Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!

[jerubbaal]

Well this is really damning. It kinda shoots down that whole just lazy/dumb thing that myself and others have been pushing. She does seem to have aroused everyone's suspicion, again, in this one, but she is at least addressing the arguments that are placed against her. She never did so much here. Nice find Jitsu. We seem to be in kind of a lull right now, waiting for replacements so we can decide between our two likely lynch candidates, so maybe now is the time to do some serious meta-work.

I would be pleased with either a Miztef or Anata lynch at this point, but honestly I'm leaning a bit toward Anata after Jitsu's last find. I'll stay where I am for the moment, but if there's enough momentum gathering for an Anata lynch, I'll happily jump on.

[Mexal]

Well this is really damning. It kinda shoots down that whole just lazy/dumb thing that myself and others have been pushing. She does seem to have aroused everyone's suspicion, again, in this one, but she is at least addressing the arguments that are placed against her. She never did so much here. Nice find Jitsu. We seem to be in kind of a lull right now, waiting for replacements so we can decide between our two likely lynch candidates, so maybe now is the time to do some serious meta-work.

I would be pleased with either a Miztef or Anata lynch at this point, but honestly I'm leaning a bit toward Anata after Jitsu's last find. I'll stay where I am for the moment, but if there's enough momentum gathering for an Anata lynch, I'll happily jump on.

Hehe, you know me I'm always up for an Anata lynch.

[Miztef]

That's actually really impressive Jitsu. I wasn't all that suspicious of anata before, but this actually amps it up a good chunk.

@korlash: That is definately the oddest post I've seen all game. With basically no true content as well....

I'm disliking CKD more and more as the game goes on. Too emotional and aggravates more then looks for scum. The attack on Sudo for example, maybe Sudo just didn't post everything he thinks about the game at that time. I don't see why there was a need to attack that post.

Aggravation posts:

and if it is too much for you, maybe you need to ask for a replacement too.

why bother correcting a mistake?

out of our three pages of arguements, these two points are the only things you got out of it?

I don't know what it's called, but CDK continually makes comments about his emotional state on things, as if it will get his point across better.

...Will I feel like an ass? No. ...

I am tired of the town...

...I have gotten fustrated with this game and there are tons of lenghty posts...

He has also kept a somewhat defensive stance towards anata:

Clearly, if Anata is guilty of anything it is being lazy...On a different note, I find it interesting that she got 3 votes back to back so quickly when this game has two quite scummy players just floating around. Please explain to me, how being lazy is scummy. Granted it is not very pro-town, but scummy? How is Anata’s laziness any different from Oejo or Gunslinger? I think Jitsu made some good points, but I think that a lot of this case revolves around game theory versus actual scum actions and assumptions. I can agree with some of Jitsu’s points without being compelled to place a 4th vote on Anata. I think she has adequate amount of pressure on her at the moment (as jitsu said about Gunslinger and Mitzef). Does this mean I wont change my mind about her later and vote her? No, I just want to keep my vote on who I actual think is scum.

I dont think Anata is scummy at this point (dont have a problem with her). Her actions (or lack thereof) have been noted. ....

....All that being said (quoted) I think Anata is a newbie/lazy/trying to look town. I don’t think that being lazy=scummy. I think being lazy =useless and not very helpful. Trying to look town is different. This is a scum move to be sure, but it could also mean other things….all of it are assumptions. It is note worthy, but not enough for me to vote. .....

A particularly interesting quote is:

"Wow Anata was town, well, CKD must of known she was town that is why he defended her to look town"

or

"See Anata WAS scum, so CKD must have been defending her because they are buddies.."

It is lose/lose for me...

This is upsurd as evidence against me. Everyone would be suspicious of you anyway if she turns up scum. It doesn't matter that if I say that. It doesn't make me look more innocent if she turns up town at all. I would assume it makes me look a little a more town if she turns up scum though. I think I'm getting into WIFOM here though.

He then says:

Mex, you want information? I am actively pushing for a Mitzef lynch....if he IS town, wont that make me look mighty suspicious? This guy is all types of scum.

That's true... but why would you want me dead if you only gain information on your own alignment if I turn up town. What info do YOU gain if I turn up town?


I'm inclined to believe anata is quite likely scum at this time. Should she turn up town, That would lift a lot of suspicion off CKD for me. Should she turn up scum, I would be very hard pressed to believe CKD is not scum.

This is my attempt at a case against someone. I hope it's not full of flaws, but as you have all seen, I'm not particularly good at presenting my arguments (or even making them).

[Jitsu]

One clarification I need to make:

Anata signed up in the newbie game queue Oct 15, just minutes before she signed up in the Mini queue for this game. Therefore, the signup itself was not suspicious, and she had intended to play in both games, obvious. (My previous post was not trying to say that she signed up for that game after she dropped out of this game -- most of you probably know that already because of the queue waiting times, but I did want to clarify this to make my position clear.

What I was pointing suspicion at was how she dropped out of this game sometime between last weekend and Monday of this week, combined with the fact that her activity level in the newbie game jumped dramatically since Monday morning. Not to mention, how her play style in that game seems to contradict how she acted here.

I try to be careful when meta-gaming, as all games are different, but I still feel that this information is too much to ignore.

Right now I am leaning to putting my vote back on Anata, but I want to finish rereading first to see if I can get a better picture on some of the other players I haven't paid much attention to yet.

[Jitsu]

And yet again, you're trying to make my vote on Anata seem invalid. You must have a massive hard on for her or something.

Who doesn't? Rowl! Kitty wants some candy!:twisted: (I couldn't resist... Man... I'm going to hell for sure XD)

Come on now, people. There's really no place in the game for comments like this. There are quite a few female players here on Mafiascum, and these kinds of comments are really, really unfair to them. I'd hate for any female players to feel uncomfortable playing here and leave the site because of comments like these. Let's try be a little more respectful to them, shall we?

Also... I just thought of it... The worst game in history of mafia... Vollkan, Jitsu, and Gemelli! O.o... One day of those three would make even the most hardcore mafia fans wet themselves... I think my head would just explode... all over the wall... like... *shudders*

Um... thanks, I think...

... It is way to scary for even me... I think one day of them posting would be like a combined.. 480,000 words, 12,456 numbers, 50,000 "%" signs, and like... 15,678,452 opportunities for your eyes to begin bleeding... AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! MAKE IT STOP!!!!!

I shall try to keep the eye bleeding to a minimum.

[curiouskarmadog]

I decided to do some checking up on a few things.

It might be interesting for some of you to know that Anata has joined newbie game #498 and she had made 5 posts since Monday morning.

She admits she is a newbie there, but she seems to be defending herself fairly well there -- see post 58.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &&start=50

I am still rereading, but I don't like this at all. It is possible that she was an overwhelmed newbie townie, but she wasn't under THAT much pressure. I think the heat got to her and she bailed.

JITSU!!!..you cant reference other ONGOING games..it is a modkill-able offense...you should have said something like "everyone needs to meta game Anata, you might find something interesting"....

[Mexal]

I'm not seeing that in the rules on the first page.

I've never seen anyone modkilled for meta-gaming a player based on other games on the site.

[curiouskarmadog]

jesus,

there could be many reason while she left this game (and joined other)..one could be she is scum and couldnt handle the pressure..

mostly likely she has a boring role(vanilla town) and is lazy because she doesnt want to take the effort to defend such a boring role..

at any rate, Jitsu, I assume you didnt know it was a modkill-able offense...you really should PM the mod and let him know it is there..

[Mexal]

jesus,

there could be many reason while she left this game (and joined other)..one could be she is scum and couldnt handle the pressure..

mostly likely she has a boring role(vanilla town) and is lazy because she doesnt want to take the effort to defend such a boring role..

at any rate, Jitsu, I assume you didnt know it was a modkill-able offense...you really should PM the mod and let him know it is there..

Anymore excuses you have for her?

Btw, on a side topic, anyone who doesn't play the game because they got a vanilla townie shouldn't be playing the game in the first place. The vanilla role is VERY MUCH apart of Mafia and if you can't stand that role (odds are you will have that role more times than not) then you shouldn't be playing. Playing that role is the only way you'll ever improve at the game and you should embrace the challenge of it instead of relying on the crux of a role.

[curiouskarmadog]

I'm not seeing that in the rules on the first page.

I've never seen anyone modkilled for meta-gaming a player based on other games on the site.

Global Rules.

viewtopic.php?t=6470

[Mexal]

I'm not seeing that in the rules on the first page.

I've never seen anyone modkilled for meta-gaming a player based on other games on the site.

Global Rules.

viewtopic.php?t=6470

Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where allowed to do so by your role.

Do you mean this one? If so, I take it to mean don't talk about the current ongoing game that you're in outside the thread. Meaning, don't go discussing the game where players in your game can see it and might get spoiled. I've seen rules like that before and they tend to address that issue, not the one you're talking about. Regardless, Jitsu wasn't aware (if your interpretation is correct) and shouldn't be modkilled for it.

[curiouskarmadog]

jesus,

there could be many reason while she left this game (and joined other)..one could be she is scum and couldnt handle the pressure..

mostly likely she has a boring role(vanilla town) and is lazy because she doesnt want to take the effort to defend such a boring role..

at any rate, Jitsu, I assume you didnt know it was a modkill-able offense...you really should PM the mod and let him know it is there..

Btw, on a side topic, anyone who doesn't play the game because they got a vanilla townie shouldn't be playing the game in the first place. The vanilla role is VERY MUCH apart of Mafia and if you can't stand that role (odds are you will have that role more times than not) then you shouldn't be playing. Playing that role is the only way you'll ever improve at the game and you should embrace the challenge of it instead of relying on the crux of a role.

this is one of the first things I completely agree with you about...I hate replacements too, especially when I think one is scum (so if you are town and really think Anata is scum, I feel your pain).

most likely she just didnt have a defense and didnt want to bother arguing over a vanilla role...

right now we are all in a shitty position, needing 3 replacements...NabNab is pretty cool so I doubt he will modkill you (especially because I dont think Jitsu knew the rule and we need 3 replacements as is)...but you should PM him to let him know anyway.

[Mexal]

most likely she just didnt have a defense and didnt want to bother arguing over a vanilla role...

It's not most likely so stop saying that. It's likely...as likely as she was scum and couldn't handle the pressure of mounting a defense because she didn't know how. You can call it an option but to say it's most likely is misleading.

[curiouskarmadog]

most likely she just didnt have a defense and didnt want to bother arguing over a vanilla role...

It's not most likely so stop saying that. It's likely...as likely as she was scum and couldn't handle the pressure of mounting a defense because she didn't know how. You can call it an option but to say it's most likely is misleading.

Just curious..

how many games have you played? How many games have you read?

[curiouskarmadog]

I'm not seeing that in the rules on the first page.

I've never seen anyone modkilled for meta-gaming a player based on other games on the site.

Global Rules.

viewtopic.php?t=6470

Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where allowed to do so by your role.

Do you mean this one? If so, I take it to mean don't talk about the current ongoing game that you're in outside the thread. Meaning, don't go discussing the game where players in your game can see it and might get spoiled. I've seen rules like that before and they tend to address that issue, not the one you're talking about. Regardless, Jitsu wasn't aware (if your interpretation is correct) and shouldn't be modkilled for it.

people get mod killed or at least warned about it...I cant quote it (it has happened twice in two of my current games)...but it is a BIG no no here.

[Mexal]

most likely she just didnt have a defense and didnt want to bother arguing over a vanilla role...

It's not most likely so stop saying that. It's likely...as likely as she was scum and couldn't handle the pressure of mounting a defense because she didn't know how. You can call it an option but to say it's most likely is misleading.

Just curious..

how many games have you played? How many games have you read?

I have played around 15-20 on 3 different sites with 3 different sets of customs. As for games I've read, maybe 10 on top of that?

Why?

[curiouskarmadog]

I'm not seeing that in the rules on the first page.

I've never seen anyone modkilled for meta-gaming a player based on other games on the site.

Global Rules.

viewtopic.php?t=6470

Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where allowed to do so by your role.

Do you mean this one? If so, I take it to mean don't talk about the current ongoing game that you're in outside the thread. Meaning, don't go discussing the game where players in your game can see it and might get spoiled. I've seen rules like that before and they tend to address that issue, not the one you're talking about. Regardless, Jitsu wasn't aware (if your interpretation is correct) and shouldn't be modkilled for it.

you are not suppose to talk about an ongoing game outside of it's thread (or game)..Jitsu provided a reference to the game outside of that game's thread...NabNab probably can explain the rule better.

[curiouskarmadog]

most likely she just didnt have a defense and didnt want to bother arguing over a vanilla role...

It's not most likely so stop saying that. It's likely...as likely as she was scum and couldn't handle the pressure of mounting a defense because she didn't know how. You can call it an option but to say it's most likely is misleading.

Just curious..

how many games have you played? How many games have you read?

I have played around 15-20 on 3 different sites with 3 different sets of customs. As for games I've read, maybe 10 on top of that?

Why?

how many times have you seen someone asked to be replaced in a game (when they were mafia or a power role) and then go start another game?
vs.
versus seeing someone who had a boring townie role, asks to be replaced, and start another game.

many people play this game just to be mafia or power roles...I agree with you that they shouldnt play...but it is very common for people to quit when they get bored of their vanilla townie role..

the fact that she quit here and started another game, does in no way indicate she is scummy...

[Mexal]

how many times have you seen someone asked to be replaced in a game (when they were mafia or a power role) and then go start another game?
vs.
versus seeing someone who had a boring townie role, asks to be replaced, and start another game.

many people play this game just to be mafia or power roles...I agree with you that they shouldnt play...but it is very common for people to quit when they get bored of their vanilla townie role..

the fact that she quit here and started another game, does in no way indicate she is scummy...

I'll put it this way. I've seen people replaced with every kind of role, vanilla, cop, scum, doc, ect. Hell, I've had a game where every single person was replaced in pretty much, including myself who replaced in as a cop. I have never once checked though to see if they immediately started another game after they asked for a replacement. So I can't answer your question.

[curiouskarmadog]

fair enough...I think it is safe to say that at this point, you have tunnel vision on Anata and think I am scum defending her.

I have tunnel vision on Mitzef...and dont understand why you cant see he is the lynch of the day...yes, I know you have voted him, but I just dont understand why you are not atacking him like you are attacking someone who has asked for a replacement and is not here...

our views are simply different...where do you want to go from here?


ooc/
what do you do in DC that you can post in the middle of the day?

[Jitsu]

First, to comment, I did not see the global rule about communication about other ongoing games. I did not intend to break any rules, and I read the rules on page 1 of this game carefully. I have seen lots of people quote posts from other games and I figured the information was publicly available anyway. I did not realize that it made a difference whether the game was ongoing or not.

If the Mod wants to Modkill me for it, so be it.

Until such time, I will continue to post.

And to prove that I am not hiding:

@Mod: Please review this post and take whatever action you feel is necessary.

[Jitsu]

Just to make it perfectly clear:

MOD: Please read the previous post and take whatever action you feel is necessary.

[Mexal]

fair enough...I think it is safe to say that at this point, you have tunnel vision on Anata and think I am scum defending her.

I have tunnel vision on Mitzef...and dont understand why you cant see he is the lynch of the day...yes, I know you have voted him, but I just dont understand why you are not atacking him like you are attacking someone who has asked for a replacement and is not here...

our views are simply different...where do you want to go from here?


ooc/
what do you do in DC that you can post in the middle of the day?

Not really tunnel-visioned. I've recognized other suspects and I'm voting one. I haven't attacked him because you have and I don't see the need. I see the inconsistencies in his posts and to point them out again and wrap him in logical traps just doesn't seem worth it since I know it'll be easy. This is no knock on Miztef, it's just that he's new and I'm not. I'm voting him now because it's impossible to ignore the inept nature of his posts, regardless of the fact that I don't necessarily believe he's scum. He could be and it's day 1. Honestly, I'm fine lynching him, even before all the replacements join the game.

I'm not really attacking Anata. I think she's scum. I don't see what the big deal about it is. I thought she was scum before the replacement so I don't really believe it has anything to do with it. She had her opportunity to address the concerns raised against her and she chose not to, both in game and by requesting a replacement. I rather lynch her than Miztef specifically because she did request a replacement and it'd do two things. 1. Eliminate the need for a replacement and 2. Eliminate the need to judge the replacement separately from Anata. If she's town, we learn a lot. If she's scum, we learn a lot. Miztef will be here tomorrow, she won't. It just seems like the more prudent move to eliminate someone who we think is scum without the need to revise all our suspicions because of a replacement.


As for the OOC question, I work at Thomson Corporation dealing with transactional law filings (companies buying other companies) for a product called Westlaw Business. I'm in front of a computer all day without a firewall so I can do whatever I want.

[Jitsu]

Wait a minute. Something just started buzzing in my brain. I could get lynched just for saying this, but I have to follow the logic to the conclusion.

Given the meta-game information I found, I started to re-read, and something stood out a bit me.

For the few posts she made, Anata also spent some time attacking Miztef also. In #105, Anata attacks Miztef's meta-game comments on his own play style. Most of us thought it was a good post (Mexal even says so in #109).

In #153, she is throwing more suspicion on Miztef here as well. And actually, it is not dissimilar to how she threw it on me. The argument itself is not terribly distorted that I can see, but yet it is hardly compelling. I didn't pay much attention to it at the time, because I already thought Miztef was scummy at that point. She basically seems to accuse Miztef of doing a bad job of blending in with the town, which is pretty close to what she says about me (about whether I was that good of a scumhunter or just trying to act townie).

She never mentions Miztef again after that.

Then there's Mexal's #370:

1. Even after his posts get ripped apart...every single one pretty much, he comes back with yet another post that's easily ripped apart. Why? Wouldn't it just be easier to fade into the background instead of setting yourself up even more?

This is a very, very good question. I remember agreeing with it when I first read it, but then I lost it in the ongoing Mexal/CKD battle. Even on the brink of a lynch, he still has not hidden and has even expressed understanding if the town lynched him, though granted he was making other scummy-looking posts around that time. Also, he never seems to deny any of his scummy behavior and admits to it time and time again.

Then in #362 Mexal says that if Anata is scum, maybe Miztef is town.

Plus, there are two more things.

CKD is really, really pushing hard for a Miztef lynch, and continued to attack Mexal even after Mexal changed his vote to Miztef. I still find that odd.

And then Miztef himself. After being horribly scummy for the first part of the game and playing to save himself, the overall scumminess of his posts have dropped somewhat, and his recent posts have looked like they could actually be trying to help.

If Anata is innocent, then none of the above information is particularly helpful.

But let's suppose for a minute that she actually is scum. One possibility then, is that both her and Miztef are scum and they are bussing each other to some degree (both have attacked or raised suspicion on the other at some point). If I understand bussing correctly, one or more scum cast suspicion on another scum to damage their reputation in order to look more townie. However, scum pointing fingers at each other, though possible, would seem to be a bad play on Day 1, as there is a decent chance that the town will believe at least one of the two.

The other possibility is... and I can't believe I'm saying this... That Miztef is innocent and has been framed (first by Anata, and then *possibly* by CKD -- remember that CKD has been saying that we should be taking Miztef seriously for a good while now). Could it actually be possible that Miztef has just been a bad townie player and has actually been innocent all this time?

I want to be absolutely clear: I certainly don't condone Miztef's highly scummy behavior this game, and I still think right now he is a decent lynch for all the scummy things he's done.

I am not willing to say that CKD is scum yet, as I don't have good evidence to support that. I still think it is possible that Miztef is really scum, and CKD could just be an aggressive townie pursuing someone who is obviously scummy and doesn't want them to slip into the cracks. It would also seem to not make sense that CKD would push so hard for a Miztef lynch if he knew Miztef were innocent -- he would naturally attract a lot of suspicion on Day 2 for it, so that is an inconsistency I acknowledge. But I don't think it is enough of one to derail the case on Anata.

With these thoughts, I think Anata is definitely the better play. I still think there is a chance she could have been a townie, as the case against her is hardly airtight, but either way, she looks scummy and seems to tell us the most information.

I will still support a Miztef lynch if we cannot get one on Anata, as I promised. But I still think that Anata is the better play for the town today.

Given that there is a probable lull before the replacements arrive, and all of my recent observations, I will:

Vote: Anata112

[curiouskarmadog]

First, to comment, I did not see the global rule about communication about other ongoing games. I did not intend to break any rules, and I read the rules on page 1 of this game carefully. I have seen lots of people quote posts from other games and I figured the information was publicly available anyway. I did not realize that it made a difference whether the game was ongoing or not.

If the Mod wants to Modkill me for it, so be it.

Until such time, I will continue to post.

And to prove that I am not hiding:

@Mod: Please review this post and take whatever action you feel is necessary.

I dont think you did it on purpose and you are right, it is not in this game rules (but it is a global rule)..I doubt Nab will modkill, especially since we are trying to get 2-3 replacements..you only did it once (which is why I warned you).

referencing old games is ok (though I see it rarely), you just can not reference ongoing games.