MUNSCM - Abandoned


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Post Post #950 (ISO) » Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:11 pm

Post by Vraak X »

Mr. Chairman,

The United States would hereby like to
motion
for the retirement of the Romanian candidate due to the following words that the American people have taken to offense:
the romanian delegate believes a hearty Kiss My ass is in order as well as an apology.
Under Robert's Rules of Order, which this Council follows,
Disorderly words should be taken down by the member who objects to them...If a member cannot justify the words he used, and will not suitably apologize for using them, it is the duty of the assembly to act in this case.
I quote from
Robert's Rules of Order, Article VII, Section 43.
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Post Post #951 (ISO) » Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:15 pm

Post by Uraj45 »

POI to the speaker:
Who's twisting words now?
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Post Post #952 (ISO) » Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:17 pm

Post by Uraj45 »

Spain withdraws the POI as he realizes that the delegate has yielded the floor and will make his statements shortly.
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Post Post #953 (ISO) » Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:21 pm

Post by ZONEACE »

the romanian delgate takes offense to the suggestion that it holds grudges that it brings into other games and would like to make a counter
motion
for the retirement of the american delgate.
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Post Post #954 (ISO) » Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:06 am

Post by PolarBoy »

* holds forehead and shakes head *
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Post Post #955 (ISO) » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:48 am

Post by massive »

* wipes away tears of laughter at the thought of America and Spain making those comments straight-faced *
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Post Post #956 (ISO) » Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:20 am

Post by cuban smoker »

Decorum Delegates.

Delegate from the USA, your "point of personal privelege" has been noted. However, I will not entertain a motion to retire the delegate from Romania. I will entertain a motion to censure the delegate from Romania for a fixed period of time, if such a motion is made.

Delegate from Romania, your "point of personal privelege" is noted. Again, I will not entertain your motion.

Because the delegates have taken offense, I will grant each delegate the opportunity to apologize to the other. If a delegate does not wish to apologize, they do not have to and no penalties will be levied. The council will be expected to move on, except in the case of a motion to censure.

Also, we should still continue debate on the resolution, so I call on the delegate from Spain to present their speech.
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Post Post #957 (ISO) » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:14 pm

Post by Uraj45 »

Fellow delegates, I can understand that everyone is frustrated with the behaviour of the delegate from Romania's behavior. I am as well. However, such behaviour does not warrant a nuclear strike against his country. Our one and only purpose of resorting to nuclear weaponry is to destroy members of the Axis of Evil. If we destroy a hotheaded country that turns out to be innocent, we give the Axis an advantage.
The delegate in question has acted this way on many occasions. It is consistent with most games he has played in. As such, evil or not, this behavior shows up and thus cannot possibly inidicate affiliation to the Axis of Evil. I am not asking you to tolerate such behavioiur. I am merely asking you to disregard it for purposes of determining guilt.
Once that is put aside, it should become quite apparent that there is a lack of substantial evidence against Romania. Some actions have stuck out and leave me with some look of suspicion, but none of it would ammount to
more than an
FOS
in a normal mafia game. I am fairly certain that it is not this evidence but rather the hostility of the delegate of Romania that have brought this resolution close to being passed.
Do I have my doubts as to the delegate from Romania's innocence? Of course. But I also have doubts of the innocence of any one of you. Only a fool wouldn't. There is also doubt of the guilt of the delegate. Doubt is not sufficient for a nuclear strike. Instead there must be strong suspicion backed up with evidence from behaviour that goes unbder the category of "scummy" or perhaps odd of which there is little.
The delegate from Romania is just as likely to be innocent as he is to be guilty. Furthermore, he is just as likely to be guilty as most of the members of this council and less than some.
I will now answer questions on my stand on the delegate from Romania as well as the delegate of the US and am willing to clarify particular points in either if necesary.
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Post Post #958 (ISO) » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:24 pm

Post by the silent speaker »

Point of information directed at the Speaker:
Furthermore, he is just as likely to be guilty as most of the members of this council and
less than some
.
Which delegates do you feel are likelier to be Axis than Romania, and why?
I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons
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Post Post #959 (ISO) » Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:26 am

Post by massive »

Point of Information to the Speaker
: Would you rather we sanction bunnies and flowers and balloons, rather than nuclear strikes? Is the sole basis for your "protection" of Romania based around his attitude, and not the fact that he refused to answer direct questions regarding his guilt, nor his actions that followed the initial shelving of MUNSCM 007?
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Post Post #960 (ISO) » Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:07 am

Post by Uraj45 »

Benin: I believe I havemade it quite clear that the USA is significantally more likely to be an Axis member. Many of his actions have left a bad taste in my mouth from the beginning of my placement as delegate for Spain. Other suspicions are much milder and I will not bring them up at this time.
The Phillipines: I am unclear as to which questions you are referring to. Did you mean this one?
POI: Isn't it generally a good idea to read the rules before plunging head first into a complicated game? Isn't failure to do so likely to result in mistakes that are likely to get you nuked?
or perhaps this one?
Why does this honorable delegate imply he will be in hell too?
They sound rather rhetorical to me. How would you have liked the delegate to have responded? I could point to the delegate from the US demonstrating the same point to a greater degree.
I can only assume those actions you are referring to was the aformentioned lack of saying things and simply voting. This has not been at all unusual in this game. Several delegates have adamantly speaken on some resolutions but only voted on most of them.
I focus the majority of my defense around the delegates attitude because I believe that if not for that attitude the delgate from Romania would not be under threat of a nuclear strike. And if the bunnies can stop nuclear strikes, perhaps we should consider the option.
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Post Post #961 (ISO) » Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:18 am

Post by massive »

Point of Information to the Speaker
: Are you aware of Romania's second stand on the Speaker's Podium, pages 20 and 21? Would you like to comment on his answers to questions from myself and the delegate from Benin? Of particular interest to myself, and bearing in mind the discussion of Romania's involvement since the shelving of MUNSCM 007, would you comment on the question posed in post 493 by myself and the subsequent answers? And would you like to comment on his stepping down while under fire?
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Post Post #962 (ISO) » Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:31 am

Post by Vraak X »

Point of Information to the Speaker:
So tis by your whim alone that a nation is declared a member of the Axis of Evil? How pleasant.
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Post Post #963 (ISO) » Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:55 pm

Post by Uraj45 »

USA: My my, that's an interisting leap. I'm presenting my case, therefore I am claiming that I should be completely in charge of deciding which members are evil. It'll take some time to try to figure out your logic there.
Philipines: Can you clarify exactly what you are looking for in reference to the delegates actions since the shelving? The accusation that Romania was attempting to intentionally pass hinself off as the Philipines is perfectly absurd. It would be easy to see through and gives no benefit. As for your first point in that section, I applaud you. You have found
one
substantial point that looks suspicious. Zoneace's stepping down under fire is frustrating but is another clear byproduct of his attitude and I have seen it happen that many innocent people upon nearing a lynch exhibit similar actions.
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Post Post #964 (ISO) » Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:22 pm

Post by Vraak X »

Point of Information to the Speaker:
Uraj45 wrote:Benin: I believe I havemade it quite clear that the USA is significantally more likely to be an Axis member.
Regarding this quote, and your claim that your actions alone do not determine what this Security Council finds as guilty or innocent, what say you on this? Do you not find yourself the lone defender of Romania, aside from the nation itself? Oh, hold on a second, the United States is
more likely
to be an Axis member, despite the lack of evidence that you purport is a lack of support for Romania.
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Post Post #965 (ISO) » Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Uraj45 »

Excuse me, in my haste a phrased that incorrectly. The word got shifted. It should read I have made it quite clear that I believe the USA is significantally more likely to be an axis member.
Firstly, my attempt here is to try to reason with those that wish to see this country nuked to perhaps change their minds. I
am
entitled to do this and every target of a strike
should
have a defender unless it is 100% certain. Secondly, I have yet to hear from the rest of the council recently. I would like to hear from them rather than you telling me that there is no other support. Thirdly, though you made a little syntax error fo your own in your final statemnt, I will take what you obviously meant to say and ask you to clarify exactly how such a thing is even possible much less being done by me. Lack of support and lack of evidence are nowhere near similar enough for one to be passed off as the other.
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Post Post #966 (ISO) » Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:07 pm

Post by massive »

Point of Information to the Speaker
: In my original statements on this resolution upon it's tabling, in post 913, I brought up the actions of the delegate of Romania since the shelving of MUNSCM 007, namely my second point. Would you please comment on how that point, in conjunction with my earlier comments about the delegate from Romania's play while NOT posing as the Phillipines, simply reflects the delegate from Romania's attitude?
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Post Post #967 (ISO) » Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:57 pm

Post by Vraak X »

Will be away from 19th to the 28th. Posted in Vacation thread.
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Post Post #968 (ISO) » Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:57 pm

Post by Vraak X »

Will be away from the 19th to the
26th.
Posted in Vacation thread.
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Post Post #969 (ISO) » Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:18 pm

Post by EnPaceRequiescat »

After a somewhat tedious night of review (which in this case means a long night filled with some entertaining speeches),
the delegate from Brazil asks to be put on the Speaker's list


The delegate from Brazil would also like to inform his fellow delegates that he will be away until the 21st
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Post Post #970 (ISO) » Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:43 am

Post by cuban smoker »

Speaker's List


Spain
Benin
France
Romania
Brazil
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Post Post #971 (ISO) » Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:06 pm

Post by Uraj45 »

Many apologies for the delay. I am in a hurry and can't say much right now but I will simply say that, yes, defending oneself by attacking other people is a common product of personality and extends beyond this game.
I will not be able to post for a day or two and no other members of the council seem to ahve questions for me anyway so I will now step down.
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Post Post #972 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2004 1:38 am

Post by cuban smoker »

Thank you delegate from Spain. I now call on the delegate from Benin.
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Post Post #973 (ISO) » Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:04 am

Post by the silent speaker »

On 28 February this delegate made a speech outlining why I think Romania is likely to be a member of the Axis of Evil. I now quote the pertinent portion of that speech in full.
There are some good grounds for this action: the delegate from Romania's motion to close debate on a resolution which, it should be patently obvious to all, is utterly useless without some kind of amendment, comes immediately to mind. This seems to indicate a wish that the resolution be passed in its useless form, to be a nonaction quickly forgotten. But this is only the latest in a series.
Mr. ZONEACE has asserted of late that his apparent disregard of the rule that countries may not veto their own annihilation is the result of ignorance of the rules. After seventeen pages, I find this most unlikely; further, in speaking on MUNSCM 003 and proposing his recent motion he demonstrated that he does, indeed, know the rules. What is more, during caucus he said this:
I am going to have to agree with mathcam on this one. To give the power of Veto to 2 evil countries seems a bit, well insane and unbalanced.
This post clearly entertains the concept of one evil veto country, and indicates awareness of the inherent flaw in the existence of two -- or, possibly, knowledge to the effect that the countries with power of veto have more power than the rest of us are aware. Either he has contradicted himself, or he has knowledge that Romania should not possess.
The delegate from Romania, as mentioned above, spoke on MUNSCM 003. The entire thrust of his speech was that "I just don't see any of the Big 5 being members of the axis of evil", and on the strength of his not seeing, we should obliterate almost the whole point of the resolution! If his arguments had carried the day, we would be inspecting a random country, likelier than not a "Big 5" nonmember, in blind trust that all of the "Big 5" are good -- and at the same time keeping our MABM away from the same countries in which blind trust is supposedly being placed. And then he immediately stepped down. After dropping this bombshell, the delegate from Romania did not even allow us the chance for points of information from him. Was he concerned that points of information would trip up his facade of being helpful to the United Nations? I think so.
Don't get me wrong; it is entirely possible that all three members of the Axis of Evil are temporary members rather than one of them being permanent. But the other way around is equally possible, and all our eggs should not be in either basket. The delegate from Romania's attempts to wangle our eggs not only into one basket but the more potentially catastrophic of the two, and his extreme vehemence on the subject, I find most worrying. Equally worrying, almost as soon as I pointed out that the current resolution puts his country in no immediate danger, he moved to close debate on it lest it be improved.
This delegate would like to further note that he asked Romania point-blank to respond to the above speech and was met with:
I am through fighting this hopeless cause. No matter what i sau, you will find some fault with it. All i can say is that while destroying romania will increase future attempts to find axis members (my death will make it 3/14). So do what you will, i obviously can not change the opinion of some of you no matter what i do.

the delgate from romania steps down.
More recently Romania has insisted that the Philippines
must
be in league with Osama bin Hussein al-Khatami Jong-il by virtue of having put forward a resolution directed at Romania. Mr. ZONEACE is of course entitled to his opinion that the Philippines is so in league, and that his resolution indicates the same; but it passes credulity that he should expect the entire council to assume that such a resolution is a blatant and unequivocal sign of guilt. Surely, Mr. ZONEACE, by precisely the same logic, you must be scum, for you have been demanding we nuke the Philippines?

Two things further should be noted. First, that Romania has made a partial response to one of the points mentioned above, namely that his insistence on there not being any permanent Axis members was predicated on the mathematical certainty that there cannot be two.
Second, this delegate did not think much of the "pretending to be the Philippines" argument. It seems unlikely that scum would try to pass itself off as another, innocent, nation, both because they could not possibly hope to remain unnoticed by the nation they were impersonating and because no doubt many delegates identify the delegates primarily by their name tags and only secondarily and for formal speech their countries of origin. I know I do.

This delegate admits to a slight perplexity, however, as to how any delegate could get its country of origin confused with another, and why that other should spring to the delegate's mind. It may be that Romania made an honest mistake -- but that mistake consisted of mentally switching himself with his scum fellow. This is, admittedly, entirely speculative and should not be used as grounds for annihilation; but if Romania
is
annihilated and turns up scum, the Philippines may bear another look.
The delegate from Benin now stands for points of information and especially encourages the Romanian delegate to clear up whatever he can.
I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons
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Post Post #974 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:39 am

Post by cuban smoker »

well, there seems to be no interest for this speaker, so I will ask the delegate from Benin to step down, and call on the next speaker on the list, France.

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