Mini 497 - Game Over

[kabenon007]

It was not meant to be a patronizing tone, I actually wanted you to understand it. Oh well...

And it was kind of like a build up of pressure, starting with that post of dusterhan's vote count please, building building building and then wham, a coup de graux (i don't know how to spell that) with his "I'm still here" post. That was the last straw. So I voted, cuz my opinion changed. There you have it.

[Aimee]

Ugh! I can't get a read on anybody! 'Tis frustrating! I've still got nothing for you guys.

unvote, vote: Atticus

Try again?

[destructor]

Ugh! I can't get a read on anybody! 'Tis frustrating! I've still got nothing for you guys.

That's not cool, man.

For a start, regarding your post 288, can you explain:
1. Why my case on TinVision is interesting, and
2. Why you won't vote for him?

Besides these questions,

something

from you would be appreciated. I don't think anyone is expecting anything conclusive or profound, but I'm sure you can muster enough content to at least give us some food for though.

[joost]

Okay a lot has been posted since I checked this. I'm too tired at the moment to post but I'll do that tomorrow or the day after.

[curiouskarmadog]

note to all my games:

going to be a light poster for the next 3-4 days (best man in a wedding) should be back and posting regularly by Sunday/Monday..

[Sephiroth]

And it was kind of like a build up of pressure, starting with that post of dusterhan's vote count please, building building building and then wham, a coup de graux (i don't know how to spell that) with his "I'm still here" post. That was the last straw. So I voted, cuz my opinion changed. There you have it.

Possible. But I don't like that you would argue that he isn't scummy, while the notion that he is scummy is building and building. I'll drop the point for now, I've been promising to finish my PBP's for a long time now.

Knuck/OP:

His first real post, besides asking Duster for reasoning behind his vote, was this:

As far as the posts go I agree that Dusterhans posts are odd because of the confusion and suspicion he puts on himself which really doesn't help the town, although from his other games this seems to be the norm. And my question I asked him was just to get a response from him to see if he would actually answer it or not, there's no real suspicion on his vote.

...in which he seems to express a lack of suspicion, based on meta logic. Firstly, this is wrong because as far as I can tell, Duster was in only one other game. Secondly, it is wrong because we do not know whether Duster is town or scum in either games, so theres no real way to tell whether the behavior is protown or antitown, and thirdly, it is wrong because it's not even true. Duster's posts in his other game were at least a little involved in the game. A meta defense in this situation seems questionable.
His post 84 is the classic "cover all the bases" kind of post. I'm not sure if I consider this scummy or not, but tis something to note for later in the game. post 116 is pretty odd, considering that later he would later make a change in opinion about Duster. He calls the TV switch suspicious. Post 215 and post 222 are the big change that everyone that has been widely discussed. But the thing is...I really dont find it that suspicious. You see, Knuck did exactly what I did. We both felt that it was more than likely that Duster was town, and at first we were against lynching him. However, we both decided it was better for the town overall to lynch him, townie or not. So I dont find what he did scummy, seeing as he was consistent on whether he felt Duster was scum or town. I still find Kab's switch from Duster being town to duster being scum (seemingly arbitrarily) to be more scummy. OP comes in with a basic "cover the bases" replacement post. Nothing about Knuck or OP reads scummy to me, besides the wierd meta at the beginning.

Destructor:

Mainly random stuff, lurker prodding, and meta logic up until post 72 where he attacks TV, as well as myself, though these are only attacks on my playstyle. I also thought the attacks on TV were weak. He backs down in his attacks on me in post 94. Soon after he votes TV for his editting and his change of opinion, and fosses Atticus for lurking. Good call. Weirdly enough, Knuck backs up destructor in the Dest/TV debate, which I found odd. Destructor again backs down from suspicions in post 126. From there on Destrcutor discusses Aimees suspicions, questions joosts vote on duster. Not much relevant from that point until post 259, where he questions the sense of lynching Duster. I defend my position on lynching Duster, but there is no response from Destructor, since Duster was replaced. So the point is moot. From there he attacks TV for a while, then backs down after decent responses. Overall, I get a protown feeling. My only problem with him is his tendency to back down from his suspicions. However, the fact that he has done this with a variety of players leads me to think that it is a playstyle thing.



So thats 6 players reviewed, a bunch to go (to see the other 4, look at page 9). Also, atticus, how is this:

Ugh! I can't get a read on anybody! 'Tis frustrating! I've still got nothing for you guys.

different from this:

i've got no idea who could be mafia... so, lets leave me alone and discuss who else could be a scum

which warranted this?

Dusterhan... Tsk tsk tsk... You need to stop volunteering for things you can't do. Examples: answering questions, playing the game mafia.

[OpposedForce]

Thanks for the list OpposedForce. I'd like to know one thing though. What do you think of how Knuck played the game?

Well I certaintly don't like his play on how he thinks Dusterhan was town and didn't see him as scummy but yet votes for him thinking the lynch would provide good information. I'm not sure what to make of the play seeing how his opinion doesn't suit well with his play. Pretty bad move if you ask me.

You just spent all of that explaining why he could be scum. Why then do you find him town?

Well I not so sure why I get a protown vibe from Atticus. Maybe I just posted down a feeling without looking at relevant information. I'll look on him later to see if my vibe suited well with his posts.

[destructor]

Destructor:

Mainly random stuff, lurker prodding, and meta logic up until post 72 where he attacks TV, as well as myself, though these are only attacks on my playstyle.

No, my attacks (I wouldn't call them that, personally) were on your scummy posts. I don't think a playstyle is an excuse for scumminess.

I also thought the attacks on TV were weak.

Perhaps I could have chosen my words more carefully. Essentially, what I saw from TinVision was dishonestly while being defensive. This is scummy behaviour.

He backs down in his attacks on me in post 94.

Only for the sake of discussion. UnFOSing doesn't usually happen, but if it did, I wouldn't necessarily have done it yet.

Destructor again backs down from suspicions in post 126.

All I really did was note that I had misread a post by Tin. I wouldn't call it backing down, since the specific suspicion I raised at the time was based on a misread. My earlier opinion still stood.

I defend my position on lynching Duster, but there is no response from Destructor...

I didn't mean not to refer to your response at all, but I felt no great urge to continue discussing dusterhan. Eventually, when I realised I'd not refered to your post, dusterhan had been replaced and most of your questions were answered/mooted.

From there he attacks TV for a while, then backs down after decent responses.

I backed down (again)? The last thing I said after Tin's response was that I thought we should lynch him. How was that backing down? I think his response made him look scummier!

[joost]

Ok a post about what has been happening here"

I can't ignore this

Good catch on Sephiroth. I will have to reread him. What exactly is crap about the argument on lynching Duster (besides the fact that he never voted for Duster himself)?

I thought you were a better player then to call this mess of misrepresentations and assumptions "a good catch".

I probably phrased that wrongly. What I mean was that CKD pointed out things that until then were unaddressed. I was complimenting him about added renewed opinions to the game. Note that I said I needed to reread you and that at the time I couldn't really tell if it was or was not a "mess of misrepresentations", although at the time it seemed like a good arguement. I do however feel that Sephiroth defended himself well in his post 305 and I think he's protown as he's actively trying to catch scum (and picking fights with almost everybody).

I'm not sure about CKD, I'm still suspicious of him as he's Duster's replacement and I'd like to hear his reasons for using the words "crap arguement" about not wanting to keep Duster alive. I find it odd that he take a stand in the Duster debate. But I am not sure if Seph's defends makes CKD more suspicous... I think not, to be honest.

Also, atticus, how is this:

Ugh! I can't get a read on anybody! 'Tis frustrating! I've still got nothing for you guys.

different from this:

i've got no idea who could be mafia... so, lets leave me alone and discuss who else could be a scum

I was planning on posting the same comparison

which warranted this?

Dusterhan... Tsk tsk tsk... You need to stop volunteering for things you can't do. Examples: answering questions, playing the game mafia.

I forgot about this quote from Atticus.

FoS: Atticus

.

And it was kind of like a build up of pressure, starting with that post of dusterhan's vote count please, building building building and then wham, a coup de graux (i don't know how to spell that) with his "I'm still here" post. That was the last straw. So I voted, cuz my opinion changed. There you have it.

This seems like a weak arguement. I believe someone can change his mind, but I don't believe about pressure building. Pressure on whom? What kind of pressure?

[kabenon007]

Pressure inside of me, building. Like annoyance, if you catch my meaning. I was becoming increasingly annoyed with Duster, and then he made me change my opinion due to an increase in internal annoyance, which I referred to as pressure. Probably a bad analogy, but oh well, it's been typed already.

[kabenon007]

Like you shake up a bottle of pop long enough, eg. dusterhan's continued lurking and refusing to post after we asked him to and pointed out it wasn't good what he was doing, then the top pops off after the pressure builds, eg. me voting.

[Sephiroth]

Destructor:

Mainly random stuff, lurker prodding, and meta logic up until post 72 where he attacks TV, as well as myself, though these are only attacks on my playstyle.

No, my attacks (I wouldn't call them that, personally) were on your scummy posts. I don't think a playstyle is an excuse for scumminess.

Apologies, this was completely my fault. For some reason I had you mixed up with Aimee, who backed down from her attacks because she accepted it was my playstyle. However, after I state that it is my playstyle to be aggressive (especially early in the game) so as to get reactions, you never bring up that point again, only bring my attacks on SP into question. Thats probably what contributed to the mix up.

I also thought the attacks on TV were weak.

Perhaps I could have chosen my words more carefully. Essentially, what I saw from TinVision was dishonestly while being defensive. This is scummy behaviour.

Ah. Alright. My main problem is that the dishonesty is unverifiable. Also, defensiveness is not a scum tell (in my opinion anyways).

He backs down in his attacks on me in post 94.

Only for the sake of discussion. UnFOSing doesn't usually happen, but if it did, I wouldn't necessarily have done it yet.

Alright. I find it odd when a player just ends a discussion. Not necessarily scummy, but odd.

Destructor again backs down from suspicions in post 126.

All I really did was note that I had misread a post by Tin. I wouldn't call it backing down, since the specific suspicion I raised at the time was based on a misread. My earlier opinion still stood.

Alright.

I defend my position on lynching Duster, but there is no response from Destructor...

I didn't mean not to refer to your response at all, but I felt no great urge to continue discussing dusterhan. Eventually, when I realised I'd not refered to your post, dusterhan had been replaced and most of your questions were answered/mooted.

Yeah, I know. That's what I said in my post, you just only quoted part of it.

From there he attacks TV for a while, then backs down after decent responses.

I backed down (again)? The last thing I said after Tin's response was that I thought we should lynch him. How was that backing down? I think his response made him look scummier!

Thanks for the answers, they were satisfactory.

I'm aware of the rest of the post...but I still think that this bit, in the context of the post, is odd. If either TV or yourself get lynched as scum, I'll be looking more intently at these posts.

Well, I'm satisfied with the responses. As I said, I was not particularly suspicious of you to begin with. It's a town tell that you responded anyhow.

[JDodge]

Shanba replaces Nirp.

I'll get you a vote count either tonight or tomorrow.

[Atticus]

...

unvote, vote: Atticus

Try again?

'Tis what I'm trying to do...

1. Why my case on TinVision is interesting, and
2. Why you won't vote for him?

1. Not interesting so much as... not boring, because it got a response.
2. Because I don't think he's scummy. Ech, not yet at least.

...
Also, atticus, how is this:

Ugh! I can't get a read on anybody! 'Tis frustrating! I've still got nothing for you guys.

different from this:

i've got no idea who could be mafia... so, lets leave me alone and discuss who else could be a scum

which warranted this?

Dusterhan... Tsk tsk tsk... You need to stop volunteering for things you can't do. Examples: answering questions, playing the game mafia.

While dusterhan's post implies that he would leave it up to the others to find mafia, mine says, "Hey, I'm sorry because even though I promised to start looking at players, I've failed to get anything I find conclusive."

I do apologize for stirring a false lead with that post, it was simply if anyone was wondering as to whether or not Atticus was ever going to do that analysis. Also, not to OMGUS or anything, but I find it interesting that Aimee would change her vote based on that simple post, without putting so much reason behind it as joost did for a mere FoS.

[Aimee]

...

unvote, vote: Atticus

Try again?

'Tis what I'm trying to do...

Really?

...
Also, atticus, how is this:

Ugh! I can't get a read on anybody! 'Tis frustrating! I've

different from this:

i've got no idea who could be mafia... so, lets leave me alone and discuss who else could be a scum

which warranted this?

Dusterhan... Tsk tsk tsk... You need to stop volunteering for things you can't do. Examples: answering questions, playing the game mafia.

While dusterhan's post implies that he would leave it up to the others to find mafia, mine says, "Hey, I'm sorry because even though I promised to start looking at players, I've failed to get anything I find conclusive."

I do apologize for stirring a false lead with that post, it was simply if anyone was wondering as to whether or not Atticus was ever going to do that analysis. Also, not to OMGUS or anything, but I find it interesting that Aimee would change her vote based on that simple post, without putting so much reason behind it as joost did for a mere FoS.

You are quite clearly lurking in plain sight. Please provide some content.

[Shanba]

Hi there peoples. Reading as I type (well not literally, but you get the idea).

[joost]

Welcome to the game Shanba

[Shanba]

Right, so I got all the way through the game, and I must say, it's an enjoyable read.

Vote: kabenon

,

FoS OpposedForce, Sephiroth

. Also get mildly scummy reads on Aimee and joost.

Start with kabenon. The first post of his I find scummy is post 4 (in view all posts by kabenon mode). It's a weird psuedo-lurky kinda post in which he brings up the possibility of a jester (which seems like a subtle defence of dusterhan) but winds up saying nothing really at all. It's a useless post which looks like contribution but isn't really.

His very next post reads as scummy too - there's the continued defence of dusterhan but there's also the fact that he puts "...yet" at the end of his post. I dislike this muchly. Why would a pro-town player ever need to qualify a read in this way?

Post 8, 9 and 10 both have similar themes: mild attacks that seem to be designed to put as many people under suspicion as possible. This is the last time he comments on someone other than dusterhan being scummy.

This is not the end of it, though. Looking through his posts there are a number of scummy themes.

I just think he is scummy, plain and simple.

Blame me for it if you will, but there it is

Really, though, in all honesty,

There you have it.

It's a lot of empty statements that try to make his points look more reasonable and more content filled than they actually are. It's also a whole lot of appeals to emotion. In general, an appeal to emotion is not scummy, however multiple appeals to emotion give the impression that he is simply trying to survive. This, combined with the lack of scumhunting, the generally unhelpful posts, the weak spraying of suspicion and defending of dusterhan early on makes him solidly the scummiest player in the game.

OpposedForce is a combination of weaker things. Some of Knuck's posts strike me as overly follow-y: in particular his post 64 caught my eye on my readthrough. (going by in game posts this time, as the context of the posts are important.) Then there's the general lurky feel I've had from the role all game - he very rarely seems to get involved with things. OpposedForce is similar, but a worse lurker.

Sephiroth is slightly different. Every time he posts, I get a reasonable vibe from what he is saying - he seems to be contributing actively, and hunting for scum. However, as soon as the pressure dies down off him again, he disappears. Early d1: he is contributing, get's attacked, defends himself then disappears. It's only when he comes under attack again, this time from ckd that he begins to contribute again. This is a type of behaviour I have often seen from scum (and in fact done as scum myself)

Aimee feels off because I don't think I've ever seen her play like this before. Generally, her playstyle consists of "post a huge analysis then disappear for ages". I've never seen her using one-liners as a playstyle. I'm watching her for now.

joost generally gives me pro-town vibes, he seems to be solidly scumhunting and generally contributing well. However, a couple of his early posts strike me the wrong way - particularly his post 4. He says he will keep voting for dusterhan - " At least until someone else is acting more scummy. " I used a near identical qualifier for my vote in my very first newbie game Newbie 297) when I was scum voting for my scumbuddy early day 1. If it weren't for the rest of his play, he would be my top suspect for this.

[-TinVision-]

I'll post something over the weekend, I expect, once I've finished moving into the new apartment.

I will say that you've brought an interesting perspective to the game. I need to read the last couple pages more thoroughly, but I found it interesting that I was never mentioned in your post, despite the heavy scrutiny that has been on me for a good portion of the game. If you're not in favor of the wagon, I'd like to hear why not.

P.S. Holy crap my brain is going to explode trying to keep track of who replaced whom.

[Shanba]

[quote="-TinVision-"
I will say that you've brought an interesting perspective to the game. I need to read the last couple pages more thoroughly, but I found it interesting that I was never mentioned in your post, despite the heavy scrutiny that has been on me for a good portion of the game. If you're not in favor of the wagon, I'd like to hear why not.
[/quote]
Mm. I'm not sold on the you wagon currently. I don't have a read on you. I think the arguments against you are somewhat weak, and I believe there are much better wagons currently. I think all 5 of the people I listed are scummier than you.

[Sephiroth]

Sephiroth is slightly different. Every time he posts, I get a reasonable vibe from what he is saying - he seems to be contributing actively, and hunting for scum. However, as soon as the pressure dies down off him again, he disappears.

Could you give me examples of time periods I was absent? I could probably provide reasons for it.

Early d1: he is contributing, get's attacked, defends himself then disappears.

As you said, I was contributing,

then

I was attacked, and forced to defend myself, and eventually leave. I was contributing beforehand. Kind of defeats your argument.

It's only when he comes under attack again, this time from ckd that he begins to contribute again. This is a type of behaviour I have often seen from scum (and in fact done as scum myself)

This is a meaningless coincidence. Correlation does not imply causation my friend. I had RL issues. Now I dont.

In addition, I mainly post mon-fri. I just checked, and you can too, only 1 of my 33 posts has come on a weekend, as I am very busy on the weekends. Right now I am about to start the load of work I have to do. With any luck I can finish my PBP's on Monday.

[Shanba]

OK, reading through Sephiroth's posts it's not as bad a pattern as it felt when reading through the thread, however, here are dates -
beginning of d1, Aug 30-Sep 3: Sephiroth makes a few posts. After that, he is attacked, and from Sep 3- Sep 6 Sephiroth makes several posts defending himself. After the heat dies down, he makes one or two posts a week (though some with good content) until Sep 24-Sep 27th where he talks about replacing the mod etc. Sep 28 he disappears until Oct 08 where he is on the defensive again (and continues to be). There's a marked dip in posting when he's not under attack, although I admit he was still posting useful content.

Sephiroth, interestingly although your second point would be right if I had represented the facts correctly, reading throuhg your posts I hadn't. You didn't start mass-posting until you were under pressure.

I agree, correlation does not imply causation. It's a patten of behaviour that's worth noting, however, because it's a pattern that scum are more likely to show than town (they have a motive for it, whereas town do not). It's quite possible you were overwhelmed by work, but it's also quite possible that you are scum primarily concerned with not being lynched. Either it's a nulltell or a scumtell, and we can't know which, but it's still suspicious to someone who doesn't know (i.e. anyone not you) what the truth is.

[Atticus]

...

You are quite clearly lurking in plain sight. Please provide some content.

I guess that counts as a reason.

Shanba - brings interesting points, and I think most of them are agreeable. Though he justifies some of his suspicions based on single things, which I do not like.

On the Sephiroth issue, I've never found him particularly scummy. Everything he does seems reasonable.

While I do not have time to read through people I find suspicious right now, I will by the end of the weekend.

[curiouskarmadog]

ok back from my weekend..will be getting to a post tomorrow to include a retort to Sephiroth and a read through what I missed to get me back up to speed.

[Atticus]

If needed

Unvote, vote: vampyrusddg

.

Who did he replace? Nekka-Lucifer.

Why do I suspect him?
A) NL only made roughly 2 posts worth of contentful information. While in that stage of the game I was not much better, I admit, I do find this suspicious. Also, he makes a post asking for someone to explain why dusterhan is under suspicion. When asked about it, he explained that he didn't find dh scummy. Later votes dusterhan with little explanation.

B) Vampyrusdog's outrageous post being suspicious of me and dusterhan. In it, he claims that I sent him 2 questions (no four) which asked him for things that gave him a cop-out. This depends on us both being scum and me using a clever tactic to get a dumb person to answer in the correct way. Is away for awhile. FoS's Sephiroth for suspecting kabenon.

Vampyrusddg seems noncommittal. N-L seemed absent. Not much to read, but what there is to read seems scummy.