Mini 497 - Game Over

[destructor]

Whenever there's a deadline and a dearth of posts around it, I assume scum are sitting back entirely satisfied with where the votes sit.

[Shanba]

Shanba, I think your argument against Seph in 348 wasn't based on anything really scummy. You refer to his behaviour as a scum-tell, but I don't see it like that. I might even call it a reach, and I call it half-hearted because, even before reading Seph's response, I thought it would have been easy to defend against. 380 still reads very much like a defence of Seph than a rebuttal of CKDs logic. Only one sentence in the paragraph even refers to logic at all.

So you think it's half-hearted because... you don't agree with my scumtell? I can go and cite examples if you wish. It's definitely something I find scummy. And if someone is scum they have to invent a reason for not posting, something which is risky - forcing scum to commit to a lie is excellent, as if the lie is uncovered we can know they're scum. So no, it's not easy to defend against.

As for the second thing, you missed the point. I was defending Sephiroth, but only as a result of trying to explain to ckd just why and how he was wrong, not as a result of who he was voting for. I guarantee you that if I saw craplogic used against anyone I would attack it, and thereby defend the player under attack.

I didn't say that the points you raised about kabenon had already been bought up. By saying I didn't think the case was any better than the one that was already stated, I was saying that I didn't think it was particularly good evidence of him being scum.

:\

So again, it's a case of you don't think my scumtells are scumtells. I can't argue with that. It would help if you said just exactly what you thought was weak in my case against kab.

About Tin and Atticus, no, I'm not

trying

to link them to you, given that the link already exists by virtue of posts. Two of the players I find most suspicious, who are very inactive, both manage a post to express agreement with you. Of course I'm going to bring this up.

Ridiculous. By the very act of bringing it up, you insinuate we are linked based simply on one post where they agree with me. Do you not see why this worries me? If you're linking me to Atticus and Tin based on that, why not link me to joost, who I attacked briefly then backed off and has said he thinks I'm town, Aimee, who I've expressed suspicion of but not yet acted on and who voted on the Kab wagon with me, (though I am sorely tempted to at this point. Aimee, where are you? Come back?), OF, who I attacked once and haven't returned to, CKD, who I am indirectly defending by pushing an alternative lynch wagon... do you see where I'm getting to here? If you're taking my attacking people using scumtells you disagree with as a link, or one post defending them, or one post where they agree with me, then your definition of a link is weak enough to link me to just about every player in the game.

[-TinVision-]

I got prodded on Friday and promised a post to the mod on Saturday. That obviously didn't happen. Be patient until the end of today and you'll see content. My sincere apologies; I don't want to be replaced and will re-read today. We've had more than enough replacements in this game.

[FaerieLord]

Replacing person with Kaput computer.

Also, HI SHANBA AND TINNY!

[JDodge]

Vote Count

:

curiouskarmadog (5): vampyrusddg, -TinVision-, Sephiroth, joost, kabenon007
kabenon007 (3): Shanba, Aimee, curiouskarmadog
-TinVision- (2): destructor, OpposedForce
Aimee (1): Atticus

not voting (1): Flameaxe

Seven to lynch, four to lynch at deadline (3 PM EDT, November 16th)

Current Player List

:

Atticus
curiouskarmadog

(replaces dusterhan)

-TinVision-
destructor
joost
OpposedForce

(replaces Knuck)

kabenon007
Shanba

(replaces Nirp)

Sephiroth
Aimee
Flameaxe

(replaces SilverPhoenix)

FaerieLord

(replaces vampyrusddg replaces Nekka-Lucifer)

FaerieLord replaces vampyrusddg.

[FaerieLord]

Whenever there's a deadline and a dearth of posts around it, I assume scum are sitting back entirely satisfied with where the votes sit.

Or scum could be trying to continue trying to gain townie points, while you blame the lurkers.

(I'm not saying those that are posting are scum, I have bearly read anything yet. I'm just saying that I don't like the reasoning)

[destructor]

So you think it's half-hearted because... you don't agree with my scumtell? I can go and cite examples if you wish.

Definitely, some examples would be good. But to clarify, I just don't find arguments that simply refer to actions as 'scumtells' to be very strong and think most 'tells' aren't anyway. If you'd actually stated what was scummy about what Sephiroth did, then it would have been a more convincing post.

And if someone is scum they have to invent a reason for not posting, something which is risky - forcing scum to commit to a lie is excellent, as if the lie is uncovered we can know they're scum. So no, it's not easy to defend against.

Point about about getting scum to lie is taken. But the point

I'm

making is that Seph didn't even have to lie to answer your post.

As for the second thing, you missed the point. I was defending Sephiroth, but only as a result of trying to explain to ckd just why and how he was wrong, not as a result of who he was voting for. I guarantee you that if I saw craplogic used against anyone I would attack it, and thereby defend the player under attack.

Effectively, an attack against someone's argument will become a defence, direct or indirect, of someone else, yes. But you didn't seem to put much effort into marking this difference. I still think that post reads much more like a defence of Seph than an attack on crap-logic, which is what I said in my last post.

So again, it's a case of you don't think my scumtells are scumtells. I can't argue with that. It would help if you said just exactly what you thought was weak in my case against kab.

Well, I don't know if I'd call it weak. I think what you said was noteworthy. I wasn't sure about the appeals to emotion points though. Overall, it didn't seem as damning a case as you presented it to be. Not enough to call him 'solidly the scummiest player', anyway.

Ridiculous. By the very act of bringing it up, you insinuate we are linked based simply on one post where they agree with me. Do you not see why this worries me?

Shanba, you're ignoring that both Tin and Atticus have mostly lurked through this day, meaning each of their posts are more meaningful than single posts of other players you mentioned. This is why I found it notable. Quoting myself:

Two of the players I find most suspicious, who are very inactive, both manage a post to express agreement with you.

Was this not clear enough?

[joost]

Ridiculous. By the very act of bringing it up, you insinuate we are linked based simply on one post where they agree with me. Do you not see why this worries me?

Shanba, you're ignoring that both Tin and Atticus have mostly lurked through this day, meaning each of their posts are more meaningful than single posts of other players you mentioned. This is why I found it notable. Quoting myself:

Two of the players I find most suspicious, who are very inactive, both manage a post to express agreement with you.

Was this not clear enough?

Sure it's pretty clear and perhaps it's worth noting that they did agree with Shanba, but what are you trying to prove here? Do you think Shanba has the same alignment as Tin and Atticus? Does that mean you think Shanba is suspicious too? Or do you think that they were both trying to score town credits by agreeing with someone they both know is pro-town (assuming these two are scum;

"Two of the players I find most suspicious"

).

[destructor]

If one is scum, here is a link to Shanba. If both are scum, here is a greater link to Shanba. I don't find Shanba even half as suspicious as either Tin or Atticus, if that's what you're asking. But there is a connection in my mind, due to their actions.

[destructor]

joost, do you think CKD is more likely scum than TinVision?

[-TinVision-]

TinVision is still the most scummy in my eyes. Zero scum-hunting, strawmanning, dishonestly, lurking.

As for doing little scumhunting/lurking, yes I have been non-posting. Things happen in real life. I've tried to at least keep up with the thread, but we can't always control our personal lives. Strawmanning? In the words of forum idiots everywhere, pics or it didn't happen. Show me where I strawmanned someone and I'll prove you wrong. Dishonesty? As far as I know, that's your opinion, unless you can present a case where I've contradicted myself.

kabenon's use of the word 'logic' was trivial. The beef of his post was in this sentence: "The only facts we have are in favor of destructor's analysis."

Yes, and I addressed that after he posted it. I plainly disagree. In order for "the facts to be in favor" of your analysis, it would have to be true that we could infer from the facts that it was more likely for me to be scum than not. I don't think the town as a whole thinks that is true at all. If they did, I would have been lynched weeks and weeks ago when that statement was made.


I still think that curiouskarmadog is the lynch for today. Why? Much of his defense has been to talk about what will happen tomorrow predicated on the notion that he will be lynched and turn up town today. I don’t care for it. His refusal to do a point-by-point defense against Sephiroth’s arguments because “no one will read it” and that he does not see the point of addressing attacks is, frankly, anti-town. His vanilla claim is no help to his cause. Further, we have an enormous amount of reactions and interactions to go on between ckd and dusterhan, whom he replaced. Every person in this game was forced to take a position on the dusterhan debacle, and the wagon on ckd has produced a lot of reactions as well.

I feel that ckd is most likely scum. Further, knowing his alignment for certain will be an invaluable tool for reanalyzing D1’s posts. I really can’t imagine a better lynch.

Confirm Vote curiouskarmadog

[Shanba]

So you think it's half-hearted because... you don't agree with my scumtell? I can go and cite examples if you wish.

Definitely, some examples would be good. But to clarify, I just don't find arguments that simply refer to actions as 'scumtells' to be very strong and think most 'tells' aren't anyway. If you'd actually stated what was scummy about what Sephiroth did, then it would have been a more convincing post.

Eh, I'm largely in agreement with you here, and perhaps it was my terminology that is misleading - I call any scummy action a scumtell, and anything I deem a scumtell as scummy. You can look at my wiki for my philosophy of scumhunting.

As for why that's a scumtell/scummy, it goes back to scum wanting to fly under the radar, whether consciously or subconsciously. It also relates to it being difficult for scum to give genuine opinions on the scumminess of a player given they already know who the scum is. As such, the scum puts off posting (not necessarily deliberately) until something crucial comes up: i.e. something they have to defend against. At which point they suddenly realise they need to look like they're scumhunting some more and post quickly. In this sense it's closely linked to active lurking as an indicator of scumminess.

As for examples... eh. viewtopic.php?t=4004 Pooky's play here is quite a good example, but quite long. Some elements of it later in day 1 of my play in viewtopic.php?t=6170&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0 There's also some in my play here: viewtopic.php?t=5886. Eh, they're not as clear as I like, but you get the idea.

And if someone is scum they have to invent a reason for not posting, something which is risky - forcing scum to commit to a lie is excellent, as if the lie is uncovered we can know they're scum. So no, it's not easy to defend against.

Point about about getting scum to lie is taken. But the point

I'm

making is that Seph didn't even have to lie to answer your post.

Really? Explain how. If he's scum, and he's showing this pattern because he is scum and not for personal reasons, he would have to make up an excuse for not posting.

As for the second thing, you missed the point. I was defending Sephiroth, but only as a result of trying to explain to ckd just why and how he was wrong, not as a result of who he was voting for. I guarantee you that if I saw craplogic used against anyone I would attack it, and thereby defend the player under attack.

Effectively, an attack against someone's argument will become a defence, direct or indirect, of someone else, yes. But you didn't seem to put much effort into marking this difference. I still think that post reads much more like a defence of Seph than an attack on crap-logic, which is what I said in my last post.

Yes, I know, but you based that on the fact that I only used the word logic once, which is a weak assertion. What I said was simply what had been said before - my hope was that by repeating it, CKD would finally get the message.

So again, it's a case of you don't think my scumtells are scumtells. I can't argue with that. It would help if you said just exactly what you thought was weak in my case against kab.

Well, I don't know if I'd call it weak. I think what you said was noteworthy. I wasn't sure about the appeals to emotion points though. Overall, it didn't seem as damning a case as you presented it to be. Not enough to call him 'solidly the scummiest player', anyway.

:\

So who do you think was scummier then? Given my analyses and positions on other players, who would you expect me to be voting? It seems to me like you simply disagree with my case on Kabenon and for some reason are calling this a link.

Ridiculous. By the very act of bringing it up, you insinuate we are linked based simply on one post where they agree with me. Do you not see why this worries me?

Shanba, you're ignoring that both Tin and Atticus have mostly lurked through this day, meaning each of their posts are more meaningful than single posts of other players you mentioned. This is why I found it notable. Quoting myself:

Two of the players I find most suspicious, who are very inactive, both manage a post to express agreement with you.

Was this not clear enough?

Yes, it was perfectly clear, but it doesn't address

my

point, which is that the links you are drawing are weak. If similar links could be drawn between me and three quarters of the game, then there's no reason for these to be any more than background noise. Eh. That wasn't clear. Let me try again. I can't be scum with all the players in the game, correct? As such, what particular reason is there to believe that these links are significant? The fact that the players are scummy means little to nothing. If these links are alid, then the ones between me and other players of similar strength should be ntoed as valid too - which means whoever the scum is, you could link me to them by this logic. Do you see what worries me?

[curiouskarmadog]

FL

I am the current vote leader...your vote is on me (from vamp) care to comment?

[joost]

joost, do you think CKD is more likely scum than TinVision?

At this time, yes I think CKD is more likely scum. But a lot of that is based on the fact that he posted more than TV and therefor he is more likely to show scummy behaviour. But that and Duster's play makes me convinced he's scum and I'm more than willing to lynch him today. I am prepared to lynch TV too, but I don't think that will happen today.

[curiouskarmadog]

so then you will go after TV tomorrow then?

[Atticus]

FL

I am the current vote leader...your vote is on me (from vamp) care to comment?

Vampyrusddg actually never voted. Nekka-Lucifer voted dusterhan. So that vote on you is officially questionable.

Reading over recent posts.

[Atticus]

About Tin and Atticus, no, I'm not

trying

to link them to you, given that the link already exists by virtue of posts. Two of the players I find most suspicious, who are very inactive, both manage a post to express agreement with you. Of course I'm going to bring this up.

Wait, why are you suspicious of

me?

I know you've expressed your suspicions on TV, but I've either missed your post(s) about me or you've yet to explain.

Also for destructor, you're making cases based on links to people that you don't know are scum (unless you're scum). On Day One I have a hard time following links that are made between people, unless it's a simple, "I could see so-and-so and such-a-such as scumbuddies," but for you to make these elaborate chains of people you don't know are scum relating to someone else you don't know is scum is something I find quite preposterous.

Seeing as no one has taken a hint from my post and my poor explanations, I will

unvote

.

[curiouskarmadog]

FL

I am the current vote leader...your vote is on me (from vamp) care to comment?

Vampyrusddg actually never voted. Nekka-Lucifer voted dusterhan. So that vote on you is officially questionable.

Reading over recent posts.

not that questionable, the MOD said the vote counted in the VC

[FaerieLord]

Unvotep

Happily. I still havent read it in too much detail

[Atticus]

FL

I am the current vote leader...your vote is on me (from vamp) care to comment?

Vampyrusddg actually never voted. Nekka-Lucifer voted dusterhan. So that vote on you is officially questionable.

Reading over recent posts.

not that questionable, the MOD said the vote counted in the VC

Come on, let's make some inferences due to my implications here.

Think "reasons for the vote on you."

[Sephiroth]

FL

I am the current vote leader...your vote is on me (from vamp) care to comment?

Vampyrusddg actually never voted. Nekka-Lucifer voted dusterhan. So that vote on you is officially questionable.

Reading over recent posts.

not that questionable, the MOD said the vote counted in the VC

Come on, let's make some inferences due to my implications here.

Think "reasons for the vote on you."

Could you maybe stop being so cryptic? It's really annoying, and noncommittal.

[-TinVision-]

Nobody feels like responding to what I said about CKD being the best lynch by far?

[curiouskarmadog]

I think it is crap, but again, I am bias

[joost]

Nobody feels like responding to what I said about CKD being the best lynch by far?

I agree with you, but you don't add many new things. And asking what we think about your arguments (which have been brought up by other people before) makes me think you are distancing yourself from CKD and you want everyone to know you are doing it.

I think CKD's lynch will provide valuable information about almost everybody in the game. But if he turns up scum you are likely his buddy.

[-TinVision-]

I don't like anyone who sets up

if x, then we lynch y tomorrow

type scenarios in anything except in cases of counterclaims. It's just not good practice.