Mini 482: Shrek Mafia - Game Over

[Grek]

Defends Ben fiercly over a true statement by Zindaras

That doesn't look like defense to me, just an atempt to make sense of why ben was acting like ben.

Yuh hu. Scumtell.

Being reluctant to put another vote for someone without hearing what they have to say even if you think them scumy is a scumtell now? Why didn't you go after zindie for unvoting?

I don't see it.

He is saying he is one of the good guys and trying to get the sympathy from the players so they will buy his arguements. That's an emotional appeal.

You don't move your vote cause someone whinges about it.

It wasn't doing any good where it was. Me unvoting was like someone unvoting a presure vote once they got the information. Only in my case it was a gambit that was over rather than some presuring.

So you think Nox is scum on page 5?

I don't know if she is scum, but I hadn't seen anything scumy to make me think voting to lynch her was a good idea. So I unvoted.

I would be much obliged if you would stop strawmanning and come up with a decent arguement against something.

[Mirth]

Scum=
Haschel (for posting without saying much)
Grek (for doing the Greky things)
and ben is on the list (for being ben)

If you think this, could you please explain why in greater depth. Also, honestly, I don't understand why you made a scum list if you're not done with a read through. I understand noting "I think so-and-so is suspicious here" on a pbp, but by ascribing a classification one way or the other in the middle of an initial read might throw you off.

[Zindaras]

Rereading the game, the first thing that catches my eye is Pug's 10. Interesting there is the lack of random vote. In Post 14, inHim votes Grek for his random vote. Rather silly, that. The hypocrisy in inHim's 22 has already been pointed out. I personally find inHim scummier there than Grek, even if Grek casted a later vote. inHim actually makes it clear that he's voting Nox for the third vote, while I find Grek's explanation for his move acceptable if deluded. Rating initial reactions (on gut, mainly):

Mirth (24): +/-
Haschel (25): +
Adam (27): -
Pug89 (29): -
Jex (30): +
camisade (32): Eh, iffy. Slightly -

I think Mirth is very much right in her debate with Grek. However, I find his explanation believable enough that I don't think it warrants a lynch (He's not right in his suggestion that 2 scum would pile on the townie to kill him, but I can believe he would think that). ben's 37 still looks horrible. I like Pug's 39. I really like Haschel's 44, if only because it expresses the same feelings as I have, reading this thread. Same feelings regarding Jex.

But if that's the case, then they're distancing so hard...

Some people like hard distancing. I wouldn't say anything about this, especially if you don't know the people in question.

Mirth's 54 is rather weak. I don't see the point in denying distancing. Mirth doesn't find inHim's vote any more suspicion than Nox's or Jex's. However, Nox and Jex made it clear their votes were jokes (Care Bear discussion). inHim's vote was deadly serious. A third vote is also Lynch-4. Not even halfway, there. A fourth vote is Lynch-3, already a lot closer. In theory, a 3-player scumgroup could pile on at that point, making that move more dangerous. Minor defence of ben by Mirth in 63.

You think without a shadow of a doubt Mirth is Town, then tell me. I'll go with my fellow good guys

Another horrible post, in my opinion. Acts like a sheep, with an appeal to emotion.

We get a bit of a benwagon, in 76-78, with Haschel, Adam and Goldy expressing suspicion in Votes or FoSes.

More later.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Deadline is extended until the 14th of september

[Mirth]

Zindaras, what do the plus/minus signs mean? Is that agreement/disagreement with a person's point in that post?

[Zindaras]

A + is given for a post I found pro-town, a - for a post I found scummy.

[Mirth]

Ah. Okay.

[Adam The Amazing]

Drat. I'm going to add a little extra slash mark through mine to make me look better.

ATA: +

Ahh, there. Much better.

[Oman]

Scum=
Haschel (for posting without saying much)
Grek (for doing the Greky things)
and ben is on the list (for being ben)

If you think this, could you please explain why in greater depth. Also, honestly, I don't understand why you made a scum list if you're not done with a read through. I understand noting "I think so-and-so is suspicious here" on a pbp, but by ascribing a classification one way or the other in the middle of an initial read might throw you off.

I can't do much now (limited access) but I will say that I disagree with this on theory.

You'll note I didn't vote for a single one of them. Why? Because I haven't finished my readthrough. That list is fluid, and liable to change in any post. I feel (at the point I'm up to) that that is correct from a first read. I really don't see the problem with one of these.

The only problem I could see you having is perhaps a scumbuddy on that list? (Drats, I've been getting relativly pro-town from you though).

[Dead Rikimaru]

I don't know why I thought this year would be any different. Confused School takes too much of my time, especially this year, and from my first week alone I really don't think I can responsibly post every one or two days, so I'm going to nip the problem in the bud. Sorry to all the moderators who have to replace me. I'm sending a list of my 3 setups to raj (Newbie 410, 431, and Open 39) so someone can pick them up if they are to continue.

I'll still be around on AIM... maybe... and my e-mail still works if you need to get in touch with me. If I ever come back here it'd have to be in a year and a half. Wink

See y'all around, and take care. Smile

I was checking the Vacation/ Limited Access thread and saw this.
I though the mod might be interested.

By the way,

unvote

for now.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I'm back on dial-up Internet, so I will not be checking quite as frequently until I get moved back to college. Sorry.

[Mirth]

Oman, fair enough answer, just throwing the possibility out there. I'm not so much concerned with invidual players on your list, just your reasons for throwing them all on there. (I'm also curious why you think they're connected)

[Oman]

They're not connected, at least not yet.

I try not to connect players while their factions are unknown, as it usually leads to a townie getting lynched for "distancing" when he really did catch the scum.

Still on limited access, but finishing the last pages tomorrow.

[Jex]

Jex, I was actually asking Pug89, not you but thanks for answering anyway

Sorry, I thought your question was geared toward everyone. Guess I misread.

I don't believe Grek's pbpa to be all that suspicious. I mean, when I brought up Pug89 as a suspect, you immediately went back and reread him. What's so suspicious about Grek doing the same thing to DG? Seems hypocritical to criticize Grek for doing the exact thing you did, albeit in a different fashion.

I guess for me it's more than just him jumping on the DG analysis. It seems that he is quick to jump on whoever is being put under the microscope. He chooses to not look at someone until they are brought up, then attack, then sit back and wait until either he needs to defend himself or he needs to shift attention. It seems to be a pattern with him. Maybe I'm looking too much into things, I don't really know.

I don't really have much to add about the last few posts. I'd like to hear more from Oman once he finished reading the thread. I feel a lot that was brought up in the past two pages or so has been hashed out to death (for example the Grek's scum finding plan) and I don't have anything to add to that as I've already said all of my thoughts on the subject.

[Zindaras]

Continuing my earlier analysis.

Grek leans heavily towards ben being scum (85). Good post by Jex (87). Ben makes a horrible post (92). Jester suggestion by Grek (93), not sure how much I like that. Ben says his vote was random (99), which I believed it was quite clearly not. Odd suggestion of breadcrumbing by Mirth (105). Nox suggests distancing between Mirth and Grek (108), and I have to say I can't see it. Odd suggestion. I still think Mirth's reaction to my question (109 and following) is odd. Reasonably good PbPA by Haschel (113). Haschel's second PbPA (121) is worse, in my opinion. His PbPA is clearly from a pro-Grek point of view, and that's not a good thing. Another strange post by ben (135). InHim wagons Grek (141). I still don't like this post. Ben defends inHim (145), in another post I find really weird. Ben's ignored most other posters, but now he suddenly has input to give. Hophop, Mirth onto inHim (146), also calling out ben. Ben quickly responds, also switching his vote (147). A very scummy post indeed. Mirth notes this (149). Another post that jumps out as scummy to me from inHim (162). Haschel (174) and Adam (175) are waiting for Apo.

More later. My personal suspicions at this moment lie with inHim and ben.

[Oman]

Sorry for the delay:

Though obviously I can't PROVE this until the game ends or they are nked or lynched but... I believe I have a good theory goin.

This sounds like psuedo-uninformed. The idea that Goldfish knows something but is trying to feign ignorance. I also think the InHim+ben scumpair is unlikely (just a pair btw?)

@ Delicious: I like your point about the scum buddies (ben and inhim). I don't know if I'm completely ready to link both, but they are equally sketchy and seem to have rather strange play tactics at the moment. I want to do a reread of the game (probably tomorrow because it's late) and look more into this theory.

This response is pro-town (whether jex is or not is...undecided).

I don't like how quickly this is escalating, especially since InHim hasn't said very much. I would like to hear more from him.

Mirth is obviously pro-town, or playing very, very well.

I'm anti-ben's bandwagon because of its speed.

I thought speed was okay as long as we're bandwagoning for bandwagoning's sake?

I really didn't mean to make it so black and white... all this is snowballing from my initial reads on this game. I'm taking the stance I do now toward ben because of the resistance I am now experiencing.

Really, really backpedaling/floundering.

I feel his past few posts have been nothing but "yes lets look at inhim now" type posts.

I agree with this and say that jex is getting more townie-brownies as I read.

How could wagoning for wagoning's sake be of any benefit to the town?

He/I/Nox/I is wrong. Do not listen to this. I think everyone knows the benefit of wagons.

I'm assuming you know what vibes are, and so would know why I think it's silly you ask that I post them..?

If you're scum it gives us hints as to your buddy? If you're town it gives us information on what you think/feel. This really is anti-town.

It forces the scum to post some information that could be used to incriminate them later while promoting discussion.

I finally agree with Grek!

I'm going to tactfully ignore the question, pretend you really said, "I took the time to read your posts and wish you a good night," and go to sleep.

Its hypocritical, as Grek posted why InHim should post and yet InHim is saying that Grek didn't read HIS posts. This just looks...weird. Its a little too obvobv scum, there is no willingness to please or empathy for other characters. I refuse to use the "too scummy to be scum" arugment and will say this looks doubleplus ungood.

I brought it up twice in response to ben's ridiculously scummy posts and twice in response to posts talking about jesters.

Grek has kept talking about this jester thing, which means the town wouldn't want to lynch ben/apo. Grek+Apo scumbuddies?

...And yes, this is my response to the prod. I've been reading the thread.

Lurker. That is all.

but it looked like this particular post was set up for Grek dying during the night and you claiming "that's not what I would have done!" That's not necessarily where that post was intended to go, but I got a couple vibes of laying groundwork for later in that post.

Reaching...really reaching.

The possibility of other killing roles besides Mafia. We could have a serial killer. We could have a vigilante

Okay, here is the

Offical Oman Speculation

Mafia group (obvobv) - Misses NK for some reason(?)
Vig (pro town) - Doesn't NK N1 due to it being a stupid thing to do.
SK (anti-town) - Doesn't NK N1 due to the possibility of claiming vig later.

I'd doubt all three, so I'm going to say there is a scumgroup and a vig/SK. We should know by tomorrow (in that SK will kill more pro-town players and vig will kill scummier (WIFOM!))

I love the WIFOM being typed out. It's absolutely correct,

He is the instigator of the WIFOM argument...and now he's against it?

I was saying in my previous post that nothing you say about who you suspect will effect the mafia's night choice,

This post is full of wrong with a sprinkling of Phail.

Also, if we were in Kingmaker and you were the Queen who would be on your "Execution List"?

I happen to like this question. But:

Mirth, all you pretty much did during the whole game was discuss Grek's strategies.

This post is BS. Mirth has done some of the best protown work for this game.

He just wanted to survive.

Ping, ping, pingping, pingpingping. Sorry thats my breadcrumb-o-meter.

In her last post, Mirth avoided mentioning the word Grek even once, in order to decrease her average of Grek's per post.

Actually, I mentioned Grek's name once in that post. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on it, since you're so keen on counting the number of times I use his name

Mate...she owned you...hard.

Naturally, you can slip into whatever niche you want with replacing into the game, not having to follow your predecessor's footsteps

Can I?

I'd like to make comment here that Zindie's absence is on my DO NOT WANT list. However, I have a soft spot for the Kitty Kween and so I'm going to believe the story about RL (curses).

For now, I will vote: Mirth.

I feel this is misguided. Also, rather out of place after the last argument with Riki. I would also like to point out is the most active player that is copping heat (and I get that a LOT!).

I play on a different site (Westeros) 95% of the time I play Mafia.

This has scum written all over it [/joke]

Every single post that Pug89 wrote has already been written up by one or more people before him (read his posts, there are only 8 of them).

A very good catch. This dedication to the game (three/four rereads) puts Mexal next to Mirth on my town list.

Quite frankly I see this post as a contradiction in itself. Not having a feel on any of the people she posted about yet having some need for more information from myself and Pug... Well it just doesn't make sense.

You know, suspicion and desire for contriubution are not mutually exclusive. This is one of the worst deflections I've EVER seen.

You must have a feel on everyone except for myself and Pug.

Note how I also asked to hear more from Zindaras a few posts ago, because I don't have an opinion there either

You fail seriously bad at reading.

He posted 45 times on the site after this.
And we are on a deadline!!!
Lurking scum avoiding the spotlights before the deadline much?

I'll admit that it looks bad, Zind-monster should be posting in the game. However, this is fairly aggressive and leaps to a lynch right away using the imperitive "lurking scum avoiding the spotlights".

After that Goldfish just gets worse and worse and worse.

Oman's list

SCUM= Goldfish, Pbug, plus one or two others
UNSURE = Riki (leaning towards sum on this, but I'm not getting anything more than weak vibes)
TOWN= Mirth, Mexal

Oman's Action

Vote: Goldfish

[Mirth]

I'm assuming you know what vibes are, and so would know why I think it's silly you ask that I post them..?

If you're scum it gives us hints as to your buddy? If you're town it gives us information on what you think/feel. This really is anti-town.

I'm going to tactfully ignore the question, pretend you really said, "I took the time to read your posts and wish you a good night," and go to sleep.

Its hypocritical, as Grek posted why InHim should post and yet InHim is saying that Grek didn't read HIS posts. This just looks...weird. Its a little too obvobv scum, there is no willingness to please or empathy for other characters. I refuse to use the "too scummy to be scum" arugment and will say this looks doubleplus ungood.

While you're earned a cookie for the 1984 reference, I don't think InHim has done anything innately scummy (yet). He's most certainly not been very helpful, and I don't like his playing, yes, but I've seen a similar playstyle in protown players. I would like to here more from him (or rather his replacement, since he already gave up modding the newbie game I'm in, and I'm pretty sure he also gave up this one).

Mafia group (obvobv) - Misses NK for some reason(?)
Vig (pro town) - Doesn't NK N1 due to it being a stupid thing to do.
SK (anti-town) - Doesn't NK N1 due to the possibility of claiming vig later.

I'd doubt all three, so I'm going to say there is a scumgroup and a vig/SK. We should know by tomorrow (in that SK will kill more pro-town players and vig will kill scummier (WIFOM!))

I was under the impression that an SK has to kill everynight, so I'm going to say that unless we have more than one doctor/role-blocker, and they all got really lucky, an SK is probably unlikely. Also, if we have an SK, the SK wouldn't in fact go for more protown players. The SK would probably rather go for mafia in this game, since they are night-killing and could put an SK in more danger than a day-lynch.

You know, suspicion and desire for contriubution are not mutually exclusive. This is one of the worst deflections I've EVER seen.

I think you mean mutually

in

clusive here

I'll need to do a reread at some point, but the next few days are going to be hard, so while I]ll be able to keep up, I won't be able to reread until probably Weds night.

[Pug89]

Rereading the game, the first thing that catches my eye is Pug's 10. Interesting there is the lack of random vote.

I don't random vote anymore. There was an incident where it got me a lot of suspicion so I just stopped doing it. It was in Stephen King mafia if anyone's interested. Why exactly is me not random voting interesting? What exactly do you find suspicious of post 29?

As for Pug89, he doesn't seem to have posted anything noteworthy, just reinterated things other people said without changing his vote. Like he is trying to look active without geting any attention pointed his way. I Ttink I'll put a third vote on him for presure.

I haven't changed my vote on you because I still think you are scum; I thought you were scum on Page 2 and I still think you are. It's not likely to change anytime soon.

There really was no reason, other than to see how Mirth and everyone else reacted. Of course, nobody reacted at all until now, and I forgot that I had indeed shifted to her.

This reason bothers me. He may be telling the truth but this combined with his Pro-Grek stance throughout the game makes me slightly suspicious.

[Zindaras]

I don't random vote anymore. There was an incident where it got me a lot of suspicion so I just stopped doing it. It was in Stephen King mafia if anyone's interested. Why exactly is me not random voting interesting?

Because most people do make random votes.

What exactly do you find suspicious of post 29?

Focus on Grek, not on inHim.

[DeliciousGoldfish]

Quite frankly I see this post as a contradiction in itself. Not having a feel on any of the people she posted about yet having some need for more information from myself and Pug... Well it just doesn't make sense.

You know, suspicion and desire for contriubution are not mutually exclusive. This is one of the worst deflections I've EVER seen.

One of the worst eh? I still stand by it. When it's said all in the same breath, it just doesn't stand well with me. AGAIN, did I point any fingers or vote? No. I simply pointed it out. But I sure am getting a lot of crap from Oman, Mirth and Grek for it. Even if it was just something I didn't feel comfortable about.... But as y'all keep hacking it to death... Here's an OMGUSy

FOS

for all 3 of you. So now you can all be pissed and vote for me since I really have FOSed you. (Insert petty sarcasm:twisted: )

Oman: I get worse and worse? You might want to delve into that since you saw it imperative that you vote for me.

[Mirth]

Here's an OMGUSy

FOS

for all 3 of you.

Do you have a non-OMGUSy reason to FOS us? Because I'd like that better.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Alright. from towniest to scummiest:

Haschel Cedricson: That's me.

Jex: Her play has been very pro-town, and I haven't noticed anything
even remotely suspicious in her posts. I've also played with her a
lot, and everything I see is consistant with pro-town Jex. I'm aware
part of this is metagame stuff, but I'm confident placing her here.

Zindaras: I covered him in a pbpa, and I still believe that he is very town.

Mexal: No red flags in Mexal's posts. I like his playstyle, and the fact that he brought up Pug's sketchiness gets points from me. His rereads seem designed to spur discussion and actually analyze things, whereas I don't get the feeling of scum trying to look town from his posts.

Grek: Hasn't been playing optimally, but has been consistant with a
misguided townie. I understand why everyone else is suspicious, but I
don't agree.

Oman: No read yet. I disagree with several points he's made, but that's not necessarily scummy.

Riki: Riki has played okay, but not great. His predecessor was horrendous. I'm not too keen on his explanation for ben's play, but I can't really justify moving him down the list.

Adam the Amazing: Nothing too glaring, but I don't like how he starts
the WIFOM arguments when there's no reason to bring anything up.

Mirth: Mirth might be town; most of you think she is. I'm not quite
buying it, though. I think she's been TOO focused on Grek, and I was
surprised that she didn't acknowledge my vote on her at all; it gave
me feelings of ignoring-pressure-in-hopes-it-goes-away. If somebody
could explain why the rest of you are convinced she's town, I would
appreciate that.

Pug: Has almost been a non-factor in this game. Mexal made an
excellent point that Pug has tended to just parrot the arguments of
others.* Also, and admittedly this is a bit OMGUS, I don't like how
he implied that my pro-Grek stance is suspicious, since I feel I
logically explained everything I felt about Grek. I think Pug may be
trying to deflect the topic of the conversation.

DeliciousGoldfish: Again, the most OMGUSy player I've ever seen.
Until you try actually reading the arguments and contributing your
own, I have no problem applying pressure to you.

inHim: I still think he's the best choice as I didn't like his vote
or any of his subsequent explanations. I see he may have to be
replaced, but I feel confident enough that I may vote for his
replacement anyways.

Vote: inHimshallibe

[Oman]

I don't think InHim has done anything innately scummy

Being unhelpful is rather scummy (its not definative, but its certainly up there), in my book.

I was under the impression that an SK has to kill everynight

Its not a definate, some mods do some mods don't. I don't know Scope well enough to say.

Also, if we have an SK, the SK wouldn't in fact go for more protown players. The SK would probably rather go for mafia in this game, since they are night-killing and could put an SK in more danger than a day-lynch.

This is down to individual playstyles but when I play SK I work of the fact that vocal/analytical players are likely to out me early. However the scum tend to keep a scummy looking SK around due to the fact that they deflect attention.

When it's said all in the same breath, it just doesn't stand well with me.

What are you refering to?

AGAIN, did I point any fingers or vote? No. I simply pointed it out.

Right, cause only scum vote and point fingers. And only townies wouldn't do that. Don't make me WIFOM this.

Oman: I get worse and worse? You might want to delve into that since you saw it imperative that you vote for me.

Read my analysis. You didn't look too bad early, slightly lurky maybe, but then you just went to town on the whole not reading and accusing thing.

Do you have a non-OMGUSy reason to FOS us? Because I'd like that better.

Cue. Eff. Tee.

[Mexal]

Mod, can we get a vote count please?

[Mirth]

I don't think InHim has done anything innately scummy

Being unhelpful is rather scummy (its not definative, but its certainly up there), in my book.

I like to be safe rather than sorry with this one. See Newbie 382 for why.

Also, if we have an SK, the SK wouldn't in fact go for more protown players. The SK would probably rather go for mafia in this game, since they are night-killing and could put an SK in more danger than a day-lynch.

This is down to individual playstyles but when I play SK I work of the fact that vocal/analytical players are likely to out me early. However the scum tend to keep a scummy looking SK around due to the fact that they deflect attention.

But the mafia don't know if there definitiely don't know if there's an SK around (as there could exist other killing roles) and while acting partially scummy would deflect the mafia, it would get the town annoyed. Also, in addition to nightkilling, since mafia have the advantage of numbers on their side, they're also a lynch threat. I just think it's smarter for the SK to get a headstart on killing them off.


Speaking of bandwagons, I'm going to have to look at Nox's again, as, looking at probability, there had to be at least one, maybe two scum on that. I'll do rereads probably tomorrow night.

Also, Haschel, it seems to me that a lot of your impressions are based on playstyle without very much else backing it up and you admit some of your arguments as such upfront. I don't think this is particularly useful.