Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!

[curiouskarmadog]

meaning that I think my vote is currently on the scummiest person in this game..

which one (of jitsu's post)?

[Mexal]

meaning that I think my vote is currently on the scummiest person in this game..

which one (of jitsu's post)?

Uh, saying you don't have a problem with someone and saying that they're not the scummiest are two VERY different things. If you don't have a problem then you don't think they're scummy. If you think they're scummy but not the scummiest, that's a different thing altogether.

As for his post, the one where he rips apart Anata's post and Jeru and I followed up with votes. What other post would I be talking about in regards to Anata?

[Jitsu]

Honestly, at this time, I'd lynch Miztef, Anata or Gunslinger. I think we should lynch one of them then re-evaluate where we stand tomorrow.

They are also my top three at the moment. I do feel that the discussion is starting to stagnate, but I there are a few loose ends that I'd like to see get wrapped up. I would prefer to wait a day or so of real time to see if Anata responds, since she said she was gone for the weekend. I really want to give her a final chance to defend herself, now that a lot of people besides me have asked for it. Maybe we can get some commentary from her and the others that have been gone over the weekend. Also, given that Jayalay has requested replacement, I'd like to give her replacement a chance to come in, get caught up, and weigh in.

While we are waiting, Mexal, if nothing else changes, who do you think is the play, and why?

[Jitsu]

meaning that I think my vote is currently on the scummiest person in this game..

which one (of jitsu's post)?

I believe the relevant posts Mexal is referring to are my 242, then Anata's reply at 265, and my rebuttal at 267.

[curiouskarmadog]

meaning that I think my vote is currently on the scummiest person in this game..

which one (of jitsu's post)?

Uh, saying you don't have a problem with someone and saying that they're not the scummiest are two VERY different things. If you don't have a problem then you don't think they're scummy. If you think they're scummy but not the scummiest, that's a different thing altogether.

As for his post, the one where he rips apart Anata's post and Jeru and I followed up with votes. What other post would I be talking about in regards to Anata?

Clearly, if Anata is guilty of anything it is being lazy...On a different note, I find it interesting that she got 3 votes back to back so quickly when this game has two quite scummy players just floating around. Please explain to me, how being lazy is scummy. Granted it is not very pro-town, but scummy? How is Anata’s laziness any different from Oejo or Gunslinger? I think Jitsu made some good points, but I think that a lot of this case revolves around game theory versus actual scum actions and assumptions. I can agree with some of Jitsu’s points without being compelled to place a 4th vote on Anata. I think she has adequate amount of pressure on her at the moment (as jitsu said about Gunslinger and Mitzef). Does this mean I wont change my mind about her later and vote her? No, I just want to keep my vote on who I actual think is scum.

I dont think Anata is scummy at this point (dont have a problem with her). Her actions (or lack thereof) have been noted.

I think Anata is correct being suspicious of 3 votes back to back. Not so much of Jitsu, but Mex and Jub..there posts were of the “I agree” flavor. Do I find that scummy? Not alone, but I think it is note worthy. It is called developing a voting record. Seems to me that I would be asking some follow up questions with my vote, if they truly were wanting to do some scum hunting…or if they were just for pressure purposes I would say that (like Jitsu did).

[Mexal]

Clearly, if Anata is guilty of anything it is being lazy...On a different note, I find it interesting that she got 3 votes back to back so quickly when this game has two quite scummy players just floating around. Please explain to me, how being lazy is scummy. Granted it is not very pro-town, but scummy? How is Anata’s laziness any different from Oejo or Gunslinger? I think Jitsu made some good points, but I think that a lot of this case revolves around game theory versus actual scum actions and assumptions. I can agree with some of Jitsu’s points without being compelled to place a 4th vote on Anata. I think she has adequate amount of pressure on her at the moment (as jitsu said about Gunslinger and Mitzef). Does this mean I wont change my mind about her later and vote her? No, I just want to keep my vote on who I actual think is scum.

I dont think Anata is scummy at this point (dont have a problem with her). Her actions (or lack thereof) have been noted.

I think Anata is correct being suspicious of 3 votes back to back. Not so much of Jitsu, but Mex and Jub..there posts were of the “I agree” flavor. Do I find that scummy? Not alone, but I think it is note worthy. It is called developing a voting record. Seems to me that I would be asking some follow up questions with my vote, if they truly were wanting to do some scum hunting…or if they were just for pressure purposes I would say that (like Jitsu did).

How is she clearly guilty of being lazy? I think I'm missing something here. I don't get what is lazy about anything she did. Please explain it to me.

The votes coming like that are meaningless. You need 7 votes to lynch and she only has 3 on her. Now if she got 4, 5 and 6 quickly, that'd be something to worry about. But getting 3 votes quickly means nothing. She can question them, but if that's all she does and doesn't bother to actually address the post that we agreed with, then who's the one looking scummy? She tried to push suspicion on the votes while sidestepping the post about her. Don't you find that strange? Where has she been since then? Where is her response to all the points Jitsu made?

As for you, what points of Jitsu's do you agree with? I mean, you have no problem with her at all (meaning you don't find her scummy) yet you agree with some of the points that make her look scummy. I'm curious which ones and I'm also curious which ones you don't agree with.

I know exactly what a "vote record" is and I understand noting strange votes. I don't blame you guys for questioning my vote. So by all means, go for it

[Miztef]

@mexal: Anata did mention she can not post till monday. I made the mistake of thinking she was lurking as well.

[Mexal]

@mexal: Anata did mention she can not post till monday. I made the mistake of thinking she was lurking as well.

Ok. Well, today is Monday so I guess we'll get her responses today. No big deal.

[curiouskarmadog]

jitsu's post didnt just revolve around Anata. he shed light on other's he thought were scummy and he discussed some game theory. Votes are not meaningless, they imply that you think someone is scummy, you want to add pressure, you are trying to get other's reactions, etc etc...are you saying that your vote on Anata is meaningless? Why are you not wondering where Gunslinger has gone?

I would like to hear your case against her in your words.

[Mexal]

jitsu's post didnt just revolve around Anata. he shed light on other's he thought were scummy and he discussed some game theory. Votes are not meaningless, they imply that you think someone is scummy, you want to add pressure, you are trying to get other's reactions, etc etc...are you saying that your vote on Anata is meaningless? Why are you not wondering where Gunslinger has gone?

I would like to hear your case against her in your words.

You're sidestepping my questions. I asked you some very pointed questions and you are ignoring them, focusing on the irrelevant.

Votes aren't meaningless but focusing on the first three votes when the other 4 aren't on the person is pointless. You're not going to gain anything from it until the person is lynched or close to a lynch. So while questioning the speed is ok, trying to shed suspicions on the votes really is immaterial. The fact of the matter is, she's not lynched yet, nor is she even close so again, you're focusing on the wrong thing.

As for my case on her, it's Jitsu's. I've said that multiple times. I don't want to have to go through his post again just so I can rehash the same exact points he made. It's pointless. I can do it but it serves zero purpose when I'm telling you that's what I'd do.

[curiouskarmadog]

jitsu's post didnt just revolve around Anata. he shed light on other's he thought were scummy and he discussed some game theory. Votes are not meaningless, they imply that you think someone is scummy, you want to add pressure, you are trying to get other's reactions, etc etc...are you saying that your vote on Anata is meaningless? Why are you not wondering where Gunslinger has gone?

I would like to hear your case against her in your words.

You're sidestepping my questions. I asked you some very pointed questions and you are ignoring them, focusing on the irrelevant.

Votes aren't meaningless but focusing on the first three votes when the other 4 aren't on the person is pointless. You're not going to gain anything from it until the person is lynched or close to a lynch. So while questioning the speed is ok, trying to shed suspicions on the votes really is immaterial. The fact of the matter is, she's not lynched yet, nor is she even close so again, you're focusing on the wrong thing.

As for my case on her, it's Jitsu's. I've said that multiple times. I don't want to have to go through his post again just so I can rehash the same exact points he made. It's pointless. I can do it but it serves zero purpose when I'm telling you that's what I'd do.

LOL, I am side stepping questions? You are avoiding them.

Dont tell me what is irrelevant and what is not.

What is your case against Anata? If you cant form your own case to back your vote, what is Jitsu's case that you are backing? Also, why are you ignoring Gunslinger (second time I have asked)... I will quote Jitsu's posts that I agree with, if you really need it. But I have already told you what I agree with...I agree with the other's he finds scummy and some of his game theory (not assumptions). What other questions have I "side stepped"?

[Mexal]

LOL, I am side stepping questions? You are avoiding them.

Dont tell me what is irrelevant and what is not.

What is your case against Anata? If you cant form your own case to back your vote, what is Jitsu's case that you are backing? Also, why are you ignoring Gunslinger (second time I have asked)... I will quote Jitsu's posts that I agree with, if you really need it. But I have already told you what I agree with...I agree with the other's he finds scummy and some of his game theory (not assumptions). What other questions have I "side stepped"?

Yes.

I asked you what do you agree with, what you don't. I asked you why you think Anata is lazy. I asked you if you found it strange that she's casting suspicion on the votes while ignoring the main points of Jitsu's post. I asked you if you found it suspicious that she avoided all the points of his post. None of these questions you've answered.

As for my case, once again, WHY DO I HAVE TO REPEAT what another says? I can go through her post and do the exact same thing Jitsu did, but why should I have to when I already claimed I agree with his post? Why do you want me to be a parrot? What difference does it make? If you want to criticize my case, criticize Jitsu's. If you don't want to criticize his, then why make me repeat it all over again just so you can call Anata lazy?

As for Gunslinger, I haven't ignored him. You mentioned above he disappeared when he got heat and I agreed. I also mentioned that I would lynch him. What else do you want me to say? When he posted, I questioned him. He's made 6 posts in the game and the points have been covered extensively by others. Why do you need me to rehash those too?

[curiouskarmadog]

LOL, I am side stepping questions? You are avoiding them.

Dont tell me what is irrelevant and what is not.

What is your case against Anata? If you cant form your own case to back your vote, what is Jitsu's case that you are backing? Also, why are you ignoring Gunslinger (second time I have asked)... I will quote Jitsu's posts that I agree with, if you really need it. But I have already told you what I agree with...I agree with the other's he finds scummy and some of his game theory (not assumptions). What other questions have I "side stepped"?

Yes.

I asked you what do you agree with, what you don't. I asked you why you think Anata is lazy. I asked you if you found it strange that she's casting suspicion on the votes while ignoring the main points of Jitsu's post. I asked you if you found it suspicious that she avoided all the points of his post. None of these questions you've answered.

As for my case, once again, WHY DO I HAVE TO REPEAT what another says? I can go through her post and do the exact same thing Jitsu did, but why should I have to when I already claimed I agree with his post? Why do you want me to be a parrot? What difference does it make? If you want to criticize my case, criticize Jitsu's. If you don't want to criticize his, then why make me repeat it all over again just so you can call Anata lazy?

As for Gunslinger, I haven't ignored him. You mentioned above he disappeared when he got heat and I agreed. I also mentioned that I would lynch him. What else do you want me to say? When he posted, I questioned him. He's made 6 posts in the game and the points have been covered extensively by others. Why do you need me to rehash those too?

you want me to quote parts that I agree with, but you are not willing to post a case to back up your vote?..."do you want me to be a parrot?" I want to hear your case…YOUR CASE, yeah, be a parrot,…but put it in your words. What points did Anata not address to your satisfaction? Have you asked any follow up questions?

I will even make it easy for you, I am not even asking you to “add anything”…just give me 3 bullet points of your case against Anata that warranted your vote. Quit riding Jitsu’s back.

You do this, and I will post what I agree and disagree with(but again, I have already stated what I agreed with, but if you need the actual quotes I will post).

There is a point to this, so just make your case.

[Mexal]

you want me to quote parts that I agree with, but you are not willing to post a case to back up your vote?..."do you want me to be a parrot?" I want to hear your case…YOUR CASE, yeah, be a parrot,…but put it in your words. What points did Anata not address to your satisfaction? Have you asked any follow up questions?

I will even make it easy for you, I am not even asking you to “add anything”…just give me 3 bullet points of your case against Anata that warranted your vote. Quit riding Jitsu’s back.

You do this, and I will post what I agree and disagree with(but again, I have already stated what I agreed with, but if you need the actual quotes I will post).

There is a point to this, so just make your case.

And yet again, YOU IGNORED MY QUESTIONS. Every single time I ask you a question regarding Anata, you ignore it. You're really getting on my nerves.

As for the rest of your analysis, I think it's total crap. Most of the stuff you mention is totally pointless and too much of it was a rehash of the random voting stage where nothing much was going on.

But more telling is all the stuff that was missing. You talk about the massclaim, but only to get it wrong about how it started and question the extremely obvious reasons for Mexal and Jerubbaal's votes on Mexal. There is not an ounce of commentary on the aggressive posts, disagreements, and the noticable swing of several players to Mexal's side of the argument. At that point in the game, that exchange provided enormously valuable information and after it was all over, likely formed some of the basis for some the reads people currently on each other.

While I don't expect anyone to cover every aspect of the game in a summary like this, and not every analysis can be completely comprehensive, you talked about a lot of things that had little impact on the game, and did not comment on just about everything that has had a big impact on the game.

One could simply say that you're a townie that has done a really, really sloppy job on reading and keeping up, and that you're lazy. Perhaps you were just looking for posts where people voted and reported some information about it. I admit that is a possibility.

But given that you seemed to know who was involved in the massclaim and you comment on votes that took place during it without mentioning any of the really telling events that happened, I have to think you read at least some of those posts. And if you did that, why didn't you go back and reread more carefully, as it should have been pretty obvious something was going on since votes were actually being placed then (unlike a lot of this game so far). I think it is possible that you intentionally distorted your analysis.

Also, I get the impression that you may have been trying to help out Sudo by deflecting suspicion from him. You didn't seem to understand the reason for any of the votes on him, yet you seemed to notice the votes themselves. When people were talking about their suspicions on him, you replied that it was possible that he could be scum hunting. When you thought I prodded him for the mass claim, it was suspicious enough to move me up to the top two on your most scummy list with Miztef (post 153), but Sudo_Nym, who actually said it, was probably scum hunting? I'm speechless.

I agree with this. Happy now? The simple fact is that she made a rehash of what was going on but ignored the main parts. She was distorting the facts and casting suspicion without sound reasoning. Not to mention her inability to read. Is that enough for you?

[curiouskarmadog]

You seemed to completely misinterpret how the mass claim started here. Given how important of an event that was in the game, not taking the time to go back and see how it started is at least a little suspicious. Nobody else seemed to have a problem seeing what happened, so I don't think it was that subtle of a detail. And when you were called on it in post 154 by Mexal, your reply was basically "I suppose" and then you express that he may have been probing for scum. I'm sorry, but how does making an anti-town post like that root out scum? Giving support for a mass claim on Day 1 is potential suicide for any player. Nothing is definite, and even scum would be likely to denounce it or just keep quiet. Given all the lurking that was going on at the time, I would say that it was a pointless exercise at best. And when Mexal voted Sudo for making the stupid massclaim, Mexal retaliated by OMGUSing Mexal for it. How is that decent scum hunting? Sudo may or may not be scum, but IMO, he hasn't been a scum hunter in this game.

Agree somewhat, I don’t think that Anata was misrepresenting the “mass claim idea” here as much has he simply wasn’t really reading the thread(or maybe not understanding it). The only people who would actually think this was how events occurred would be other people that weren’t really reading the thread. I think Anata is just being lazy (as Jitsu mentions later).

Later in this quote Jitsu mentions game theory, but I agree with his thoughts. “but how does making an anti-town post like that root out scum?” I have seen it done several times someone (usually a power role, who has bread crumbed) suggests something that could be considered anti-town, to see who jumps on the bait. If no one agrees with him and he is close to a lynch, he can point to his bread crumb and say “hey, I was looking for scum”. However, I do not think that Sudo was doing this. I don’t understand why Sudo mentioned it. Another theory is that he mentions it (mass claim) to set up a distancing argument for his scum buddies. In the post, he also suggests the disadvantages of a mass claim (keeping him out of hot water) and sets up a counter argument for his scum buddies. Anyone remember who was the loudest to say it was a bad idea? Just something that is note worthy. The reason I haven’t attacked (or even really question) Sudo about this was because on the off chance he is a power role looking for scum…I have noted it, for it might be important later. The only other thing I noted, was that Sudo’s suggestion (prior to the mass claim post) had the feel of someone, setting up anyone to prod. Sudo says he has an idea (be it a stupid one), Jitsu was curious and asked what it was, Sudo answer with his mass claim idea. Why did Sudo need to be prodded to provide this idea, why not just come out with it? Sort of feels like Sudo can always fall back on “well, I didn’t want to say it, but Jitsu asked for it”…..at any rate, all of the above are theories and assumptions…I have noted, and might have to reference later.

You're not sure why he voted for Sudo? Are you serious? The exchange that sprung up from this lasted several

pages

. Even if you missed the reason on the post where he actually placed his vote, the reason is repeated several times over on the next few pages. When Mexal called you on this (#154), your response was "perhaps I missed something" (#162). You never answered his question.

Anata obviously isn’t reading the thread…or at least just skimming, this equals lazy.

When I read your post, I was sure you were trying to frame me. Now I'm a bit less sure, but I still think that's a possibility.

Ugh, Don’t agree with this statement….all assumptions. I think Jitsu is giving Anata too much credit.

As for the rest of your analysis, I think it's total crap. Most of the stuff you mention is totally pointless and too much of it was a rehash of the random voting stage where nothing much was going on.

I can see why Jitsu is saying this.

But more telling is all the stuff that was missing. You talk about the massclaim, but only to get it wrong about how it started and question the extremely obvious reasons for Mexal and Jerubbaal's votes on Mexal. There is not an ounce of commentary on the aggressive posts, disagreements, and the noticable swing of several players to Mexal's side of the argument. At that point in the game, that exchange provided enormously valuable information and after it was all over, likely formed some of the basis for some the reads people currently on each other.

Again, Anata is just being lazy..and skimming

While I don't expect anyone to cover every aspect of the game in a summary like this, and not every analysis can be completely comprehensive, you talked about a lot of things that had little impact on the game, and did not comment on just about everything that has had a big impact on the game.

This is a subjective argument. Who is to say what has little or big impacts on the game? I think what Jitsu’s biggest problem is Anata’s disinterest in this game. Again, half assed posts.

One could simply say that you're a townie that has done a really, really sloppy job on reading and keeping up, and that you're lazy. Perhaps you were just looking for posts where people voted and reported some information about it. I admit that is a possibility.

I agree with Jitsu here. On another note, this is why I don’t think Mexal is reading this game either. He asked me why I thought Anata was lazy (even inquired where I got that idea), but agreed entirely with Jitsu’s post even voted. If you actually read Jitsu’s post, you would know where and why I thought people basically just think Anata is lazy.

But given that you seemed to know who was involved in the massclaim and you comment on votes that took place during it without mentioning any of the really telling events that happened, I have to think you read at least some of those posts. And if you did that, why didn't you go back and reread more carefully, as it should have been pretty obvious something was going on since votes were actually being placed then (unlike a lot of this game so far). I think it is possible that you intentionally distorted your analysis.

Again, can be explained by anata’s laziness. Jitsu, what motivation would Anata have here to distort anything? Is she pushing a case that I missed? Later you mention she might be trying to help Sudo…so does that mean they are scum together? Almost seems like you might think Anata is scum, because you think Sudo is scum.

Also, I get the impression that you may have been trying to help out Sudo by deflecting suspicion from him. You didn't seem to understand the reason for any of the votes on him, yet you seemed to notice the votes themselves. When people were talking about their suspicions on him, you replied that it was possible that he could be scum hunting. When you thought I prodded him for the mass claim, it was suspicious enough to move me up to the top two on your most scummy list with Miztef (post 153), but Sudo_Nym, who actually said it, was probably scum hunting? I'm speechless.

This is a good point. Jitsu, did she actually place you on his top two scum list? If so, I am missing that post. If she did, that might be scummy, for you really didn’t prod Sudo for the mass claim idea. Sudo said he had an idea, Jitsu asked what he had in mind. There was no way that Jitsu knew Sudo was talking about a mass claim when he asked. However, if there is a post that I am missing that Anata says Jitsu is on her top two scum list, please post.

You may be just a lazy townie, but at this point, I think it is more probable that you are scum, lazy or otherwise.

I also find Miztef and Gunslinger scummy at this point,

Very much agree

but I think the others are adequately pressuring them already.

Very much disagree...other than myself, who has pressure Gunslinger or Mitzef? Im I adequately pressuring them alone? IF so, why does it take three to attack Anata?


All that being said (quoted) I think Anata is a newbie/lazy/trying to look town. I don’t think that being lazy=scummy. I think being lazy =useless and not very helpful. Trying to look town is different. This is a scum move to be sure, but it could also mean other things….all of it are assumptions. It is note worthy, but not enough for me to vote.

I also think Mexal vote is interesting. He added little. We know he can post large content filled post, but only provides a “I agree” post. Where are the follow up question? Jitsu, was applying pressure, if you were doing that too, don’t you have some questions for Anata to answer? I asked him to provide a small bullet point case, but he just quotes a huge block of Jitsu’s post. He cant even do that. Jitsu, I feel might be scum hunting, what are you doing? Even Jer, added something. I get the feeling that he also thinks that Anata is scum, because he thinks Sudo is. However, Mexal I am not sure. He agrees with Jitsu's post, but doesnt understand why I thought Anata was being lazy...this doesnt make since, please explain Mexal...and again, can I just have your case in three bullet points, I read Jitsu case..I want your case (even if it is Jitsu's case) in your words..why is that so hard?

For those currently voting Anata, my question is, why go after Anata if you think Sudo is scum?…What if Sudo comes up town? How does that effect your thoughts on Anata? I bet it does to some degree.

What if Anata comes up town, how does that effect your thoughts on Sudo? I have a feeling it really doesn’t.

Seems to me like Sudo is the one you really want to be voting, if Sudo comes up scum, this is looks quite bad for Anata.

This all being said, I think Mitzef is the lynch today. He is scummy all by himself (as is Gunslinger)…I would also not be against pressuring (even lynching) Sudo more as it could provide much info.

I think Gunslinger and oejo need to post more.

Is this enough Mexal?

[Mexal]

It's possible that everything she had done was laziness. I highly doubt it though. Why make a post if you're not even going to address anything that we're discussing? Why be lazy and then come back and say you were trying to document everything that was going on? Seriously, it makes no sense for her to be lazy and make a post like that. Why is she allowed to be lazy but Gunslinger isn't? Why aren't I allowed to be lazy when rehashing Jitsu's post? Why is it Anata is the only one allowed to be lazy? You're protecting her and you're pushing off everything she has done as laziness...nothing as intentional. I don't know if you've played with her before, but without knowing her, I don't see how you can even think that. The reason I didn't mention it as apart of Jitsu's post is because I dont' think he believed it. He is new and he doesn't have the conviction in his cases more experienced players do. He was making excuses for her just in case he was wrong because he's not 100% sure. But I don't think he truly believes she's just lazy...I know I don't.

All that being said (quoted) I think Anata is a newbie/lazy/trying to look town. I don’t think that being lazy=scummy. I think being lazy =useless and not very helpful. Trying to look town is different. This is a scum move to be sure, but it could also mean other things….all of it are assumptions. It is note worthy, but not enough for me to vote

I don't buy it. You are making the assumption that she is lazy. You don't know her, you don't know her style yet you can accurately say in 10 posts that she's being lazy. How do you know this? What about her analysis suggests this? The fact that she doesn't know the reasons behind Sudo? The fact that she's leaving out major events in the game while focusing on the minute? Why can't that be calculated? Why can't she be a newbie scum trying to look town by focusing on details that are irrelevant to the main conversation because one of the people in the conversation is scum with her? Is that so far out of the realm of possibility that we automatically assume she's lazy?

I also think Mexal vote is interesting. He added little. We know he can post large content filled post, but only provides a “I agree” post. Where are the follow up question? Jitsu, was applying pressure, if you were doing that too, don’t you have some questions for Anata to answer? I asked him to provide a small bullet point case, but he just quotes a huge block of Jitsu’s post. He cant even do that. Jitsu, I feel might be scum hunting, what are you doing? Even Jer, added something. I get the feeling that he also thinks that Anata is scum, because he thinks Sudo is. However, Mexal I am not sure. He agrees with Jitsu's post, but doesnt understand why I thought Anata was being lazy...this doesnt make since, please explain Mexal...and again, can I just have your case in three bullet points, I read Jitsu case..I want your case (even if it is Jitsu's case) in your words..why is that so hard?

Why do I have to post follow up questions when Anata doesn't even address the post that was made against her? Why do I have to be the focal point of all discussion in this game? Why is it my job to drive this game along by posting follow up questions to everyone? Isn't it possible that my goal was to see who defended Anata? Isn't it possible that I wanted to see what other people did? You keep making these assumptions that I'm the one supposed to be leading the town but by doing that, how do I get a full picture of the game? If I want to post follow up questions, I do it. If I want to post a case, I do it. If I just want to follow a case, I'll do that as well. My playstyle is what it is. Don't expect me to be the master leading all the dogs around by a leash. It's funny that you're attacking me for this considering how much content I've provided for this game. This is one of the reasons I DIDN'T make a case. This is one of the reasons I didn't follow up with a crapload of pressure. Simply put, I wanted to see who defended her and now I know.

For those currently voting Anata, my question is, why go after Anata if you think Sudo is scum?…What if Sudo comes up town? How does that effect your thoughts on Anata? I bet it does to some degree.

Why do we have to think Sudo is scummier? We obviously think Anata is scum so why can't we vote for her? I'll let you know my thoughts on Sudo when Anata is lynched

What if Anata comes up town, how does that effect your thoughts on Sudo? I have a feeling it really doesn’t.

What's your point?

Seems to me like Sudo is the one you really want to be voting, if Sudo comes up scum, this is looks quite bad for Anata.

Any reason you're trying to get us to remove our vote on Anata and move it to Sudo?

This all being said, I think Mitzef is the lynch today. He is scummy all by himself (as is Gunslinger)…I would also not be against pressuring (even lynching) Sudo more as it could provide much info.

He might be scummy, but he's not the lynch for today, especially with you defending Anata rather strongly.

How does Sudo provide more info than Anata? You seem to believe that we're only voting for Anata because of Sudo. On top of that, you're defending her. What info would we gain from lynching Miztef? Gunslinger? Sudo?

I think Gunslinger and oejo need to post more.

I agree.

Is this enough Mexal?

Sure is. Thanks for proving how adamantly you are against a Anata lynch

[Miztef]

Because some people are still keen on lynching me, can I get all the points against me so I can defend myself? I believe I tried to defend myself before, but I'm a little confused as to what makes me so especially scummy.

I find it kind of ridiculous that karmadog posted a whole bunch of stuff regarding anata and some others, yet hasn't talked about the case against me lately, whom he seems to be keen on lynching. My impression is basically that karmadog is either mafia going after the easy lynches, or just has a grudge against me for voting him earlier.

His spreading of suspicion (me, gunslinger, mexal, sudo, anata?) is quite large, and gives me the impression that he is trying to make sure he can slip between votes and look more innocent no matter who is lynched.

If he is scum, His semi-protection of anata makes me believe she is also more likely scum.

Don't care how OMGUS this seems, I feel karmadog is most scummy at this time, and am going to

vote: Curiouskarmadog

[curiouskarmadog]

Because some people are still keen on lynching me, can I get all the points against me so I can defend myself? I believe I tried to defend myself before, but I'm a little confused as to what makes me so especially scummy.

I find it kind of ridiculous that karmadog posted a whole bunch of stuff regarding anata and some others, yet hasn't talked about the case against me lately, whom he seems to be keen on lynching. My impression is basically that karmadog is either mafia going after the easy lynches, or just has a grudge against me for voting him earlier.

His spreading of suspicion (me, gunslinger, mexal, sudo, anata?) is quite large, and gives me the impression that he is trying to make sure he can slip between votes and look more innocent no matter who is lynched.

If he is scum, His semi-protection of anata makes me believe she is also more likely scum.

Don't care how OMGUS this seems, I feel karmadog is most scummy at this time, and am going to

vote: Curiouskarmadog

LOL, see what I mean?

Miz was there a case in here somewhere?.Now, am I scum because I have suspicions on several people, or am I scum, because I thought Anata is lazy and not the lynch of today? ANd yes, this is very OMGUS...sad sad sad...why dont you put a case with that vote...you want my case again, you got it.

Now wont a Miz lynch tell you something too?

Mex, I have a reply coming, but lack the time at the moment..

[Jitsu]

I need to carefully reread the last few posts before I comment further, but I want to cite my statement I made earlier.

As for where Anata put me in her top two, she never explicitly said ther her top X suspects were person 1, person 2, ...., but at the very end of post 153, she says:

After this horribly long post, I still cannot say for sure who I think is scummy or not. However, I’m still keeping an eye of Miztef,

and now on jitsu as well, based on my analysis

.

[bolding mine, for emphasis]

Gien how little else she's posted, and seeing how Miztef and I are the only people she's mentioned she was suspicious of after the random voting stage, this seems to put Miztef and I in her top two list of suspicious characters by default. At the very, very least, she has singled out Miztef and me above all others. And here she does cite her "analysis" (that is, post 153) as her reason for this.

[curiouskarmadog]

I need to carefully reread the last few posts before I comment further, but I want to cite my statement I made earlier.

As for where Anata put me in her top two, she never explicitly said ther her top X suspects were person 1, person 2, ...., but at the very end of post 153, she says:

After this horribly long post, I still cannot say for sure who I think is scummy or not. However, I’m still keeping an eye of Miztef,

and now on jitsu as well, based on my analysis

.

[bolding mine, for emphasis]

Gien how little else she's posted, and seeing how Miztef and I are the only people she's mentioned she was suspicious of after the random voting stage, this seems to put Miztef and I in her top two list of suspicious characters by default. At the very, very least, she has singled out Miztef and me above all others. And here she does cite her "analysis" (that is, post 153) as her reason for this.

OK , I can see how you might think that...

any comments on the rest of my post? Mexal's? Miz's?

[Jitsu]

OK , I can see how you might think that...

any comments on the rest of my post? Mexal's? Miz's?

Yes, but I want to reread first.

There are a lot of points in my initial read that I think I want to comment on, but the last few several posts especially had a lot of comments and talking points in them. Given that people are starting to talk about who is a good lynch, the stakes have gotten higher, so I want to take extra time to consider what was said.

[jerubbaal]

My impression is basically that karmadog is either mafia going after the easy lynches, or just has a grudge against me for voting him earlier.

I find this very ironic, as you decide to hop on the ckd train as soon as Mexal begins questioning his motives. Yes, it does seem very OMGUS-y, and very opportunistic.

My biggest thing against you is your switch of approach in the beginning. You start out hot, and even claim that everyone always thinks you're mafia in the early game. However, you catch heat from it almost immediately and then decide to back off and lay low (playing carefully, something you actually said that you do when you're mafia). You have avoided seriously entering into any of the discussions. You had a little spat with Korlash recently over nothing substantial, and now come in and suddenly jump on the one player who's had a vote on you all this time. I have seen absolutely nothing constructive from you in all this time. Until Mexal, the one who everyone's putting up as the great townie leader, expresses an opinion against ckd, you have done nothing, and all you're doing now is echoing suspicions from the one guy who everyone seems to think is a townie. You've done absolutely nothing to help the town, and, by your own confession, you're playing like you play when you're mafia. I really do not like this vote against ckd.

Unvote, Vote: Miztef

FoS or whatever the hell against Anata and Gunslinger. I really don't like their play either, but I'm willing to wait and see what they have to say.

Mexal, I'm actually really disappointed by your long rebuttal. The whole thing essentially a list of "why the hell can't I do this," and "how the hell can you say that," and long lists of rhetorical questions. This is simply not helpful posting. It takes a lot of wading to get to your actual points. The whole post is just this flood of questions.

I apologize if this is reductive, but I seem to understand that your post is primarily attacking ckd's assumption of Anata's laziness for the explanation for her action rather than questioning her motives. Laziness was my first reflex to explain her action as well, simply because her posting was completely inept. Whatever the post's goal was, to mislead, clarify, confuse, state suspicions, whatever, it was badly done and accomplished absolutely nothing other than to create suspicion. While incompetence cannot be used to excuse anti-town action, it is also not inherently scummy. I was content to place a pressure vote and wait for a response. I think laziness and ineptitude is certainly a possible reason, but you seem entirely convinced that she could have no other reason for posting as she did than to mislead and create suspicion. You actually go so far as to put words in Jitsu's mouth regarding this whole matter.

The reason I didn't mention it as apart of Jitsu's post is because I dont' think he believed it. He is new and he doesn't have the conviction in his cases more experienced players do. He was making excuses for her just in case he was wrong because he's not 100% sure. But I don't think he truly believes she's just lazy...I know I don't.

Let Jitsu speak for his own beliefs. If he does not state otherwise, I'm not going to assume that Jitsu is qualifying his suspicions simply because he's not sure. I was completely fine with your "I agree" post, but I really don't like it that you're going back and filling in what Jitsu "really" thought.

I've been impressed with the clarity and sense in your logic so far, Mexal, but this last post is really a disappointment. I think ckd might be somewhat inappropriate in overstating laziness as the likely cause for Anata's ineptitude, but I think you're also out of line in suggesting that the only possible interpretation for ineptitude is scum. It's a really easy argument to follow when a person never proves logically capable of defending themselves, or really even perceiving the arguments against them. Inept =/= scum. Inept needs to be answered and explained, but your logical leap is inappropriate. It's possible your interpretation is correct, but to refuse to acknowledge any other reasonable interpretation is entirely inappropriate.

[Mexal]

Mexal, I'm actually really disappointed by your long rebuttal. The whole thing essentially a list of "why the hell can't I do this," and "how the hell can you say that," and long lists of rhetorical questions. This is simply not helpful posting. It takes a lot of wading to get to your actual points. The whole post is just this flood of questions.

The questions weren't rhetorical. I'd love answers to them. They are all perfectly valid, especially considering the discussion being made. You didn't understand the point of my questioning Sudo either when I first went off on him. Why is it so hard to believe that I might be doing the same with curiouskarmadog? You're once again making assumptions of my intentions, the very thing that got you in trouble the first time with Sudo and the very thing you accuse me of doing later in your post.

I apologize if this is reductive, but I seem to understand that your post is primarily attacking ckd's assumption of Anata's laziness for the explanation for her action rather than questioning her motives. Laziness was my first reflex to explain her action as well, simply because her posting was completely inept. Whatever the post's goal was, to mislead, clarify, confuse, state suspicions, whatever, it was badly done and accomplished absolutely nothing other than to create suspicion. While incompetence cannot be used to excuse anti-town action, it is also not inherently scummy. I was content to place a pressure vote and wait for a response. I think laziness and ineptitude is certainly a possible reason, but you seem entirely convinced that she could have no other reason for posting as she did than to mislead and create suspicion. You actually go so far as to put words in Jitsu's mouth regarding this whole matter.

The reason I didn't mention it as apart of Jitsu's post is because I dont' think he believed it. He is new and he doesn't have the conviction in his cases more experienced players do. He was making excuses for her just in case he was wrong because he's not 100% sure. But I don't think he truly believes she's just lazy...I know I don't.

Let Jitsu speak for his own beliefs. If he does not state otherwise, I'm not going to assume that Jitsu is qualifying his suspicions simply because he's not sure. I was completely fine with your "I agree" post, but I really don't like it that you're going back and filling in what Jitsu "really" thought.

CKD believes that Anata was lazy in making her post. Your first reflex was that she was lazy. You, Jitsu, Korlash and CKD all believed that Sudo's post about the mass claim was completely innocent. Your first reflex seem to always be for the good. Mine isn't. Everyone here is scum until I find something that I like and clear them of that. I'm not perfect but I'm not bad either. While you might be able to attribute that post to laziness, I will not, especially not without answers from her. She had ample opportunity to answer the questions posed to her by Jitsu. Instead, when she came back, she focused on the 3 votes placed on her in quick succession. She didn't touch on any of the points brought against her. While you might be able to put that off as laziness, I don't. I put it off as avoidance of the issue at hand. Did I put words in Jitsu's mouth? Maybe. But that was my interpretation of his post, just like your interpretation of my Sudo post was that I was misreading it, just like your interpretation of my rebuttal post was that it was full of rhetorical questions and poor logic. We can play this game all day since this game is about interpretation, especially on day 1. We don't have ANY hard evidence. There are no vote analysis, no night actions, no confirmed town/scum. All we have is what people say and if we're constantly putting off things that look scummy down as being lazy, being stupid, being new, then we're never going to get past day 1. Call me frustrated because that's exactly what I am at this point.

I've been impressed with the clarity and sense in your logic so far, Mexal, but this last post is really a disappointment. I think ckd might be somewhat inappropriate in overstating laziness as the likely cause for Anata's ineptitude, but I think you're also out of line in suggesting that the only possible interpretation for ineptitude is scum. It's a really easy argument to follow when a person never proves logically capable of defending themselves, or really even perceiving the arguments against them. Inept =/= scum. Inept needs to be answered and explained, but your logical leap is inappropriate. It's possible your interpretation is correct, but to refuse to acknowledge any other reasonable interpretation is entirely inappropriate.

The problem is, everyone is inept. Gunslinger is inept. Sudo is inept. Miztef seems inept. Anata is inept. Korlash even seems inept on some points. This is pretty much a newbie game and if everything that looks scummy is considered inept, then how am I supposed to find scum? If I don't like something, I'm going to post about it, regardless of the experience level of the player. Random.org does not discriminate. It wouldn't be the first time a newbie played a scum role poorly. It's not the easiest thing to play in your first game, especially when you cannot talk with your partners during the day to help work out what you're supposed to be doing. This is the most likely time you'll notice mistakes by new scum...when they have no help from anyone else. So while you might see my post as a disappointment, I do not.

[Korlash]

Oh shit... What the hell guys... *bangs head on desk* Why do I even bother... Ok give me a bit and I'll do a read up... *sighs*

Wait wait wait... i remember seeing something directed at me in there somewhere... let me find it...

Lynch all Liars. You still make no sense to me.

How so? because I admit there is a possibility I am lying? I won't say that isn't a possibility. But if it was something else that doesn't make sense I will be glad to confuse you more... I mean explain it... >.> <.<

[NabakovNabakov]

Vote Count as of Post 323

Sudo_Nym (1):

GunglingerKB

Miztef (3):

curiouskarmadog, Abstract Actuary, jerubbaal

Anata112 (2):

Jitsu, Mexal

Not Voting (5):

Jayalay, Anata112, Korlash, oEJo, Sudo_Nym

12 alive, 7 will lynch.

Anata112 has also requested a replacement.

Prods going out to negligent players (you know who you are) tomorrow. If you would like to avoid the indignity, please post of your own free will.