Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!

[Mr. Flay]

Adel, please provide evidence from closed games that you are an asset in the endgame as a pro-town player. From your wiki I only see one game won as a living townie, and a 30% win rate overall, which means you're more dangerous as scum (50% win rate overall). Therefore if you live to endgame, we should kill you.

---

See how misleading statistics can be? I think you're earnest (at least so far), but you're

really

irritating and jumping to conclusions based on flimsy evidence. "3 is not several" - whaaa?? That's your case?!?

[curiouskarmadog]

One of the things that is bothering me about Korlash is his constant reminders that he is bored, uncaring about this game, or that his impact on this game is quite small, yet he is obviously reading , keeping up, and has regular tabs on the game. Also, his constant joking manner, gives off the feel of someone who is joking to make it look like posting, but has done very little to actually scum hunt. Here are some examples.

And how do I seem angry? A little bored. A small bit tired, yes. And I think I am hungry... I could eat.. but I don;t fee like making a meal right now... Perhaps a snack... Oh but I haven't gone to the store in a while.. I wonder what I have in the fridge.. Oh I could make cookies.. hmmm... Or an apple... I think I have apples in there...

joke, no content

@ jitsu: Realize I am not intentionally ignoring you here. I guess it can;t hurt to hear from

everyone

before I answer your question. However I don;t think my answer is really going to make a difference one way or another. ><

poor little Korlash

What? You don't want to meta me? =D That doesn't put me in the center of attention so I am against it! Kidding...

@ Adel: Oh... I will break that.. I will break it so hard... and then reassemble it backwards! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

jokes.

I don't know if Anata abandoning the game is a scum tell or a just a newb tell- mafia is far less fun for most people when there is a wagon on you. Role and alignment doesn't change that much.

I don't know... I personally think that is when it gets really fun! It all comes down to how good you are at convincing people you are right and others are wrong, and if you are mafia, it comes down to how good you can lie! Then you get into other things, how long can you keep your "role" hidden. (Vanilla, mafa, powerrole, Sk, etc...) How can you come back from a crushing blow, what kind of defenses can you come up with on a moments notice, how good you are at throwing other's attacks back at them!

=D It's like a day at the beach... if all your friends wanted you dead and you had a laptop with you!

If you thought it was really fun, why did you come out so early with the roleblocker claim. Shouldn’t you have just defended yourself a little more, push a case on someone else, or simply picked apart a case against you? No, you chose to end the “fun” by claiming your powerful role at –3.

but he's claimed Roleblocker, so I don't understand why there's still four votes on him.

Yeah but they all seem to think I meant "mafia Roleblocker" or whatever that is... I am not a prostitute! (Well... maybe on the weekends...)

Still there is usually something to that "claim early" thing they keep using at me so i guess that is why I still have so many votes. I don't really mind the votes I just think they could be used elsewhere. But at least people are actively attacking the actives I guess... (Can't get much more active then me can you? XD Well maybe if you jack a rabbit up on crack and Redbull i guess...)

Oh look, the votes on Korlash doesn’t really bother him, if you didnt really mind the votes, why claim at -3?. And then there is this. “Yeah but they all seem to think I meant "mafia Roleblocker" or whatever that is” Whatever that is??? So you don’t have a clue what a mafia roleblocker is? Please explain “or whatever that is” means.

yeah I am intentionally littering the thread with useless stuff. You have caught on to my master plan! Oh noes! [/sarcasm]

yes, yes I think you are….I am not going to list all of his jokes here…his jokes are plentiful and pointless.

I don;t care about being the NK, as I said before I find this role to be otherwise useless overall. I could hurt the town far more then I could help it. Granted I could prevent the NK too but I am not that good a player at RaF and so it would all be a matter of luck for me to do so.

Better I die then the doc/cop/tracker/vig... Or that is how I see it.

we got it, you don’t care if you die.

Oh well... I don't mind being the sacrificial lamb today I suppose.. better then losing the Doc or Cop at least... I wasn't even going to bother with my role anyways as I find it more or less pointless... Unless I choose correctly... and knowing me I woudl choose the cop and that would just suck.. "Congratulations! You have successfully blocked the cop! You are the worst towny ever!"

Right right, sacrificial lamb, got it.

You werent even going to bother with your role? I wonder if in the decoded message you left earlier today, we will discover that he did indeed bother with his role and block someone.

But I admit today is getting rather boring isn't it...

Forget it... I'm getting tired of this game...

Shoulda went into lurker mode a week ago... Seriously debating it now...

OK, so I don’t really have the time to post all the times he lets us know that he is bored, and I definitely don’t have enough time to post the jokes. But they are there.


Another things have stuck out to me too (during reading his posts).

Besides my role is just "Roleblocker" It does not say town in it.. however it does say "Pro-Town" so... yeah... I suppose I am town, but I didn't feel it was necessary to actually say it... I mean does the cop have to say "I am a town cop!" ? Does the Doc have to say "I am a town Doc!" ? No? I didn't think so...

I thought this was interesting when I read it. Are you saying that your PM did not have the word “town” in it other than saying you were pro-town?

[Adel]

that some stats can be misleading =! stats can not be informative.

in the case you cite (30%win as town, 50% win as scum) the sample size is the reason the stats are misleading. n=2 for me as scum, n=9 for me as town. for my offered stats earlier in this game i went through great pains to make sure my sample size was as large as possible.

i've survived in two games: once as scum, and once as town. every time i've been a doctor i've been lynched. do you want to lynch me? generally in games where i was an asset to the town, i get nk'd pretty quickly, and when i've been a power role i've gotten lynched in the process of trying to avoid drawing the nk. i'm still learning. are you?

i do not consider your analysis of my posts to be fair, sincere, or earnest. i asked her how many "several" was. "3 or more" or some equivalent would've ended that line of questioning. i take her

evasiveness

to be proof that she was attempting to mislead us: that is my case. it is not a strong one, but i think it is worth noting. it links her to korlash pretty strongly, and that could be vital later in the game.

i am pretty unsettled by how much less fair and balanced you are from what i expected when you replaced in.

[Adel]

Games completed:

1. Lost: Newbie 393. Cop. NK'd N1. I was not an asset. At all.
2. Lost: [http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0] Newbie 347[/url] Cop. Replaced in D1. Nk'd N1. Investigated a scum player, but got nk'd because I was not a lurker, to allow DogMom's scummy B.S. to go through with less of a challenge

3. Lost: [http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 75&start=0] Open 23- Monks and Masons[/url] Townie. Nk'd N1. I was an asset by drawing the nk of

two

scum groups N1. Town still ost, however.

4. Lost: [http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53&start=0] Mini 455 - Mafia in Theoville/url] Vig. Nk'd N3. I believe I was pretty damn useful, outside of vigging townies each night, and totally falling for a fakeclaim from a player our cop had a guilty on. Ok, maybe I wasn't an asset in this game either.

5. Won: [http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 20&start=0] Open 21 - Friends and Enemies[/url] Goon. Survived. not much of an asset to the town.

6. Lost: [http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5683] Newbie 415 - Super Go-Getter Mafia[/url] Doctor. Lynched D2. The beginnig of ABR's rampage against me for making him look like such a fool in Friends & Enemies. But I wasn't must of an asset anyhow.

7. Won: [http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5647] Assassins in the Palace[/url] Guard (Townie). Lynched D1. ABR got me quicklynched very early day 1, as part of his anti-Adel rampage.

8. Won: [http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 43&start=0] Mini 434: Communiqué Mafia[/url] Townie. Replaced in N3. Lynched D4. I devised a plan that would've broken the game for the town. As it was, I think scum's response to my plan help the surviving townies in the endgame. The quote in my sig line is from this game, from MeMe, the moderator of this game.

9. Lost: [http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 78&start=0] Mini 458[/url] Goon. Lynched D2. An asset to the town? Perhaps.

10. Lost: [http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5668] Mini 471[/url] Doctor. Lynched D1. Once again a victim of a townie-ABR led lynch. I think I would've been able to survive quite a few day had he not continued his revenge against me.

11. Lost: [http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5875] Mini 485: Formula One[/url] Played as discordian algorithm. Townie. Lynched D3. This was a failed playstyle experiment.

12. Abandoned: [http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5905] Newbie 440[/url] Cop. Nk'd N1. Again, I investigated a scum player, but got killed. Shucks.

13. Won: [http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6150] Mini 502 - Basically Communist Mafia[/url] Townie. Replaced in D4. Survived. I led the mass claim that netted the last goon, and I didn't mess up in the endgame where we won against an investigation-immune & nk immune SK played by JDodge. Quite an asset, IMHO

And then there is the fistful of active games. I expect my win % as town to increase pretty dramatically over the next few months since ABR is no longer joining & replacing into games to lynch me, and I'm getting quite a bit better.

[Jitsu]

i do not consider your analysis of my posts to be fair, sincere, or earnest. i asked her how many "several" was. "3 or more" or some equivalent would've ended that line of questioning. i take her

evasiveness

to be proof that she was attempting to mislead us: that is my case. it is not a strong one, but i think it is worth noting. it links her to korlash pretty strongly, and that could be vital later in the game.

Dude, I think you totally missed what Flay was doing. When I read his post, I was pretty sure that he was intentionally crafting a ridiculous argument and using it to show you how easy it is to mislead with statistics, rather than making a serious argument against you.

[Adel]

he was creating a strawman argument to undermine the use of statistics as evidence. it was not a sincere or earnest case.

[Setael]

Adel, I think you missed one or two of my posts. I think if you read them all, you'll see that your "case" on me, however small it was, was inaccurate from the start.

[Mr. Flay]

he was creating a strawman argument to undermine the use of statistics as evidence. it was not a sincere or earnest case.

Reductio ad Absurdum, actually. Your over-reliance on your "statistics" is what I'm objecting to. I frequently think you're insightful, and I'm not even gunning for your lynch here, but I want you to stop trying to reduce this to a numbers game and work on the

game

, not the meta.

Speaking of which, I'm intrigued by CKD's observation about Korlash's "lurking in plain sight". I'm trying to sift out in my brain how we can test his claim....

[Adel]

i think this would be a good time for me to sit back for a few dozen posts, observe, and reconsider my previous assumptions.

it would probably be the the benefit of the town if someone were to volunteer to direct the pressure against our under-posting peers, in an attempt to obtain a more even amount of content from everyone.

[Korlash]

Speaking of which, I'm intrigued by CKD's observation about Korlash's "lurking in plain sight". I'm trying to sift out in my brain how we can test his claim....

Dude.. go meta me or something... This is how I play... Every game...

I find it is an awesome strategy. Firstly, if someone wants to build a case they have to wade through tons of fluff. (Good strategy for both town and scum)

Secondly, It also gives me that "idiot town" look that even you have mentioned. I get by with that claim almost every game. (Again, good for both town and scum)

By all means please question me. But don't think that what I am doing is such an obvious scumtell... Cause it really isn't...

Lets see... a few other things I wanted to comment on...

I thought this was interesting when I read it. Are you saying that your PM did not have the word “town” in it other than saying you were pro-town?

No it also had the "You win when the town fulfils it's win condition" thing (MY own words)

It did not say blatantly "YOU ARE TOWN" it said... In my own words >.> <.<

"YOU ARE A ROLEBLOCKER! YOU ARE PRO-TOWN"

>.>

That better pass the no quote pm thing... It is very similar to what it says, but I switched it up a bit.

seemed like it worked for you (because as you stated yourself, you felt like you needed to).. if you didnt feel like it the claim would help you, why claim at -3?

Roleblocker is not a believable role. And so for many players, claiming RB will not garner an Unvote, While claiming Doc will more or less pull the entire wagon off you.

I already said why I claimed at L-3. At least twice. If not three times. You seem to like to read up on me, go look it up.

And i didn't care so much for it helping me as much as letting you all know my role before I died... That way no one could say I was dumb when I was lynched and you all saw I was a power role. I would hate to have that on my record...

to me it is pretty simple: had the wagon on korlash been scum powered, it would've had two quantifiable attributes that were missing. unlike the miztef wagon.

I'm sorry... Did i miss the part where my wagon was powered by you and you are scum? Cause I think that more or less blows this statement out of the water...

(That was a joke.. lighten up people...)

I'm neutral on Korlash's motivations as yet, but I'm still leaning toward the 'stoopid townie' interpretation (no offense, you just remind me of that type of player).

Thank you. I try my best to please! *bows*

I think that is all... Maybe I missed something.. Oh well if I did I didn't care that much about it anyways apparently... (Joke again)

Tough crowd...

[curiouskarmadog]

Ok that was a start Korlash, try answering the rest of the questions this time, also some follow up.

I don’t care who brought up the fact you were at –3 first, I want to know.

If you thought it was really fun, why did you come out so early with the roleblocker claim.

Shouldn’t you have just defended yourself a little more, push a case on someone else, or simply picked apart a case against you?

No, you chose to end the “fun” by claiming your powerful role at –3.

please answer

please answer

but he's claimed Roleblocker, so I don't understand why there's still four votes on him.

Yeah but they all seem to think I meant "mafia Roleblocker" or whatever that is... I am not a prostitute! (Well... maybe on the weekends...)

And then there is this. “Yeah but they all seem to think I meant "mafia Roleblocker" or whatever that is” Whatever that is??? So you don’t have a clue what a mafia roleblocker is? Please explain “or whatever that is” means.

Out of my whole post I wanted you to answer this the most, why did you not answer it? Please answer it now.

You werent even going to bother with your role? I wonder if in the decoded message you left earlier today, we will discover that he did indeed bother with his role and block someone.

Any comments about this? I don’t want to know who you blocked, I want to know if you blocked..if you did, please explain this comment and why you chose to block.

I thought this was interesting when I read it. Are you saying that your PM did not have the word “town” in it other than saying you were pro-town?

No it also had the "You win when the town fulfils it's win condition" thing (MY own words)

It did not say blatantly "YOU ARE TOWN" it said... In my own words >.> <.<

"YOU ARE A ROLEBLOCKER! YOU ARE PRO-TOWN"

this was a very direct question here that is not asking you to quote a PM. I asked you if the PM said the word “town” other than saying you are “pro-town”. You answered “no” then state, but then say it says “you win when the town fulfills it’s win condition” (your words)…now, does it use the word “town” or not in the PM?


Also, why do you keep telling us how bored you are with the game, when you are obviously keeping active tabs on this game? Are you still willing to be the “sacrificial lamb”?

[Korlash]

Hey just cause I am bored doesn't mean I will roll over and die. I am too good a player to do something that selfish. Besides arguing with you may be just the little pick me up I need.

Lets see then...

please answer

What case could I pick apart? There were 4 votes on me for no reason... Hello? Duh please...

Note above for "defend self a little more"

As for pushing a case on someone else.. the only obvious person for me to go after was Adel.. and I pushed as hard as I could without seemingly going overboard...

Out of my whole post I wanted you to answer this the most, why did you not answer it? Please answer it now.

sorry I think that was in the post I skimmed over as it didn't really seem to be you saying anything.

No, at the time I did not even know there was a mafia RB. I had read about it in the wiki so long ago, but it never stuck in my mind. I have read it up and I am insulted you all thought I was a prostitute... geeze... jerks...

Any comments about this? I don’t want to know who you blocked, I want to know if you blocked..if you did, please explain this comment and why you chose to block.

I never said I chose to block... In fact I outright told you guys I would not block anyone. Who says I didn't keep my word?

this was a very direct question here that is not asking you to quote a PM. I asked you if the PM said the word “town” other than saying you are “pro-town”. You answered “no” then state, but then say it says “you win when the town fulfills it’s win condition” (your words)…now, does it use the word “town” or not in the PM?

*Sigh* does anyone else hate it when a player answers his own question, then asks it again?

Look goofball. Even the damn mafia Pms have the word "Town" in it. What the hell are you trying to prove with this? Every freaking Role PM will have the word town in it. I said my Pm did not outright say "YOU ARE TOWN" it said "YOU ARE PRO-Town" While there is no difference there, I felt I needed to be absolutely clear on things so no one mistook me.

Now if you have some point to this line of questioning please explain. And if you pull an Adel I swear I will give up on this game.

Also, why do you keep telling us how bored you are with the game, when you are obviously keeping active tabs on this game? Are you still willing to be the “sacrificial lamb”?

I'm bored because we have Adel in one corner not playing the game, two or three people who tend to just want days over with, A role that to me is as good as a vanilla role, and no one has given any real cases against me in forever. I get all my enjoyment from defending myself.

On a side note I appreciate you actively questioning me instead of being a jerk like Adel and voting me for unknown reasons...

Anyways, i so look forward to how you try and come back at me over this next. Good luck ;P

[curiouskarmadog]

Now if you have some point to this line of questioning please explain. And if you pull an Adel I swear I will give up on this game.

No you wont.

No, at the time I did not even know there was a mafia RB. I had read about it in the wiki so long ago, but it never stuck in my mind. I have read it up and I am insulted you all thought I was a prostitute... geeze... jerks...

Vote Korlash,

For Meta reasons (who said meta was worthless), this is an out and out lie. Caught you scum bag.

Also, surprised with all of Adel’s meta, she didn’t catch this, interesting.

[Korlash]

.. what? What meta reasons?

You either have meta confused with another word or you are making up stuff.

Either way I am not surprised you voted me. Not sure if it makes you scum though... For some strange reason I am still leaning town with you... odd... Quick.. do something to piss me off

[curiouskarmadog]

well, I am sure that you would like me to explain further so I get mod killed.

during my reread (after finding out you werent killed in the night) I saw the comment indicating that you didnt know what there was such a thing as a mafia role blocker..I noticed the date of that statement. I asked you again, if you want us to believe that you didnt know that there was such a thing as a mafia roleblocker. You said just now, at the time (I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you met at the time of the original statement) that you didnt.

I meta-ed (yes I know what it means)..and found that you do indeed know.

I encourage everyone to investigate his lie on your own.

[curiouskarmadog]

come on OMGUS vote me. I dare you

[Korlash]

I wont OMGUS that. I acknowledge there was something similar to this happening at the exact same time in another.. what is the word.. forum activity

But if you do plan on holding that against me I would like you to carefully check those dates again. If you want to hold me to it fine, but your case holds more weight on the other.. activity... as it happened AFTER the one on this... activity...

Hmmm... Pushing It I think... Isn't this the game we keep getting in trouble for doing this? ...

I have half a mind to wipe this post clean... But I don't think the mod can honestly kill me and leave you... so... Ehh I'll risk it...

Simple version. your mistaken.

[Adel]

vote Korlash

good job ckd.

[Korlash]

You were already voting me...

*sighs* misinformation is better then no information I suppose...

[curiouskarmadog]

I wont OMGUS that. I acknowledge there was something similar to this happening at the exact same time in another.. what is the word.. forum activity

But if you do plan on holding that against me I would like you to carefully check those dates again. If you want to hold me to it fine, but your case holds more weight on the other.. activity... as it happened AFTER the one on this... activity...

Hmmm... Pushing It I think... Isn't this the game we keep getting in trouble for doing this? ...

I have half a mind to wipe this post clean... But I don't think the mod can honestly kill me and leave you... so... Ehh I'll risk it...

Simple version. your mistaken.

LOL, so you know what I am talking about then (and only 9 minutes to reply) ...like I said, others can meta and compare dates if they so desire.

my vote isnt just on that..(that was the proverbial feather),

I simply do not buy your claim, your "boredom", or the fact you dont care if people vote you either.

[curiouskarmadog]

vote Korlash

good job ckd.

your vote was already on him.

but thanks, I guess.

[Adel]

vote Korlash

'cause something worth doing once is worth doing thrice

the 9min thing is pretty damning

[Korlash]

yeah.. 9 minutes in the right direction. I felt it was odd the same subject coming up twice in a row...

Also on a side note, do you guys have a life? Or do you spend it all day "metaing me"? I just find it funny you found this.

I'll be honest with you I personally think this PROVES how naive I was about the Mafia RB... I don't see how you think it is the opposite... Unless we are not on the same page here.. (LITERALLY XD ha ha ha ha)

[curiouskarmadog]

"do I have a life" says the guy playing on online forum game. you know we have caught you so you have to result to insults...classy.

for those who will meta. this is the post where he indicated (and just reconfirmed) that he didnt know what a mafia RB was..

but he's claimed Roleblocker, so I don't understand why there's still four votes on him.

Yeah but they all seem to think I meant "mafia Roleblocker" or whatever that is... I am not a prostitute! (Well... maybe on the weekends...)

post 644, dated 11/14


also reposting again his (re)confirming that he did not know what a mafia RB was. Ignore the joke, but I guess we are used to doing that by now.

No, at the time I did not even know there was a mafia RB. I had read about it in the wiki so long ago, but it never stuck in my mind. I have read it up and I am insulted you all thought I was a prostitute... geeze... jerks...

[Jitsu]

Korlash said this in post 585 (Mon Nov 12)

Theres a mafia RB too? o.O Now that role would work... cause then you would at least have some kind of understanding of who could be who... Instead of having to guess...

I see what CKD and Adel are talking about. CKD has found meta evidence that suggests that Korlash should have known about Mafia RBs. And this evidence occurs less than a week BEFORE his post quoted above.

It isn't really hard to find either. Once I read CKD's post, I found it in about 5 minutes. It isn't necessary to do a lot of reading.

I admit, this does not look good for Korlash.

Korlash, why did you say they were mistaken at first and then seem to know what they were talking about?