Mini 497 - Game Over

[Nekka-Lucifer]

Happy Birthday. Have a good time off and come back refreshed . Unless you loath for Mafia Scum of something

[joost]

First of all, there was 3 days of inactivity between dusterhan's last post and this one. And Nirp says in this quote that his vote for dusterhan was to get him to post content. I said that I disagree with his voting to get content. My vote on the otherhand is because I think dusterhan is scummy. I want more information from him, but I didn't vote for him just to get him to post, I just think he is scummy, plain and simple. That's why the "sudden change"

Let's review:

I voted Sephiroth cos everyone was voting and i was just going with the flow... or was i?

what's the latest vote count?

This was 3 days and several appeals to post later. Kabenon's response was:

I think that in the cases we are looking at, people are saying that dusterhan made a mistake, that he was exhibiting newbish tendencies. While his actions might appear scummy, appear is the key word. Sometimes newb actions can be mistaken for scummy actions. It's not an excuse for sloppy actions, but that is the difference people are hinting at.

He isn't acting so much scummy, he just isn't really helping the town too much.

Do you understand now, joost, or shall I elaborate a bit more?

(emphasis mine)

You don't think Duster is scummy, just a newb. In fact later you say that you find it scummy that Nirp votes for him based on that post.

i'm still here

Which is 4 days after his last post and suddenly you say:

My vote on the otherhand is because I think dusterhan is scummy.

I still don't see what changed your mind. It seems to me that Dusterhan posted twice in a row without comment after being asked repeatedly to explain himself. You may find this scummy behaviour or not, but I don't see the difference between the first time he did it and the second.

Also I find the following a bit strange:

I'm not saying we should lynch him, all I am saying is that his posting mere I'm here posts but avoiding writing anything of importance is scummy, and right now he is the scummiest person in my eyes. I haven't really seen too much in the realm of other scumminess. My vote on Nekka was random, and my vote serves a better purpose on duster.

I said that I disagree with his voting to get content. My vote on the otherhand is because I think dusterhan is scummy. I want more information from him, but I didn't vote for him just to get him to post, I just think he is scummy, plain and simple.

You think he's scummy but you don't want to lynch him? Then what exactly is the "better purpose" for your vote? It's not to make Dusterhan talk and it's not to lynch him. What other reason could you have?

P.S. I'm sorry to make such a long post of which most is other people's work...

[kabenon007]

Tell me joost, is there or is there not a difference between voting for someone because you want to post and voting for someone because you find them to be scummy. And the answer is certainly yes, those are two completely separate opinions. The reason I found it scummy the second time around is because it was just that, the second time. There is a saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me." I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt the first time around, but now, after he has posted twice without comment, I see that as scummy. Blame me for it if you will, but there it is. I can also see how his not posting would be a newbish mistake, as I said before, but the fact that he has posted twice makes me wonder. And no, I don't want him lynched right now. We don't want a quick lynch. I want scum lynched eventually, and without dusterhan to post to defend himself, a lynch of him would not do any good right now. I voted because I think his actions are scummy and that is where I believe my vote belongs.

[kabenon007]

EBWOP:
"a difference between voting for someone because you want them to post,"

Damn me and my speed typing

[Aimee]

Hi, I promised content, and here I am! Here's my thoughts on everyone so far.

-TinVision-:

Nothing outright until he says that dusterhan should "stop acting absurd for the sake of it," and it isn't a pro-town tactic. Can't really argue with that. I find this interesting:

Note that I have no reason to think that dusterhan is scum at this point. In fact, given my experience in Newbie #361, I've gotten a strong newb town vibe. All I am saying is that his behavior is not pro-town, and that he should rectify that.

I'm not sure why he's giving you a newbie town tell - can you explain this please?

However, 2 days later, you seem to change your opinion. Considering dusterhan's lurking as a scum-tell you vote for him. I could see this as scum bandwagoning, since this rather notable change of opinion led to a vote.

Who’s blaming you? “Failed to present my reasoning”? I did present my reasoning. IT'S BLATANT LURKING. You know the thing that you keep harping about in Atticus and ignoring totally in dusterhan?

There is a difference, however. Whilst Atticus has been "lurking in plain sight", and posting yet not scum hunting, there have been times where dusterhan has just not been around. His lurking could be seen far more differently, and as a result, in my eyes, less scummy.

Talking of Atticus, why are you completely ignoring him? It seems odd that you are accusing dusterhan of something, yet ignoring Atticus who is doing exactly the same thing.

Anyway, I'm far more interested in his belief that dusterhan was like a newb townie, and (although less) interested in what caused such a dramatic change of opinion.

Atticus:

At the beginning, he simply did not scum-hunt whatsoever. He was just posting, not really saying much, and then going away again. He's recently got a bit better, saying he is suspicious of Kabenon's vote on duster, as well as questioning Nirp a bit. Overall, I'm a bit unimpressed, and would like him to comment more on other things, and continue to scum-hunt.

destructor:

Seems active enough. Don't like his conclusion on dusterhan.

I read dusterhan's posts from the other game he's playing in and he was similarly confusing in it, seemingly without realising the negative effect it's having on the Town. I dunno, maybe he's scum in both games, but my first feeling is that he's pro-Town. I realise there's a heap of WIFOM junk going on here, so...

Same as TinVision.

Why

does this make you feel pro-town?

Also, I find destructor's attacks on TinVision a bit much. He seems to be going slightly over to attack at this stage. Maybe it's just me, but my gut is telling me perhaps destructor is trying too hard.

I feel like lynching dusterhan would be a waste. Either he's fairly harmless scum or bad pro-Town. With the possibilty of the latter in mind, I feel that it isn't the best idea to lynch him, at least not today.

If you think someone is scum, why keep them around? Just because he is useless as scum or town doesn't mean he is any less of a threat. If he is scum, he is part of the enemy and we should get rid of him. This is a bit of an odd argument really.

dusterhan:

We've already had this debate about him. Frankly, I'm finding those going after him more scummy than him, but at the same time, he needs to stop lurking and contribute.

To be honest, if he is doing this in other games, it's probably his playstyle, thus has no real indication of his alignment.

joost:

I agree with lots of what he has to say. However, I don't agree with his explanation that dusterhan is likely scum - I've explained above why I don't think his actions are any real tell about his alignment. I like his observation about Kabenon, and I'm seeing active scum-hunting from him.

Kabenon:

I'm not quite sure why he pressured dusterhan - it's been shown already that he doesn't seem to respond to pressure that much.

I do agree that dusterhan's unhelpful attitude is different to being scummy. Nonetheless, I am uneasy about his vote on dusterhan. Mainly because he said before he didn't find him scummy, and it had already been established he wasn't responding to pressure. Furthermore, I'm sensing it's slightly opportunistic.

Knuck:

Again, not much from him either, but I like the way he noticed TinVision's change of opinion, and he also seems to share my opinion of dusterhan (his actions are scummy, nor pro-town).

Nekka-Lucifer:

Wow, I can't believe I let this through. Nekka has done exactlythe same as Atticus - absolutely zero scum-hunting, and his only attempted scum hunting was to say that "dusterhan's lurking is scummy", which I don't agree with either. Definitely need to keep an eye out for him.

Nirp:

He's not really contributed much, other than about dusterhan. Overall, I think his vote was a bit premature, but not entirely scummy on its own. I'm getting a town read from him at the moment.

Sephiroth:

Aggressive, definitely. However, this is evidently a playstyle thing. Overall, I actually like his responses and his opinions, especially about dusterhan. I've found nothing scummy from him at the moment.

SilverPhoenix:

Really has been too quiet at this point. I don't really understand his TinVision FoS early on, and has since lurked and thus avoided the dusterhan issue basically to its entirety.

Overall, I'd say I'm most suspicious of TinVision, Atticus, Kabenon and Nekka-Lucifer. In fact, I'm going to

vote: Nekka Lucifer

as a pressure vote - I want to see content.

[kabenon007]

Happy Birthday, btw, Atticus

[destructor]

Why

does this make you feel pro-town?

If we're going to go by tells alone, dusterhan is scum and we should lynch him. I suppose I was being completely irrational. There was no real basis for this feeling. I dunno, wishful thinking? I probably shouldn't have said 'pro-town' at all, actually.

I'll see if I can decode my feelings about dusterhan now.

I get an impression that dusterhan isn't even meaning to lurk, but is not interested in this game enough to read the thread and come to any sort of consolidated opinion. His last post asking for a vote count came across to me like a feelble attempt to appear interested so as not to get replaced or something along those lines.

Due to the scarcity of his posts, there is very little to go by to meaningfully discern his alignment, which is EXACTLY why I don't think he's worth our attention right now. He's been prodded, and has not replied with more content. I'm not holding my breath on seeing a dramatic shift in his contributions to this game any time soon, regardless of how many votes, questions or prods he is given.

If you think someone is scum, why keep them around? Just because he is useless as scum or town doesn't mean he is any less of a threat. If he is scum, he is part of the enemy and we should get rid of him. This is a bit of an odd argument really.

I think he IS less of a threat if he's 'useless'. Unless, of course, if his actions do cause serious confusion, which perhaps they did early on. Scum who are so far undetected, who may have slipped up at some point today, they are greater threats.

Anyway, you missed my main point regarding dusterhan. It wasn't that we should not get rid of him, even if he is scum, but that according to what we'd seen so far, he wasn't a good lynch for today and that

we should be focusing on other players, most of whom have posted more to analyse

. I still think this is true.

If I may quote myself...

He's a distraction from more of the solid content we've seen today, and I wonder about the people that would rather discuss his behaviour (or lack thereof).

Also, I find destructor's attacks on TinVision a bit much. He seems to be going slightly over to attack at this stage. Maybe it's just me, but my gut is telling me perhaps destructor is trying too hard.

I'm still not convinced about his behaviour. Unless I've overlooked something, I don't believe he's addressed my comments about what I saw as contradictions on his part.

Also, that 'edited it out' argument is far too convenient.

So far, I've found TinVision to be scummy throughout this game. Not blatantly anti-Town but definitely scummy, for the reasons I've previously stated. For now I'm content to leave my vote on him.

Sephiroth:

Aggressive, definitely. However, this is evidently a playstyle thing. Overall, I actually like his responses and his opinions, especially about dusterhan. I've found nothing scummy from him at the moment.

This appears to be a contrast to your earlier attitude on Sephiroth, which, from what I can tell, was based on your opinion you stated earlier in this post. You said you find 'those going after [dusterhan] scummy', yet found nothing scummy from Sephiroth?

I understand that your initial FOS on him seemed to be resolved around post 96, but I become curious about you making no reference to this here.

[dusterhan]

hey mod, can we please have a regular vote count?

[Aimee]

hey mod, can we please have a regular vote count?

Keep up the good work. That scum-hunting that you're doing is amazing.

[joost]

Tell me joost, is there or is there not a difference between voting for someone because you want to post and voting for someone because you find them to be scummy. And the answer is certainly yes, those are two completely separate opinions. The reason I found it scummy the second time around is because it was just that, the second time. There is a saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me." I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt the first time around, but now, after he has posted twice without comment, I see that as scummy.
[...]
And no, I don't want him lynched right now. We don't want a quick lynch. I want scum lynched eventually, and without dusterhan to post to defend himself, a lynch of him would not do any good right now. I voted because I think his actions are scummy and that is where I believe my vote belongs.

Yes I agree with you that voting for pressure or voting because you think someone is scum are two different things. What I do not agree on is that you put your vote on someone but don't want to get him lynched. If you don't want a quick lynch then why did you make up your mind so quickly? I personally don't think lynching duster is a bad idea. He's not helpful for the game(aside from generating discussion) and definitely not helping the town. He might be harmless scum but he isn't harmless town.

hey mod, can we please have a regular vote count?

Fool me trice...? I really don't like the emoticon. It makes it seem like he's just here to annoy us.

btw Mod, please

prod SilverPhoenix

[kabenon007]

My vote on dusterhan is a statement, in a way. I don't really know how to put it. I think he is scummy for the reasons I have already stated, but I could see how he could still be extremely newb town. That's a very slim possibility in my mind, but it's still there. And we want to avoid any lynching of town if we can help it. But I think it has become apparent that dusterhan is not going to say anything at all, even if he is -1. I don't understand how a townie could want to stay in the shadows and pester us with "vote counts, please!" But who knows. I like my vote where it is, but should the vote count on dusterhan go up suddenly, I would probably remove mine to allow dusterhan to have another shot at posting.

[SilverPhoenix]

I am here.
Sorry for not posting much but TBH it seems like the entire dusterhan thing is a rambling arguement that isn't based on much, but I might not be paying enough attention. I'll post some content soon.

[Knuck]

My vote on dusterhan is a statement, in a way. I don't really know how to put it. I think he is scummy for the reasons I have already stated, but I could see how he could still be extremely newb town. That's a very slim possibility in my mind, but it's still there. And we want to avoid any lynching of town if we can help it. But I think it has become apparent that dusterhan is not going to say anything at all, even if he is -1. I don't understand how a townie could want to stay in the shadows and pester us with "vote counts, please!" But who knows. I like my vote where it is, but should the vote count on dusterhan go up suddenly, I would probably remove mine to allow dusterhan to have another shot at posting.

We have established that voting for Dusterhan isn't going to make him post content suddenly. Anyone can see this. And do you honestly think his posting one liners with no contribution and general confusion with no defense is a scum move? He has shown that he is just bored, in all of his games he does the same thing. The probability that he is scum in all of his games is quite slim, or so it would seem to me. And you say you don't understand how a townie would pester us with votes? Why would a scum pester us with votes, he would be just be putting more suspicion on himself. You keeping your vote on him makes no sense since we know he isn't going to defend himself, and 8 pages in I would say we can at least wait until someone makes some more than bored one liner scummy moves.


I do not like this play at all and it shows scum to me trying to pick off a helpless townie.

Vote Kabenon007

[kabenon007]

[quote"Knuck"]We have established that voting for Dusterhan isn't going to make him post content suddenly.[/quote]

And I have established, (many times, I might add,) that I am not voting for him to pressure him into posting! I think he is scum! Goodness, I'm repeating myself over and over!

You keeping your vote on him makes no sense since we know he isn't going to defend himself, and 8 pages in I would say we can at least wait until someone makes some more than bored one liner scummy moves.

I am hoping that he will either post or be replaced. And when he is replaced, his replacement will most likely not play in the same way that dusterhan has been. And so, with my vote still on this replacement, it shows that I thought the player he was replacing was scummy, and so hopefully he will say something. That is why I don't want to see dusterhan lynched yet, cuz it won't give us information. But my vote on him let's you all know where I stand.

[Aimee]

If you think someone is scum, why keep them around? Just because he is useless as scum or town doesn't mean he is any less of a threat. If he is scum, he is part of the enemy and we should get rid of him. This is a bit of an odd argument really.

I think he IS less of a threat if he's 'useless'. Unless, of course, if his actions do cause serious confusion, which perhaps they did early on. Scum who are so far undetected, who may have slipped up at some point today, they are greater threats.

Fair enough, but you have to understand that some players have intentionally useless playstyles (for example Fritzler and Lowell), yet they are strong players. Judging by what others have said, he plays like this in other games - and he is causing confusion, as the large number of posts solely about him demonstrate.

Anyway, you missed my main point regarding dusterhan. It wasn't that we should not get rid of him, even if he is scum, but that according to what we'd seen so far, he wasn't a good lynch for today and that

we should be focusing on other players, most of whom have posted more to analyse

. I still think this is true.

Yes I agree with this completely. I'd also like to focus more on those not scum-hunting, mainly Nekka-Lucifer.

You said you find 'those going after [dusterhan] scummy', yet found nothing scummy from Sephiroth?

If you check Sephiroth's posts, he does actually say that he doesn't find dusterhan suspicious. I'm therefore not sure about your point here.

Overall, my earlier opinion on Sephiroth was based on a rather misleading post, and a different playstyle that I hadn't encountered (from him, anyway), which is why I was more suspicious earlier than I am now.

[joost]

[Dusterhan] has shown that he is just bored, in all of his games he does the same thing. The probability that he is scum in all of his games is quite slim, or so it would seem to me.

I checked Dusterhan's posts, "all of his games" are exactly two games. And in Mini 492 he's actually posting more and with a bit more content than in this game. It's quite possible he's scum or at least anti-town in both games. Granted, confusion seems to be his playing style, but if he is scum and we don't lynch him because he's playing poorly it's actually working. I will remember this post, if Duster turns out to be scum you will rise on my suspect list for defending him without a proper fact-check.

Anyway, you missed my main point regarding dusterhan. It wasn't that we should not get rid of him, even if he is scum, but that according to what we'd seen so far, he wasn't a good lynch for today and that

we should be focusing on other players, most of whom have posted more to analyse

. I still think this is true.

Yes I agree with this completely. I'd also like to focus more on those not scum-hunting, mainly Nekka-Lucifer.

I agree with Aimee on this. I reread Nekka's posts so far and they are only marginally better than Dusterhan's. He doesn't post often and when he does he doesn't add much content. I guess we (me at least) overlooked this. And since it's clear that I won't get enough support to get Duster lynched I'm changing my vote to put pressure on Nekka.

Unvote, Vote: Nekka-Lucifer

Btw, Destructor, you said we should focus on other people. You're vote is on Tinvision, do you still think he's the most suspicious? I'd like other people who think Dusterhan is not a topic worth discussion to come up with other suspects or at least some examples of scummy behaviour.

[-TinVision-]

@Aimee: Like I said (and provided the link), recently in Newbie #361, a newbie player by the name of Dr. Blackstrike made a few posts early in the day that were similar to dusterhan's in silliness and caused a lot of confusion. He was eventually lynched, and proved to be town. Thus, even though it's a small sample size, I read dusterhan's early posts as a newb town tell.

My change of opinion was caused by my seeing dusterhan's "vote count request" post, as before that point I just assumed he was away from the boards for a couple days. I got frustrated and stuck a vote on him for purposeful lurking (which I'll admit I don't normally sanction voting on this alone). I now feel that dusterhan is just a troll, and should be replaced, not lynched. I'm pretty sure he's been here the whole time, just not posting.

I will

Unvote

though, as I don't want him lynched and my original vote was mostly based on frustration.

Regarding Atticus, I find him less scummy/annoying because while there's not much content, he is at least here, reading the thread and responding to posts made that address him. I haven't really had much time to think about anyone else what with dusterhan's inanity.


@Cavane: Can we get a replacement for dusterhan? He refuses to actually participate in the game, and it's pretty leeching away my enjoyment of the game (which from all evidence, i.e. his actions and his sig, may be his intention).

[Nekka-Lucifer]

Mod: Asking for replacement due to Life issues. I really shouldn't start so many games. I can't keep up

I broadcasted this to show everyone in my own words why I'm leaving.

[joost]

Hmmm.... Well then I guess I'll have to

unvote

[Atticus]

Dusterhan: I want you to start posting.

Who are you suspicious of?
What posts strike you as odd?
Why are you being a

n

idiot

lurker?
Is there some real life complication that you have that stops you from having an opinion?

Why did joost hop on an N-L vote? The reasoning Aimee gave for voting the latter was weak, in my opinion, simply that he was barely posting any content. However, that joost went to it, and backed off right after N-L asked for a replacement is odd, to me.

[Nirp]

Sorry for my lack of posts, I have been rather busy with college over the last couple of days. More content will follow tomorrow.

[Sephiroth]

Dusterhan: I want you to start posting.

Who are you suspicious of?
What posts strike you as odd?
Why are you being a

n

idiot

lurker?
Is there some real life complication that you have that stops you from having an opinion?

QFT, though I doubt it has a chance of coming true. It has been well established by duster's latest post that he does NOT plan to post content. Obviously, this shows us that his alignment will likely never be discovered, unless NKed (unlikely since he as a townie is a bad townie, he as scum would not NK self) or lynched. This makes him a VERY dangerous player in the late game, a big fat question mark.

Now, looking at this from a normal standpoint, I would not lynch him. More often then not, he will be town, based on the statistics of the game of mafia, and there is only a small chance that he is scum in this game (all suspicions aside). Therefore, lynching him would be a bad move.

If you look at it from a meta standpoint, will always lynching players with this playstyle prevent the anti town and unhelpful playstyle? This raises a better question, is that fair, or should a player be able to play however they want? I dunno. It's a discussion for another day. My point is, we're all dwelling on Duster way too much. After this post, I plan to ignore him unless he makes a blatantly scummy post. I need to reread at this point.

[dusterhan]

Why are you all picking on me?

Anyway, i'm quite suspicous of joost cos he is picking on me more than the others. So.

Unvote

Vote: joost

[dusterhan]

And i'm being a lurker becuase i want to be

[destructor]

And i'm being a lurker becuase i want to be

Thanks for saying 'something' dusterhan, but do you realise that lurking isn't a good thing for a pro-Town player to do? And it also doesn't help YOU because it makes you look very suspicious, which might answer your question about why people are 'picking on you'.

Maybe expecting a reply is hopeful, but anyway, dusterhan, I don't think your reason for voting joost is very good. Do you have anything more substantial against joost?

Also, to echo Atticus' question, can you point to more players and, specifically, their posts that you find suspicious?