Mini 532: Yaw's Split Open Mafia: (Game over)

[Phate]

Oh, I hadn't even figured the Doc into the equation. When you throw in the doc, that makes the plan even better. I wouldn't presume to tell the doc who to protect, because 1) I don't think we can count on both rolemanipulators AND the doc being protown, and more importantly 2) telling the doc who to protect more or less guarantees scum won't attack them, wasting the night for the doc.

But doc, I don't think it's too hard to figure out a good plan of action.

[QuickBen]

Wow. I thought I had OD'd on turkey for a minute there.

unvote

I see a Cunning Plan has been proposed.

After looking it over, I don't see how it will work really. I'm willing to go along with it, but I see a lot of "if's" needing to happen in order for it to work.

If the reopener isn't scum...
If the scum and sk don't kill the reopener/switcher/doc early on...

Another problem is that the cop's investigations might not be passed on to his or her successor. If the scum kill the cop early on, the switcher would have to work to outwit them on his own (provided he isn't scum). There's just too much WIFOM for us to really debate it.

*IF* we can get our ducks in a row, *AND* we lucked out on getting all the power roles, *AND* the scum and sk don't get lucky, *THEN* this plan has a good chance of breaking the game.

I guess I'm willing to go forward with this plan until someone can improve on it or come up with something better.

[Phate]

If the reopener isn't scum...

Why are you singling out the reopener? It won't work if the switcher is scum, either.

The doc is not necessary. He just sweetens the pot.

We can talk about what the cop should do on D2, after he's had an investigation.

[QuickBen]

I guess mainly because the reopener is our only chance to fix any booboos in lynching or make up for a power role killed in the night. The role switcher would also hurt us a lot if he's scum, true.

[Thanatos]

I admit I forgot to factor the Doc into this. That's a bit better. And, as I believe I said, Phate, you argued it to the point where I feel your logic is sound. I just have a bad feeling. Is that so wrong?

[Thanatos]

Scum gets: confirmed identity of one vanilla per day, chance to claim vanilla in order to get a (new) power.

Town gets: a powerrole on a vanilla every night until one of the role manipulators die. Depending on who the scum target, this functions as either protection for the existing powerroles or a recycling of powerroles.

Fixed a tag

They also get, by process of elimination, all of the people who are NOT townies. my feeling is that townies are buffers, to a) keep the town from being over powered and B) to give the power roles a place to hide. If we slowly out all of our vanillas, we slowly out everyone who is not a vanilla by elimination. The benifit gained from this plan could wind up backfiring in a few ways. If the role manips die early, if the scum kill the vanilla..we could get very little for our claims. THAT is why I believe this could help the scum more than us.

You want to know what I think? This is a good plan for a scum to suggest. They can manipulate it in a few diffrent ways and use it to take control of the towns actions. I do not think you are scum, however. I don't know, really, why you believe so much in this plan. I just have a bad feeling. Too much risk, potentially negligable reward.

However, I cannot argue my way out of the plan, at least for today. So I'm willing to follow along with it. For now.

[Phate]

You came around about the time other players started saying that it was a good idea. That means you blow with the wind; doesn't prove anything for the Thantown case.

Having a bad feeling isn't wrong. Making an assertion multiple times without supporting it is, especially when the assertion is against a protown plan.

That's the biggest lead I have at this time. If I see someone do something scummier, I'll remove my vote.

[Phate]

EBWOP, as I began posting before your last one:

You're a retard. It's much better odds for scum to randomly strike out or make an educated guess on the powerroles than it is to make a plan that almost forces them to lynch vanilla every night.

And this is incredibly pretentious, but yes, disagreeing with my plan is scummy until you can come up with a better argument than that.

[Thanatos]

No it's not. The plan doesn't force them to lynch vanilla at all. It mearly lets them know who a vanilla is. They have no obligation to kill the vanilla just because it's there. All they REALLY get is the identity of one vanilla.

I've explained my feeling as best as I can. Yes, it is pretentious. I simply disagree in your statement that the risks are worth the potential rewards. That's all there is to it. Frankly, I think that the way your holding onto your plan is ridiculous.

I mean really. I disagree with your plan, I'm scummy. I tell you why I feel that way, I'm scummy. I decide to let you go through with the plan, I'm scummy. If I were to relent and agree with you, do you think it would no longer be scummy. Hell, it'd be even more so, at least, it would be if I was someone else observing.

So, basicly, no matter what I do, or why I do it, I'm scummy in your eyes. That's not scum hunting, that's locking on, and you know it. What I want to know is "why?"

[Korlash]

Man who the hell mentioned the Doc? You need to be shot... (haha literally )

Dammit Phate I thought we were on to something there... Now i see you didn't even see it... *sigh*

I guess it was more then I could have hoped for I suppose...

[Thanatos]

Man who the hell mentioned the Doc? You need to be shot... (haha literally )

Dammit Phate I thought we were on to something there... Now i see you didn't even see it... *sigh*

I guess it was more then I could have hoped for I suppose...

I'm confused. can you explain that post to me.

[Korlash]

Look if no one said anything then the mafia would do as I said, and kill the vanilla. While the doc would protect it. Thus making he plan completely awesome!!! Now that it has been said... it has all gone down the crapper.. so to speak...

[Phate]

Not even close. I've explained what you've done that's scummy.

You came around about the time other players started saying that it was a good idea. That means you blow with the wind; doesn't prove anything for the Thantown case.

Having a bad feeling isn't wrong. Making an assertion multiple times without supporting it is, especially when the assertion is against a protown plan.

That's not locking on, that's scumhunting. What I want to know is "why are you so nervous with only two votes on you?" And also "why are you only targeting me and not the other dude?"

[Thanatos]

...I;m not targeting you, and I'm not nervous in the least. I'm targeting your plan, which I feel helps the Scum. That's also why I don't care what that other guy thinks.

Ok, let me try to explain to you my position on this plan.

You do not believe your plan to be without flaws and risks, right? Few plans escape them. I looked at the risks (Scum knowing who the vanillas and, by extension, who the powers are more likely to be, and who receives the new powers) and the rewards (making sure the powers that are regained by the opener and switcher are only given to powerless players) give bigger benefit to the scum than the Town. That is what I believe. It's not baseless at all. you may disagree with that, and thats fine. What AMAZES me is your refusal to agree to disagree.

[Korlash]

Stubborn people... man... But I'm one to talk eh? =D

[Thanatos]

Korlash, what's your opinion? On me and the plan itself. I think I missed it.

[Korlash]

On you? Eh... You seem to be getting a lot of unnecessary heat from this. But I think it gives a good stand on both you and Phate so i see no harm in letting it continue.

On the plan? i thought it was great until the doc thing got outed. Now I just see it as a good way to force who the Nk is.

[kabenon007]

I am going to have to say that Thanatos comes out on top of this one. He is taking unneeded heat from this, just for holding to his opinion. He brings up good points. Phate's plan does have flaws, I can't see why he just doesn't admit it, but that is Phate's playstyle. I've been suckered into thinking he was scum for it before, so I'm not going to vote him for it. But I think Phate's plan could work, but it would take luck, extenuating circumstances, but I don't like the town running full blown into a plan that could cripple us as well.

[Phate]

Ok. Let's agree to disagree. There, all done. Doesn't change anything. Did you mean "agree to diagree and then unvote me," or are you good?

Let's get a list of your behaviour.

Saying that my plan was scummy w/out backing it up the second time = scummy
Saying that my plan was scummy w/out backing it up the first time = mildly scummy
Coming around about the time other players said it was a good idea = mildly scummy
Having a bad feeling about my plan = neutral
Coming up with NON-BS reasons after pressure was placed on you = somewhat protown
Pointing out actual flaws in my plan = protown

All in all, I don't find you terribly scummy. I've actually got my eye over on kabenon, who, as Korlash pointed out, is being noncommital.

But votes aren't just about who to lynch, they're also about pressure. And considering the extraordinary amount of stress that L-5 is putting you at, I'm interested enough to keep my vote here until someone else does something a bit scummier.

[Phate]

EBWOP: Oh, geez, Kabenon, way to prove me wrong on being noncommittal while I'm posting that you are.

[Phate]

Oh, and note: My plan doesn't have "flaws." My plan has a "tradeoff" that is "beneficial" for "town."

[Phate]

Oh, and another thing: I'm not putting any heat on Thanatos, actually. All his posts for the last page or so have been trying to get me to unvote him, and (more-or-less) all mine have been reactions to his.

[Thanatos]

Ok. Let's agree to disagree. There, all done. Doesn't change anything. Did you mean "agree to diagree and then unvote me," or are you good?

Let's get a list of your behaviour.

Saying that my plan was scummy w/out backing it up the second time = scummy
Saying that my plan was scummy w/out backing it up the first time = mildly scummy
Coming around about the time other players said it was a good idea = mildly scummy
Having a bad feeling about my plan = neutral
Coming up with NON-BS reasons after pressure was placed on you = somewhat protown
Pointing out actual flaws in my plan = protown

All in all, I don't find you terribly scummy. I've actually got my eye over on kabenon, who, as Korlash pointed out, is being noncommital.

But votes aren't just about who to lynch, they're also about pressure. And considering the extraordinary amount of stress that L-5 is putting you at, I'm interested enough to keep my vote here until someone else does something a bit scummier.

Nope, I'm good. We seem to (finally) understand each other. That's all I wanted. You seem to believe that I'm pressured or panicked. I was simply annoyed that you didn't understand me, and seemed to vote me all of a sudden.

You see tradeoffs, I see exploitable flaws. We shall see who's right, in the end. (And yes, it may be you)

[Thanatos]

Oh, I can't help but notice that Phate lays off the second some people come out in support of me. It could just be a coinicidence, but I'm going to remember that.

[Korlash]

Unvote him? Dude... You have been systematically attacking him for having an opinion... He has been defending himself... I don;t know what yoru doing here but I think your rasping at straws...

Also, not that it makes any difference to you guys but I know the last time i pushed a "Pro-Town game plan/strategy" that was actually logically BEST FOR TOWn, I was scum. Just a thought. What better way for a scum to hide then as the town hero right?

As for your so called "trade-offs"... No... Not beneficial to town... Um... More... Less bad scenario for town. such as... Instead of losing both the Doc AND cop, we woudl only lose let's say the Doc. Not good for town, but a hell of a lot better then the alternative. THAT is a very very good example/sum up of what your plan may do tonight. Can you honestly call that beneficial to town? That my friend is a flaw, not an unacceptable flaw, but still a flaw.

I think Phate is trying too hard to convince us just how great the plan is, and he is intentionally trying to sugar coat the downsides. Stop it.

I've actually got my eye over on kabenon, who, as Korlash pointed out, is being noncommital.

Sorry... not so good with the memory thing... where did I do this?

Oh, I can't help but notice that Phate lays off the second some people come out in support of me. It could just be a coinicidence, but I'm going to remember that.

Noted yes... prove he is scum? no... Prove he is coming to his senses a bit? yes...