Newbie 476: Slow, slow, slow, then FAST and over. Damn.

[Sir Tornado]

Original Roll String: 1d6

1 6-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

[Sir Tornado]

Vote jmar

[Sir Tornado]

Sir Tornado, do you really believe that truly random votes have any purpose in a Mafia game, or have you just been sucked in by their prevalance? Also, are you Mafia?

I actually don't think random votes have all that purpose in a mafia game, except that someone always seems to make some sort of mistake/comment in the random voting stage which leads the game out of random voting stage and into a period of play with real substance. I usually do not "random" vote in a game, my first vote is almost always made on people with whom I have played a game before with a non existent logic, or a OMGUS vote.

And, no I am not scum (but my answer would have remained the same here even if I were scum...)

[Sir Tornado]

Sir Tornado, if you don't believe your vote was useful, why make it?

Because, if you don't make up a vote, or do something similar to get responses from people, the game never actually gets underway.

Stephy_nz: The problem with a no lynch D1 is, that baring a cop investigation, almost the same logic applies to D2. A no lynch can't be our strategy because:

1) We have only 50% chance of having a cop in this setup, with a further 33.33% chance of him getting a scum investigation N1. That is much less than the 30% chance for getting scum lynched on D1.

2) A no-lynch combined with a scum NK not only gives the scum the opportunity to escape into D2 without any sort suspicion on them, but also means that the game, for town begins with 6 instead of 7 players.

3) Even if a townie is lynched on D1, you can find the scum by looking at the way in which the said townie was lynched.

And, at the end of the day, we are not going to randomly lynch the scum on D1.

[Sir Tornado]

I hope I have demonstrated that you can get responses from people without a vote. But I would also like to get across to the new players (and to you) that rolling dice is a terrible way to start the game.

If I see you make an

apparently

random vote, or if I ask a particular player a question, or if stephy_nz tells us who she thinks the scum are (even at this very early stage) - that's all information. If I can see that your vote is truly random, however, it tells me nothing but that you think a vote is required at this point and you think rolling dice is an acceptable start.

Random voting is the crutch of the player that hasn't considered the alternatives.

[/soap box]

Well... I actually never thought of it that way (and, I haven't encountered anyone here so far who argued that way) but I agree with you that it makes sense. I should not have decided my vote on the cast the dice.

[Sir Tornado]

If I had to use my gut I would vote for Mith.. Mostly cause I always fear the smart helpful people...

I wouldn't mind a bit more from Holy and Havok before I start my voting stage...

My early views... Stephy is just a new player... Probably town from my experience... Holy I can't say for certain... Maybe a new player who doesn't want to say too much because its her first time as mafia... Maybe just doesn't want to attract any attention to herself... Sir Tornado... Could go either way... I haven't actually seen anything scummy from him yet but his comment about getting the game underway makes me suspicious. I know a lot of ways to get the game underway... Most of them actually ends up getting me lynched... but hey... it still works... jmar... Eh.. Hes shown his inexperience and hasn't said much to stand out.

Then we have Mith... Who... Um... probably one of the smartest players on the forum... So again I can't say for certain...

So I'm going to remain voteless and see where the discussion gets us. But if I had to vote I would throw it on Sir Torn or Mith... I'm sure that will change by the time I actually vote though..

Wait, you say you haven't seen anything scummy from me and yet say my comment on getting the game underway was suspicious? Isn't that a contradiction of sorts? (Also, I want to know

how

my comment about getting the game underway was scummy)

[Sir Tornado]

Korlash, your coin flipping corelation is incorrect. This more like picking up chits from a hat. There are two that say scum an five that say town. The chance to pick up town is not 50%. It is 5/7.

[Sir Tornado]

-Sir_Tornado seems to have quieted down. One thing I wonder though--he agreed with mith in post 32 that rolling dice is a bad way to vote. He still hasn't unvoted, though. Slight FOS; of course, it's possible that he's just really busy and hasn't had time to post, like me/Holy/stephy; or maybe he's lurking because he's scum and he got called out on the first couple of pages (WIFOM alert!).

Yes, I tend to do that. I usually post in quite a bit in short time and disappear for a while till I get inspired again.

The vote stays because, well, it was random, and everyone one has, in fact not posted yet, which is when I take off the random vote. (either that, or the first VC, whichever is later)

I would be quite hesitant to vote someone who I felt in my gut was town, even if they had displayed scum tells. I don't think any of us should abandon our gut, is all I'm saying.

I try to follow scum tells, unless it is a LyLo, because I have lost a couple of games precisely because of ignoring my gut feeling and voting the scummiest player... (who I really, really thought was a townie, but looked quite scummy)

[Sir Tornado]

unvote

I have a question for mith: If I'm not asking a bit too much for more explanation about 'Newbie 476' players from you, would I stay at your 'Not so much' list?

I don't like this part.

[Sir Tornado]

On the other hand, Holy has some pro-town points... the whole idea of her testing each person seems townish to me, or it could be a very good scum play (I know I'll prolly be hit with WIFOM for this)

I don't think it is WIFOM actually.

[Sir Tornado]

We are having some sort of discussion as to what is really a WIFOM and what is not in some topic on Mafia Discussion forums here... check it out.

[Sir Tornado]

I am not against picking Sir Torny as our deadline kill (If we decide to kill someone) Mostly because he like... never posts anymore...

Deadline kill?

Vote Korlash

Jmar, I know you must have seen me posting in GD topics two hours before you posted here saying I am doing so. However, you would realize, that I haven't posted in the other game we are a part of for a long time either. You were quick to FOS me here because I was active there and inactive here, but the reverse logic does not seem to apply (reverse logic = inactive in both games)

Any particular reason?

[Sir Tornado]

EBWOP: Emphasize "kill" in my last post.

[Sir Tornado]

It is not worthless tell. Scum generally tend to use "kill" instead of lynch rather than town.

My problem, is not that you wanted to pressurize me, or anyone in particular. It is, your choice of words that I don't like.

[Sir Tornado]

Alright, think what you want... But just notice I have never said kill before/again... other then in post 201 but that was about a deadline.

Precisely what makes it even more scummy. Scum don't say stuff like that on purpose especially if they know it is scummy. It just slips out occasionally.

[Sir Tornado]

2. I don't find someone using "kill" instead of "lynch" at all noteworthy, and it so it bothers me a bit that, of all the things Sir Tornado could have commented on, he chose that.

To be honest, I got prodded, came to this thread, read through it, and called out the first thing I found strikingly scummy, which is the usage of the word "kill". I generally try to meta the person who uses the word "kill" to see if they use it often, but in this case, I only had this game to go by, where Korlash

hadn't

used to word kill before.

[Sir Tornado]

I would like to see Sir Tornado participate more. That said,

1. I don't think he's "lurking", I just think he forgot about this game. (Add "lurking" to the list of "terms mith thinks are badly overused in Mafia", along with WIFOM.)

This is more or less correct.

[Sir Tornado]

See a no lynch requires a majority of us to vote it, while not lynching come deadline merely requires a majority of us to not be voting. See a no lynch is when a town comes together and agrees not to lynch, a deadline no lynch is when a mod stops the game before the town comes to a decision. See with the Mod killing our day, we have just lost a lot of posts and info we would have gotten if the day had continued. And so we have lost attacks, mistakes, strategies, scum tells, pro town tells, reasons to lynch, reasons to defend, FoSs, distancing, bad playing, crap logic, good logic, IC help, newbie mistakes, rookie questions, etc... etc... etc...

This point is really immaterial, because, at the end of the day, a deadlined no lynch really is the same as a voted no lynch. It has the same effect on the game (well, almost the same). If anything, I think a deadline no lynch benefits the scum much, much more than a voted no lynch, because you cannot actually blame only the scum for a deadline no lynch (blame the scum as in call anyone in particular scummy due to it).

At the same time, a deadline no lynch is much worse for the town. If the town votes no lynch, we know who were pushing for a no lynch. That is information. When the town deadlines into a no lynch, the information we get is all too vague.

Hence, I think it is very important to arrive at some sort of lynch, preferably before deadline, rather than a deadline lynch, although the later is not that bad for the town.

Mith says Holy's not voting... Holy votes next post... curious. Seems a bit like appeasement to me.

Well... tbh, mith told Holy to vote earlier, not just commented about Holy not voting. Appeasement does play some part in the game even when you are town, so it is not necessarily scummy.

Oh, please... It's just a coincidence, I prefer not voting if I don't find quite enough scummy-ness emanated.

However, I do not believe this completely.

I will post something more today.

[Sir Tornado]

I'll take that as... you found me as your top suspect.

Not necessarily. I don't think your voting lionden right after mith commented you weren't voting was a "coincidence" as you said it was.

[Sir Tornado]

There are, apparantly, only 6 more hours to deadline, and I'd prefer some lynch to no lynch today, so, I will

unvote

and

vote Holy

.

I still think Korlash is more scummier than Holy. His self vote increases my conviction in his scumminess. It seemed to me, that he is merely trying to play for a no lynch. His attempts to stall a Holy lynch make him look much worse in my eyes.

If someone votes Korlash before the deadline, I will switch my vote to him if I am online and if it will get him lynched.

[Sir Tornado]

Ok, I think I am up to date with the game now.

Yeah, I agree that I had been lurking... but it was a global phenomenon for me. If you don't believe this, check out the following games:

Newbie 501, Mini 510 (where Jmar is playing too), Mini 520, Mafia 67, Mafia 68, Mafia 72, Doctor Who Mafia 2, and Food Fight Mafia and Designer Mafia.

You will find that I was lurking in all those games while I was lurking here (academic issues), and I obviously can't be scum in all my games....

Jmar, I have one particular problem with your theory about me being scum because I was on last lynch. It doesn't actually apply. Stoofer's law is applicable only in the instances where a lynch takes place, instead of a deadline, and I am not scum really.

I tried the exact same hypothesis you are trying that right now in Newbie 417 where I was the cop. It ended in a disaster for the town.

[Sir Tornado]

I still don't like Sir Torn and Havok, though. I mean, I know all about getting busy with school stuff, but one post to say "hey, I'm still alive, just a little busy" would have sufficed. Now we have a deadline and not much time to figure out a lylo situation.

How would one post saying "Hey, I'm still alive, just a little busy" have sufficed? Does that actually contribute anything to the game? How is that better than not posting at all?

[Sir Tornado]

Korlash is claiming a cop? I am fairly sceptical about this claim... Korlash, WHY did you investigate jmar if you are indeed the cop?

[Sir Tornado]

Ok, people, we'd better get this right.

I tend to agree with jmar right now, mainly because I did find some of Korlash's end D1 play scummy. Looking back of Korlash's claim, I begin to feel that he required a bit of prompting from jmar rather than come out with it outright. I think we should check his early D2 play. If he is cop and indeed get a guilty on jmar, he would come out strongly against jmar on D2. That's what I expect cops to do when they get guilty; go through the play of the person they got guilty on, and check if he did anything scummy. Did Korlash do anything like that?

[Sir Tornado]

Why ask the question? Why not actually give an answer? To me, this post absolutely screams partnership.

As much as I really don't like the way the big long Korlash post comes off, I don't like that post even more...so (I really hope I get this right...)

Vote: Jmar

I am glad

someone

noticed that post...

Vote jmar

GG Korlash...