Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!

[Anata112]

I've been analyzing the posts so far, and will be posting up my analysis soon. However, I have to go to class now, but I'll be back soon.

[Jitsu]

This is in responst to Jerubbaal's post 140. I saw just before posting this that more has been posted since but I haven't read it yet.

Your statements are fair. I agree that committing a fallacy in my logic there, just as I did with Mexal. That begs the question, "if it was a mistake, what were you thinking?" I think in spite of my caution with placing votes and perceptiveness with regards to details, perhaps I was a bit too eager in trying to pin down scum. To be fair though, I did not jump back onto Sudo after I changed my thinking on Mexal.

The second fallacy was honestly not an attempt to put words in Mexal's mouth, though I can see why you thought that. I was simply trying to work out the logic of the theory I had come up with.

I admit I made a mistake regarding what you pointed out above, and another one previously for jumping on Mexal without considering the countercase. I messed up, but I'm honestly trying to scumhunt the best I can. Clearly, I need to think through my logic more before presenting my cases.

As I kind of hinted in my last post to him, I get a townie read off of Mexal and from you as well. Your post was really the first to fully consider the plausibility of Mexal's arguments at a time when such an opinion was still unpopular among the active players -- I had already started my reply but not posted it yet. Also, the tone I read from Mexal is that he seems to be trying to help me improve my play, which I appreciate.

As for Sudo_Nym, I'm not sure what to think now. I want to consider what he says before I make up my mind.

I am getting slight townie vibes off of CKD as well, for his pursuit of the suspicions on Miztef.

As with you, Miztef is at the top of my list also. He seems to have made poor excuses for what he admits is bad town play and is only now starting to defend some of his choices. I noticed his recent posts have gotten a lot tighter too, like he is trying to lay low. For a reasonably active player, he doesn't seem to have a lot of good substance in his posts. He seems to be putting votes on people without following up on them.

For Gorlash, I admit I got a little lost in his exchange with Mexal. I have noticed some things I want to follow up on, but I want to reread to get a more complete picture on him.

I haven't paid a lot of attention to oEJo or Abstract lately. I want to try to get reads on them also.

[curiouskarmadog]

curiouskarmadog - Has posted a fairly reasonable amount regarding the contradictions in Miztef's posts. Good, fairly accurate reading, little to criticize. Only real possible criticism is the tunnel vision on Miztef, who is the easy target right now. I guess I'd just like to hear more (this is sounding like a mantra).

why is he an easy target? maybe it is because he is playing scummy?..shouldnt we pressure those we feel are scummy?

[Anata112]

If I misinterpreted something, please let me know. I would welcome any replies to any concerns that I may have. What I have done was summarize the activity so far, since that helps me think and keep track on what has happened. Then I follow up each summary with my own thoughts. Hopefully this summary would help with the discussion.

Abstract Actuary
Not much input so far, other than explaining his instincts, and putting up a random vote. However, his vote was a second one, so it seems to me like he’s trying to start a bandwagon initially in the game.

Sudo_Nym
He started off with a random vote (second for CKD), and tried to prod people when they reacted. He was part of the discussion about the necessity of the mass claim, but he didn’t propose it until Jitsu asked him for it. Later he unvoted for CKD, and voted for Mexal, but I don’t know why. Later he explains that he was just doing more random voting. I have a feeling that he’s just trying to hunt out the scum, rather than acting scummy.

Jayalay
Not much input from her. I guess us girls tend to be more quiet. =)

Curiouskarmadog
Starts off with a random vote for jitsu, and then later unvotes. Agrees that a mass claim is not a good idea, and feels that Korlash was not overreacting to the votes against him. He does continue to probe korlash for more explanation.


Korlash
He’s been a very active player with very strong opinions from the beginning, involved in all discussions. He questions the need for a fourth vote that a few others have been pushing for. However, at this point in the discussion, there were three votes against him, so it’s possible that he was trying to defend himself. He feels that random voting would not be useful in this part of the game. He’s also been heavily involved in the most recent discussion.

Jitsu
He first started off with a vote for Abstract, and then unvoted him. He stated that Jayalay seems townie-ish and that the initial voting stage was quite random. When Miztef started pushing for a fourth vote, he agreed. He also agrees with Miztef that random voting is good for checking for people’s reaction. He also seconds the guess that korlash is a townie. It’s interesting to me on how he’s sure that certain people have a townie-vibe. After checking for new posts, he agrees that sudo_nym shouldn’t have proposed the mass claim, but he was the one that asked sudo_nym what his ideas were. Am I wrong here?

Jerubbaal
He’s been quite analytical throughout the game so far. He feels that Jitsu is doing a good job of scum-hunting, and that jayalay should speak more. He also disagrees with the mass claim idea. After a long discussion in the form occurred, he appeared again and stated that he felt that the random voting stage is done, and unvotes CKD, and votes for sudo_nym.

I still can’t decide whether Jitsu is simply really good at scum-hunting, or whether he’s trying act townie, so I can’t agree with Jerubbaal. I also don’t understand why he voted or sudo_nym since I couldn’t see a clear explanation. Considering that he feels that the random voting stage is done, then why did he vote for sudo_nym?

Anata112
That’s me. I haven’t input very much yet, but I’ve mentioned scummy-vibes from
Miztef. You can read my other ideas throughout this post (duh).


oEJo
Another quiet player so far. He first randomly voted for sudo_nym, and then unvoted for him. He provides summaries as well, which has been quite useful.

Miztef
After my analysis, I found that it was Miztef that first randomly voted for me, but then later unvoted and revoted for CKD. His reason for voting for CKD was to keep the game moving forward. He later started pushing for a fourth vote, explaining that he usually puts pressure on people to get more info. Later he unvotes Korlash, which is really strange because his vote was for CKD (unless I missed something?). Regardless, he once defended Mexal stating that people weren’t giving him a chance as he just got back from vacation. He also mentioned that he was surprised that no one had voted for him.

I don’t have much else to add about Miztef, other than the fact that he keeps trying to push the game forward. Either he’s trying too hard to catch scum, which is his excuse, or he’s not blending into the town very well.


GunslingerKB
Not much from him, other than a third vote for Korlash. Why did he third the vote? Like other players, I would like to hear from him. His lack of activity seems a bit suspicious.

Mexal
Mexal voted for Korlash randomly (he was the first one), and then later unvoted and voted for sudo_nym. Again, I’m not sure why, and I would like to hear an explanation. He also agrees that a mass claim is a bad idea.

Things got a bit crazy and I lost track of things. From what I understand, sudo_nym sort of proposed a mass claim which several people did not agree with. However, since sudo_nym was prodded before he proposed this, I’m not sure if he agrees with this as well. I find this part of the discussion going in circles. However, hopefully later it will give us insight of who is being scummy. This is between mexal, miztef, sud_nym, korlash, and jitsu, with a few brief comments from me, oEJo, and jerubbaal.

After this horribly long post, I still cannot say for sure who I think is scummy or not. However, I’m still keeping an eye of Miztef, and now on jitsu as well, based on my analysis.

[Mexal]

Mexal voted for Korlash randomly (he was the first one), and then later unvoted and voted for sudo_nym. Again, I’m not sure why, and I would like to hear an explanation. He also agrees that a mass claim is a bad idea.

What part of my reasoning are you unsure about? I was under the impression that it was pretty clear why I voted for Nym, whether people agree with it or not.

Things got a bit crazy and I lost track of things. From what I understand, sudo_nym sort of proposed a mass claim which several people did not agree with. However, since sudo_nym was prodded before he proposed this, I’m not sure if he agrees with this as well.

He was only prodded because he pointed out that he knew more efficient ways of finding scum. If you made a statement like that, wouldn't you expect to be prodded?

Just for the record, I'm not sure what I believe about his explanation. I'd like to hear more from him about everything else in the game. My vote will stay for now though.

[jerubbaal]

why is he an easy target? maybe it is because he is playing scummy?..shouldnt we pressure those we feel are scummy?

I'm certainly not complaining about your pressuring Miztef, I think it's a good thing to do. The only thing I was concerned at all about was that you've only posted on Mizef. You mention one of Korlash's posts approvingly and as jitsu what exactly he's asking for, but as far as analysis, it's pretty much all directed at Miztef. I think I just want to know that you're looking at this whole situation holistically, instead of just focusing on the one guy who's acting scummy. Not that you should let up on him, but it's good to see more than just the obvious targets.

Anata, I'm not quite sure what exactly it is that you're not agreeing with me regarding jitsu? I simply pointed out some logical fallacies in his arguments, which he has addressed (see post 151). Whether you agree with me or not, those fallacies are present. I'm not nailing him to the wall for it, but even he admits he made some mistakes.

[curiouskarmadog]

I am currently comfortable when my energies are going toward this game..that being said, later on in this Day, I will post a top three scum list, 7 pages in, it would just be a waste, for my opinion will probably change as we get closer to a deadline.

[Mexal]

I am currently comfortable when my energies are going toward this game..that being said, later on in this Day, I will post a top three scum list, 7 pages in, it would just be a waste, for my opinion will probably change as we get closer to a deadline.

But it gives us something else to talk about. Your opinion is allowed to change and part of that comes from discussion. Feel free to post your list.

[curiouskarmadog]

I am currently comfortable when my energies are going toward this game..that being said, later on in this Day, I will post a top three scum list, 7 pages in, it would just be a waste, for my opinion will probably change as we get closer to a deadline.

But it gives us something else to talk about. Your opinion is allowed to change and part of that comes from discussion. Feel free to post your list.

I will do it, maybe in a page or two...but I feel if I post anything now, it will only distract from who i feel is the scummiest and needs more pressure.

[Mexal]

I am currently comfortable when my energies are going toward this game..that being said, later on in this Day, I will post a top three scum list, 7 pages in, it would just be a waste, for my opinion will probably change as we get closer to a deadline.

But it gives us something else to talk about. Your opinion is allowed to change and part of that comes from discussion. Feel free to post your list.

I will do it, maybe in a page or two...but I feel if I post anything now, it will only distract from who i feel is the scummiest and needs more pressure.

Don't worry, we already know you think Miztef is the scummiest and you want to pressure him. He will not be forgotten, I promise you

[Jitsu]

Jitsu
He first started off with a vote for Abstract, and then unvoted him. He stated that Jayalay seems townie-ish and that the initial voting stage was quite random. When Miztef started pushing for a fourth vote, he agreed. He also agrees with Miztef that random voting is good for checking for people’s reaction. He also seconds the guess that korlash is a townie. It’s interesting to me on how he’s sure that certain people have a townie-vibe. After checking for new posts, he agrees that sudo_nym shouldn’t have proposed the mass claim, but he was the one that asked sudo_nym what his ideas were. Am I wrong here?

This analysis doesn't sound fair to me. You seem to have pointed out everything negative I've done, and not mentioned any of the positive things I've done. It even sounds like you are subtly attempting to link me to Miztef by mentioning some things we happened to agree on at the time. How do you reconcile this with the criticism I've put on him since then?

Also, where do I say that I'm

certain

that someone is townie? I don't remember ever saying such a thing, because I was never that sure.

I did ask Sudo_Nym about his idea, but only because he hinted he had something to say first (post #55). I merely called him on it (post #60). I admit to committing logical fallacies in relation to the massclaim, but I don't see how I contradicted myself just by asking what Sudo_Nym meant.

I still can’t decide whether Jitsu is simply really good at scum-hunting, or whether he’s trying act townie, so I can’t agree with Jerubbaal.

I don't really know if I'm good at scum hunting or not. As I said, I think I've been perceptive and asked some good questions, but I believe I need some work on applying the correct logic to what I've seen, based on some mistakes I've made.

It took me a read or two to get it, but I think I see what what you're up to. Your timing for a subtle attack on me is impeccable, as I am reeling from the mistakes I've made on the logical fallacies Mexal and Jerubbaal, which I pointed out. I suppose you are trying to bait me into jumping up and down and OMGUS voting you so you can point to that as further evidence on me? Nice try, but I'm not biting.

Needless to say, you've alerted my suspicions (

FOS:Anata

), but I don't think I can present a strong enough case on you to convince the others. I'll go back to scum hunting, but IGMEOY.

[Korlash]

Wow this is the first Time I have ever just skimmed the new posts before posting... You guys really are active during the day... huh, go figure.

Ok...

These fallacies are not huge deals, and not really even as big as those committed by other players, such as Korlash,

Can you name the "Follacies" I have committed please? Thanks...

Also:

I really don't think he ever quite "got" Mexal's point in the whole shouting match.

Hey just because I do not agree with his point does not mean I don't get it. Jumping on an obvious suspicious thing, putting a pressure vote (Along with a lot of discussion, questions, reasons, etc.) and defending your statements are all very good things and I respect that. However, jumping on people's attacks with your own skeptasism can have the same effects. So I merely countered attacked a point I did not fully agree on, and you think I'm an idiot because of that? Huh... So we should limit our focus of attack on only those who post things and assume the ones attacking them for it are town? (Note that was rhetorical and I am in no way trying to twist your words here. I am merely illustrating my point. Thanks ^^)

As for all this new stuff... I will get to it as soon as I get back! Glad to see a good quality Anatta post... Can't wait to read it.

[Anata112]

What part of my reasoning are you unsure about? I was under the impression that it was pretty clear why I voted for Nym, whether people agree with it or not.

Perhaps I missed something. I'll have to re-read those posts again.

He was only prodded because he pointed out that he knew more efficient ways of finding scum. If you made a statement like that, wouldn't you expect to be prodded?

I suppose so. Whatever his intentions were, it is possible that he was just probing for scum and trying to see who would pick up on the bait. Anyways, we're still waiting for a reply from sudo_nym.

[Anata112]

This analysis doesn't sound fair to me. You seem to have pointed out everything negative I've done, and not mentioned any of the positive things I've done. It even sounds like you are subtly attempting to link me to Miztef by mentioning some things we happened to agree on at the time. How do you reconcile this with the criticism I've put on him since then?

Also, where do I say that I'm

certain

that someone is townie? I don't remember ever saying such a thing, because I was never that sure.

I did ask Sudo_Nym about his idea, but only because he hinted he had something to say first (post #55). I merely called him on it (post #60). I admit to committing logical fallacies in relation to the massclaim, but I don't see how I contradicted myself just by asking what Sudo_Nym meant.

I was merely trying to summarize the activity so far in the discussion. I did not intend to purposely link anyone to anything. Basically, I started from the beginning and wrote down assertions or activities stated by each person. I apologize if you feel that I ignored any positive things that you have done. Perhaps you could tell me specifically what I missed?

There are a couple of posts where you stated that you felt a townie-vibe from certain people. Perhaps my brain made a cognitive shortcut, and inserted that you were "certain", but that was the interpretation that I got from your posts at that time.

It took me a read or two to get it, but I think I see what what you're up to. Your timing for a subtle attack on me is impeccable, as I am reeling from the mistakes I've made on the logical fallacies Mexal and Jerubbaal, which I pointed out. I suppose you are trying to bait me into jumping up and down and OMGUS voting you so you can point to that as further evidence on me? Nice try, but I'm not biting.

I think you interpreted a bit too much from my post. Like I said several times, I was just trying to summarize the activity to look for some sort of pattern.

It's really interesting to see how people are reacting to my post.

[Sudo_Nym]

Waiting for a reply from Sudo_Nym about what? I answered about the claim snafu, and I don't intend to say any more about that. I don't have a list of players and my level of suspicion regarding them at this point, if that's what you want, but I do have some thoughts about certain people:

Mexal- Like I said, I appreciate the aggresive gameplay, though I don't do so myself. His style lends itself to natural scuminess, but he strikes me as being innocent enough. I'd say probably town, but could go either way. If he is town, he probably doesn't have a power role- most people (even the aggressive ones) tend to lay off a bit more when they have a power role; though this rapidly denegrates into WIFOM.

Anata- Little antsy; tries to make me out to be a lurker, though I haven't even gone a whole day without posting. Admittedly, I don't act as often as everyone else seems to, but that doesn't mean lurking.

Jitsu- Interesting. When the whole thing started, says its innocent; that I was locked into saying something after he asked. However, he has seemingly reversed his opinion on the insistence of Mexal. Perhaps he's trying to blend in with whatever mob appears to be in the lead?

The others, I don't have anything substantial on yet.

[jerubbaal]

I'm sorry Korlash, but I just do not think that your arguments are usually internally consistent and/or address the relevant points of a discussion. For example:

Hey just because I do not agree with his point does not mean I don't get it. Jumping on an obvious suspicious thing, putting a pressure vote (Along with a lot of discussion, questions, reasons, etc.) and defending your statements are all very good things and I respect that. However, jumping on people's attacks with your own skeptasism can have the same effects. So I merely countered attacked a point I did not fully agree on, and you think I'm an idiot because of that? Huh... So we should limit our focus of attack on only those who post things and assume the ones attacking them for it are town? (Note that was rhetorical and I am in no way trying to twist your words here. I am merely illustrating my point. Thanks ^^)

Overall, this one's not terrible, but I still have difficulty working through the tangled mess of your language. For one, I'm not sure what "jumping on people's attacks with your own skeptasism" [ooo, that hurt to type] means here. I'm certainly not criticizing you for being overly critical, I'm criticizing you for being incoherent.

I in no way have a problem with you disagreeing with an idea. Throughout the argument between you and Mexal, he continually posted frustration because you were not addressing the relevant points of the argument. He would write about one thing and you would respond with an entirely irrelevant statement. The fact that you were not answering his arguments or even his direct questions to you seemed indicative to me that you were not understanding those questions or the points expressed. I think it might be a healthy exercise for you to be very deliberate about posting the statements you are responding to and posting succinct and direct responses, like one or two sentences.

As far as an example of fallacies or inconsistencies or whatever, here's a good one.

My views on random/early pressure votes: To a good player,

they will not help out too much

. As long as a player knows they are in no danger they should not over react. So I try to avoid making them myself.

Proside of random/early pressure votes: They can help in starting active discussion.(Not always about the voted, sometimes about the voter.)

So one or two votes may hep make a person talk, others may require a few more, as you see I only needed 3 to fully begin talking

.

So while I agree they can be helpful I am against making them... I know it's hard to understand that but I feel that the other 11 players will make enough that I don't have to, while I am confident I am fully able to create discussion through just that, discussion.

No iffy votes to use against me later, no hard feelings right off the bat

.

Mostly it's because I feel you get more info from the voter then you do from a smart voted...

First bold point, okay, so a smart scum might not trip up if some pressure comes on him, but a dumb one might. I'm entirely fine catching dumb scum. How good a player is has nothing to do with whether they are scum or not. So here you note that they're not very helpful against good players, don't acknowledge the idea that bad players might respond differently.

Second bold point, you claim that the pressure of three votes was sufficient to get you talking, despite the fact that you just claimed that a good player shouldn't feel any pressure from votes. Are you claiming bad player? But here you admit that they can be helpful getting people to start talking, despite the fact that just before you said they weren't helpful against smart players. Are they only helpful in making dumb players talk? Were they helpful in making you talk?

Third bold point, I don't see any players here getting huffy about the random votes placed on them, except potentially you. The other players can do the work, which is apparently important and relevant work, as it got you talking. The only thing I've really ever seen people bringing up random votes for is scum bussing their scumbuddy(s) early on. You seem to acknowledge that random votes have little meaning, as you admit that smart people shouldn't feel pressure from meaningless votes, so why are you so worried about people holding those votes against you later.

That was a bit longer than I had wanted it to be, but I think the point stands. My problem with your arguments, Korlash, has been their lack of internal consistency. You don't seem to know where you're going or how to get there. That's why I'm suggesting much tighter, accurately cited posts, so we can actually get to the point of what you're saying and see how it relates to the argument, because right now I just don't see it.

[Jitsu]

I have lots of comments to make, but I really need some sleep, as I spent the last two nights staying up late writing long posts. But I want to comment on what Sudo_Nym has said since I can make comments on his post quickly.

Mexal- Like I said, I appreciate the aggresive gameplay, though I don't do so myself. His style lends itself to natural scuminess, but he strikes me as being innocent enough. I'd say probably town, but could go either way. If he is town, he probably doesn't have a power role- most people (even the aggressive ones) tend to lay off a bit more when they have a power role; though this rapidly denegrates into WIFOM.

Of course it's true that power roles lay low, and aggressive players are less likely to be power roles to protect themselves from scrutiny and help ensure they get to use their powers longer. But why did you see the need to tell everyone this and narrow down the potential hit list for the mafia? We have plenty of newbies in this game, and there is absolutely no guarantee they would have already known this. This is an incredibly awful anti-town move.

Jitsu- Interesting. When the whole thing started, says its innocent; that I was locked into saying something after he asked. However, he has seemingly reversed his opinion on the insistence of Mexal. Perhaps he's trying to blend in with whatever mob appears to be in the lead?

I said it was innocent at first because Mexal was being aggressive and more importantly, I believed you. After what Mexal said, I did reverse my opinion somewhat, and your most recent post has only reinforced my position that trusting you was foolish. I won't say for sure that you are scum, but IMO, your recent post is even more suspicious than the massclaim was.

And Mexal did not insist that I do anything. He presented his case and I made up my own mind after listening to him and to you.

[Korlash]

When did I get huffy over a vote placed on me?

[Sudo_Nym]

Mexal insisted upon the point; whether he insisted directly towards you is irrelevant.

And since when does pointing out what should be obvious become anti-town? Knowledge is power, friend- and at this stage, the mafia has all the knowledge. Anything that increases the level of knowledge to the players increases the town's chance to win. Besides, the point I made should be readily available to anyone who cared to research the game before playing it. Though I do understand if others didn't do as much prereading as I did before my first game.

[jerubbaal]

Not really huffy, but you certainly started speaking out against pressure votes once there were a few pressure votes on you.

And you really have nothing to say about the rest of my post?

[jerubbaal]

Pointing out the tendencies of town power roles does certainly seem to not be a pro-town thing to do. I do not see at all how this helps the town at this point. Perhaps this would be a relevant point once claims start occurring, to reflect on the validity of those claims, but at the moment, all you seem to be doing is pointing out likely mafia targets. What particular advantage did you think that this knowledge provides the town at this point?

I would not so much say that knowledge is power as that information is power. The scum are inherently privileged here, as they at the least know their own group (yeah, there are exceptions and weird traitor scenarios, but we're speaking in general terms here). We can gain some information from the cop eventually (assuming we have a cop and assuming he does not get killed early), but even cop claims have to be carefully examined. When you share information, you are sharing it with the mafia as well. Some things should not be discussed in the thread, such as information which only benefits mafia, and I think this is one such case.

[Korlash]

And you really have nothing to say about the rest of my post?

No, I just didn't feel the need to confuse you with my bad language before I got the only real answer I wanted out of you. If you want me to use better grammer thats fine, but try and use correct words yourself there.

Lets see,

They might weed out bad players... Your right. A bad player may react badly to it and thus we gain something. However, I generally find a pure random vote does not even make most bad player's react in any bad way. At the same time a pure "I am going to put pressure on you with this vote" vote without any backing has a semi good chance of leading to bad info. (As in an OMGUS vote, an attack at a player's lack of reason, getting annoyed to the point of flaming. Things like that.) But at the same time it can lead to the person being voted for talking. (As in questioning why he was being voted for.)

So in my mind it is much more useful to simply say "Hey so and so. You said this, this, and this. I don't agree with this, and I think this is a pretty suspicious thing. Mind explaining?" instead of "Hey I think so and so is suspicious. Vote: So and So!"

You clearly see how discussion will speed up with the first sentence, leading to effective scum hunting and info for the town. While the second sentence is a gamble as to if the player is bad enough to react. If you want an accurate read of a player you need more then just a reaction to a vote, you need their reaction to a well thought out and based question.

Point two I think is pretty much answered... well not really. I am not claiming bad player. I feel I am a pretty good player, even though the general consensus around here is I am more or less an "idiot who doesn't get things." (Thats how I sum up all your guy's comments about me. I don't believe anyone actually used the term idiot.)

It is not so much that three votes made me talk, it was more I started to actually form opinions about tings at three votes. I feel there is a certain number of votes a player can receive before they feel obligated to say something about it. Such as me, as soon as I get at least 1-2 active player's votes on me I will speak up on things so as to hopefully get my face and ideas recognized and to hopefully answer anything they thought was vote worthy. Granted using myself as an example was not the best thing i could have done to prove my point, so I can see where this could very well be labeled as talking in circles or even a folly.

Third point, you pretty much summed it up. I have, in the past, used a player's random vote to suggest a small distancing technique that could be used by scum partners, also, say I voted you as my first vote. If you die and are proved town, my vote could be used to to show I "voted for town." Neither of those are very good attacks I know, which is why I try to avoid even the possibility of them being used. Better safe then sorry. I am sure there are more examples I just cannot think of the ATM.

Note: I hope you did not read that post.

I am going to try your suggestion of being very clear and what not. This means I will have a quote, then one or two sentences about it. This of course limits my responses and in effect means I will not be able to fully give my opinion on things. I find it hard to imagine how that will help the town, but if thats what you think is best... here it goes:

I'm sorry Korlash, but I just do not think that your arguments are usually internally consistent and/or address the relevant points of a discussion.

I have only seen one tiny "Internal inconsistency" so far so I find it a bit of a stretch to say that they "usually are".

I actually feel my posts do address the relevant points, at least I thought I did.

For one, I'm not sure what "jumping on people's attacks with your own skeptasism"

That means I will attack their claim to see how they react. If they defend it well I am more likely to agree with them, just the same, if they defend it poorly i will be more inclined to disagree with it.

First bold point, okay,

so a smart scum might not trip up if some pressure comes on him, but a dumb one might.

I'm entirely fine catching dumb scum. How good a player is has nothing to do with whether they are scum or not. So here you note that they're not very helpful against good players,

don't acknowledge the idea that bad players might respond differently.

A dumb town may act the exact same way, which could start a long spiral to their lynch where a simple question might have been cleared up in 4 posts.

Bad players always respond differently then good players, like you said how good a player is has nothing to do with if they are scum or not.

Second bold point,

you claim that the pressure of three votes was sufficient to get you talking, despite the fact that you just claimed that a good player shouldn't feel any pressure from votes.

Are you claiming bad player? But here you admit that they can be helpful getting people to start talking, despite the fact that just before you said they weren't helpful against smart players.

Are they only helpful in making dumb players talk?

Were they helpful in making you talk?

I did not feel pressure from the votes, I felt I didn't fully understand where you guys were heading with your Fourth vote plan, so I spoke up about it.

And i will not try and speak for other peoples actions. To some a vote may be a sign for someone to talk, while to others they may see it as I do. You very well could put your vote on someone who you will get a reaction from, I just would rather not take the gamble.

Third bold point, I don't see any players here getting huffy about the random votes placed on them, except potentially you. The other players can do the work, which is apparently important and relevant work, as it got you talking. The only thing I've really ever seen people bringing up random votes for is scum bussing their scumbuddy(s) early on. You seem to acknowledge that random votes have little meaning, as you admit that smart people shouldn't feel pressure from meaningless votes, so why are you so worried about people holding those votes against you later.

I do not fully understand what you mean here so my reasoning here may be a little off. Correct me if I am wrong.

what do you mean by "The other players can do the work, which is apparently important and relevant work, as it got you talking." and how does it apply to this point?

Also I am not so much worried about a good solid attack for a random vote, I just do not want to give people any reason to create a bad attack like those I said before later on. (Voted a towny, distancing, etc.)

That was a bit longer than I had wanted it to be, but I think the point stands. My problem with your arguments, Korlash, has been their lack of internal consistency.

You don't seem to know where you're going or how to get there.

That's why I'm suggesting much tighter, accurately cited posts, so we can actually get to the point of what you're saying and see how it relates to the argument, because right now I just don't see it.

I think of myself as an open minded person so i am trying to work with you here. But I can easily see this as a way to just ignore everything I have been saying and create a "reason to doubt future posts" shadow on me. I am definitely not going to press this issue, as I can agree sometimes I am confusing, but I think it would be a lot better for you to point out what you do not understand about my posts, an let me explain them, then to try and make me change my whole way of playing. With the above quotes I feel I did not get to fully explain my stand on some points, and so I fully expect people to ask me to explain them. So while I will wok on bettering my "language" I also expect you to make an effort to understand my posts, even i it means asking me in specific detail "What does this mean?"

[oEJo]

I apologise for not posting very much - have been pretty busy with exams. Will post something soon, I promises!

[Mexal]

Mexal- Like I said, I appreciate the aggresive gameplay, though I don't do so myself. His style lends itself to natural scuminess, but he strikes me as being innocent enough. I'd say probably town, but could go either way. If he is town, he probably doesn't have a power role- most people (even the aggressive ones) tend to lay off a bit more when they have a power role; though this rapidly denegrates into WIFOM.

How does my style lend itself more toward scuminess? What do you find scummy about my actions thus far?

I honestly cannot believe you commented on the potential of me having a power role. Right now, I'm speechless. That was so stupid it's not even funny which makes me think you're town. And that scares the hell out of me.

[Jitsu]

And since when does pointing out what should be obvious become anti-town? Knowledge is power, friend- and at this stage, the mafia has all the knowledge. Anything that increases the level of knowledge to the players increases the town's chance to win. Besides, the point I made should be readily available to anyone who cared to research the game before playing it. Though I do understand if others didn't do as much prereading as I did before my first game.

First of all, I'm not your friend.

Look at the join dates of the players in this game. Several have joined in October, and a bunch more in September and August. You seem to be one of the more experienced players, having joined this spring. Almost everyone else has less than 5 months experience. There are many relative newbies in this game and is is not unreasonable to expect that we have newbie scum in our midst. Given, as you say, that you understand that others may not have done as much prereading as you did before your first game, you've all but confirmed my point. It is far from certain that everyone would have known that townies with power roles generally lay low.

You have put any town power roles in far greater danger of being NK'ed than they were before, in exchange for what information? Helping the town get a slightly better read on Mexal? If I were scum, I would make that trade in a heartbeat.

With subtly suggesting the massclaim earlier, and now providing valuable information to scum, you've now commited two cardinal sins of Mafia on Day 1. If you do come up town, this is probably some of the worst Day 1 town play I've ever seen.

There's just one thing about this that doesn't make any sense to me that is stopping me from voting for you right now. If you are scum, why did you give out this information to the other scum when you could simply have told them this at night? It's almost as if you're trying to look suspicious. Maybe because you're a Jester? I don't know. Since I don't fully trust my logic at this point, maybe the other townies can help me fill in the blanks.