Blitz 13 - Bad Omens (Judgment)

[LucianRoy]

VOTE: Anxiety

What's with the salt for Ocean?

Oh wait...

[LucianRoy]

Usted, how come you picked a Blitz for your first game?

Yeah, Usted, why did you choose a formal tense in spanish as your username too?
We might as well get down to the fundamentals here.

[LucianRoy]

ITT pisskop has no chill.

-1

[LucianRoy]

Defending your scumbud lucian?

Yakko, plz

-1

[LucianRoy]

SW I'm expecting more from you, you're being rather underwhelming so far.

Wisdom, why does this sound like a reason for you to keep your RVS vote on Anxiety?

[LucianRoy]

Have you played with SW? Its a fairly valid meta concern

Never. Does she usually come out of the gate stronger than this?

[LucianRoy]

pedit: Where do you think my vote should be?

more pedit: pedit is @Lucian

I'm not sure, but I don't think it should be on Anxiety.

UNVOTE: Anxiety

And your socratic rhetoric is exceptional btw.

[LucianRoy]

Thats L1 fyi

What's L-1?

[LucianRoy]

I'm not sure, but I don't think it should be on Anxiety.

How so?

Just gut for now; I also want to hear from the other head before solidly reading them.

[LucianRoy]

Ocean, I'm not a fan of meta, but if MattP really wanted to have reads on those players, he could've whipped something up easily. Instead, he chose to play the "let's wait and see" game before jumping the gun on them. I'm doubting his caution is as bullshit as you say it is.

VOTE: Ocean

[LucianRoy]

This game is giving me Anxiety.

I don't get it Matt, what's your justification on the vote?

[LucianRoy]

This game is giving me Anxiety.

I don't get it Matt, what's your justification on the vote?

I don't like this super rational protown way you're trying to present yourself both in your dissuading Ocean to pursue me and in you trying to get Wisdom to unvote Anxiety on page 2 of the game

Matt, coming from anyone else, I would've called this logic Bs, but I can see that you're a sensible guy, and sensible guys don't vote on account of whim. Especially on players that they're calling protown. Though this is far from the reason I was expecting, I'm actually reading you town for it. But what exactly about my defense/dissuasion/ whatever you want to call it do you find scummy?

I want to see more interaction between Ocean and Matt. I originally thought the meta jab from Ocean was SvT, but now I'm not so sure.

SW burst in here firing questions at Ocean's logic, and I have to say, they've managed to ignore me quite nicely. That makes me kind of sad on the inside, but remember when I asked where the salt for voting Ocean was coming from? I don't need an explanation now.

Ocean, I'll be frank in saying that pre-associative flips, even when a player has still yet to confirm, are pretty bad. I speak from experience.

Adding to that is the fact that I do find Lucian scummy. The way he's defending Matt in Post 69 doesn't come across as genuine. Firstly, he didn't even wait for Matt to respond before diving in, and secondly, even if he disagreed with my opinion, that isn't indicative of my alignment.

I didn't need to wait for Matt to respond to find a junky meta analysis scummy. It looked a lot like you were trying to get something out of Matt, (or possibly even posturing a vote over him), and that's what I found scummy. You said you even agreed with me disagreeing with you. That made me do a double take, and left me wondering if you even took yourself seriously.

[LucianRoy]

I could see switching to Lucian for the interactions that he had with Lucian

I know, my interactions with Lucian were pretty telling weren't they?
Shut up Lucian, that's only something scum would say.

@LucianRoy -

How do you distinguish between town asking questions to figure out a player's alignment and scum asking questions to "posture for a vote?" If I was trying to "get something out of Matt," that fits with town motivation, doesn't it?

Well, usually I'd be judging whether or not there's malicious intent behind the post. At the time, it looked to me like you had whipped something together to try and make a push on Matt. I didn't like it, so I voted it.

Re-reading my Post 70, I think I was unclear. I didn't say that I agreed with your vote on me. I said that I disagreed with everything you've done including your vote on me. "until this time" meant, "until the present time," not "until your vote."

I'm still uncertain of what you just said. Layman's terms, please.

Like you playing the role of a grounded mediator when you have no knowledge of my intentions or alignment, or Anxiety's intentions or alignment, when we had both posted so little at the point you defended us, looks scummy precisely because it makes you look like some sort of voice of reason in a place where we shouldn't be at the point where your voice of reasoning is legitimized. Two pages into the game you shouldn't be telling a player that their vote needs to go somewhere else, and certainly not multiple times within those first few pages.

I was merely trying to convey to wisdom that I had towny vibes off Anxiety, and I largely voted Ocean because I had towny vibes off you. I just acted on them in attempts to see where they would take me. Obviously no where good...

[LucianRoy]

Lucian do you have a read list that you could make like i did?

I'm afraid I need to collect my thoughts a bit more.
I was slightly scumreading ocean, but they're more neutral for me now. I want to talk to him a bit more before I remove my vote.
I think I read MattP and you as town, though.
I'm not a huge fan of Yakko's posts so far, but enh...

It's a little too early for me to have a full-fledged readslist.

pedit: Understandable Matt, I should really be doing the same.

[LucianRoy]

Ocean, where do you stand on Yakko?

[LucianRoy]

ika, why the vote on the inactive?

Also, give me time for my scumreads. I think I was wrong about Ocean being scum. I need to get better bearings in this game asap.

[LucianRoy]

I read it, but I don't get how someone who hasn't posted in the game yet can be anything but null.

I wasn't aware I was being timed to make reads. I wanted to talk to more people before I post anything akin to a strong readslist.

[LucianRoy]

I mean, I'd much rather you guys did a little explaining for at least half of those reads. It'll help to see where you're coming from.

[LucianRoy]

Usted, I was making a joke.

[LucianRoy]

I think so. I originally thought his interaction with Matt was SvT, but right around where he explains himself wayyy more in posts 96/102 made me doubt that notion entirely. Then after his question at me, I had time to think about it and decided that I'm probably just completely wrong. That thought is made clearer now that Matt and Ocean pretty much have a mutual town read on eachother

[LucianRoy]

Alright, Ranger's entrance into the game struck me as outlandish. I really don't put too much stock into voting someone based off their RVS vote when there's already seven pages down. I'll cut her some slack for being late to the game, but... why enter a pretty advanced game and go solely off RVS; creating a convicted list of reads off what seems to be only RVS? SW's "you have got to be kidding" basically sums up my thoughts on that note. At first glance they might sound like nervous scum entering the game oddly, but the I read Matt's post:

I always have a sinking feeling when I realize someone in situations like these might not be scum and actually legitimately believes they can develop reads of every player in the game based on the first 20 RVS posts of the game

I would still like to hear more from Ranger. Specifically her thoughts on Yakko when she gets back to the game. I can't sort her atm.

Ocean going after Yakko was a bit unexpected. I had asked Ocean what his thoughts on Yakko were maybe a page or two before, but I never got a response.
He voted him for what mainly appears to be defaulting on his stance about Anxiety's past town read on pisskop. I think what might've caused this is the lack of Yakko being transparent in his thoughts on the game, which complicated things for people later on. Really, I don't want to be voting Ocean Wind any more. Their jabs seem way more town than they did last night. UNVOTE: Ocean

Wisdom enters the game and then ensues the Yakko tunnel. Oh god.
To be fair, Wisdom is very blunt with his questions. He doesn't dance around any topic, but drives straight to the point. I like this, but you could already tell from Yakko's first couple responses it was going to be gruesome, (as he seemed to lack a direct response about his read on me).
One moment,

Cool so ranger is scum claiming.

? Your push on ranger you later say was mainly driven by 201 on account of false premises, but I don't see it. He may not be new to the game, but he's new to mafiascum. Everytime someone joins mafiascum, and they want to play a game, sooner or later they learn the site meta and/or adapt to it. It's actually a sad reality. Also, I only played with Wisdom once when he was scum, I can't remember anything about that game because I played really poorly, but what do you see in Wisdom that's alluring to his scum meta/not town meta? You put up a bunch of meta with scum you caught, but none of those games have wisdom in them. That just drew my attention when SW went into interrogation mode after saying, "This isn't Wisdom's town game."
Back to Yakko,
I really don't like this exchange of posts:

He comes off townier than you ika hmmm idk. I think I would hate myself for being so wrong and either I would play better or retrench and start questioning my existence. Wisdom makes some clever points.

What points has he made? Are you saying we are having a TvT or something else cus thats what im reading what your saying it as

If it came down to the wire between you and he. I would lynch you. Am I readingnyou both as town rn? Technically yes. The points he made are mostly his responses to you. I found myself to have been nodding to them.

Yakko seems to be going a bit minimalist here. I read his post about him wanting people to read his thoughts, but really if wen played mafia that way, we might as well be telepathic. This comes off as scummy to me on Yakko's part only because he never really properly explains himself, let alone why he found Wisdom to be more townie than Ika/SW. Really, his read at that moment looks like it's complete gut, or it's made up.

who else do you not have a read on if any? and if so why

lets see I think oceans vote is bad. Not because he is voting me but because he wants townies tonmake their own argument for why I am scum. So null scum

Pisskop and usted as town
Mattp
Wisdom, anxiety attack
Ranger
Lucian

I get that you explained your read on me, but why is Usted up there as town? You haven't explained maybe half of these, or at least, I don't see your reasoning.
I'll continue reviewing Yakko's tunnel at a later time, as I have some work I need to get done tonight.

As an aside:

Scum is definitely going to play carefully around the chosen mechanic. They don't want to be viewed as the person who led a chosen train probably.

Usted, are you familiar with the term: WIFOM? It's used to describe a logical fallacy about predicting what scum will and won't do.
If you aren't familiar with it, that's fine, you can read a bit more about it here: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WIFOM I'm sorry I ICed in that moment, but some of your posts sound like you make some assumptions to reach a conclusion. I thought you might just like to know.
Back to the game, who are you scumreading atm Usted?

[LucianRoy]

How many games do you need completed before that stops being true? I have eleven completed games on here. That's more than you have. (Going by the definition of "completely finished".) In addition to my five years of mafia-playing experience elsewhere, I'd say that makes me no longer new.

Oh, sorry if that wasn't clear, but post 201 was referencing ika's stance on what you said about Usted. I was talking about Usted and not you. My bad.

Why do you call Yakko out for this and not me? I'm more guilty of being a minimalist than Yakko is.

With your thoughts, you're definitely not minimalist. You clearly outlined everything you picked up from your analysis of RVS earlier, but Yakko seems to be avoiding detailing his posts outright, and I really don't see his train of thought because of it. If I were to vote Yakko, it would mainly be for this reason, but I still haven't finished my close read of his tunnel, so I can't say for certain atm.

[LucianRoy]

Ranger- I'm having a bit of trouble reading her atm despite many people reading her town. I don't think I agree with her stance on Yakko right now, but I'll come back to that.
Wisdom- I think you might be town, but it's really tough to say. You're just a tricky person to read. Your vote on Yakko is decent, I suppose...
Ocean- I'm reading them as town, as stated earlier.
pisskop- His presence makes me believe he's town, but I could be wrong. He seemed to get very at ease as this game progressed, and I originally thought he "had no chill." Notice the "slip" if that's what you want to call it; it kind of looks like something a townsperson might do at this stage in the game if they were playing nonchalantly.
MattP- The "P" is for pretty-much-town. I like his vote on Yakko the most.
Usted- I might be having trouble reading him, but not a lot of what he's said so far has really made me pause to consider a town-read for him. I'm kind of wondering why his vote is still on Kop though. Maybe null-scum, but really just null.
Anxiety Attack- I have mixed feelings about, I remember Matt saying he recently read them town because they sounded annoyed when inquired about their actions, as if they were really trying to hunt scum uninterrupted. I'm not sure if this garners a town read though. Your exchange of posts with them earlier made it sound like they just had aggravation. I'm questioning their read on you though, so I want to see where that goes. Maybe nullish to scum atm.
Yakko- I want to review more of his posts before I'm certain, but I'm a bit busy rn. I'm leaning scum on him though.

[LucianRoy]

Not really sold on Yakko scum. His response to pressure yesterday rang townish to me.

Not a big fan of Lucian's reads. It was like pulling teeth to get him to clarify his stance on Ocean, he is saying Yakko is scum but putting off giving his reasons, is trying to discredit MattP's townread on us, and just seems way too fence sitty considering the amount of information available in this game so far.

VOTE: LucianRoy

~SW

Silver, but what about Yakko's response strikes you as town?
I was going to look at more the questions people were firing at Yakko yesterday + his responses, but I got wrapped up in other things.
Yes, I did discredit his town read on you, only because I disagreed with it. I'm not sure if it was more of a Meta-tell for Matt, but I didn't see it as a great reason to town read you. A reason, yes, but not a great one.

[LucianRoy]

Sorry about dying early, Wisdom. I suck most in early game as scum. I should've done more to make people town read you while there was time, but then again...
Good-game, everyone, and thanks for moderating Ether!

[LucianRoy]

Good advice SW, I'll take note of it for my next scum-game.