Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!

[Jitsu]

Wow, with all of the simultaneous posting there, I didn't catch part of GunslingerKB's post.

I thought I had a pretty good read on the game, but after Sudo_Nym's gaffe and some insightful comments from Mexal, oEJo and others, my world just got turned upside down.

I think I have a good read on the players I suspect as townie, but my read on the scum just went kablooey.

I still get scummy vibes from Miztef, my opinions on him haven't changed much., and I still don't like Anata's analysis (I haven't forgotten that I need to respond to that).

And I just don't know where to put Sudo_Nym, because I can't make the logic fit. I don't believe he is a regular mafioso. I am leaning toward either a townie (whose play I completely don't understand) or some kind of anti-town special role.

[Jitsu]

Sudo might be a traitor but he's done a poor job thus far. The point of a traitor is to help the mafia avoid being lynched, not get lynched themselves for anti-town comments.

Alright, let me turn this around and the question another way.

Sudo has apparently done a poor job of being a townie, a poor job of being a regular mafioso, and a poor job of being a traitor.

It's certainly possible (and maybe even probable) that he is still a townie playing poorly.

But let's consider the remaining possibilities for a second: other than a Jester, which would seem to be unlikely in this setup, is there anything that Sudo has been

good

at?

[Mexal]

Sudo might be a traitor but he's done a poor job thus far. The point of a traitor is to help the mafia avoid being lynched, not get lynched themselves for anti-town comments.

Alright, let me turn this around and the question another way.

Sudo has apparently done a poor job of being a townie, a poor job of being a regular mafioso, and a poor job of being a traitor.

It's certainly possible (and maybe even probable) that he is still a townie playing poorly.

But let's consider the remaining possibilities for a second: other than a Jester, which would seem to be unlikely in this setup, is there anything that Sudo has been

good

at?

No, but it's early.

[jerubbaal]

Korlash, I appreciate your clarity on that last one. You answered specific questions with relevant answers. I do really apologize if you think I was calling you an idiot. Your logic has seemed very confused to this point, but it seems like you've proven you can post well when pressured.

As far all this stuff lately, I'm glad that we finally have some of our errant posters back. Still no Jayalay, so might a mod prod be in order soon there?

I really don't like Gunslinger's analysis. It's been halfassed and mainly rooted on what he calls his feelings about things. Be particular. If you aren't pointed and specific about what you find wrong with people, everyone else here has no reason to believe anything that you say. I have absolutely no reason to trust your "feelings." If your only justification of an idea is a feeling, I'd rather you keep it to yourself than throw it out there to distract other people. Follow it up, if you want, and find something hard, but I'm not going to waste my time chasing down a feeling of someone I have no reason to trust.

I'm not sure I bite on all this weird role stuff with Sudo. It's certainly possible, and we shouldn't discount that he might be something strange like a traitor, but it could just as easily be that he is a townie making bad townie plays or a scum making blatant scummy moves. Maybe he's just a bad player and maybe he just didn't think his arguments through all the way. It seems presumptuous to assume that his strange moves can only lead him to some strange role.

[Jitsu]

I'm not sure I bite on all this weird role stuff with Sudo. It's certainly possible, and we shouldn't discount that he might be something strange like a traitor, but it could just as easily be that he is a townie making bad townie plays or a scum making blatant scummy moves. Maybe he's just a bad player and maybe he just didn't think his arguments through all the way. It seems presumptuous to assume that his strange moves can only lead him to some strange role.

No worries, I'm not assuming that it can only lead it to some strange role. I am merely trying to explore all of the possibilities, even unlikely ones. The thought of a blatant scum is still possible, I think.

Occam and his razor would suggest you are correct anyway. It's the simplest explanation.

[curiouskarmadog]

Ugh, ok power roles sometimes do hang low because the fear of coming across scummy for some reason and having to claim or getting vigged or Nked at night. But who cares, mafia and disinterested vanillas can do the same thing, why are we talking about it?

Why is Jitsu trying to direct the cops investigation?

Vote: Jitsu

I felt earlier on that he may have been trying to act like he was analyzing everything to sort out the scum. But I have a vibe telling me that he is acting. Im not 100% sure of this, but he is one of the few people that haven't been considered the slightest bit scummy, and I kinda feel he has.I figure at this point, a random lynch on someone that seems scummy would be a good idea. I dont think voting sudo_nym out at this point would really hurt anything either. (Note: My vote for jitsu isnt really trying to campaign to get him out. I just wanted to state my concern. If nothing else shows up against him, I will probably unvote. )

welcome to my scum list. If Jitsu, is "one of the few people that hasnt been considered the slightest bit scummy" (which isnt true, but using your words) then why are you voting for him if you think random lynching a scummy player is a good idea? "my vote isnt a campaign"?? What? Do you think Jitsu is scummy or not? This feels like someone looking for a wagon to start, but doesnt want to take responsibility if it does.

I think Jitsu sees what I mean, but other than that, what I feel is hard to put down. What seems like acting from him may be him really analyzing things. And yea. I probably shouldnt have voted anyway.

Unvote: Jitsu

now that I have thourougjly read a few more posts, I think sudo_nym is really the way we should go first day. He seems a little wonky.

Vote: Sudo

And that post by me was really stupidly dumb. I just went back and read it and pretty much laughed at my own stupidity. It was too early for me... *yawn*

No one buys his post or his vote, so he comes back with this…Don’t know if this was a bad newbie town or a bad newbie scum move.

Oh it gets worse.

Oh...yea sorry....

Scummyness List: (Excluding Me of course)
1.Sudo
2. Anata
3. Mitzef
4. Korlash
5.Jerubaal
6.oEJo
7.CKD
8. Jitsu
9.Abstract
10.Jayalay
11.Mexal

he has gone from wanting to lynch Jitsu to having him 8th on the scum list? Please explain.

Bored with the conversation about what odd roles Sudo could be, I think it was odd he brought up the mass claim, but really I think he is scum or town…I don’t think he is going to have any strange role (at this point). This conversation sounds more like theory, than actual scum hunting.

[Jitsu]

A better way of stating my comments in post 204 would be, since nothing seemed to fit well for me with Sudo, I was trying to test other theories to see if they were a better fit with the observations everyone has made, but nothing seems to stand out as a better option. At this point, almost anything is possible.

You did make a good point in 203 that blatant scum is still a possibility, so my comments in 204 reflected that.

[Jitsu]

Why is Jitsu trying to direct the cops investigation?

Sorry, I was just trying to help. *sigh*

[curiouskarmadog]

I realize you are new (or at least new to the site)...sort of felt like you were trying to deflect

[Jitsu]

That's fair.

I'm not just new to the site. This is the first game of mafia I've ever played, though I've read a lot of games here on the site before I joined this one. I am quickly finding out that actually playing the game is totally different than "playing along" with one as you read.

I'm just beginning to get a little frustrated. I'm really trying to help the town in the best way I can, but it seems I keep making small mistakes that keep my analyses from being really, really useful. So close, yet so far. I'm grateful to the other townies that are helping me become better.

But getting discouraged definitely won't help the town, so I need to keep trying. At least, it's made it difficult for anyone to call me a lurker.

It's painfully clear that I've analyzed this Sudo thing to death and I need to start looking for fresh leads.

[Miztef]

OK, I just read everything up to this point again, and will do so again soon (probably). There's a lot of info swimming through my head, so please try to bear with this post, and don't take it as my absolute and solid opinion on eveything:

Scum list (top 3):

GunslingerSB
Karmadog
Korlash

Reasons:

Gunslinger - pretty sure we have a newb player here. I still consider myself a newb, and I've played around 20 games around the net (usually die quickly though) and many more in real life. His comments on page 8 and blatantly anti-town, and contradictory. As others have pointed out, he attacks jitsu, then posts a scum list with him in 8th. He wishes to lynch someone (anyone?) that "Seems suspicious", he even mentions at random. His reasons for feeling people are scummy, is basically "wonky". Right now, I believe he is scum, and a very bad one at that.

karmadog - I wish I had substantial evidence for this one, but it's more of a scum-vibe then anything. It's hypocritical of me to say, but his attack on gunslinger is opportunistic seeming, and almost too hard (as if he's SURE gunslinger is mafia). Maybe I just don't like this playstyle, but IGMEOY.

Korlash - Very odd poster. Most of his posts pertain to views on how the game should be played, and how roles could/should/would act. After looking through a bunch of his posts, I noticed a general lack of observations and conclusions. I need to look into this more to solidify my position on this.


Other Notes:

Sudo-Nym: Seems scummy, but I agree that he could be some "other" type role. Unless something radically changes about his game play, I don't think I want to vote today at least.

Anata (her long post): A lot players have drawn observations/conclusions about anata from this post, but I don't see anything particularly incriminating or very pro-town. I may need to read the posts that react to it again to get more info.

Mexal: Most pro-town player to me at this point. I don't have much evidence for this, I just like the way he plays, and trust his opinion most at this time.


I think that's about all I have to say at this time.

[curiouskarmadog]

karmadog - I wish I had substantial evidence for this one, but it's more of a scum-vibe then anything. It's hypocritical of me to say, but his attack on gunslinger is opportunistic seeming, and almost too hard (as if he's SURE gunslinger is mafia). Maybe I just don't like this playstyle, but IGMEOY.

LOL, yeah I bet you wish you had evidence. NOW I make his scum list...this is straight OMGUS. Please state where I said I was "sure gunslinger is mafia"? If I was sure I would be voting him, but who am I actually voting?....ahhhh...why is it ok for you to say gunslinger is scummy, but not me?

[Miztef]

I know, it's completely hypocritical, but it's the way you state things. It's as if you know what's going on a bit too much. I had my scum list, and don't have much evidence. Sorry, I did what I could to explain.

Again, these are not set in stone opinions, I've been really busy lately, and only recently read over the posts. I still need another good reread.

[Jitsu]

more posts, I think sudo_nym is really the way we should go first day. He seems a little wonky.

Vote: Sudo

I can't believe this. Is that the only reason you have, or is there some other reason for voting him?

And more than just voting him, you insist that he is the play for today. That's quite a strong statement to begin with, and doubly so since your reason for voting him is weak in the first place.

One could also get the impression from this post that you're ready for the day to end. Why are you in such a hurry?

[jerubbaal]

Ok, I have a couple serious suspicions which I think need answered.

Miztef - Stop posting wishy-washy junk and follow through on some of these ideas. You were impatient, and now you're being noncommittal. Of your three suspicious characters, Gunslinger is the only one you actually mention a solid case against. If you want anybody to listen to you about CKD and Korlash, give us a reason to listen to you. I frankly don't give a darn about your "vibes."

Gunslinger - I mentioned before that I really didn't like your analysis, and I think CKD did a good job of taking it apart and explaining the contradictions. Between only two to three posts, you have managed to commit a huge number of inconsistencies. And you've been vote hopping as well in those posts. Not good. You have joined Miztef at the top of my list, which is pretty amazing considering how little you've posted.

jitsu - Trying to guide the cop is committing a number of bad things. One, you're claiming not-cop, which makes it easier for the mafia to find the cop. Two, it does sound like scum attempting to manipulate the actions of the town. I'm not so much demanding an answer for this one as pointing out that such guiding is really not a pro-town move. CKD kinda already called you out for this one.

[Jitsu]

@Miztef:

I notice your play has gotten considerably tighter. Previously you didn't defend yourself and called your own play horrible. Now you are attempting to say something, and actually defend yourself but I can't really find anything substantive in your posts, and I still get the feeling that you are overall very lazy, and like others have said, attempting to put votes on people and let others push. You've posted no true in-depth analysis other than "general vibes" on people.

Also, you say you think Mexal is the most pro-town and you trust his opinions most of the time, but last I remember, he thought the attacks I and others made on you had merit. I know the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but why do you say you trust someone (a fairly strong statement of innocence) that really doesn't seem to trust you?

[Jitsu]

jitsu - Trying to guide the cop is committing a number of bad things. One, you're claiming not-cop, which makes it easier for the mafia to find the cop. Two, it does sound like scum attempting to manipulate the actions of the town. I'm not so much demanding an answer for this one as pointing out that such guiding is really not a pro-town move. CKD kinda already called you out for this one.

I understand now. Yes, CKD did already call me on it, as he should have.

[Miztef]

@Miztef:

I notice your play has gotten considerably tighter. Previously you didn't defend yourself and called your own play horrible. Now you are attempting to say something, and actually defend yourself but I can't really find anything substantive in your posts, and I still get the feeling that you are overall very lazy, and like others have said, attempting to put votes on people and let others push. You've posted no true in-depth analysis other than "general vibes" on people.

Also, you say you think Mexal is the most pro-town and you trust his opinions most of the time, but last I remember, he thought the attacks I and others made on you had merit. I know the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but why do you say you trust someone (a fairly strong statement of innocence) that really doesn't seem to trust you?

Does everyone ignore my "I've been busy lately" lines? I'm trying here, but 3 midterms and calculus + algebra tests coming up soon, I really just can't think this stuff through right now.

I said, in that post, that I still need to reread, and that my opinions are just rough stuff right now. I wanted everyone to know I was still involved in the game.


About the Mexal comment, I actually didn't realize Mexal was still very keen on me, I only skimmed through his posts (as there are a whole lot of them, and I was focusing mostly on things that pinged my scumdar).

Tonight, hopefully, I will have enough time to reread and clarify my position.

[Abstract Actuary]

I apologize for not being more active. I've been swamped at work lately and the length of the posts so far has made keeping up overwhelming. I'm almost completely caught up at this point, but won't finish until tomorrow morning. I've reached the end of page 7.

I want to comment on this post and the other posts addressing this issue.

Mexal insisted upon the point; whether he insisted directly towards you is irrelevant.

And since when does pointing out what should be obvious become anti-town? Knowledge is power, friend- and at this stage, the mafia has all the knowledge. Anything that increases the level of knowledge to the players increases the town's chance to win. Besides, the point I made should be readily available to anyone who cared to research the game before playing it. Though I do understand if others didn't do as much prereading as I did before my first game.

The mafia do not have all the knowledge. The knowledge that they still lack is any possible town power roles. The exact thing that you are endangering with your suggestion.

Jitsu brought up this point already, but the only thing that doesn't make this a blatant scum move is that a normal scum player could just tell his partners this at night. Unless there is some wrinkle where the scum can't talk to each other at night, this move doesn't make sense no matter whose side you are on.

[NabakovNabakov]

Vote Count as of Post 218

Sudo_Nym (2):

jerubbaal, GunglingerKB

Korlash (1):

Abstract Actuary

Miztef (1):

curiouskarmadog

Not Voting (8):

Jayalay, Anata112, Korlash, Jitsu, Mexal, oEJo, Sudo_Nym, Miztef

12 alive, 7 will lynch.


Prodding Jayalay

Note:

Please bold "Mod" in all future in-thread communcations. (or send a PM) Sometimes I only have time to skim the thread, and that makes things easier to spot.

Apologies for continuing VC inaccuracies.

[Jitsu]

About the Mexal comment, I actually didn't realize Mexal was still very keen on me, I only skimmed through his posts (as there are a whole lot of them, and I was focusing mostly on things that pinged my scumdar).

I wasn't trying to speak for him here, I am only giving my impression on what I think his opinion of you is based on the last few comments he's made about you. Of course, it is better if Mexal gives his own opinions.

[Mexal]

About the Mexal comment, I actually didn't realize Mexal was still very keen on me, I only skimmed through his posts (as there are a whole lot of them, and I was focusing mostly on things that pinged my scumdar).

I wasn't trying to speak for him here, I am only giving my impression on what I think his opinion of you is based on the last few comments he's made about you. Of course, it is better if Mexal gives his own opinions.

I still think he's scummy.

[Miztef]

I believe I unvoted korlash eariler...

anyway, if not I

unvote

now

[GunslingerKB]

Ok....You caught me..................Im a noob.

When I mention Jitsu and voted in my first actual gameplay post, I said a really confusing pile of junk about how i thought about it. But basically I will break down how it should have came out.

Jitsu seemed and has seemed to be virtually a non-mafia player. i felt as though that most people here didnt see him as scummy, yet a good analyzer. I didnt really want to vote him out. What I placed as a vote, i should have instead placed as a FOS. Mainly just to let people open their eyes to a possibility that they maybe hadnt considered. All the bull placed in between the lines of that post didnt really mean too much at all. I dont really consider Jitsu too scummy after all. Earlier in the day though, I hadnt had a chance to read thouroughly through all of the posts, so i kinda just tried to spurt something.

In my next post, I clearly tried to evade my first post, and did it in a very lazy way. It made me seem even more suspicous, and that was understandable.
The list...well...after #4, the scummyness factor wasnt even really there.

I have realized I cant just post off the wall crap to try to get discussion going about something. Il make sure my gameplay is tighter now. I also have internet at my house now, so my posting will be normal again.

[Sudo_Nym]

The mafia do not have all the knowledge. The knowledge that they still lack is any possible town power roles. The exact thing that you are endangering with your suggestion.

All I commented on was that I believe he's vanilla townie. What purpose could possibly be served by saying such a thing in-thread if I were mafia?