to find that Mirth had already said the same thing; there's nothing I can do about that. The reason I only FOS'd ben is because my main suspicions are with Grek and a few people had mentioned that his play was similar in other games and so didn't necessarily indicate he was scum.

[Mexal]

I happened to agree a lot with Mirth on the Grek issue. There were several times at the begginging of the game were I noticed something while reading and was going to post something about it to find that Mirth had already said the same thing; there's nothing I can do about that. The reason I only FOS'd ben is because my main suspicions are with Grek and a few people had mentioned that his play was similar in other games and so didn't necessarily indicate he was scum.

Ok. So you agree with what most people say yet you play off the thoughts as your own. They are not. If you agree, you say you agree then you go looking at other people. But you don't. You focus on the people that others focus on without truly looking yourself. We call those people parrots.

So lets hear some thoughts. What do you think of Zindaras? DR? DG? HC? Jex? Nox? How about thoughts on people who are NOT under direct suspicion of others. You don't have to post about all of them but at least make an attempt to contribute some original thoughts to the discussion.

[Jex]

I didn't realize that we were going to start doing a PBPA on everyone. I find it interesting that Grek randomly started doing a PBPA after Haschel started doing them. I also don't like that Grek decided to do a PBPA on delicious right after I brought her up as a suspect. He seems to send his attention wherever he thinks he can sway the most votes, and delicious is his new target.

I forget who pointed it out as I just did a quick read-through of the last posts, but I agree that Zin is kinda sketch with posting everywhere else but not in this game. I'll do a reread of him and a few other players that I haven't really looked at a little later today.

As for mexel's question, I still find HC pretty protown. However, I would like to hear more from him besides PBPAs.

Delicious I don't really know what to think of yet. I've played with her in past games and she acts similar to what she is now. I also know that's she's really busy. I've been an RA...the first month sucks

Jex is me, so I'll leave that up to other people to analyze.

Zin and DR I'll do a read-through of later on in the day.

Now I'm off to set up utilities for my house...more money to spend...woot