Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!

[jerubbaal]

I think Mexal is making a very valid point here with Nym's post. When someone states an idea in the way that he did, hedging it very carefully with "well, this is probably stupid, but...," it lets one explore a certain agenda while still holding deniability. I think it's pretty well established that a massclaim would be a terrible move for the town at this point, even Nym admits this, but he does still throw the suggestion out. It seems likely to me that he was just thinking aloud, but couching the idea as he did does leave him the option to pursue it if he discovers that we, as a group, are biting on the idea.

In regards to this situation, my inclination is to believe that Nym simply didn't think the idea all the way through before he expressed it, but it is a possibility that the gesture was an attempt to feel out the group's response to the idea of a massclaim (which would be bad for the town at this point), knowing that it was not a pro-town idea.

You cannot speak irresponsibly and expect your actions to be justified by a simple, "well, this is probably stupid," or, "well, this is just a gut feeling" (not used here so much so far, but used a lot, and I hate it and will not accept it).

PS, not having read the entirety of the Korlash/Mexal debate as closely as I should have yet, I get the impression that you both are really having different conversations. To me, it sounds like little more than a shouting match at the moment. Both of you need to chill and present your arguments precisely and briefly, because I for one am not following at the moment (and I really don't think you're following each other).

[Korlash]

=D I like to steal rebuttals. It makes me feel special ;P

Well this is just a gut feeling but... I don't think I need to rehash my argument seeing as two other people said it themselves. (Ok Nym didn't actually say it.. but he

actually said it

... huh... that came out wrong... Ok he didn't say my argument, but he said the actual thing I was arguing about... Ok that came out better.. not as funny... but ok.)

As for me and Mexal, if you agree with him, I see no point in trying to explain things with you as you are already blind and/or unable to understand simple sentences. (Much like me actually XD)

You cannot speak irresponsibly and expect your actions to be justified by a simple, "well, this is probably stupid," or, "well, this is just a gut feeling"

His actions were not justified by a simple "whatever you said" they were justified by a question posed at him by a player you classified as "Decent scum hunting."

And:

distortion of arguments and actions is always bad,

Does anyone else see this as funny? I do... I mean he pretty much admitted what he just did was a bad thing, and I think bad things are more or less not good for town.(Jer, if you want to know what I am talking about here read either mine or oEJo's post in regards to what Mexal did. If you still cannot see why you and Mexal are wrong then I will try, and I do use the term lightly, to explain it to you. And you know how fun my posts are )

[Jitsu]

Well, this has been an interesting turn of events, hasn't it? When I first read Mexal's posts, I was offended at him for attacking me, but then I decided to reread with an open mind and a fresh perspective after considering his comments, like I promised. The Mexal voters out there will not like this, but it is in the town's interest to consider all theories and not look at things from only one side. So here is my analysis on Mexal's counterpoints.

Jerubbaal kind of beat me to the punch a bit, but it took a while to create this post.

I've also got a lot of questions for people, in light of my reread.

@Mexal

I do agree that Sudo_Nym should never have even mentioned his idea about a massclaim. He should have guessed that someone would call him on his idea. It was a horrible idea for all the reasons people stated. I even credited you for that.

To answer your questions, I honestly didn't consider the case that you had read the post carefully and disregarded the disclaimers. In retrospect, I should have, given that I even mentioned the possibility that Sudo_Nym's massclaim idea was not completely innocent. I think I see where you are going with your counterpoint, though. Sudo either made a really bad slip (which he realized right away), or he totally played us by testing the waters for a horrible massclaim, and then using the disclaimers to cast suspicion on you.

At this point, I can't be sure if it was an honest mistake on Sudo's part, or if he was really trying to slide one in there. Given how most of us seem to have only a few weeks or months of experience, it could well have been a newbie mistake, but you did not seem to seriously consider that possibility. You seem pretty sure that he was not making a casual mistake -- what made you so sure?

I think I would have felt less suspicious of you if you had objected to the massclaim without voting immediately, and then saved your vote for today when you returned so that you could explain your reasons a little better. Also, you seemed to take Sudo's massclaim idea a lot more seriously than did everyone else. Even with several newbies in the game, I think it the chances were nil that it was ever gonna fly (it only takes one veteran player to explain why it is so bad), so your quick and very brief objection coupled with a vote without much an explanation did look somewhat scummy to me.

If you have been really trying to help the town by potentially exposing Sudo, I think you would have earned a lot more town points if you had focused more on presenting the "Sudo is playing us" theory in a less antagonistic way than counterattacking those who attacked you (myself included).

Also, it seems clear to me that Miztef did try to defend you in post 71. Miztef has hardly been racking up townie points this game, so I still really wonder why he so quickly jumped to your defense. He seemed genuinely annoyed at the rest of us who attacked you. From your posts after that, particularly your response to Anata's post, you seem to have suspicions on Miztef also. Why did you not attempt to distance yourself from Miztef's comments defending you in that post or when I raised the theory of you two as a scumpair? I would never have thought to consider the two of you as a scumpair before his post 71.

It's likely that one of you and Sudo_Nym is scum and the other is not, but I don't know who to believe at this point. I'm not ready to completely take my suspicion off of you at this point, but you've raised enough doubt for me to back off and take a more neutral stance on you and Sudo_nym. I am not throwing my support behind you; I am simply acknowledging that your counterpoint is plausible. It is always best for the town to consider all possibilities.

If you can make a stronger case against Sudo_Nym, I'd like to hear it.


@Sudo_Nym

I have some questions for you also, to give you a chance to clarify things. What made you think of the massclaim idea originally? Did you had a previous game where a very early massclaim was beneficial to the town? If you really did think it was a stupid idea as you said, why did you even mention it to begin with? Were you aware that even mentioning a mass claim on Day 1 is a really bad idea in a game of this size?


@Miztef

Post 36:

no real reason for 3rd vote, just decided to get the game moving forward. Seems to be working

Post 49:

We do need a fourth vote sometime soon, or someone to slip up badly. (preferably scum)

Post 58:

However, we do need to start picking out the first candidates for lynch, and I think I'll unvote vote: Korlash

Post 63:

Right now, I think I'm gonna lay off pushing any wagons very hard, we need a bit more activity from other players.

Post 84:

I wouldn't mind changing my vote at this time, just have no one to change it to. I am starting to get the impression korlash is town, but only slightly, so I think I'll stick to it until my scumdar picks up something good.

Post 103:

This game is going crazy fast in my opinion, even for my impatient self. That's why I feel it should be slowed down slightly. I'm not talking about everyone lurking or anything like that, just a little more thought to things, instead of super fast accusations on many people.

I find this sequence highly suspicious. You had a consistent stance that you wanted to get the game moving since the game began, but after post 58, you did a complete 180 a mere FIVE POSTS LATER in post 63! Why?

Between posts 58 and 103, you have run the entire gamut of patience and impatience here. To be honest, I don't think the game is going crazy fast (in terms of moving toward a lynch). Sure, accusations have been flying, but even with that, the players have been pretty good at not voting irresponsibly. In fact, the highest anyone has been so far in this game is L-3, and YOU were the one that put Korlash there. The truth is that there have not been a lot of votes cast in comparison to other games. Actually we have been able to extract good information from people without a lot of votes, which is quite remarkable and good town play. I've seen too many games that random vote for a while, then get someone up to L-2 without a great reason, which compels a claim. The more cautious style of play in this game is greatly benefiting the town, IMHO.

Also, as others have said, you may not have wanted to push the wagons further, but you STILL have your vote on Korlash, even though you say you are starting to think he is town! If you feel that he is at all more likely to be town than scum, it is a horrible play to keep a vote on him past the random stage. You've got whatever reaction you were going to get from him, and I hardly think you are going to get more information by keeping your vote on him.

Do you still feel that Korlash is more scummy than anyone else in this game? If Korlash really is scum and is screwing up that bad, why not leave the "obvious" scum Korlash until day 2 and try to vote for someone that will give us much more information. What would you expect to learn about the other players if Korlash were lynched? If Korlash is giving you a slightly townie vibe, then who are your candidates for scum??



@Mod

I Unvoted for Abstact in post 34. Can you fix the vote count please?

[Mexal]

I swear, talking to some of you is like talking to a wall.

Because he was asked, by another player (a possilbe towny) to explain his other ideas. When you are asked to do something and do not do it then you look a little scummy. So I find it hard to imagine why you keep missing this very important issue here.

Why was he asked? Because he infered he had a more efficient way of finding scum. Did you not read this part of my posts? Selective reading is a great thing but it doesn't help your argument. While I might not include everything that I read in my posts, I do read it all and do weight it when I make an argument. The fact that you keep overlooking the fact that sudo_nym made a statement that BEGGED people to ask him what his ideas are is really worrying me. There isn't one person here who wouldn't have asked someone what they were talking about after they make a statement claiming they know more efficient ways of finding scum.

actually the fact that you don;t believe him is good. The fact that you are ignoring the fact he originally thought the idea bad enough not to say and only brought it up BECAUSE HE WAS ASKED is what makes your reason invalid. Certain situations have certain limits to them, such as when you are on vacation I can easily see you making a mistake and overlooking things, thus I am more inclined to let a few mistakes pass by. Just like when you are forced to say something I do not hold my personally feelings on if I think it was a good or bad idea as the basis for my vote. I hold only how scummy/town it appears to be, and yes I add disclaimers into the mix for this.

See above. This is the last time I will even bother with this. If you can't get it now, then seriously, I'm wasting my time.

I wouldn't say so much I am arguing against people who are voting for people, i am more about arguing over the effectiveness of said vote. By all means vote vote vote... But do not base your strategy on a blind, reasonless vote... (that is my argument, not my statement towards you. I am not trying to say your vote is blind/reasonless.)

Blind, reasonless? Do you read a single word that I say? At all? I swear to god, talking to you is like talking to a one trick pony. You read what you want to read, state what you want to state and ignore everything else that was said. I pointed out my reasons in like 5 posts. The fact that you've ignored them and keep defending sudo is bothering the hell out of me.

You keep missing the fact he A) Did not originally say it, and B) he said it was a bad idea and instead are pushing that he is trying to in a sense hide behind a false disclaimer so he can jump one way or the other. He is not saying a massclaim is good, he is not lobbying for a massclaim, he is not trying to judge our reaction, he is merely answering a question of an idea he had in his head. You seem to be adamant that he is some massclaim wanting mafia that is trying to hide behind a disclaimer. I'm all for getting info from people but I feel like you are pulling a whole lot of unnecessary suspicion on yourself because you seem to be only focusing on your opinions and not what he actually said.

How do you know what is going on in his head? Seriously? Are you sitting there talking to him offline trying to figure out how to defend him? Because I don't know what's going on in his head. I can only post the way I see it. You, for some reason, are sudo_nym's conscious or something. You know for a fact he wasn't trying to do anything devious. You know for a fact EXACTLY what he was trying to do. How? You can say it's obvious, but it's not. If you think that everything that people say is meant exactly how they say it then you have NO BUSINESS playing this game and definitely no business arguing with me over it.

Mexal, let me point something out.

I can think of a few things that would be more efficient, but they rely on people telling the truth (not something that's likely to happen).

He implies that he has an idea, however, it is moot, because the scumbags are going to lie, and so are the powerroles, because it wouldn't benefit them to tell the truth.

Then we have...

Really? I'd like to know what you've got in mind.

He was called out on it. To NOT say his silly idea right now would obviously be scummy, and he'd be lynched more or less on the spot.

So he explains his mass claim idea, explains WHY it won't work, and why no one is gonna do it... yet... you still think he's suggesting it. He wasn't.

What the hell is your problem? Let it go. Sudo obviously wasn't suggesting a massclaim.

Vote:Mexal

I swear to god, the stupidity on this thread is monumental. Read all my posts above. I KNOW HE WAS ASKED!!! Do you know why he was asked? Because he TOLD EVERYONE THAT HE HAD MORE EFFICIENT IDEAS! Do people not read my posts? Do people not even read their own posts? My frustration level is through the roof right now.

And seriously, what is my problem? What kind of question is that? Because I find something potentially harmful to the town, I have a problem? Because I'm arguing with people who don't bother to read a single word I say, I have a problem? Good lord man.

PS, not having read the entirety of the Korlash/Mexal debate as closely as I should have yet, I get the impression that you both are really having different conversations. To me, it sounds like little more than a shouting match at the moment. Both of you need to chill and present your arguments precisely and briefly, because I for one am not following at the moment (and I really don't think you're following each other).

We're having the same conversation. Unfortunately though, people seem to miss the parts of my posts they don't want to read so they continually make the same argument against me which is in defense of sudo_nym's idea. I know exactly what he's saying.

1. Sudo_nym put up disclaimers therefore it's ok to post a wild idea that's decidedly anti-town.
2. Sudo_nym told everyone what his idea was because he was asked.
3. Sudo_nym wasn't possibly thinking about manipulating us, or throwing out an idea to see if people latch onto it because he made disclaimers before hand and was asked to post it.

That's the defense and it's a defense I've ripped apart several times, yet people don't read those parts of my posts and automatically fall back to 1, 2, and 3. The best part is, it's not even sudo_nym doing the defending but his lackies who cannot possibly know what he was thinking unless they're partners. Now I'm not saying they are, but come on. How can Korlash know that Sudo_Nym was completely honest about his comments? How can oJEo defend him and even quote the post where he implies he has ideas yet disregard the idea he actually posted?

Well, this has been an interesting turn of events, hasn't it? When I first read Mexal's posts, I was offended at him for attacking me, but then I decided to reread with an open mind and a fresh perspective after considering his comments, like I promised. The Mexal voters out there will not like this, but it is in the town's interest to consider all theories and not look at things from only one side. So here is my analysis on Mexal's counterpoints.

Don't ever get offended. It's not personal. I will attack you. I will attack everyone. I'm a very aggressive player and it's amazing what you can find out when you exert the right amount of pressure. Your posts were misleading, I called you out on it.

At this point, I can't be sure if it was an honest mistake on Sudo's part, or if he was really trying to slide one in there. Given how most of us seem to have only a few weeks or months of experience, it could well have been a newbie mistake, but you did not seem to seriously consider that possibility. You seem pretty sure that he was not making a casual mistake -- what made you so sure?

I'm not sure. There are 2 reasons to do what I did.

1. To see the reaction of Sudo_Nym. And I saw it. He voted me right back. That's somewhat telling in itself. I don't like retalliation votes like that. Maybe if he found something to use against me, sure, but too immediately OMGUS me? It's suspicious. His original action might have been an innocent mistake but his reaction was very telling.

2. The reactions of others. It's amazing how Korlash came to his defense and came to his defense hard. It's also amazing how Korlash keeps ignoring the fact that the whole situation could have been engineered. It's like he can't fathom someone being subtle in this game.

I think I would have felt less suspicious of you if you had objected to the massclaim without voting immediately, and then saved your vote for today when you returned so that you could explain your reasons a little better. Also, you seemed to take Sudo's massclaim idea a lot more seriously than did everyone else. Even with several newbies in the game, I think it the chances were nil that it was ever gonna fly (it only takes one veteran player to explain why it is so bad), so your quick and very brief objection coupled with a vote without much an explanation did look somewhat scummy to me.

It's early in the game. People put down joke votes. You have to start the discussion somewhere and I wasn't going to be around to actually participate. A vote with a justification was the best I could do with the limited amount of time I had and to be honest, it was a good thing to do. You don't not vote when you point something out like that, especially when there are no votes on him. Votes put pressure. Votes get reactions. Votes start wagons. To just post my disagreement with it would understate how I felt about the idea.

If you have been really trying to help the town by potentially exposing Sudo, I think you would have earned a lot more town points if you had focused more on presenting the "Sudo is playing us" theory in a less antagonistic way than counterattacking those who attacked you (myself included).

I attacked you because your entire section in regards to me was misleading. You made assumptions that were wrong then drew up two scenarios based on those assumptions without leaving room for there to be other reasons/causes for my posts. You deserved to be attacked.

Also, it seems clear to me that Miztef did try to defend you in post 71. Miztef has hardly been racking up townie points this game, so I still really wonder why he so quickly jumped to your defense. He seemed genuinely annoyed at the rest of us who attacked you. From your posts after that, particularly your response to Anata's post, you seem to have suspicions on Miztef also. Why did you not attempt to distance yourself from Miztef's comments defending you in that post or when I raised the theory of you two as a scumpair? I would never have thought to consider the two of you as a scumpair before his post 71.

Why would I distance myself from Miztef? Was Miztef's "defense" of me any stronger than Korlash's defense of Sudo_Nym? I think not. He was merely pointing out that I was on vacation and that could be the reason for my misread that everyone seemed to be saying I was making. The fact of the matter was he didn't defend me because I didn't misread. Of course you wouldn't have thought of us as a scum pair, I was on vacation so I hadn't posted yet.

It's likely that one of you and Sudo_Nym is scum and the other is not, but I don't know who to believe at this point. I'm not ready to completely take my suspicion off of you at this point, but you've raised enough doubt for me to back off and take a more neutral stance on you and Sudo_nym. I am not throwing my support behind you; I am simply acknowledging that your counterpoint is plausible. It is always best for the town to consider all possibilities.

If you can make a stronger case against Sudo_Nym, I'd like to hear it.

How can I make a stronger post against someone when they've posted twice since I voted...once to OMGUS me and the other to say people are stealing his defenses?

[Miztef]

Man, I always feel like I'm falling behind in this game, so many posts.

I only skimmed, so please don't codemn me if I missed information:

@Jitsu: about the quote wall you made for me, I suppose it is inconsistent, but honestly, that's just me switching my mind about what I think should be happening, It's still not very clear in my mind in the first place. I do agree that the game is going well though.


You asked me to switch my scum vote as well, if I don't think korlash is scum anymore. (something along those lines at least) Since my suspicions of everyone at this time are low, I think I'll have to just

unvote

until I get some time to reread and evaluate the game so far. I have 2 midterms today, so I don't think I'll get it done till tomorrow or later

[Mexal]

Ok, now that I'm at work, I've had a little time to review what I've said. I still think it's all valid.

That being said, I'm going to back off it for the moment and take a peak at some other people in an effort to avoid running around in circles all day.

[Korlash]

Wow I really hate when someone answers something in a post, then later on answers another thing with "Look at my above answer. Why do people keep asking me this? blah blah blah." in the same dang post. what? are we suppose to read your post long before you post it, yet alone write it? I mean talk about stupidity.

You read what you want to read,state what you want to state and ignore everything else that was said.

I could say the same about you. The fact that you read what he did as a post to judge how effective a massclaim would be, and not just a stupid idea like he said it was means you would rather create semi-likely scenarios instead of accepting what I saw as a perfectly good explanation/reason. People lie, yeah, so it is not always good to trust what they say. But to throw out an explanation/reason and assume what someone did is scummy is well... a bit anti-town in my opinion. It's basically saying that no matter how I answer you post you are going to come back at me with some type of attack that goes against all my reasoning. Thats great. Totally fool proof plan there Sherlock.

I will admit I tend to think the best of people. Thats not always bad, but not always good either. So I can see how I could be missing a valid point from your side of things. I still don't why you would bring that up as a reason for a vote, but whatever.

And dang... I just read your last one directed at me... Damn man are you that much of an idiot? I am just posting how I read it too, and I read it a hell of a lot differently then you did. Logically I know a massclaim is stupid, thus when someone says "This is a stupid idea but... massclaim?" I tend to see they were telling the truth. Whether or not he was trying to judge a massclaim doesn't matter. That has an equal chance of being a mafia ploy AND a town plan, assuming he is mafia for that means you cannot see both sides. It's pretty obvious no one else is supporting the idea so I have no fear in it coming to fruition. So yeah, I tend to defend him for it. Mostly because I did not want to see a townie (In this case you) come in and attack him with a stupid argument and have another person (In this case me ><) constantly hound you over it.

Also if you are not prepared to argue your points to their full extent every single post you are in the wrong game pal. Stop thinking you know everything there is about who should play and how they should play. Unless you " know what is going on in my head" Don't you dare tell me how to play this game.

That over:
@Jitsu: No questions for me? I feel left out...

[Mexal]

Alright. I said I'd move on but I just can't.

Wow I really hate when someone answers something in a post, then later on answers another thing with "Look at my above answer. Why do people keep asking me this? blah blah blah." in the same dang post. what? are we suppose to read your post long before you post it, yet alone write it? I mean talk about stupidity.

Uh, I was pointing toward my previous post. My answer was there to that question. Why should I have to rewrite everything I said twice? It's not so hard to read the post before, get the answer, then know it when it's addressed in the following post.

I could say the same about you. The fact that you read what he did as a post to judge how effective a massclaim would be, and not just a stupid idea like he said it was means you would rather create semi-likely scenarios instead of accepting what I saw as a perfectly good explanation/reason. People lie, yeah, so it is not always good to trust what they say. But to throw out an explanation/reason and assume what someone did is scummy is well... a bit anti-town in my opinion. It's basically saying that no matter how I answer you post you are going to come back at me with some type of attack that goes against all my reasoning. Thats great. Totally fool proof plan there Sherlock.

How long have you been playing this game? I mean seriously. The idea of a massclaim is anti-town. This has been pointed out several times. So when someone makes a suggestion that is anti-town, isn't it smart of the town people to question it? I assume people are scummy when they say scummy things. A mass claim is not pro-town. So why should I assume the person suggesting it is pro-town? That makes no sense.

I honestly don't get what you're saying. How do people figure out the scum in this game? They read into the actions they do and make a case based on them. They point out how the action is anti-town then post about it. What exactly did I do that's different then that? I want to know exactly how you plan on finding scum if you don't actually acknowledge anti-town things as possibly coming from a scum. Are you just going to hope you randomly stumble on top of one? I mean, do you think one is just going to admit that they're scum? If not, then what is your plan on finding one because the most obvious way, especially on day 1, is to take something that's anti-town, pressure the person, see his reaction and judge who defends him and why. It's day 1 for fucks sake. I don't exactly know what your goal is here but it's not scum-hunting.

I will admit I tend to think the best of people. Thats not always bad, but not always good either. So I can see how I could be missing a valid point from your side of things. I still don't why you would bring that up as a reason for a vote, but whatever.

Here's a mafia lesson for you: don't think the best of players. People lie, manipulate and attempt to win the game. There should be 3 scum out there so right now meaning there are 3 people manipulating you right this second. Don't think the best of everyone, think of everyone as guilty and clear them based on their actions.

And dang... I just read your last one directed at me... Damn man are you that much of an idiot? I am just posting how I read it too, and I read it a hell of a lot differently then you did. Logically I know a massclaim is stupid, thus when someone says "This is a stupid idea but... massclaim?" I tend to see they were telling the truth. Whether or not he was trying to judge a massclaim doesn't matter. That has an equal chance of being a mafia ploy AND a town plan, assuming he is mafia for that means you cannot see both sides. It's pretty obvious no one else is supporting the idea so I have no fear in it coming to fruition. So yeah, I tend to defend him for it. Mostly because I did not want to see a townie (In this case you) come in and attack him with a stupid argument and have another person (In this case me ><) constantly hound you over it.

This makes no sense to me. If you logically know that a mass claim is stupid, then why exactly would you accept when someone puts out a stupid idea, even if they admit before hand that it is stupid? What happens if people agreed with him? I mean, you did. You said you liked the idea. What would have happened had some other newbie said the same thing and then started a mass claim? Who benefits from that? You don't get it. Scum try to manipulate events that help them and hurt the town. They don't do it in an incredibly obvious way. They're subtle and the sooner you realize that, the better you might get at this game.

I understand that the move could have been innocent. People make innocent mistakes all the time. But neither you nor I should assume that someone who makes an anti-town post should just be making an innocent mistake. You make that assumption and you lose. It's safer to question it, pressure the person and see how he reacts. And I did see how he reacted. He's made 2 posts since my vote. One to OMGUS me which is a SCUMMY reaction and the 2nd to say others are stealing his defense. He's said nothing about the current situation, nothing about other people in this game. Don't you find that strange? All this pressure and he's done nothing to alleviate it because he has you championing his cause. You are a detriment to the town because you don't give him the opportunity to answer for himself.

Also if you are not prepared to argue your points to their full extent every single post you are in the wrong game pal. Stop thinking you know everything there is about who should play and how they should play. Unless you " know what is going on in my head" Don't you dare tell me how to play this game.

I shouldn't have to argue the same exact point in every single post. It's repetitive and unnecessary. If I say something in the previous post, it should still stand in the following post. I don't plan to repeat myself often just because you can't understand a single word I'm saying.

[Jitsu]

Don't ever get offended. It's not personal. I will attack you. I will attack everyone. I'm a very aggressive player and it's amazing what you can find out when you exert the right amount of pressure. Your posts were misleading, I called you out on it.

Yeah, "offended" isn't the right word -- I really need to stop posting at 3 am my time. I really didn't take it personally. I know it's just a game. I suppose I was more shocked than anything.

My frustration level is through the roof right now.

I understand this, but if you are innocent, it's in the town's best interest if you can calm down so that we can get a truer read on you. A highly frustrated person almost always looks somewhat scummy, regardless of what the truth is.

Let's suppose for a moment that you are indeed telling the truth and Sudo_Nym is scum. If that were true, don't you think Sudo_Nym did a pretty good job of introducing the massclaim idea in a subtle and believable way that (us) newbies could accept? So when you come storming in, claiming to see through his lies and acting so aggressively, the newbies are either stuck trying to figure out who to believe, or are latching onto your frustration instead of seeing the bigger picture. Of course, you would naturally be frustrated because you see the truth and can't get anyone else to see they are being played.

If that is what has happened, the picture is not as bleak as it appears. At the very least, I am understanding your argument and am now taking them seriously, even if I'm not in your corner at the moment. And Jerubbaal seems to be considering your points also.

@Miztef:

About the quote wall you made for me, I suppose it is inconsistent, but honestly, that's just me switching my mind about what I think should be happening, It's still not very clear in my mind in the first place. I do agree that the game is going well though.

Okay, so what was it that made you change your mind between posts 58 and 63? I can't see anything obvious that happened in thread to cause that, and your shift was a pretty dramatic one in a short amount of time.

@Korlash:

Yes, I do want to ask you some things, but I need time to sort through what has been said, and to reread the posts involving you. I wanted to get my comments posted on Mexal and Miztef first, because that seems to be the current hot button topic.

I also want to reread to try to get reads on some of the other players. I've been focusing so much on the Mexal/Sudo_Nym/Miztef angle that I haven't been keeping up with reads on the other players, and I want to do that.

[Jitsu]

Ugh, the last sentence of my previous post should not be a quote.

[Mexal]

I understand this, but if you are innocent, it's in the town's best interest if you can calm down so that we can get a truer read on you. A highly frustrated person almost always looks somewhat scummy, regardless of what the truth is.

Not necessarily. It's in the best interest for the town to find scum. If I do it based on an aggressive playstyle, then it's still in the best interest of the town. Being frustrated does not equal scum. I mean, could you honestly create a case against me right this second? I think you have a fairly good read on me and to be honest, it's not my concern to dictate my play in order to help you read me. I'll answer your questions if you ask them. I'll defend myself if accused. And I'll actively try to find scum by my methods. If you can't get a read from me based on that, then I'm not really sure how to help you.

Let's suppose for a moment that you are indeed telling the truth and Sudo_Nym is scum. If that were true, don't you think Sudo_Nym did a pretty good job of introducing the massclaim idea in a subtle and believable way that (us) newbies could accept? So when you come storming in, claiming to see through his lies and acting so aggressively, the newbies are either stuck trying to figure out who to believe, or are latching onto your frustration instead of seeing the bigger picture. Of course, you would naturally be frustrated because you see the truth and can't get anyone else to see they are being played.

This isn't about truth. It's about suspicions. I don't know the truth. I know what I suspect. I know what I read and I know how he reacted. It's up to you to see if what I say is plausible and then decide for yourself. I can't dictate what you see, how you play but I can try to point out things that I find bad and put pressure on those people. Understand that reactions are as big a tell as the thing they originally said and I think I was robbed of that defense/reaction by Korlash. I saw enough though to warrant my suspicions.

That being said, I'm not entirely focused there. I will look elsewhere. I don't get tunnel-visioned unless I'm 100% sure I'm right and in this situation, I'm not. It's day 1 and it's impossible to be positive but to me, it's the best thing I've seen. That and your accusations of Miztef. Those have merit as well.

[Jitsu]

I think you have a fairly good read on me

Yes, I think so. I hope it's the right one.

I'm still trying to calibrate my scumdar, as it's fresh out of the box. It's even still got that "new scumdar smell".

[jerubbaal]

We seem to be getting past the random vote stage, so I feel my first vote is somewhat out of place.

Unvote

.

I think this discussion has been useful regarding all the parties involved, but I still think that there are some voices that really need to be heard, in particular Sudo_Nym. The only thing we've heard from him was OMGUS regarding this whole thing. I don't know if he's intentionally lurking now, or just not on recently, but I think a bit of pressure on him is appropriate.

Vote: Sudo_Nym

[Jitsu]

Sudo_Nym's last post was Monday night. I also am interested in what he has to say.

I am also interested in CKD and anata's thoughts on the recent turn of events.

And as for Jayalay and GunslingerKB, I would welcome a prod on them if we don't hear from them in a day or two.

[Miztef]

alright, my turnabout from 58 - 63...

My thought pattern is basically that I went a little too hard on korlash, and was telling everyone that I'm gonna slow down on my actual evidence/case building until I actually get more substantial material. I suppose it could be seen as me trying to correct a mistake.

[jerubbaal]

I thought it was time to do a comprehensive post, so I hope all of this is still relevant by the time it goes up.

Abstract Actuary - Next to nothing, only a "gut feeling" on me (I've already mentioned how little I trust gut feelings, it's so easy to say anything and pass it off as a gut feeling). Really need more interaction w/ the discussion from him.

Anata112 - Again, very little. She claims to be more of a passive observer, which is not a position I trust. If you hold yourself aloof, we have no chance to evaluate your motivations and you add nothing to the discussion. She does eventually post a look at Miztef, but it's only reiterating basic stuff that's already been said. Need more.

curiouskarmadog - Has posted a fairly reasonable amount regarding the contradictions in Miztef's posts. Good, fairly accurate reading, little to criticize. Only real possible criticism is the tunnel vision on Miztef, who is the easy target right now. I guess I'd just like to hear more (this is sounding like a mantra).

GunslingerKB - Random vote only, Need more. I know participation is down over the weekend, but if some of these people don't stop lurking, I'm going to start calling them out.

Jayalay - Only thing so far is a direction question. Good, but, again, need more. Dirty lurkers.

jitsu - Did the an early (mostly) comprehensive review, which I respect, and seems to be considering most arguments well. He does make some logical fallacies though in more recent arguments which stand out to me.

It's likely that one of you and Sudo_Nym is scum and the other is not, but I don't know who to believe at this point.

This is a false either/or. I see no reason to believe that this argument isn't simply between two townies over a misunderstanding, or similarly between two scum attempting to bus each other. By locking the debate into a false dichotomy like this, you limit the options for us to consider and lock us into potentially misleading conclusions.

Let's suppose for a moment that you are indeed telling the truth and Sudo_Nym is scum.

This one is a more severe fallacy. Mexal is not claiming Nym is scum, he is claiming a suspicion that you all failed to acknowledge, that Nym's suggestions might have been meant to test the waters for the idea of a massclaim (If I am reading you right, Mexal). You are putting words in his mouth, and I become very suspicious when people do that in order to discredit an argument. Mexal addressed this fallacy in his last post, but I think it bugs me more than it did him. These fallacies are not huge deals, and not really even as big as those committed by other players, such as Korlash, but jitsu has shown himself to be a careful and perceptive reader. I am less inclined to believe that fallacies such as these are mistakes rather than intentional. I'm not screaming scum or anything, just saying that distortion is very suspect, especially from players who seem to be perceptive.

Korlash - Seems to be somewhat confused in general, strikes me as one of those players who just don't get it. Those kinda of players are really dangerous as it's very easy to pass off their mistakes simply as mistakes, not necessarily as tells. Spent quite a bit of time early game complaining about pressure votes, and lately has been defending Nym. I really don't think he ever quite "got" Mexal's point in the whole shouting match.

Mexal - You seem like an angry person to me, but your scumhunting has been very solid and your arguments coherent and valid. Still I think your frustration has gotten the better of you occasionally. A large volume of your posts are "don't you get it" or "didn't you read what I said" or some such. It's pretty clear some people are not getting what you are saying, i just get really tired of reading through all of the idiot-thrashing in order to get to your content, which is usually pretty good.

Miztef - A lot's been said about him, and I don't feel the need to restate it all. He was impatient in the early game, and started to cry for it to slow down once he took some heat. He even unvoted. Any way you cut it, impatience is scummy and inconsistency is scummy. Just because you are scummy does not mean you are scum, but you're at the top of my suspicious list right now.

oEJo - Infrequent poster, but some content. Posts a comprehensive list (props), but jumps on the swing-back Mexal wagon. Another one who doesn't really seem to acknowledge Mexal's point. Maybe a misread, but a hasty vote nonetheless.

Sudo_Nym - Expresses idea for a massclaim, OMGUS's Mexal, and says everybody else defended him well enough. He really needs to enter this conversation and speak for himself.

I thought it was important to expand our vision, as we've been focusing mainly on a few people for a while now. We need to hear from those lurkers. I think we're developing a reasonable picture of what's going on, but it's still incomplete with so many people missing.

[Mexal]

Mexal - You seem like an angry person to me, but your scumhunting has been very solid and your arguments coherent and valid. Still I think your frustration has gotten the better of you occasionally. A large volume of your posts are "don't you get it" or "didn't you read what I said" or some such. It's pretty clear some people are not getting what you are saying, i just get really tired of reading through all of the idiot-thrashing in order to get to your content, which is usually pretty good.

Lol. I'm not an angry person...actually pretty far from it. I just get frustrated when I have to say the same thing over and over again. You would be frustrated as well. I understand what you are saying in regards to my posts. That's the problem when it's directed to a single person. Everyone should read it, but my posts have been in direct response to Korlash so it's hard for me to not try to get the point across. I'm done with it though. It's getting rather pointless and I think people will get my point if they want to get my point.

I noticed the fallacies by Jitsu. I haven't figured out what to make of them yet. That isn't the first time he's misrepresented a situation. He did it earlier when he interpreted my post and gave two scenarios in which I would make the post, both of which were false and both of which painted the situation in a different light then it was. Then he was "surprised" I attacked him. I don't know. For now, he's trying and for that, I'll give him a pass but I did notice them and I have pointed them out.

I would like to hear from everyone else on that list as well. I get tired of lurkers real fast.

[curiouskarmadog]

Sudo_Nym's last post was Monday night. I also am interested in what he has to say.

I am also interested in CKD and anata's thoughts on the recent turn of events.

And as for Jayalay and GunslingerKB, I would welcome a prod on them if we don't hear from them in a day or two.

is there an event in particular you want my thoughts on, still reading these meaty posts

[curiouskarmadog]

alright, my turnabout from 58 - 63...

My thought pattern is basically that I went a little too hard on korlash, and was telling everyone that I'm gonna slow down on my actual evidence/case building until I actually get more substantial material. I suppose it could be seen as me trying to correct a mistake.

so are you being cautious?

[Miztef]

@karmadog: lol, trying to use my "supposedly" circular logic against me? It's not being more cautious, it's correcting a mistake (somewhat).

[Sudo_Nym]

First of all, I want it known that I have nothing against Mexal. I actually respect the aggressive playstyle, even though I don't practice it. My vote against him was partially OMGUS, plus it didn't seem like he actually read my post, and allegation that had turned out to be false. Mostly, it was because that little sliver was the closest thing to an actual reason to vote anybody; my previous vote was completely random. So,

unvote

. His playstyle is naturally going to attract attention as a scum, though, from the things I've seen, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

Secondly, I haven't even been gone for a day, and I'm lurking? I spent all day yesterday at work, then went to school in the evening, and posted when I got home, then went almost immediately to sleep. I get up the next morning, and I'm accused of lurking? At least let me be away a full 24 hours before the Dirty Lurker tag comes down on my head.

Thirdly, I want it known that my idea was never so simple as a massclaim- but I knew the word would set off flames in any case. Don't get me wrong, it did include as it's centerpiece, but it was more complicated than that. I didn't express the whole because it wouldn't make it less stupid, just more complicated, so the reaction wouldn't have been any different. I came up with the idea after a meatworld game that devolved into random voting by the masses well into the endgame. I was trying to find an idea that would reduce the randomness, and this is what I came up with. It's terrible right now, but I think it could be something, if people are willing to help me develop it.

I knew I would get called out for it, and while I don't like it, I do accept it. Mexal does have a point- somebody with malicious intentions could do exactly what I did, then press it to their advantage. All I can hope is that people realize I didn't intend it like that. And yes, I do realize that that requires people believe I'm telling the truth in a game of mafia.

[curiouskarmadog]

@karmadog: lol, trying to use my "supposedly" circular logic against me? It's not being more cautious, it's correcting a mistake (somewhat).

did I call is circular logic? I was just wondering, you told us when you are scum, you play cautious, I thought you were trying to tell us something..

why bother correcting a mistake?

[curiouskarmadog]

edit
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[jerubbaal]

[quote="Sudo_Nym]And yes, I do realize that that requires people believe I'm telling the truth in a game of mafia. [/quote]
I'll trust you as far as I can throw you, at least until you're dead or the game's over. So whether or not people choose to accept your explanation of your actions, which seems a reasonable explanation, the possibility that it was all a ploy will remain.

My statement that you were lurking was not necessarily from your inactivity, but rather from the fact that your only recent post was kind of a nothing post. You showed up, said "Hey, thanks for defending me guys, Mexal was the only one who misunderstood me," (I don't think this is misrepresenting, correct me if it is) and nothing more. It felt like a lot had happened concerning you since your last relevant post, so I probably used the lurker tag a bit prematurely. There's just a lot of lurking going on in this game and I'm getting kinda frustrated with it. You're certainly not the worst perpetrator.

[jerubbaal]

Grr, messed up my tags. I think you all get the way it should be.