Mini 508- Trouble in New Catania-Game Over

[CrashTextDummie]

That would be me.

[CrashTextDummie]

I've slaved several hours over this game in order to get up to speed, and now I'm too exhausted to post an elaborate analysis. Here's a brief preview though:

1. The Lowell bandwagon is rotten. I don't find him particularly suspicious, and I find the size and speed of his bandwagon entirely disproportionate.
2. Hi, LML.
3. Kuribo is scummy.

Unvote (if necessary), Vote: Kuribo

[CrashTextDummie]

Details on each of these, please? To me, for reasons previously stated, it seems entirely obvious that Lowell has been giving off a nearly overpowering scum vibe. More importantly, back up your Kuribo claims

1. I've been in a number of games with Lowell, and his playstyle here is pretty much standard Lowell. Naturally, this means that I have no real read on him at this point in time, but the fact that he was bandwagoned to Lynch -1 by page 6 indicates to me that there's scum pushing for his lynch. The "overpowering scum vibe" you speak of is simply non-existent in my eyes.

2. I am suspicious of Kuribo because his push for a Lowell-lynch was particularly unreasonable. By page 4, he was already asking for a lynch ("We should string up Lowell and see what happens tonight"). His reasoning for this was weak at best and fallacious at worst. Stuff like this:

Even if we're wrong by lynching Lowell, we'll still be able to find out his allegiance one way or another and analyze the events of the day armed with that knowledge.

Sounds like overeager scum to me. He wants to go to night more than anything. And advocating an informational lynch on page 6 is just nasty.

The size and speed of his bandwagon? Please. It's been going on for at least three pages, and has carried us up to about a week and a half before our imposed deadline. Lowell's evasiveness only serves to hasten that deadline, and we all know that only scum benefits from a no-lynch. If he's town, he could absolutely be more helpful. As for the size, in case you haven't noticed, the "bandwagon" hasn't exactly been a runaway freight train.

1. A week an a half to deadline is plenty of time, and it's in the town's best interest to use all the time it has at its disposal, especially when the deadline is imposed this early.
2. Correspondingly, the town was never in danger of a no-lynch so far. Attempting to use a potential no-lynch in order to speed up a lynch in this situation amounts to lynch-mongering in my eyes. Which is not a pro-town trait.
3. You say he could be "more helpful", completely disregarding his fairly extensive analysis. Regardless whether you think it's accurate or not, accusing him of being unhelpful when several players have done less is not kosher.

@CTD: You still think the Lowell wagon smells bad?

Yeah.

[CrashTextDummie]

My reasoning was clearly stated in that Lowell was being extremely unhelpful to the town with sarcastic replies as well as cryptic and baseless accusations. You said you've played with him before. Does he always act like this? He didn't bother being helpful in the least until Page 6.

For the record, I didn't find him overly unhelpful or cryptic considering how early in the game it was. And as I said, this behavior is not unusual for him based on my experience.

No, I'm not overeager scum, I don't feel like Lowell is going to be any more helpful, even if we give him 100 more pages.

I have no idea how you can say stuff like this with a straight face, considering he has

already

been helpful with his analysis, which is valuable whether he is scum or not. Your accusations that he is unhelpful are completely baseless at this point.

A week and a half is hardly any time at all when the thread was only getting one or two replies every day, like this thread was. There was alot of lurking / inactivity going on. Hell, to a certain extent, there still is.

The purpose of a deadline is to encourage discussion, not to encourage a quicklynch. Activity almost always picks up the closer to deadline you get. How the hell do you think games with fixed one- or two-week deadlines work?

And yet it's pro-town to reply to accusations (even against Claus) with vague and sarcastic replies? Tell me, CTD, how did THAT help the town, other than leading us to suspect Lowell in the first place?

Finger-pointing is not a valid defense. You pushing for a quicklynch to "avoid a no-lynch" has absolutely nothing to do with Lowell's behavior.

The analysis came only AFTER he was pushed to L-1 and criticized repeatedly for not being helpful. When it finally looks like it's go-time, he manages to eke out a complete analysis of the game thus far. So, yes, he has been unhelpful. At least until it has served him to be otherwise.

You accuse him of being unhelpful. He starts being helpful. You accuse him of only being helpful "when it serves him". You do not have the open mind of a pro-town player.

QFT. I couldn't explain it better.

FoS: LML

I can't believe you're supporting this nonsense.

[CrashTextDummie]

Now see how much information we can get by that. Lowell lynch is the one that will procure the town the most information. If Lowell reveals himself to be town, then the one that were pushing for his lynch, on the Mafia Lowell group have much more chance to reveal themselves to be scum.

Howver, if he turns out to be scum, there will be one scum left

and we'll be able to say that the ones on the Town Lowell group have much more chance to reveal themselves to be scum. In each cases, we can eliminate half of the suspects has scum candidates. I think it's great for day 1, isn't it?

Where did you get the idea that there is only 2 scum?

[CrashTextDummie]

In addition:

Unvote for now. Don't want someone to drop the hammer before the town is ready to

What made you think the town was ready earlier? You were the one that put him at L-1.

[CrashTextDummie]

When did I say that I thought that the town was ready earlier?

You put him at L-1. That implies that

you

were ready at the very least, and when a pro-town player is ready to so something, he usually thinks it's in the best interest of the town.

Either you thought the town was ready, or you're not a pro-town player.

I just didn't want a scum that would put the hammer on Lowell right now using what I said as a reason for his hammer in order to not leave the town time to accumulate more info, considering Lowell is town.

You seriously think a scum would hammer in this situation, considering it's pretty clear we're getting some good information right now and doing so would pretty much give him away?

Also, if I am to take you literally here, you're pretty much saying that you know Lowell to be town, although I have a feeling this might have something to do with English not being your first language.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm willing to believe that this was not a scum-slip, even though it seems kinda redundant to say something like "if he turns out to be scum, there will be one scum gone".

What still bothers me though is the whole "putting someone at L-1, yet not thinking the town is ready for a lynch" deal. I get the feeling that you were trying to appear pro-town by taking your vote off after the lynch didn't go through as you intended. The fact that you still want him lynched at the end of the day despite this ("for max info!") reinforces that feeling. I can sense the disappointment.

Unvote, Vote: someone2

[CrashTextDummie]

I've putted that vote like two pages ago. At the time, we didn't had the little fight between the two groups, as explained above, so I didn't considered the number of information we could get by day 1.

Yeah, look, this is just crap. I'm sure this isn't the first game you're playing, so I'm sure you know that a lot of information can be gathered when you don't end the day on page 6.

2.We can eliminate half of the suspects by lynching Lowell, but if we can eliminate more today by questionning others, exactly what you do with me, it'll be better!

Except we can't. Scum vote for their partners and defend townies on a regular basis, and I find it incredibly hard to believe that you could be so naive.

[CrashTextDummie]

Hi Ibby! <3 Ibby! ^_^

I quite like your approach re: Rishi. I find him reasonably scummy as well as of late.

No one likes my LML vote. Sad.

I was about to say that not only did I not like your LML vote, I actively disliked it. But upon rereading, I realized that you weren't voting LML at all at that point.

Nevertheless, I still dislike the sentiment. The feeling I'm getting from this, and from you in general, is that you're sitting at the sideline. You did a bit of defending Lowell and a bit of attacking someone2 (more on that later), but overall, you don't seem to be too interested in the most interesting topics of the game. The fact that you're lamenting a lack of LML votes when you haven't made any effort to get any pressure whatsoever on him (I don't even see a proper case) indicates to me that you're just treading water.

Okay. At first, I was going to jump to someone2's defense, saying that he's new and it could have been an honest mistake. Looking back over his games played, he has played in a game with Three Mafia before. I still think the slip might have been honest, but he is defending himself badly.

Vote: someone2

Well, I think I will have to explain it in English because it looks like you do not understand English. I made a simple mistake of meaning in the word left, that in my inexperience of English, I had forgotten that he had two meanings, or left in the direction remains, and left in the direction party. I used that word in the sense party, and you understood in the sense remains. So I apologize for the confusion.

Mod note: It translates francais as ENGLISH? How shit a piece of software is that?

This is what someone2 said. I doubt it's the perfect translation, but I think I get the gist.

Unvote

= the sum total of what Rishi had to say about someone2.

First of all, I find it astonishing how easily Rishi was willing to abandon his someone2 vote, and how he completely ignores the fact that the alleged "slip" was not the only thing someone2 was accused of.

If this (quite obvious) explanation was all it took to convince Rishi that the slip was none at all, one has to question why he found it suspicious in the first place. I could see this being a panic reaction by a scum-buddy.

Yeah. That was so obviously scummy. I'm starting to think... Jester?

I don't think it's unheard of in a Mini Normal.

Scummy sentiment. The possibility of a Jester is usually

not

something a townie has on his mind. In the vast majority of cases where Jesters where brought up in games lately, it was done by scum. It serves them because it adds another layer of confusion for the town to think about and because it's a convenient way of commenting on a player without taking a proper stance. Really don't like this.

I actually agree, Lowell.

Unvote

I still find you the most scummy, but more discussion would be useful.

You want more discussion... and so you unvote? Your discussion-generating methods are foreign to me.

I'm still suspicious of someone2 and will leave my vote there pending a response from Rishi.

[CrashTextDummie]

Hi.

Various circumstances have lead to me not being able to access MS for a while, and I apologize.

But I am back now, and eager to get back into my games. I'll get up to speed ASAP.

[CrashTextDummie]

Didn't get a chance to reread, but my vote is where it's supposed to be, on the vote leader.

Would really appreciate it if we could get a lynch here.

[CrashTextDummie]

For me, personally, I was no longer convinced of someone2's scumdom--- I was beginning to see Happiest Sadist as a strong candidate for lynching, but by the time I came around to that way of thinking, the town was apparently set firmly in "Let's lynch someone2" mode.

Lynch > No Lynch

If you disagree, you better come up with a good explanation. You were not convinced of someone2's guilt, that's fair enough. But by making a conscious decision not to lynch, you've deliberately opted to surrender the collective town's only means to actually get rid of scum (a vig is not guaranteed, and already dead now in our case). In a situation like this, you must always consider that you could be wrong and the people on the bandwagon could be right, and you must weigh this in the decision whether potentially lynching a pro-town player is worse than not lynching at all. Usually, it isn't. You didn't seem to consider, which puts you in a bad light.

You also didn't seem to consider the fact that someone2 didn't try to avoid being lynched by claiming (as far as I remember and gathered from skimming his posts), which is standard procedure in a situation like that. Instead, it seemed like he tried his luck by banking on the town's indifference, which doesn't seem pro-town to me at all. Any thoughts on that?

In unrelated matters, Vaughn's last post tingled my scumdar big time:

So you're saying these 6 people have it wrong? half of the players in a 12 person game seem to agree that you are by far the scummiest player around.

This is bullshit of the highest degree. 3 or more of these 6 people could be scum for all I know, which would mean that the majority of the town had it right. That you use such crapreasoning to attack another player is highly unsettling.

@Everyone else - Any speculation as to why Ibby was off'ed? I'll look at the posts and see what i can come up with later today.

As is this.

Speculating on nightkills is a largely fruitless endeavor and usually serves as nothing more than a distraction. There is

no

way of knowing why she was killed until the scum tell us in end-game. It could have been to invite the WIFOM you seem to be angling at for all I care.

Vaughn, Kuribo and someone2 are all worthy of a vote based on today alone. I'll read back through D1 to make up my mind on which one needs to die the fastest.

[CrashTextDummie]

My point is that using "half the players thought X" in an argument is seriously wonky because half the players generally includes some number of scum. I don't care to (and didn't) speculate on the number of scum on this particular wagon until someone2's alignment is known, but the mere

possibility

that it was heavily scum-driven completely invalidates your line of reasoning. It's a loaded question.

In addition, your attempt to spin-doctor my attack against

you

into a defense of someone2 is quite frankly ludicrous considering my stance on him for most of the game. If you use logical fallacies, I'm going to point them out, no matter who you target them at.

[CrashTextDummie]

I have to question the people currently voting Kuribo without even wanting to know if Thesp is able to verify the claim.

Having said that, here's a question for Thok:
Could you elaborate why you have Vaughn and Rishi on your town list?

I'm currently leaning towards voting one of those two, but will have to do a proper reread before I can back it with an analysis.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm uncertain as to what you're saying here - are you suggesting I wait to confirm/deny kuribo's claim? I'll wait for your response before proceeding in that arena.

Actually, I've heard enough already. No need to press this issue further.

Follow-up question for Thok:
So you don't see any merit in the case Ibby and I formulated against Rishi on D1?

Still haven't gotten around to reread, I'll try to do it tomorrow. I did skim through Rishi's posts just now though, and I don't see any "interest in hunting scum" profound enough to place him on a town list. There's been a particular lack of anything substantial from him on D2, even though he appeared to be around (and yes, I'm aware that I wasn't a beacon of contribution myself). So could you elaborate further, Thok? Some quotes of his of stuff you liked a lot would be helpful, since there's absolutely none of them in your analysis.