Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!

[Korlash]

Dang... four posts.. in a row... I need to figure out a system for this game.. Good thign Gunslinger got here in time...

Ok... On that note:

I would say that our best lynch options for today would be mitzef or anata. There have been many points made over the course of these pages, and Mitz and anata have both done suspicious things. The way i figure, Anata would be a good first day choice. She clearly made some summy statements, and we all have picked up on them.

So you come in, say "I agree that either of the two names I keep seeing you guys talk about are good choices but this player is a better choice for no apparent reasons at all!" And then... leave it at that... Sure I am not the best player to post good, reason filled posts, but I never suggest lynches based on nothing at all... either take the time to reread and cite specific examples, or stay out of the current discussions like I am. You don't help things by putting in useless opinions.

(And yes I know I do it all the time but I try to only do it if I am 100% up to date with what is going on and have a pretty good understanding of my feelings on the situations.)

[Mexal]

Or that is my take on it... let's say Anata is town who did for some reason get caught up... If any of the above happen we could more or less lose a very good replacement player. I mean you all said something about her being "lazy" or something right? Perhaps her replacement will be a bit more like Mexal or Jitsu or something... Wouldn't it be nice to give him or her a chance instead of automatically assuming they are scum right off the start?

My problem is if her replacement is anything like me and she is scum, he'll easily spin himself out of a lynch. It's not hard to say, look, I'm not Anata, I don't know what she was thinking when she posted these things, maybe she was lazy then move on and make a case against someone to make it look like they're participating. That's why I don't want a replacement and would rather lynch.

And for the record, I think there is like 1 vote on Anata so I have no idea where you got L-2 from.

[Korlash]

Really? I just saw Jitsu vote her and I thought she already had 2... So in my mind I saw her with 3 votes.. yeah the last mod vote count was on page 13 but jitsu was one of those voting.. hmmm...

MOD:

Hows about an up to date vote count?

I was more worried about people continuing to vote for her and not what she was voted right now... But yeah I see your point.

[Mexal]

Really? I just saw Jitsu vote her and I thought she already had 2... So in my mind I saw her with 3 votes.. yeah the last mod vote count was on page 13 but jitsu was one of those voting.. hmmm...

MOD:

Hows about an up to date vote count?

I was more worried about people continuing to vote for her and not what she was voted right now... But yeah I see your point.

The problem is, people aren't continuing to vote for her. You're not reading the thread and that can be annoying, especially when you make posts like your previous ones. There has only been 3 votes on Anata. 1 from me, 1 from Jitsu and 1 from jerubbaal. On that same page, jerubbaal took off his vote. I took off my vote a few pages back and moved it to Miztef. Jitsu removed his vote then just recently put his vote back on. That's 1 vote. I don't need a vote count to know this because there hasn't been a lot of people voting for her. You should know this as well. The highest she was at all game was 3 votes, which is another 2 votes away from being at L-2 and that was BEFORE page 13.

Why are you worried about people continuing to vote for her? I think I've laid out exactly why we should vote for her. I don't know if people will, but I believe what I've said and you've yet to disagree. So again, why are you worried?

[Korlash]

I told you I was mistaken... Plain and simple... If she is only at one vote then thats cool. I just saw Jitsu vote her after it was said she had a replacement coming and I didn't know if it had or will be the trend.

[Jitsu]

Here's how I see it.

I really do not think I can make a stronger case against Anata today. I've made all of the points I think I can from her existing posts and metagame info, and as others have said, if a replacement is found for her, I cannot expect to get any reliable information from the replacement about what Anata did (more on that below).

Yes, it will suck if a replacement comes in for her and then would get lynched anyway -- it's true that would be unfair for the replacement. But let's remember that Anata is the one that put her potential replacement in a bad situation. While I feel bad for her potential replacement in this case (I really do), I don't feel it is fair to the town if I give her replacement a free pass today, either. I am here to find the scum and help win the game for the town. I thought she was scummy and a good lynch for potential information even before she left, and with the other information I uncovered, I feel even stronger about that now. I feel she is the best lynch for the town, so that's really where my vote needs to be now. I cannot control what the other players do.

And getting back to the replacement -- it is very unfair (and unreliable) to ask a replacement why Anata did what she did. The replacement will only know what's in the thread, plus Anata's role (and the identities of the other scum, if she is scum). Other than this, Anata's replacement wouldn't know anything more about why Anata did what she did than we do. Unless the replacement slips up really badly, there's really not much of a chance to get any more usable information from him/her about Anata, other than a potential role claim. Of course, the replacement will probably try to say whatever s/he thinks will get them out of a potential lynch, so we have to remember that his/her words are likely to be biased because of that.

I don't think it is bad to wait for a replacement to arrive for Jayalay and oEJo to get their opinions on things (at this stage of the game, their votes may be needed to lynch someone). But I don't see how waiting for a replacement for Anata will help form a better opinion on a lynch for her, given that any explanation the replacement would give for Anata's behavior would probably be unreliable (with the possible exception of a role claim).

I don't think I need to repeat my case against Anata right now. I think most of the players here already know what it is already. If one of the existing or replacement players wants me to summarize the case against her to decide whom to vote for, I will do it then. I feel that the case I've made against Anata, while not airtight, is strong enough to put my vote back on her, so I did.

If I am correct, Anata should have 2 votes on her right now (Miztef, Jitsu). Miztef should be at 4 votes (CKD, AA, Jerub, Mexal). I am not worried that the vote count is going to skyrocket. Mexal and Jerubbaal seem to have already stated where they are on a lynch, but are holding steady at the moment. I don't predict much will happen until some of the players who have not voted yet declare their intentions and cast their votes.

[Sudo_Nym]

Sorry for the lack of response from me; I was waiting for the replacement to come in, but it didn't happen as quickly as I would like. I have to say, this is the most content heavy game I've ever been in, and it's difficult to keep up sometimes between classes.

In any event, I'm really happy to see Jitsu's large posts- however, I'm not sure that we needed a wall on why we should wait to see opinions about anata, since such a thing could have been said more succinctly and more persuasively in a shorter form. I've seen scum post large posts on tiny points to look impressive (and townie). I don't think that's what's happening here, but I have seen it.

[Mexal]

Sorry for the lack of response from me; I was waiting for the replacement to come in, but it didn't happen as quickly as I would like. I have to say, this is the most content heavy game I've ever been in, and it's difficult to keep up sometimes between classes.

In any event, I'm really happy to see Jitsu's large posts- however, I'm not sure that we needed a wall on why we should wait to see opinions about anata, since such a thing could have been said more succinctly and more persuasively in a shorter form. I've seen scum post large posts on tiny points to look impressive (and townie). I don't think that's what's happening here, but I have seen it.

Don't wait for a replacement. That could be a week or two. There are a ton of other games that need replacements as well.

[NabakovNabakov]

Apologies, I was busy yesterday.

Vote Count as of Post 457

Sudo_Nym (1):

GunglingerKB

Miztef (4):

curiouskarmadog, Abstract Actuary, jerubbaal, Mexal

Anata112 (2):

Jitsu, Miztef

Not Voting (5):

Jayalay, Anata112, Korlash, oEJo, Sudo_Nym

12 alive, 7 will lynch.

Please do not reference ongoing games. It:
A) Allows people who aren't in the game to influence it through commentary
B) Provides information and tells where some players might not look

As far as I can tell, the case in this thread was a harmless mistake. The post has been edited. Don't do it again.

[Sudo_Nym]

I know I shouldn't wait here; usually, it isn't a problem to wait, but that's not gonna work here, as the game moves quickly.

[jerubbaal]

Sorry, it's been a while since I've checked the thread, but I really don't think much has changed. Hurrah to see Gunslinger back, at least there's one that we don't have to hunt down. I'm still torn on an Anata/Miztef lynch, but I think there's adequate cause for either.

As far as the Anata replacement situation, I don't think we'll really get much from the replacement that we can find useful. We need to decide now if the contributions of Anata to this point are adequate cause to lynch her (I think most agree that they are) rather than looking to her replacement for adequate answers to our problems with Anata. Since the cat's out of the bag regarding her other posting, I find it much less incompetent than what she did here, so the incompetence excuse doesn't hold much water any more. It's kinda tricky, because Anata's guilt/innocence translate to her replacement, but her content does not, so we need to evaluate them independently. Any cases on Anata will be solely on the information she has posted currently, which seems to be sufficiently scummy, and we should be careful about allowing the content of her replacement justify her comments.

Still, Miztef has been adequately scummy as well, and his case seems to be more straight-forward (ckd says it best, look at his stuff, I need not rehash). I feel like I can stand more confidently on that case than a lot of the ambiguity in Anata's case, but maybe that's just because I made some of the case on Miztef as well. Anyhow, that's where my vote lies now.

I do not anticipate posting much until Monday, so hope all goes well until then. I'd be surprised if much more happened before the replacements showed up. It doesn't seem like much has happened lately, and I've missed a couple days.

[Korlash]

Well to be honest I just replaced into a game that had already lasted... 43 pages I think... And the guy I replaced was... how to put it... the obvious lynch choice... So I do admit I am a little biased come replacements and why I am so jumpy at voting a player being replaced...
(

Hey Mod

does this count as talking about on going games? did not mention game name, did not mention players, did not mention actions, just metaed it... but still paranoia kicked in... have to ask here... If so can we just delete it and I swear never to do it again? If not I still swear never to do it again...)

Oh a sidet note I still have not really seen anything I feel deems Anata worthy of a lynch. This makes me think a reread is in order and so... Looks like that is what I will be doing tomorrow...

Also on a side note I find CKD more suspicious then Miztef right now... I will also try and outline that in detail tomorrow... for now I shall go /wrists seeing as how I just spent 2 hours on a post that wont get up because of a hammer and a locked thread ;_;... Yeah... Funny cause it's true...

*cries*

[NabakovNabakov]

(Hey Mod does this count as talking about on going games? did not mention game name, did not mention players, did not mention actions, just metaed it... but still paranoia kicked in... have to ask here... If so can we just delete it and I swear never to do it again? If not I still swear never to do it again...)

It's best to err on the side of caution. If it feels like you're probably in the grey, it's best to drop it. Metas are perfectly fine, just do them on games that are already over.

[Korlash]

KK thanks... I'll keep my talk off anything that deals with an active game...

Wait... that means... I cannot talk about this game! T_T

=D

[Sudo_Nym]

Gunslinger is wonky, to use his own phrase against him, but I don't know that he's scummy, as it were. His original cases (for me and Jitsu) were a little silly; and he switches to me rather quickly when Mexal turns the tide. If Mexal is scum, then gunslinger probably is too, but I don't think it goes the other way, if you understand what I mean.

On re-read, Anata doesn't seem so bad; a bit misguided, and could be fooling me. But my scum-detecter didn't go so high on her after re-reading.

oEJo's absence bothers me a little; he was in a game or two with me (now over), and was active. Why he'd be active there, and leave here confuses me, but I don't know that it's scummy.

Most people who request replacement so early fall into one of the following catergories:
-People who have townie roles, and think that's too boring.
-People who drew a scum role for the first time, and are scared, so they quit.
-People who have real life issues.

Now it obviously impossible to know which catergory a person falls into in the middle of a game, and even afterwards it's tricky, and occasionally you get someone who falls into a smaller catergory, such as people who suddenly lose internet access or something, so this isn't an all-inclusive list, nor is it in order of frequency.

[Korlash]

Yeah and it more or less becomes a moot point that only wastes the town's time debating it...

[Miztef]

I'm pretty sure this day is basically over. We need lynch info. This game is just stalling now.

[Mexal]

I'm pretty sure this day is basically over. We need lynch info. This game is just stalling now.

Yup and it's going to continue to stall because we're missing almost half the players in the game.

Nothing from AA, oEJo, Gunslinger, Anata.

[Mexal]

EBWOP: And nothing from Jayalay

[Korlash]

Yeah we have 3 players that each have replacements on the way yes? The day is more or less at a stand still until we get that fixed because any point anyone brings up will more or less be directed to that by the attacked.

*sigh*

Of course we can try to focus merely on an active... You guys can step up on me if you want.. without enough active players to lynch though I find any pressure at all will be worthless and more or less any discussion will stall out...

*random insult at Mexal* =D

kidding...
>.> <.<

[GunslingerKB]

Oh yeah...it was kinda mixed in, but bolded, I unvoted at the end of page 18.

I have to say that I agree with all of Mexals and Jitsus posts on this page about Anata being the lynch for today. If we let a replacement jump in, if they are anything like Mexal they could, as he said, just spin right out of it.

And , i too agree this day is probably only stalling at this point. I also dont see too much harm in this, as it seems that most people are okay with it.

Vote: Anata

[Korlash]

Yeah... I don't want to keep seeming like I am defending Anata here but that is more or less another "I agree with what they said" vote... You all know my feelings on that matter already...

But if you guys feel so confident in whatever case you have against her go ahead... I will be saying I told you so tomorrow... bank on it...

I have to say that I agree with all of Mexals and Jitsus

posts on this page

about Anata being the lynch for today.

Ok I decided to be fair and look at each of Jitsu's and Mexal's points for Anata being today's lynch on THIS PAGE! to be honest... there is not a single point on this page of why she is in anyway scum... Only points on why replacements should not be given any chance to defend themselves and should be lynched before joining... (Exaggeration I know but you get my point more or less =D)

So

Unvote:, Vote: GunslingerKB

Your vote was not even an "I agree with them!" vote... it was an "I agree with their points that I didn't even read" vote... I will be honest I still have to go back and fully read your case against Anata, but Gunslinger just said his reasons were on this page and yet there are none.. so he is a liar, and is more or less acting strange and scummy to me...

More on the Anata case I think... If I am going to keep up this "defense" of her I might as well know the case right? =D Her replacement better give me money... I like 100's!

And to further prove my point I give for your viewing pleasure some of post 449:

We should give them a chance, and especially get their unbiased opinions.

Come on... Contradiction? Hypocrite? Liar? Mistake? (Yeah I am an ass )

[Korlash]

Alright working backwards...

I see a little meta on her... More or less... If his was a trial.. we would have to ignore it. But seeing as how we know it might as well use it... and it proves:

Nothing at all... many many many things could be happening as Sudo has shown... While you can argue she could have been a scum afraid of being lynched, she very well could have been a town who got fed up with your houndings... An attack like this that has an equal chance of being both sides... Kinda pointless... So far no real case.. I shall keep looking!

I see people admitting her post was more or less a summary.. neither scummy nor towny... no case still...

Jitsu
... After checking for new posts, he agrees that sudo_nym shouldn’t have proposed the mass claim, but he was the one that asked sudo_nym what his ideas were. Am I wrong here?

Clearly she did have a good point against Jitsu... Could be why he has been pushing her... It all means nothing really, just a small thing on Jitsu that proved nothing. But it does make you think how accurate some other of his claims could be... Hmmm... (This going backwards thing is totally cool... so used to going forwards when I reread XD)

I don't buy it. You are making the assumption that she is lazy. You don't know her, you don't know her style yet you can accurately say in 10 posts that she's being lazy. How do you know this? What about her analysis suggests this? The fact that she doesn't know the reasons behind Sudo? The fact that she's leaving out major events in the game while focusing on the minute? Why can't that be calculated? Why can't she be a newbie scum trying to look town by focusing on details that are irrelevant to the main conversation because one of the people in the conversation is scum with her? Is that so far out of the realm of possibility that we automatically assume she's lazy?

Thats a good possibility... Try this one... Why can't she be a new town who does not understand the difference between main points and little details? To her it could very well all seem the same.
Or this: She could be town who thinks the big issues are more of less covered already so she comes at it from a different angle!
Or: She is a VERY good mafia player and thinks that by missing the main points she can more or less keep attention off herself!

All kinda wack theories if you ask me... one of them has to be kinda close I think... So basically the case so far is she seems scummy for missing the major points... I can see that, definitely not worth lynching... but some case at least...

“Why do I have to post follow up questions when Anata doesn't even address the post that was made against her?”

So... your saying she hasn't talked for a while... and now she is getting replaced... so... She... Is scummy.. for not talking... when she was getting replaced?

Seems a bit odd...

This actually makes me want to find out just how far back we have to go to find a real case against her... and that brings me to post 324 in which we are told she is being replaced... that was 6 pages ago!!!! 6 pages! So... more or less anything after that are attacks that could not be answered... So I personally think anything after that point is more or less not a case... Dangit! Now I hate this backwards thing...

*Sigh*... So it isn't my fault I have no idea what your guy's case is... it's been too long...

Anyways her last post seems to be post 265... *sigh*... This requires more then 5 min of my time me thinks...

I am seriously going to go back over your complete case against her tomorrow I promise... Until then I want you to take some of the things you have against her and weigh how much they mean unanswered, versus how much you are making them out to be. Until then my vote on Gunslinger stands... that was just weird what he did...

On a side note I see you guys have said a lot about Miztef these last few pages... he is here! Why not continue to push whatever that was until we get the replacements in? Or push Gunslinger? Or push me? seems it would be a better use of our time...

[GunslingerKB]

They clearly said that we should lynch before the replacement comes because they could spin out of it, and because they couldnt really give us good information anyway.

Yeah... I don't want to keep seeming like I am defending Anata here but that is more or less another "I agree with what they said" vote... You all know my feelings on that matter already...

But if you guys feel so confident in whatever case you have against her go ahead... I will be saying I told you so tomorrow... bank on it...

Gunslinger wrote:
I have to say that I agree with all of Mexals and Jitsus posts on this page about Anata being the lynch for today.


Ok I decided to be fair and look at each of Jitsu's and Mexal's points for Anata being today's lynch on THIS PAGE! to be honest... there is not a single point on this page of why she is in anyway scum... Only points on why replacements should not be given any chance to defend themselves and should be lynched before joining... (Exaggeration I know but you get my point more or less =D)

So Unvote:, Vote: GunslingerKB

Your vote was not even an "I agree with them!" vote... it was an "I agree with their points that I didn't even read" vote... I will be honest I still have to go back and fully read your case against Anata, but Gunslinger just said his reasons were on this page and yet there are none.. so he is a liar, and is more or less acting strange and scummy to me

...

How did you not see the "reasons" i was talking about. I didnt say anything about the posts on this page saying she was scum. I said I agreed wiht mexal and jitsu on her being the lynch for today. Everything that could be said on Anata being scum has pretty much already been said, and its about retarted for me to reiterate everything that has been said. Both jitsu and Mexal voted for Anata, and you didnt jump onto them like you did me.

Korlash, you keep defending Anata. And now you take a stab at me. You seem dire to make me look like scum, even though half the people in this game have realized im pretty much ust a newb. It seems as though you know Anata is scum, and that your trying to protect a teamate. Why else would you be jumping on the weaker player that has made some dumb posts? (Ie: Me)

I thought earlier that you were scum, and now I think you are. Many people made clear posts about why Anata would be scum, and you just seemed to "fail to understand why she could be" Now it seems like your trying to tturn the attention from Anata onto me. Just because of some weak post i made. (Again, sorry. I would have let you all replace my newbiness, but with three people gone, I figure I should just stay.)

Unvote: Anata Vote:Korlash

I think your scum afraid your parteners going to die.

[Korlash]

Um... I honestly laughed at that... Sorry... I need to sit down for a second... Ouch my spaghetti...

Ok... Is it just me or is the quote:

Why else would you be jumping on the weaker player that has made some dumb posts? (Ie: Me)

Not the funniest damn thing you have ever heard...

Ahh man... My head hurts... Ohhh that was great...

Listen man... No matter how newb you are if you make a dumb post expect to get hounded on it.

Ok... where was I...

Slightly OMGUSish... But reasonable... I appreciate you focusing on a more active player... Props for that...

Now how to completely turn the tables on you... decisions... decisions... Oh I haven't had such a hard time choosing something since the Mace was invented.. How I loved the Flail... anyways...

Um... I pointed out where you agreed we should let the replacements come in and then you more or less go back on that as your reasons to vote. So either you have no reasons or you have contradicted yourself...

I jumped on Jitsu kinda... Not a full on vote but his vote more or less started my earlier rants against the Anata Bandwagon... As for Mexal.. I more or less ignore him... =D

You seem dire to make me look like scum, even though half the people in this game have realized im pretty much ust a newb. It seems as though you know Anata is scum, and that your trying to protect a teamate.

Newb =/= automatically towny or a free pass in this game. I could care less if this is your first game, you did something I felt was scummy and I called you on it. If you think being new is a good excuse then boy do you have the wrong game...

As for the teammate thing, not to get to WIFOM, but if I were Anata's partner I would use this as a perfect time to bus... I mean Replacement... Day 1... I am not exactly the most pro-town looking player so far... All in all it would make more sense that her partners would be pushing for her lynch... But as I said it becomes way too much WIFOM and I don't like to get too far into that.

Many people made clear posts about why Anata would be scum, and you just seemed to "fail to understand why she could be" Now it seems like your trying to tturn the attention from Anata onto me. Just because of some weak post i made.

Again... Stop falling back on your newbiness.. Feel confident.. that is key to a mafia game... No matter how dumb you may think you sound, be as confident as you can and you are more likely to win over the other players. That being said... Let me show you how it's done...
*Clear throat*

I have clearly mentioned how I want the town to focus on active players. Attacking and voting replacements will get us no where.. there is no chance in hell we will lynch someone right now.. we have 3-4 people being replaced plus me, thats 5 townies (Potentially) not going to vote in a lynch. So... Not nearly enough people to lynch. So I feel we need to press the actives to squeeze as much info as we can right now or else risk a complete standstill. So yes, I would rather get the attention off her and onto you. I also would like to get it onto me (Quite frankly I feel I can totally dominate you in any back and forth attacks so I have no fear putting myself in the spotlight. No offense...)

So more or less thats my stand... As for the "Clear posts about why she is scum" thing... Those were 7 pages ago... Restate them now or wait for her replacement... Whether or not you feel the case has been stated, she has been inactive for half this dang game... half of your "case" is worthless because it more or less hangs on the fact "She gave no pro-town excuses for things she did" when in reality.. She barely gave any excuses at all because she has not been here...

Any case brought around after she asked for a replacement should not be used as a basis for a lynch. If you cannot understand where I am coming from by all means continue on with this. You guys could be the most lucky town in the world and have magically found a mafia member... But I feel the chances are more likely your all blowing it out of proportion or blindly following the scum on their anti-town crusade.

So... Let me throw up my case... and see what you guys think about it...

When you attack someone, you base a lot of your stuff on how that player reacts to it yes? So their reaction be it scummy or towny looking will direct how you think of them. at the same time, in most cases, if a player deliberately does not answer questions/attacks thrown at them then they seem scummy for not answering. BUT, when a player is

UNABLE

, I repeat

UNABLE

To respond to those attacks you more or less lose everything you were trying to get from attacking them in the first place.

See half of what you guys are calling a "Clear case" on Anata is speculation about what she "MIGHT" have meant... Because we do not have her explanations on things, we do not get to see what her excuses/reasons are for what she did and so we are all rolling with what WE THINK happened. This is very dangerous people... You are all pushing for a lynch of a defenseless towny(Not saying she is town, just a term I use to describe anyone I am unsure about... better safe then sorry)

And yes I know if Anata comes up scum I look bad, but I don't care about myself. I care about this town and this town winning! And so I do not want us to end day 1 by taking a huge gamble and missing out on info from the people being replaced...

While I will say Anata is probably the "MOST SUSPICIOUS" person, I do not see enough for a lynch... Not in a long shot... You guys had a case against her 8 pages ago, but it wasn't enough to lynch then.. so it damn sure isn't enough to lynch now... So if you guys want to take a gamble go ahead. I only hope you wise up come tomorrow... And I really hope you do not make a huge mistake we regret for the rest of the game...

My vote sticks on you Gunslinger.. You rely too much on the fact you are "New" and have even admitted your posts are "weak and dumb."