Mini 520 - Triumvirate Mafia - ABANDONED

[Spider Jerusalem]

/confirm

[Spider Jerusalem]

random

vote: Miztef

for justice!

[Spider Jerusalem]

I have to agree with the general sentiment that claiming and how to interpret it is going to be somewhat of mess in this setup. I think we'll have to really avoid bandwagoning and try to be especially slow and methodical in our decision making.

Looking over the posts I don't see much to go on at this point, however I've noticed that TheNinthLayer appears to have not posted anything yet, not even a in thread confirmation post. This is more of a lurky not a clearly scummy thing but it's the first major oddity I noticed.

[Spider Jerusalem]

Hmm... still not much to go on, however I can come up with a few comments at least.

Unvote, Vote: Sir Tornado

Interesting that you get on SSF's case for dice voting but don't even mention me. Trying to distance from your scumbuddy early?

I actually think this approach supports his statement that he was only trying to make a point about the dice based voting. He had already posted about it before you dice voted, so there was no need to harp on it again.
He has stated that "Well, it isn't scummy, actually. I voted you to drill it into you that random voting using a dice is bad" where you = SSF in that sentance. So there seems little reason for him to target every dice voter.

You could certainly argue that using a vote like this isn't the wisest move, but he seems consistent about his reasoning and it occurred early enough in the game that I don't see any real harm, or any scummyness.

@Yuan Ti: a serious problem with your plan as I see it is that to my understanding the cop power could land on Mafia as well as Town. So we aren't just going to be able to trust every cop even if there is no counterclaim.

This I think is an overall important point that any of the powers can end up on any player, not just town. So we have to always keep that in mind when analyzing info that may come from the various roles.

Also

Unvote

my random vote isn't doing much at this point no need for it to be out there.

[Spider Jerusalem]

@MoS: I'm not sure how anything scummy can be determined by a lot of people unvoting from the random stage. A whole bunch of one vote here one vote there situations dosen't really get anything done. I think the best idea is to try and get peoples minds out of that stage and into a stage where a vote is placed for some actual reason even if there isn't much to go on. I'd like to hear though how you or anyone else who thinks we can would deduce any scum tells from it, perhaps I'm missing something.

@phate: I think that while it's never wrong to inject a little humor, I've been learning that posts such as your "translation" tend to distract people from what your actually trying to say. Which could be viewed as a tactic to confuse the town.

Not much to go on but I'm going to

FoS: Mastermind of Sin

because so far I find that he pushed something on some very fishy logic then after people disagreed dropped the I've put too much into this to do anymore line. However, we don't want to start bandwagoning over something so small, so I'd love to hear some of the more quiet give their points of view.

[Spider Jerusalem]

When I say translation, I think it's fairly apparent that I mean, "The following is my interpretation of the last post." If anyone is distracted or confused by that, they should speak the fuck up and ask me to clarify. I'm really not seeing that as a viable tactic to "confuse the town."

I agree that in your specific post there was nothing seriously misleading, and if my statement came off that way I'll clarify. I was trying to speak in a more general tone, largely because I felt you intended a clear response but I have seen posts done that way get muddied up very quickly. Perhaps it's just a difference in opinion but I think it's much clearer to the town as a whole if you avoid the use of witty devices.

Getting out of the random stage is good. However, I really don't like it when people just decide to say "the random stage is over", like it's some sort of boundary that can be defined, and you can just cut off all random voting at a specific point. I much prefer that people *do* something to get out of random voting, rather than just say it's over and do nothing.

For example, look at me. Instead of just saying "oh, random voting is done!", I actually did something, I made an attack on SirT, and I started a lot of serious discussion. That is how you end the random voting stage. It's bullshit to think you can just say it's over. Actions speak louder than words, my friend. Although in this case, words are your actions, I suppose.

I don't disagree with most of this. However, if you'll note your discussion with SirT started shortly before the large amount of unvotes. In my mind and perhaps in others, that discussion was worthy of the end of random voting whether we agreed with your stance or not. This in addition to the other discussion about claims gave us something in game to discuss and analyze.

Erm, I never said I was going to drop my argument against SirT. I said that I've done enough that I don't really feel like spearheading other arguments at this point in the game. Just because people disagreed with my point against SirT does not mean I think they're right. It's certainly not a strong tell, but it's something, imo.

I definitely didn't mean to say you thought people disagreeing with you were right, or that you were dropping your argument against SirT completely. Though I do think you may have been trying to change the topic. I could see how I was a little unclear though.
I meant that after people disagreed with your point about SirT that you dropped another topic and then backed out of the potential discussion. I thought your lack of an explanation as to why unvoting would be a scum tell as well as what appeared to be a lack of desire to participate in the discussion of that topic seemed a little scummy. It seemed it could be a way to redirect people from looking at your earlier argument against SirT much more and for you to be able to stay out of the new discussion from there on in.
I'll admit that all this is not a particularly strong tell either, but I'd still really like to have you explain how we could decipher a scum tell from a handfull of people unvoting once some minor discussion had started.

[Spider Jerusalem]

Looks like I picked an active time to go out of town for the weekend, I'll first clear up Phate's question about my name. It's a comic book character as pictured in my avatar, main character of Transmetropolitan if you're really interested.
Now on to real business.

@Phate 103: you snap back at me about saying you shouldn't use witty devices yet in the same breath say I agree to much. Seems like all I didn't just blandly agree with you after all. I explained what i didn't like about your post.

@miztef 104: In nothing that you quoted am I just blandly agreeing with anyone, I at least state why I agree and in fact analyzed and went after MoS more than anyone else I beleive. I tend to feel that if I want to keep someone talking on a productive discussion I have to agree with them when they make a solid point and retort with a clarification on my argument, or a counterpoint, as the situation demands. IMHO thats the best way to keep a discussion productive in the long term and avoid degenerating into a shouting match. I will freely admit however to being vote shy, especially with the complicated roles we have. I generally start by laying out my suspicion and seeing how people respond to it, the information I gain there will lead to my vote decision. My feeling is that too many votes based on a shaky case can cause actions that actually confuse the town rather than help it, I prefer to discuss for a while before that kind of pressure is exerted.

FlyingHawk, SJ, not to call the kettle black, but you guys are new here. And thus it might stand to reason that you'll make mistakes, especially in the area of keeping things hidden if you have them to hide. And it strikes me as interesting that while you've been quiet all game, you both fairly well jump to defend MoS. This might (indeed, probably) be nothing, but I think it's worth mentioning.

*stores away the possibility that there might be a link between flyinghawk, MoS, and SJ*

Ummm... Here I think you're just confused I've not said word one to defend Mastermind of Sin, in fact I actually went more in depth into why I thought his behavior seemed a little scummy than anyone else has. Please point me to any place where I defended him.

That aside, though, I see your point. Ok, let's drop the newbie angle, then - I thought it lent evidence to my point, but obviously not. The core of what I thought was interesting was that two relatively quiet players suddenly popped back up to defend MoS. Even if that turns out to be nothing, I thought it was worth noting.

Here you go again, I don't like to discourage casting out the net of suspicion even if it lands on me but you have to at least get your facts straight. I have never defended Mastermind of Sin. Consistently misrepresenting something like that seems to be a much bigger scum tell than anything.

In conclusion:
@phate: I'd like to hear an explanation on how you came to the conclusion that I have been defending MoS.

@miztef: I don't see how my arguments are any weaker than anyone else's and i think my argument against MoS was a fairly good one even if I choose a poor time to use the colloquial form of dropped and confused him a bit (that is using "dropped a topic" to mean presented a topic, sorry MoS that was poor form on my part to use that as a clarification).

[Spider Jerusalem]

The Mafia could be given the Cop, which there is an additional 25% chance of, and will give us no information.

My thoughts exactly. I think there is a big risk in going no lynch. If we no lynch and the cop power hits on the mafia, we basically start off day 2 worse that we started day one. Not only do we not have lynch results to lead us anywhere but we will have a mafia cop feeding us bad info.
This game setup does have the potential for an advantageous no lynch outcome so I don't see the original suggestion as that bad an idea. It is good to consider our options, but I do have to wonder as others have noted about the quick follow-up. This may have just been a knee-jerk reaction to what seemed like a good idea but I'm inclined to believe something more can be gleaned from it.

I'll note that spurgistan replaced on the 30th of October but didn't post again for over a week till this afternoon to join the no lynch wagon, and then I noticed the following part in italics. (emphasis mine)

Maybe a no-lynch isn't that bad at all, remember, if we lose one triumvirate, the power roles are all gone, as far as I understand the rules. IF that's mistaken, then disregard this post. If we lynch normal town today (which is the most likely result, as they should be the only ones not to claim trium) then the scum odds of hitting one of the trium goes from 1/9 to 1/8. Granted, the trium odds of hitting the scum are equal, for now, but at this stage of the game I would definitely say

protecting those of us in the triumvirate is more important than killing the scum.

Vote: No Lynch

I believe that could be considered a role claim right there, even after his only other post states how nice it is that he doesn't have to come in making crazy role-claims. It's possible that this was unintentional or he is a little confused but it sure seems a little odd to me. He seems to use the word trium earlier to mean both the triumvirate ("...then the scum odds of hitting one of the trium goes from 1/9 to 1/8.") and to refrence the whole town ("Granted, the trium odds of hitting the scum are equal...") so I can see it being a case of not being familiar with the concept of the triumverate (basically a group or set of three, most commonly in reference to certain periods during the roman empire). However, perhaps this is the early set up to back up some later claim, and if it is what can we make of it. The lack of any content from him besides this post makes it awfully hard to get a read on what this is.

[Spider Jerusalem]

Hey all, I'm going to be asking the mod to replace me, hate to have to do it but I'm completely overwhelmed with work for my classes right now and I don't see that getting better till mid December when the semester breaks. It was fun while it lasted.

For Mod: Please go ahead and replace me