The War to End All Freaktowns: GAME OVER

[tautology]

I don't really like the looks of the Fritzler - Ibby collusion. I don't really feel like we got a good explanation there. It seems random at best, but very scummy otherwise. Can someone explain why giving an item to someone night one isn't suspicious?

[Kinetic]

Because its ibby and its expected.

[Fritzler]

I don't really like the looks of the Fritzler - Ibby collusion. I don't really feel like we got a good explanation there. It seems random at best, but very scummy otherwise. Can someone explain why giving an item to someone night one isn't suspicious?

you know, cuz we're friends and hang out on the weekends and stuff?

[ibaesha]

tautology: Please read this post. It contains the answer to your question. Then answer a couple questions for me.

Do you think it is suspicious for a player to keep track of where their items go by giving them to someone specific?

Do you think it is optimal pro-town play to just drop items for anyone (town or scum) to pick up?

And I'd also like you to explain what you see as scummy or random in the explanation I've linked you to, please.

Oh, and I forgot. While I'm on the topic of you. You claimed to have no items. Did you drop or give away any items?

[tautology]

Good response. I'll answer your questions and ask some more of my own.

Do you think it is suspicious for a player to keep track of where their items go by giving them to someone specific?

I think it's suspicious precisely because there's no way for you to keep track of it once it leaves your hands. It's not as if you will have a reliable way to know the effects of your decision.

Do you think it is optimal pro-town play to just drop items for anyone (town or scum) to pick up?

The answer depends on the game balance of the item goals, but assuming item goals help scum and town equally once one is satisfied, I do think it's better to drop items.

Dropped items are more likely to be picked up by the person who needs it. Since there are (hopefully) more town players than scum players, more items will be in the hands of the townies who need them than the scum.

And I'd also like you to explain what you see as scummy or random in the explanation I've linked you to, please.

Doing something that helps out a friend in a Mafia game without knowing if their scum or town is what I was referring to as random. Your justification seems reasonable, but I don't think it's a particularly sound strategy, so it could be fake.

Giving items night one is a smart move for scum, but a random move for town, in my opinion.

Oh, and I forgot. While I'm on the topic of you. You claimed to have no items. Did you drop or give away any items?

I dropped one item.

Now, for my questions:

You said you didn't forsee an item claim, how would it have changed your action if you did see it coming?

How do you think Fritzler would have been able to incriminate or exonerate himself with the item? What signs would you look for?

What do you think of my statement that giving an item at night helps scum more than town?

[ibaesha]

I'm not sure foreseeing an item claim would've changed my action at all, but I may have been more open to dropping an item than I was. The point of my action was to know where my item went, not to allow it to drop into random hands.

As for how Fritz handled the item. I wanted to see how Fritz would handle being given the item in a claiming situation, which we've seen. Also, I wanted to see if he would drop it or give it to someone. Since I didn't consider a mass item claim, if I saw someone else later claim having that item and had never seen it dropped, I would be able to draw a line back to Fritz and see who Fritz interacted with and so on. It was not all about Fritz exonerating or incriminating himself. Obviously you disagree with this since you said:

I think it's suspicious precisely because there's no way for you to keep track of it once it leaves your hands. It's not as if you will have a reliable way to know the effects of your decision.

And you think that dropping items gives you a reliable way to know the effects of your decision? At least I know without a doubt the first destination of my item. Without a mass claim, you would know -nothing-. Did you think we'd have a mass item claim day 1 when you dropped your item?

The only way giving items away at night is more beneficial to scum than town is that they can discuss what items each other need openly amongst themselves. They also have that benefit with dropped items, though. How they attempt to obtain items is the crux of the question I think you're asking, you can correct me if you like.

If a pro-town player gives an item to scum and they know their buddy needs it, they can pass it along. This is your concern, right? However, think of this: If someone drops an item, scum can just pick it up, for themselves or their buddy and pass it along. I'm sure there are ways scum can come up with to cover their tracks when it comes to dropped items. And, I believe it would be more difficult to cover their tracks if outright handed an item from someone pro-town.

Just an addition to the problem with dropped items:
What is to stop scum from picking up multiple items even if they can't use them, just to ensure the town doesn't gain powers? I've already seen one person pick up multiple items. What is to stop scum from picking up the same item that someone else (who is town) needs, if they need it as well. For example, Survivor seems to be needed by 3 people. (The question of whether or not all 3 could possibly be town can be left for another discussion)

I personally think that it is safer to give items to people you know you're giving them to than to drop them for random people to pick up. I will most likely continue to give people items released from my store than I cannot use rather than drop them. I want

some

control over who my items go to.

This does lead to the question of whether or not people should claim item goals. Without dropping items, the town would have a more difficult time getting the items they need without claiming. This is something I'll have to consider.

As for benefitting a friend without knowing their alignment: Night 0 many target-based decisions are made because so and so is someone's friends. It's not new and not really all that random. And my giving Fritz an item last night probably isn't too surprising to anyone who knows/has played with the both of us. I can see you having an issue with it since you haven't, but there it is. I'd like to add that I don't think Fritz benefitted since the item I gave him apparently isn't on his list of needs.

[Carrotcake]

I forsee that this week will get busier than it already is. So I might as well speak now.

Keep in mind that i scanned 20+ pages in one sitting, so please be patient when I ask plenty of questions.


On the Item Claim->
I would have opposed this had I entered the game earlier. Kinetic said a few things on this before, but he was oddly just ignored.

CONS
-------
By clearly stating what items you have dropped and what you gained from your shop. The scum could connect the item you produce to the shop you run. The knowlege of who runs what is a huge deal. They could either just kill the person and loot their shops (if they do have a looting role). Or they could let the person live for a long time, eliminating the risk that they would kill some sort of power source. Having our inventories revealed at all times could increase the possibility of theft (an ability that stinks of scum). And if im not wrong - the previous freaktowns had roles that only trigger upon finding specific people. Knowing who owns what shop could aid in finding that character.


PROS
--------
- Some items might make obvious nightkill weapons and the person holding them last could be questioned in the case of unnatural deaths.

- It prevents free trade, and forces people to limit themselves to one story. True, but im sure you know that some people could just pick items up and claim to be holding on to it to prevent scum. A claim that is easily a lie, unless of course we have a role that reveals item goals (unlikely).

- Sure, we limit them from trading freely(since they know what they want and are totally sure of their alignment). But it is likely(seeing the other freaktowns) that some people know each other already. This is acceptable. Some scum could easily use this excuse.

Too much lying and manipulation could be had, and we are just suppose to trust you when you say a trap is laid out?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Item claiming didnt seem that nice of an idea, but I got the impression that you had some sort of promise. A claim that after we claimed our items - that you would have a killer for us. The claim is almost over, I would like to see what you have up your sleeve.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

On the attack against Kscope ->
You and BM claim to say the Kscope slipped up, and that he was surely scum. You smack him around without giving us a reason, and the town just obeyed (!!!). Posts later, you seem to have changed your mind (after you 2 claimed so viciously that he was evil).

Now, the whole thing has died off... but I still dont know what you found so suspicous of Kscope. Could you please tell me? Could you please explain why you backed down?

------------------------------------------------------------------
You will have the answers after the claim? If so then I am waiting.


I found someone suspicous though - IH

The only thing we have to worry about are people like Fritz who need an item, and could possibly have another win condition

You make it sound like you dont have a item list to be collected. You are trying to get some heat on Fritz, or are you trying to look weak by claiming you have nothing?

He did say that he has item goals; he just didn't notice them. BM said the same thing. Although, I'm not sure how they missed it in their PMs.

Oops, I guess it was a misunderstanding. Its a bit convenient.

so

Unvote;Vote: IH

-------------------------------------
and another extra thing

Unvote Vote: Kilroy

You come with this know, when we're almost all done with the claims. Seriously...

So what? He deserved a vote for that!?

Just stating again that.... since my predecessor already claimed. Im claiming again.

Holding: Nothing
Dropped: messenger - still unaccounted for!
Gave: Nothing
Recieved: Nothing
[/quote]

[Mariyta]

Mari? What'd Mari do?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm assuming the "you and BM" in Carrotcake's post was referring to myself and BM, but it'd be nice if we got clarification.

Well I'm here (have been the whole time...), I think the main targets right now consist of IH, Mari, and KD. Seems to me it might be best to string someone up and maybe get some claims. To me it seems like though, no matter what is claimed we may not know if its a town or a scum role >>.

This post is really off. IH is not that much of a target. He has two votes, for fuck's sake. Just because you're voting him does not make him a main target. Hell, you and Battle Mage have two votes, so that'd make you two main targets as well. Why did the list have to stop at IH? And while we're on the subject of the list, K-sc0pe should definitely not be lynched today. As far as I can tell all 4 people voting him don't have a reason to do it. They voted on suspicion I created, and that suspicion is no longer valid at all. K-sc0pe is definitely not someone we should consider for lynch today.

Vote: Kinetic

There, now you're a main target for today. Seems a lot better than the "main targets" you suggested.

[Mariyta]

I kinda like that vote, MoS. He also refused to give much info for the claim. As far as we know, he could have been the scum last night that the paper was referring to... or one of them at least. I'm going to have to do a reread (or re-skim, anyway), but that may be where my vote is headed.

[JDodge]

How can we know that whatever was in the paper can be thought of as entirely true?

[IH]

Well I'm here (have been the whole time...), I think the main targets right now consist of IH, Mari, and KD. Seems to me it might be best to string someone up and maybe get some claims. To me it seems like though, no matter what is claimed we may not know if its a town or a scum role >>.

.......

fos:kinetic

By clearly stating what items you have dropped and what you gained from your shop. The scum could connect the item you produce to the shop you run. The knowlege of who runs what is a huge deal. They could either just kill the person and loot their shops (if they do have a looting role). Or they could let the person live for a long time, eliminating the risk that they would kill some sort of power source. Having our inventories revealed at all times could increase the possibility of theft (an ability that stinks of scum). And if im not wrong - the previous freaktowns had roles that only trigger upon finding specific people. Knowing who owns what shop could aid in finding that character.

A looting role? I don't think I would have ever noticed that, since today all of the items of a dead player was just added to the pile.

How would you know about a looting role then?

I also like how you skip a subsequent post where I noticed I had one, and listed three of the items I needed.

FoS:Carrot

I kinda like that vote, MoS. He also refused to give much info for the claim. As far as we know, he could have been the scum last night that the paper was referring to... or one of them at least. I'm going to have to do a reread (or re-skim, anyway), but that may be where my vote is headed.

Who is this referring to? Do you like MoS's vote or Kinetic's vote.

I could probably get behind a few lynches, such as Kinetic, Carrot, Taut, and some others. We probably wasted to much time discussing claims instead of actually getting useful alignment content. = \

[MissMoo]

How can we know that whatever was in the paper can be thought of as entirely true?

emphasis below, mine

4 .I will release the 3 newspapers that is published in Freaktown,

The Freaktown Sun-Times (Headline News that is supposed to be very reliable)

, The Freaktown Enquirer (Tabloid News which is usually just for comical relief and gossip), and The Mafia Courier-Journal (Created by Mafia spin doctors to encourage the dark side with cryptic messages to confuse everyone).

The Freaktown Sun-Times
Mafia seen in nearby stores giving each other objects.

The Freaktown Enquirer
Mafia can eat twice as much as normal citizens.

Mafia Courier-Journal
Mafia’s control includes half the town.

We know ibaesha "gave" an item, but the newspaper implies that there was more than one. Did anyone keep a list of items that were on the ground at D1 start so we can compare that to the claims? I'm thinking anyone with more than one item which was not on the ground and avaliable for the taking, might fall into this category. So far ibaesha, Fritz, and K-Scope fall into this category. I'm just not sure ibaesha would have been so open about giving the DVD to to Fritz if the newspaper had been talking about her...that's a pretty bold move. Also in her post about the claims, she's asking "Who else gave an item?" so I think it unlikely (yet still probable) she's one of the scum from the newspaper.

At the risk of opening up this can of worms again, I'm going to say that K-Scope got the gummy bears to make his bear bear somewhere and maybe he's one of those being talked about in the newspaper.

FOS: K-Scope

[JDodge]

"Supposed to", not "is".

[Mariyta]

"Supposed to", not "is".

Do you have anything better to go on at this point, my dear? You're great at bashing others' ideas, but you're not so great at offering your own.

[IH]

I dunno why people are taking messenger roles seriously, unless they think the message role is a tracker or something, because it's not like they could even say anything that useful.

If there was anything useful, I'd be more into looking at the freaktown enquierer and seeing if anything can be decoded from the headline, as if they post it it could be scrambled with bullcrap from the mod.

[Kinetic]

I'm assuming the "you and BM" in Carrotcake's post was referring to myself and BM, but it'd be nice if we got clarification.

Well I'm here (have been the whole time...), I think the main targets right now consist of IH, Mari, and KD. Seems to me it might be best to string someone up and maybe get some claims. To me it seems like though, no matter what is claimed we may not know if its a town or a scum role >>.

This post is really off. IH is not that much of a target. He has two votes, for fuck's sake. Just because you're voting him does not make him a main target. Hell, you and Battle Mage have two votes, so that'd make you two main targets as well. Why did the list have to stop at IH? And while we're on the subject of the list, K-sc0pe should definitely not be lynched today. As far as I can tell all 4 people voting him don't have a reason to do it. They voted on suspicion I created, and that suspicion is no longer valid at all. K-sc0pe is definitely not someone we should consider for lynch today.

Vote: Kinetic

There, now you're a main target for today. Seems a lot better than the "main targets" you suggested.

I put him on that list because the last 3-4 pages or so have been devoted to people pressuring IH. Not necessarily all voting for him, but I stand by what I said, that he seems to be one of the possible targets. I eliminated myself and BM from the pool because, frankly, the votes on the two of us are either really old and (in the case of BM) irrelevant to the game. BM having 1-2 votes on him at anytime is normal in my opinion.

I agree on KScope, heck I was one of the first ones to vote him and unvote him on the exact same information as you. But that doesn't mean he doesn't still have the most votes.

So let me ask YOU: We have a deadline in 3 %^#*ing days. What should we do? Look at EVERY possible target and try and get SOMETHING going, or just flounder and say, "Hmm well I have no idea what to do?" I think if we have to lynch in 3 days that we SHOULD. It may not be the BEST lynch, but its the town who loses if we don't.

I do personally think IH is possible scum, so yes, I'm going to put him on my list. His response?

Well I'm here (have been the whole time...), I think the main targets right now consist of IH, Mari, and KD. Seems to me it might be best to string someone up and maybe get some claims. To me it seems like though, no matter what is claimed we may not know if its a town or a scum role >>.

.......

fos:kinetic

Mmmm, can you smell the OMGUS.

[IH]

Seems you can't see the pointlessness of your statement.

First of all, you seem to present a false dillema by just listing players you think are scummy and not the most likely candidates for a lynch.

Second of all, your claims statement is

pointless

[Mastermind of Sin]

I WOULD RATHER NO LYNCH THAN LYNCH KSC0PE RIGHT NOW.

Got it?

now let's get back to lynching Kinetic instead of no lynching, because that would be bad.

[the silent speaker]

Unvote, vote: IH

, partly on the basis of claimgate, but also because of his role in the Mariyta wagon. I suspect there was scum on the wagon then and scum on it now, and would be happy to switch to JDodge if the wind were to shift that way, but with a deadline I want to make sure of getting a lynch through.

[Mariyta]

I put him on that list because the last 3-4 pages or so have been devoted to people pressuring IH. Not necessarily all voting for him, but I stand by what I said, that he seems to be one of the possible targets. I eliminated myself and BM from the pool because, frankly, the votes on the two of us are either really old and (in the case of BM) irrelevant to the game. BM having 1-2 votes on him at anytime is normal in my opinion.

I agree on KScope, heck I was one of the first ones to vote him and unvote him on the exact same information as you. But that doesn't mean he doesn't still have the most votes.

So let me ask YOU: We have a deadline in 3 %^#*ing days. What should we do? Look at EVERY possible target and try and get SOMETHING going, or just flounder and say, "Hmm well I have no idea what to do?" I think if we have to lynch in 3 days that we SHOULD. It may not be the BEST lynch, but its the town who loses if we don't.

I do personally think IH is possible scum, so yes, I'm going to put him on my list. His response?

Well, you answered the other 2, but I still don't understand why I'm on that list. As for IH's comments about the newspapers, read the descriptions. I highly doubt anything about eating double what everyone else does will have any bearing on the game. I'm willing to bet that one was simply for entertainment value. The Sun-Times headline seems quite believable, while the Mafia's headline... well, post that one again in a few days and then we can start to worry

[Faeren Lord of Carlisle]

I'm down with putting kinetic-scum up.

Vote Kinetic

[IH]

Unvote, vote: IH, partly on the basis of claimgate, but also because of his role in the Mariyta wagon. I suspect there was scum on the wagon then and scum on it now, and would be happy to switch to JDodge if the wind were to shift that way, but with a deadline I want to make sure of getting a lynch through.

On the Mariyta wagon.

The joke wagon.

Right?

Just clarifying.

[the silent speaker]

Yes. The joke wagon. Which reached two thirds of the way to lynch before anyone figured out the punchline. That one.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

I WOULD RATHER NO LYNCH THAN LYNCH KSC0PE RIGHT NOW.

Got it?

No, I still don't get it.