Mini 536: Heroes Smalltown. Game Over!

[Thestatusquo]

I really want micah....I hope no one takes it.

[Thestatusquo]

Believe me, Jdodge will help us lynch Oman, but ZONEFACE is the first bandwagon.

[Thestatusquo]

Ando

[Thestatusquo]

[Thestatusquo]

Vote: Zoneface

[Thestatusquo]

Confirm vote: Zoneface

Stop lurking.

[Thestatusquo]

FoS: mathcam

[Thestatusquo]

Policy OMGUS

VOTE TSQ

So he admits it. I say we lynch the bastard.

[Thestatusquo]

fos: Jdodge

[Thestatusquo]

unfos Jdodge, mathcam

Wow...I was completely wrong there.

[Thestatusquo]

It was pretty obvious to me that CKD was being sarcastic. In my mind, it looked like you and jdodge were deliberately misinterpreting his post to make him look bad. I was obviously quite wrong, as he WAS serious.

[Thestatusquo]

fos CKD

for his reaction to cam. That was rather unusual.

K, how bout some not already discussed insight?

[Thestatusquo]

fos CKD

for his reaction to cam. That was rather unusual.

K, how bout some not already discussed insight?

no thats all i got for now.

I wonder if you have been paying attention to the thread, then, because I have "got" significantly more. Why would you say that you haven't gleaned any more from the thread than that tidbit?

[Thestatusquo]

I wasn't clear. That's the only insight i felt like sharing so far. My bad.

Really? So you dont think Mathcams system is worth discussing? Why not? Also, I wonder what you could have possibly noticed that you do not feel like sharing. Isn't it generally in the towns best interests to share all information that they have? I mean, in general the only thing I don't like to bring up are breadcrumbing and stuff like that, but thats not exactly RELEVANT in this game, is it?

(also, noted your post, so if you don't share later expect me to come down on you pretty hard for it.)

[Thestatusquo]

Well, let's see if I can contribute a little to this discussion.

I think Eden, Nathan and Peter are dangerous in the hands of scum, especially if two or more are partnered together, and can cause a lot chaos in town without town realising it.

HRG and the Haitian will be very helpful if pro-town but the Haitian's immunity to Powers has a lot more advantage as anti-town. If the Haitian is pro-town, the immunity is useful only to prevent anti-town Ted from suiciding on him and anti-town Eden from redirecting him. So I do agree that HRG is more pro-town than the Haitian if you go by a certain logic.

Ted is... well, not very helpful as scum and even worse as an SK. Anti-town Linderman is useless too, other than the town not having a doc.

Ando? Ando is Ando and nothing more can be said about him.

I don't have anything on Mohinder and DL though and I would be interested in some discussion about their respective abilities and usefulness as pro-town and danger as anti-town.

And finally, we have the Investigation Roles. Matt and Claude are just the usual Tracker and Watcher stuff. I personally think they are more helpful as pro-town than anti-town but it might be WIFOM since I'm Claude.

Now, I haven't actually looked into all the roles into the finest detail but that's what I've gathered from first and second impressions.

Since there has been actual discussion, how about actual comments about the players in this game? THis discussion is bad insofar as it doesn't get us any closer to finding scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Bah I got off to a really bad start in this game. First off, I didn't read Cam's initial post closely enough. I should have noticed he was just putting the idea of Eden being most antitown out there. Also, like CKD and TSQ I had the feeling that he was pushing for a policy lynch, and not simple pressure. For this reason I think I should

WOAH WOAH WOAH. Show me the post where I ever came ever close to saying that mathcam was pushing for a policy lynch? Like, don't try to drag me down with your crappy logic, dude.

[Thestatusquo]

WOAH WOAH WOAH. Show me the post where I ever came ever close to saying that mathcam was pushing for a policy lynch? Like, don't try to drag me down with your crappy logic, dude.

unfos Jdodge, mathcam

Wow...I was completely wrong there.

Sorry I inferred that's what your FoS's were about since they were comepletely unaccompanied by any explanation. If you'd explain a bit more then I wouldn't end up using such crappy logic.

No, your crappy logic is not at all a product of others, it's a product of you alone. If you have a question about what I feel about something, ask, instead of making an assumption about it.

[Thestatusquo]

Could we have a prod on adele, please. She has made two posts all game.

[Thestatusquo]

psssst... Reading the thread is tech.

It was pretty obvious to me that CKD was being sarcastic. In my mind, it looked like you and jdodge were deliberately misinterpreting his post to make him look bad. I was obviously quite wrong, as he WAS serious.

[Thestatusquo]

Its possible that it could give you a limited severely limited cop role, so I would say go ahead and use it.

[Thestatusquo]

Horrendous use of wifom by the way. Wifom refers to a set of two or more possibilities with approximately equal chance of happening. For instance, it would be wifom to say "the mafia wouldn't leave the claimed cop alive because then he could hurt them" but if they know that you think this, then it's to their benefit to leave her alive, because you'll waste a lynch, but if they know you know they think you think this... And it goes on and on and on. Thats wifom.

Saying that you think a role is most likely used as pro town is not wifom for several reasons. One, theres no subset of equally likely choices. You would say it whether town or scum, and theres really no reason at all you'd say it as anything else. Two, it's not circular. There is no recursive logic there, there is only "A possible reason they might be saying it is because they have that role"

Shrug. I shouldn't go on tirades like that. I'm not an IC, and this isn';t a noobie game.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, what do we gain from having oman change the roles of those two players?

[Thestatusquo]

OHHHH! Missread your post. You advised against it. I thought you advised him to do oit.

[Thestatusquo]

Dodge, please explain what you didn't like about those posts?

Adele: Not a gender specific name? His name is O-MAN for Medusa's sakes. :-p

[Thestatusquo]

Dodge, please explain what you didn't like about those posts?

I already did

I'm a confirmed townie, the only one I know. Why wouldn't I want to do that?

I dislike the way this is said

By that I assume you mean how he said "I'm a confirmed townie." instead of something along the lines of "I'm the only player I know to be town." If thats the case, I think that's complete bunk.

*gently nudges zoneace*


I asked you some questions, bub. It's not fair of you to all up and leave the thread on me.

[Thestatusquo]

They're siblings. Seol and Rainbowbrite are the same person.

[Thestatusquo]

Yeah...False results can easily be given which could end up hurting the town. Bad news.

[Thestatusquo]

Just for the record, I'm not scum.

Confirm vote: Zoneface

Then perhaps you'd like to answer the questions I asked you which you are now blatantly ignoring.

[Thestatusquo]

Could you be a little more desperate? I mean really. We all know you're a jack ass that likes to harass me, lets try not to make this person ok?

What the hell dude? I don't care if you're the president of Brazil, if you blatantly ignore me, I am going to vote you. I asked you very relevant questions 3 days ago, and bumped them, so that you couldn't possibly miss them if you were reading the thread. I even added "gentle nudge" to the text of said questions. Then you posted a trite pointless, contentless reply (which I find a tad scummy too) instead of responding to me. I am NOT being unreasonable here.

[Thestatusquo]

actually, I think TSQ's being a bit over-aggressive here. His questions to zoneace comes down to a barked order to post more and post better, yet his most recent post implies to the casual observer (ie me, before I ran TSQ's post record) that Zoneace was asked specific questions about his behaviour and asked to make account for them.

Really? So you dont think Mathcams system is worth discussing? Why not? Also, I wonder what you could have possibly noticed that you do not feel like sharing. Isn't it generally in the towns best interests to share all information that they have? I mean, in general the only thing I don't like to bring up are breadcrumbing and stuff like that, but thats not exactly RELEVANT in this game, is it?

This seems more like a rant than a list of questions that TSQ burningly wants to hear the answer to.

If you want Zoneace to contribute more - and that might be justified - then make it clear that it's

that

that you're asking for. But his posts, while short and not hugely contributory, have been reasonably regular, and seem adequate for this stage of the game. I think you seem overly hyper, tsq, and overly pissed-off at others who are merely moderate.

I think thats a load of crap, adele. Regardless of how I delivered questions to him (and I disagree with you that it was in an unacceptable fashion.) the fact remains that I not only asked him questions, but then brought them up later on in a way which was not confrontational at all. Regardless of how I phrased the questions, it was a DIRECT request for input, which Zoneace ignored.

[Thestatusquo]

I asked him several questions...If it would please you for me to list them out, I will:

1) Does he not consider mathcams voting system worth talking about?
2) If so, why not?
3) In a theoretical sense, give me an example of something that you would not disclose d1 when you already know everyones roles.
4) I generally wanted a reply to my suggestion that "perhaps he was just saying he saw stuff that he didn't." in order to make it look like he was being more active and helpful in this game than he really was. It's a tactic I've seen scum use many times. Say things like "Oh...I've already got 3 concrete scumtells." Well, if you do indeed, what reason is there you would not like to share them with the rest of the town. If zoneace really has noticed something, it would probably be beneficial to get it out there and help the town achieve a non random d1 lynch, or, as I see as HIGHLY more likely, zoneace is talking bollocks, in which case, I plan to make him todays non random lynch.

[Thestatusquo]

Um...Unless you're counting the SK as a "scumgroup" then I'm missing something, shaft.d

[Thestatusquo]

The thing is...Directing is only bad in a closed setup where the town is not able to plan what will happen because there are too many unknowns. In this case, we know the whole scenario, so we can plan for all contingencies. Town directing different roles is a good thing, individuals directing them is not. I think what we have here is a clear case of the town (Including yourself) trying to direct oman as to make him the most possible use to the town.

I think you're completely overreacting here.

FOS: Shaft'ed

[Thestatusquo]

Ooops. I mean

fps: CKD

Not shaft.ed

[Thestatusquo]

Has the town unanimously agreed to this course of action? Is there any “direction” or plan for the town that the mafia can know about that wont hurt the town if they have said knowledge? I don’t think I am overreacting, but maybe the vote is premature.

Unvote, FoS DAS

I don’t like being directed to do anything and I don’t like providing information to the scum before I make a decision. Now, I will be the first in line to tell you what I did “last night” but don’t expect me to tell scum what I will do before I do it.

Currently I don’t have a problem with discussing roles and what is or isn’t a good idea, but I don’t think I want to sign up for being directed. Exception to this, is if the town collectively agrees that a certain action or inaction is best all around, but I haven’t seen this yet.

Town directing different roles is a good thing,

What do you have in mind?

I don't like this post for a couple of reasons.

1) I don't like how he half backed away from his guns and half didn't. He says he doesn't think he's overreacting, but removes the vote, as if trying to placate me.

2) Attacks me by saying "the town has not come to a unanimous decision when it was pretty plain that this is not at all what I was claiming. Remember, he attacked DAS for suggesting a course of action within a town discussion of what certain players should do. Then he sarcastically says thats "the town hasn't reached a consensus." well, how can the town reach a consensus if you're attacking everyone who chimes in on the issue? Hmm? This whole attack feels ungenuine. Especially with the begining of his third paragraph, where he tells us he "doesn't have a problem with discussing whats a good idea and what isn't for certain roles"

Im just going to try and help were I can. If you think im not giving enough please let me know and I will get myself replaced.
Claude ( Yseer ) If I had your role I would be looking at one of these 3 people
Here I my reasons why.
Mathcam: His role is dangerous in mafia hands the longer we go on the more dangerous it becomes. Even if he is town then I would like to know who was visiting him. If he is not their when you get their, we could have our SK
Adele: I would want to know exactly which powers she is getting and why. I think it would be helpful for judging her and her targeters alignments.
Omen: Similar reasons as Mathcams

Which 3 people do you think I should be looking at and why?

Whoops...Looks like that was all DAS was doing in the first place. So you've just admitted that you attacked him for something that you "have no problem with."

As to your question at the end, shaft.ed pretty much said everything I would, although I'd like to note I do not appreciate him speaking for me, and I have noted it as possible buddying up.

[Thestatusquo]

Oh, forgot

Vote: Curiouskarmadog

fos:shaft.ed, fos zoneface

Last FOS is to show zonyboy I haven't forgotten about him. I'd like a response to the post I gave to adele in clarification of my original questions, if you don't mind.

[Thestatusquo]

Post number is 174 for zoneaces reference.

[Thestatusquo]

*sigh*

[Thestatusquo]

In a sense, yes.

[Thestatusquo]

Yes, I did find something strange about the comment, sahft.ed but I would like to hear what you find strange about it first.

[Thestatusquo]

I missread you, apologies.

[Thestatusquo]

'lo?

[Thestatusquo]

Yeah...I've been thinking about this for a while, and the person I most want to see swing is zoneace. Literally the only things he has done this game are:

1) Posted saying he had noticed one thing.
2) When pressured said he had noticed more, but was witholding it.
3) Ignored questioning about that.
4) Posted something to the effect of "I'm totally not scum, I promise."
5) Said I was attacking him for OOG reasons, while STILL ignoring my questions.
6) Lurked like a mother fucker.

Unvote, Vote: Zoneace

FoS: Stay on CKD and Shaft.ed

[Thestatusquo]

You know, just because I don't like you doesn't mean I am bringing that into the game. I joke voted you to start the game, that was it. I have been playing the game genuinely, and fairly. In fact, I even spent a significant portion of today voting someone besides you. Just because you want to dispel my attacks on you as some sort of "policy lynch" where I am ignoring everything else just to attack you does not mean you get to ignore the facts. Since you're ignoring my legitimate in game actions because of some preconceived notion of why I am doing them, YOU are the one bringing outside thoughts into this game, not me. In fact, so far I would hazard to say that you are not even PLAYING this game, seeing as your posting history can legitimately be boiled down to what I say in my previous post. I mean, do you have any problem with that summary? Is there something I'm missing? For the love of god could you play this game?

Secondly, I even granted you the possibility that you did not want to share stuff specific to this game. If that's such a big deal, could you at least respond to my post 174? Come on...Are you really going to try to just brush me off because we don't get along OOG? I repeat, I am not being unreasonable here.

[Thestatusquo]

And completely ignores my post....

[Thestatusquo]

Sorry for absence - will post in about half an hour.

will post when I get a second

I approve of this product and/or service.

[Thestatusquo]

Can the rest of the town please comment on whats going on between zoneace and myself right now.

[Thestatusquo]

Mathcam, I'm sorry if you think that. If you really think that "cold and calculating" describes me as a player, than you haven't meta'd me particularly well. I will say it right now, I don't have the linguistic skills to "be careful about my words" to make myself seem like the victim when I am in fact the antagonizer.

My general strategy with players I don't like is not to antagonize them, it's to request replacement, which is something I'm very close to doing right now. I've been playing this game completely in earnest and have not been bringing OOG feelings into it. I don't understand how the fact that I don't like zoneace personally means I necessarily can't find him legitimately scummy. If it gets to that point, then I really don't think I can play this game anymore. Giving someone a carteblanche merely because the person thats attacking them has negative history with them...Well that just defeats the entire purpose of playing this game.

[Thestatusquo]

Well, the point wasn't that I didn't know he's react this way; I did. The point was that I saw him do/say things which I believed legitimately deserved attention, so I pointed them out. Then, he completely ignored me, which I felt deserved even more attention. I guess what I'm asking you is, to what extend am I supposed to ignore his scummy behavior just because I know that he's going to get angry for no reason?

[Thestatusquo]

Wait, DAS, when did I "needlessly insult" ZA?

[Thestatusquo]

I'm confused about what you're driving at here.

[Thestatusquo]

In my opinion...No lynching is just silly. The biggest harm bandwagoning d1 can do to the town is out poweroles...Well, guess what, we don't have to worry about that. Just because you can't get a claim out of someone doesn't mean that a good ol' fashioned bandwagon isn't healthy, and good for reads. In addition, we need to lynch eventually. We're never going to find scums by just evaluating night actions, you find scums by reading wagons and lynches and who stayed off and who pressured without voting etc etc etc etc. Giving up the towns biggest means towards gathering concrete data is, IMHO, Stupid.

[Thestatusquo]

I think you claiming that a post 18 minutes later was a "cross post" is a tad disingenuous.

[Thestatusquo]

Well, for one thing I am already suspicious of how you've seemed to parrot me this game, even going so far as to answer a question that was directed at me. It seems like a convienient way to buddy up to me while seeming like it was your own logic.

Mathcam, want to explain why those two players are up there for you?

[Thestatusquo]

I'd like a prod on Jdodge and oman, actually. I can't recall hearing anything relevant from either of them lately.

[Thestatusquo]

Mathcam, want to explain why those two players are up there for you?

Meh, not really, insofar as I don't have much insight to hand out. I don't have particularly pro-town vibes for them, whereas I do for some other people. Notably, Oman's "we'll TRUST her" post seems like fake overconcern for the town, and -- hm, I don't know why I had JDodge there, except that I previously said I found him mildly scummy. In any case, completely independently, they are also the two roles ranked most anti-town by shaft.ed's post 271.

Cam

if oman does come up scum at any point, that would probably clear adele in my mind, because I can't see oman warning the town about giving his scumbuddy extra powers, especially as stretching as he was.

[Thestatusquo]

The statement "If oman had any brain power" Is a tenuous one at best.

[Thestatusquo]

Vote: Shaft.ed

[Thestatusquo]

Thats it. I would like to be replaced, please. I'm not willing to deal with zoneaces antagonism anymore. I play mafia games to have fun, not be taunted at every move I make.

[Thestatusquo]

The point is I want to play a game of mafia, not have all my actions looked at through the lens of "does he like zoneace" If I wanted that, I'd go to marriage counseling with the guy.

[Thestatusquo]

*deep breath*

Okay, that wasn't my point. I didn't want people to comment on the me-Zone interaction because of the oog implications. i wanted people to comment because I thought it was incredibly game relevant. I would continue playing this game only if Zoneace will stop trying to pass off every action I make as somehow having to do with him. Otherwise, I am out of here. Zoneace, you willing to do that?

Now, the reasoning for the vote is simple. Shaft.ed's attacks on Oman seem one tracked. It seems like he's ignoring most of the game and just focusing myopically on Oman. This to me looks like a player attempting to play in a hyper attacking style to mask the fact that he's really not paying too much attention to the game. A fact which has been born out in several situations where he has really shown that he hasn't been reading the thread very carefully. (asking questions which had already been asked a couple posts up comes to mind.) Additionally, he seems to be testing the waters here, in his last post. To me, the last post almost screams

Am I going to be able to misslynch this guy, or should I move on to someone else.

I'll admit that a lot of this is influenced by the fact that I don't think the case against oman is very strong. But I think the case against shaft.ed is there regardless of it you think Oman is scum or not. (could be aggressive bussing)

[Thestatusquo]

Um...You're definitely missing something here. What he is saying is definitely indicative of alignment.

[Thestatusquo]

His comment is very similar to the sentiment of not lynching a claimed cop d1. He's saying that to him, he's not going to lynch the investigative roles d1 regardless of what allignment they are, unless they do something majorly scummy. This is probably because he thinks it's better to leave them alive based on the possibility of helpfulness. Your attack doesn't even begin to make sense, given the context of what he's actually saying.

[Thestatusquo]

Adele, I disagree too strongly with the LAL meta. If someone is caught in a lie, I will evaluate it on a case by case basis.

[Thestatusquo]

I have much to lie about.

[Thestatusquo]

Could you please respond to my last question of you?

[Thestatusquo]

Okay, that wasn't my point. I didn't want people to comment on the me-Zone interaction because of the oog implications. i wanted people to comment because I thought it was incredibly game relevant. I would continue playing this game only if Zoneace will stop trying to pass off every action I make as somehow having to do with him. Otherwise, I am out of here. Zoneace, you willing to do that?

Willing to do that?

[Thestatusquo]

Well...I mean OOG. Am I allowed to find you legitimately suspicious in this game? You seem to think not.

[Thestatusquo]

I think we need to get down to lynching someone for today. I will post the people I am willing to lynch, and why, and the people I am not willing to lynch, and why, later today. I suggest everyone else do the same, or, if you're like zoneace, do the same for NL.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, thats how you would rate the roles if there had been no game interaction at all. How about actual game play? How about you plot your players on a Y axis of most scummy, and an X axis of which role you'd rather lynch, and see how that helps you.

[Thestatusquo]

Oman, I asked everyone in the town a question, please go about answering it.

[Thestatusquo]

Hmmm...I would think that zindaras would be a better candidate for replacement than lynch.

[Thestatusquo]

I think we need to get down to lynching someone for today. I will post the people I am willing to lynch, and why, and the people I am not willing to lynch, and why, later today. I suggest everyone else do the same, or, if you're like zoneace, do the same for NL.

Right I will answer this when I have time tomorrow. I just want to point that you get mad at Za and everyone else that doesnt answer

your[/i
questions but you have yet to answer the question yourself in the alotted time you gave.
How you guys find sooo much time for mafia this time of year is amazing. I salute you ..

Shafted: Sorry about the shite english: I always ask poeple to replace me if it gets to confusing...its a long story..Not my native tounge but lived here for years. Worked as a chef and never really needed to write english, unless it was in an email.

I'm sorry, I was drunk last night. I thought it would probably not be the best time to post in the game. I'll do it tonight after I get off work.

[Thestatusquo]

So you're saying you're done playing towards your win condition, and you're just going lie for the hell of it like a petulant child who didn't get her way? If thats the case then we need to lynch you right away. Lying is one thing, it has a pro town use. blatantly saying "I am no longer telling the truth because you're all not going to lynch liars" is decidedly anti town, and I'm willing to lynch you for it right here and now.

Vote: Adele

[Thestatusquo]

What? No, i'm saying if no-one else on this site feels bound by the LAL meta, then my studious avoidance of

ever

lying as town is harmful for the town side at times and I'm not going to hold myself to it any longer.

I'm not gonna lie left right and centre - I'm saying I'd want to be judged on the same scale as everyone else.

Well, you sure as hell sounded like thats what you were saying. As long as you're still playing to your win condition I have no problem with you lying. The way you worded it made me think that you were so fed up with us not adopting LAL that you were going to just lie to punish us, and that is something I can not allow in this game. If this is all a huge misunderstanding, then I apologize. Just, please reassure me you plan on playing towards your win condition in this game, and I will unvote.

[Thestatusquo]

i think we need to worry about the people not willing to lynch liars, cause they're either not playing to their win condition or their playing to a non-town win condition, either way, we should get rid of them.

See, this is why I hate having this discussion. I can think of literally hundreds of reasons a pro town player would lie. I have put forward this view in tons of threads before this game even began. If you'd like to lynch me for it, then fine.

The point is a much more sound strategy is to treat a lie like any other in game action. Does the lie accomplish a town goal, or does it accomplish a anti town goal. If I claim vanilla when I am actually a cop to avoid getting NKed so that I can get to more investigation results, does that mean I'm "not playing to my win condition...Or to an anti-town win condition?" No, of course not. It means I'm playing the game smart. There are plenty of times when lying is anti town, and in those situations it should be a reason to lynch, but to say that any lie is inherently anti town is foolish.

[Thestatusquo]

My point was not to claim that people should lie in this game, but rather that I will not rule out the possibility that there is a legitimate reason for town to lie in this game. I refuse to ever take on a standard which dictates that I lynch a person EVERY time they do X, because I firmly believe there is no such thing as universality in this game. If someone gets caught in a lie in this game, I will evaluate it when it happens, through the lens of "Is this a pro town, or an anti town action."

Anything else, I believe, is a cop out, and is not sound town play.

[Thestatusquo]

Zoneace, my example was pretty clearly not directly related to this game. You would know that, if you were at all reading my responses for any reason other than to try to find inconsistancies to ridicule me on. Pretty damn opportunistic.

[Thestatusquo]

Anything else, I believe, is a cop out, and is not sound town play.

and how is lying a sound town play??? honestly, in this set up its not. We know the roles, we know what they do, and we know who has them. What else is there?? If someone lies about who they targeted or the result they got, then we should lynch them because they are witholding inportant or falsifying true information from the town, and that is strictly ANTI TOWN

1) That is not at all my point. What I was saying was that I REFUSE to rule out the possibility that there is a legitimate reasons someone might not lie. I am not the be all, end all of intellect, and neither are you. Therefore, I feel it is reasonable for me to expect that there are scenarios within any given game which can occur than I wouldn't expect to occur. As such, I will look at a specific lie, and determine if that lie was anti town or pro town, just like any other in game action, and I will decide whether or not to lynch on that fact, and that fact alone. I really don't see what is so unreasonable about that.

2) I am not going to lie, but if I did, I would think that it would be viewed as pro town because I don't really have any anti town things to lie about.

3)

we should lynch them because they are witholding...information

I find this statement PARTICULARLY interesting, considering it is EXACTLY what I was attacking you for earlier in the game. I agree. If someone is witholding information for no particular reason, we should lynch them for it. If, however, they have a reason which they feel the need to with hold it for, and that reason is in the towns interest, then we should not. I will say this clearly, and I will say it again. You better have some damn good reason for why you're withholding what you "saw" earlier in the game. And if you were just lying to get me off your back, then I see that as DIRECTLY undermining discussion, and I will consider it very anti town indeed.

[Thestatusquo]

Ding ding ding ding.

Folks, we have a winner.

First of all,

Vote: Zoneace

And that vote will not be moved. I will explain why in the rest of this post.

You see, my last post contained one of my very favorite trap tells. In fact, it's one I actually learned from the mod of this game (I was reading WIFOMs league game, where he employed it.) It's called dwa, or deliberately weak argument.

This is the logic from which is flows: There are two ways to argue in a game of mafia. There is one which attempts to use logic, and understanding to find scum. This kind of argumentation takes reason, and uses the assumption that the other sides alignment is not determined. This is used by town players, and good scum players who are attempting to look townie. Then there is the other kind of argumentation. This is the style where the person is trying to "win the argument" To score points. This is a strategy generally used by scum because they already know alignment, and are not interested in discovering the truth, but rather in making their opponent look stupid, or bad, and making themselves look right.

DWA seeks to emphasize this fact. You'll notice the second point in my last post looks out of place. Thats done purposefully. That argument is clearly flawed, and wrong. I did that purposefully. You'll notice that the other two arguments in the post are well reasoned, logical, and probably right. The idea, is that someone using the first style of argumentation will substantively respond to the first and third arguments, as they are very game relevant, and someone interested in finding the truth would want to discuss them. Someone using the second style of argumentation would go straight for argument number two, as it is a slam dunk, can't miss, I'm going to make you look really stupid argument.

Zoneace went for the second one.

I will not be unvoting him.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, let me note that while I was typing this shaft.ed posted, IGNORING the second reply, and substantively responding to the first and second. This is a Solid town tell for me from shaft.ed.

[Thestatusquo]

You're arguing substntively still. In fact, you didn't even attempt to score a point off of the second point, but rather simply asked me to clarify.

[Thestatusquo]

ugh, shea, you are so pointless, im not even gonna waste my vote on you. you have nothing to add to the game, you're just an annoyance is best ignored i see. You still havent explained how you would have anything protown to lie about. Why do you keep setting up a defense for your future lies? Honestly, your presence in this game is without anything point. We don't need you. but its not even worth it to lynch you.


So anyone that actually can make a difference in this game and wants the town to win have anything to add?

Thats your response? Seriously? Thats it? You're just going to roll over and die?

P.S. I already explained how that was a false argument, and not one I'm actually persueing.

[Thestatusquo]

Well, I'm not unvoting. *shrug* DWA is one of the strongest tells I've found, and I'm not going to brush it off lightly.

Mathcam: Jdodge is also one of my top suspects in this game. His lurking and argumentation style fit the mold of scum. Right now, I feel we could be viewing some heavy distancing between Jdodge and zoneace. However, I would take this with a grain of salt because Jdodges style ALWAYS seems to be lurky non contributy. Makes him difficult to read. If I had to place him, he'd be in my top 3 scum.

[Thestatusquo]

How would you rate seol as a player, zoneace? I'm wondering...

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, here's the answere to my own question: I will preface this by saying this will be quite long, so please set aside a long enough portion of time to digest it all.


People I would probably be willing to lynch today, and why. (note, by far the highest is zoneace, as he has done that tell which I am talking about.) Also, let me note that unlike the rest of you, I am being very agnostic about the roles in this game being open. That is to say, I am going strictly off of how I view the tells, and I am not at all giving anyone a free pass in this game, regardless of role, because ultimately, if the scum have a pro town role, like DAS role, they're still scum in the end. Therefore, if I think someone is scum, they will get my vote, regardless of if they're the bomb, the tracker, or the doctor etc etc etc.

Zoneace:

K. I have several reasons I want to lynch him, and not a single one of them is OOG as he would like to claim. First and foremost is the DWA. In my opinion his actions are not consistent with petulant town, because he quite clearly ignored me earlier when I made a post which contained no weak arguments. That is to say, when I was asking him questions earlier which gave him no ability to attack me, he ignored them. In my mind, if ZA were a townie who was fed up with me, he would continue to simply ignore my posts. Instead, he saw an opportunity where he could "look townie" by shoving me into the mud, and he took it. This is pretty strong if you ask me.

Secondly, there is this:

we should lynch them because they are witholding ...information from the town, and that is strictly ANTI TOWN

(elipses mine)
I am always a big fan of looking at what other people claim to be scumtells, because I am of the firm opinion that most people tend to gather what they consider to be tells from what they themselves tend to do as scum. This means that if someone does something that they themselves call a tell, I consider it a pretty big red flag for lynching them. Remember this statement?

fos CKD

for his reaction to cam. That was rather unusual.

K, how bout some not already discussed insight?

no thats all i got for now.

Which was quickly proceded by this one:

I wasn't clear. That's the only insight i felt like sharing so far. My bad.

So clearly zoneace is witholding something from the rest of the town, which, he's been pretty adament is something that there is no reason to do in this game, since we know everyones roles. And he's also pretty clear on the fact that witholding information is "very anti town."

Now, to look at this from another angle, it's really not possible for zoneace to simultaniously think "witholding information is scummy" and "withold information" This makes me think that there WAS nothing else that he noticed, and he was lying about noticing anything else significant, which puts him in a pretty bad double blind, because we know pretty damn well how he feels about liars.


Third, and lastly, I do not like the way he is prone to misinterpreting statements to make him look better and whoever he is arguing with look worse. Consider these statements.
Exhibit A: What I said.

...
See, this is why I hate having this discussion. I can think of literally hundreds of reasons a pro town player would lie. I have put forward this view in tons of threads before this game even began. If you'd like to lynch me for it, then fine.

The point is a much more sound strategy is to treat a lie like any other in game action. Does the lie accomplish a town goal, or does it accomplish a anti town goal. If I claim vanilla when I am actually a cop to avoid getting NKed so that I can get to more investigation results, does that mean I'm "not playing to my win condition...Or to an anti-town win condition?" No, of course not. It means I'm playing the game smart. There are plenty of times when lying is anti town, and in those situations it should be a reason to lynch, but to say that any lie is inherently anti town is foolish.

(elipses added)
Now, my argument is pretty clearly not against lynching liars. My argument is that lying has possible pro town use, and that when we catch someone in a lie, we should evaluate if that lie was helpful to the town or not, and if it was, we let it be, and if it was not, we lynch the fucker. I back this up with an example of a situation where it might be advantageos for a player to lie, as a means of combatting the LAL meta in general.

I give you exhibit B, Zoneaces interpretation of my post:

. If I claim vanilla when I am actually a cop to avoid getting NKed so that I can get to more investigation results,

Umm did you forget the part of the game where we already know YOU'RE THE ONLY VANILLA IN THE GAME???? In this game lying about your role is pointless, because we friggin know everyone's already. In a normal game, yes a cop claiming vanilla to avoid NK is a viable option, but in a game like this, give me a good reason why i shouldn't lynch someone caught lying?????


I dare you shea. come on. Why are you SO averse to lynching liars. you planning on lying to us later? want to set up your defense now?

First of all, he only focuses on my example. All of a sudden, I have been presented as making a claim about this game. He presents it as obviously false in an attempt to ridicule me. Of course it was obviously false in this game. It's patently obvious from my last post that I wasn't talking about this game specifically (come on, I would have to think you guys are REALLY dumb to try to pass that comment off as relevent to this game in any way other than an example in general of when lying can be beneficial.)

Secondly, all of a sudden I am "averse to lynching liars" a claim that I never made. According to zoneace, I was basically telling everyone to lie, and that I would never ever lynch someone who lies ever. This is a pretty concrete example of whats known as a strawman fallacy, which is another pretty good scum tell. Zoneace is pretending that I was arguing something that I never was in order to make me easier to defeat. He is, in a sense, arguing against a straw man, because he sure as hell isn't arguing against anything I've ever said.

Then, lastly, all of a sudden I have alterior motives. This is another little scumtell of mine, called "poisoning the well" Zoneace is attempting to claim (on the sly) that I hold my opinions that LAL is bad for the reason that I plan on lying, and I am, ostensibly, scum. Something that he would know is not true if he did even the slightest of research about my comments in MD. Basically, I'm one of the loudest proponents of "judge the action by it's game implications, and don't make blanket statements."

I think all of this boils down to a pretty solid case against zoneace. I would be willing to lynch him if it were say day 3-4, but this is flippin day one, so I'm even more willing to do so. This is certainly the best lynch we can hope to get on todays information.

Jdodge,

I don't like how jdodge has taken the path of least resistance this game. If you'll note, he jumps only on people who are being VERY illogical. The first example is CKDs attack of mathcams voting system. The most recent example is his piling onto Zoneace. Neither is a path that is going to draw him much fire. He also has a habit of making posts that seem to say a lot, but in fact say very little. His 12th post in his "show all posts" while too big for me to quote it fully in this analysis, says almost nothing at all to move the game state forward. In fact, all it does really is skirt most issues, and continue the weak pawing at CKD.

Lastly, an excellent catch by Mathcam reveals that Jdodge is falling into a DWA of zonefaces devising. Although I don't think this is deliberate on the part of zoneace, as he was mocking the very concept earlier. The underlying logic is the same. A pro town player would not approach zoneace in the way that Jdodge has. A pro town player would attempt to engage him on a substantive level. Jdodge hasn't even given the slightest illusion of doing that. He's trying to score points, and that's pretty fucking scummy. I rate him my second scummiest in the game.

DAS:

I am not at all happy with how DAS has played this game. He seems to be lurking in plain site. He never chimes in on anything worthwhile. His most significant actions seem to be a) agreeing/disagreeing at the same that no lynch is the best plan for today.

The problem I have is this:
I see were Zone is coming from about the No Lynch, if he’s town but if we were to all take his stance and keep stum then it would be a pretty crap day 1. Im going to

FOS

for today and have another think tomorrow. As you can see he’s not going to t be drawn in to an argument no matter how hard some players try. I can’t see him slipping up and I think it’s a bad idea to lynch his role with the info we have. Which brings me on to TSQ, if Zone answers your questions tomorrow will you stop throwing needless insults at him? Just a thought…I do find it very weird he did not retaliate having just played a game with him though hence another reason for the FOS .
Im not going to vote Nolynch now. (Though there is room\time for me to be convinced). I don’t like the idea of SK and scum getting a free ride. I would rather apply some pressure and see what happens
Gordon, my other

FOS

goes on you. I think you have changed your mind too quickly to many times. You have had strong feelings about votes and other people’s reasons for reducing their vote and then you change your mind. Im not sure how helpful your roll is to town when compared to Zone. Please enlighten me...

And 2) Attacking zindaras for not being around.

I don't care who I am, as long as I get to be Sylar.

I'm going to pick Mohinder Suresh. Because I know how things work. You guys can pick the roles with targets on their heads, I'll survive. Because I'm a survivor. *insert cockroach here*

Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock.

and tick and tock and tick some more..
Where are ya?

FOS Zindaras

for acting like you want the game to start and then not posting when it does-
Even if you are pro-town you will no doubt come accross scum so I hope your not easily manipulated.

Is their any role that people would definitely not like me to protect tonight?

The main reason I get a scum vibe from him is the tone of his posts. Now, I will plead ignorant to his playstyle here. I will do some reasearch and see if he always plays in this manner, but it seems to me like most of his posts have this "Everyone is smarter than me don't look in this direction all you big brains can keep arguing amongst yourself don't worry about little ol me." This post is a good example of the general idea:

Right, most (if not all) people have a bigger brain then me in this game so
Im just going to try and help were I can. If you think im not giving enough please let me know and I will get myself replaced.
Claude ( Yseer ) If I had your role I would be looking at one of these 3 people
Here I my reasons why.
Mathcam: His role is dangerous in mafia hands the longer we go on the more dangerous it becomes. Even if he is town then I would like to know who was visiting him. If he is not their when you get their, we could have our SK
Adele: I would want to know exactly which powers she is getting and why. I think it would be helpful for judging her and her targeters alignments.
Omen: Similar reasons as Mathcams

Now you properly had all these in your head anyway but I wanted to put it out their as it might put scum\SK off

Which 3 people do you think I should be looking at and why?

This brings me to

zindaras

. Either zindie needs to be replaced, or he needs to be lynched, nuff said. He can't be given a free pass just because he's adorable. I am not willing to see this game suffer because he can't/won't post.

Yvonneseer

I kind of feel the same way about. He has been actually posting, but I don't know if I can say that she is actually playing this game, as most of the posts contain fluff, and are not terribly game relevent.


People I am not willing to lynch today for any reason:
1)

Shaft.ed.

I was worried about him for a large portion of the game, because he seemed to be riding my coat tails a little, including where he answers a question for me. However, over the course of this game, I have come to believe that we're really just on the same wave-length a lot of the time. His response to the DWA and also his argumentation in his run ins with both zoneace, and people who attack him have been substantive, and honestly seem to be trying to uncover alignment. This is a textbook townie reaction to both DWA, and the game of mafia in general. One thats so townie that it even might make you suspicious (don't tell ibeasha I said that) but he really rings genuine to me, and I would put him as my strongest town read.

Oman

Now, this is a bit of a misslable, because I do not think I can say with confidense that I would never lynch oman no matter what. I don't think I'd even be confident in saying I have a town read on him. I would say instead that I do NOT have a scum read on him, and that combined with the fact that some players that I view as scummy are attacking him, despite the fact that the case against him seems...Quite weak...Well, that makes me want to think he's more likely a GG at this point of the game.

curiouskarmadog

again a bit of a missnomer. He just strikes me as town who is not particulary good at defending himself. Thats all. Call it a gut feeling.

The following people I am having a bit of a problem getting a read on. I will look forward to interactions/their own lists later on in order to get a better handle on them. of this list the strongest scum possibility is mathcam. I would note that I find mathcams refusal to post a list, and catagorization of my request as a "demand" to be disturbing. For the record, here's how I phrased my question:

I think we need to get down to lynching someone for today. I will post the people I am willing to lynch, and why, and the people I am not willing to lynch, and why, later today. I suggest everyone else do the same, or, if you're like zoneace, do the same for NL.

That's pretty far from a demand. I feel like he may be trying to represent me s demanding something which is outragious and difficult, so that he can get off doing it, but that's really the only point I have against him. The stronges town tells have been coming from Gorgon, as he seems to be able to agree with who he's attacking when they make a good point. Example here:

I kinda agree with ZA here. He makes a good point. There's plenty of info out there already that can be applied tomorrow, in addition to the results of night actions.

(note, he had been attacking ZA pretty heavily here, and was voting him.)

That being said, I do not feel safe in saying I lean town or scum on any of the following, and therefore will call me reads on them neutral.
Adele
mathcam
curiouskarmadog
Gorgon

Lastly I have a question for zoneace. You seem very quick to catagorize the DWA as "crap" and a "waste of time" and "TSQ being a twat" But you don't address the actual logic of it. I would appreciate if you would go through the logic I presented in the argument, and tell me where you think the flaws are. That way, we can have a more relevant discussion of the tell. Right now, it just boils down to you saying "It's crap" and me saying "No it isn't." So if you could give me some kind of conceptualization of WHY it's crap, so I could argue against that, I would appreciate it.

[Thestatusquo]

Actually, I explained it quite clearly. The scumtell is not that you called the second point bullshit. Any good player should and would do that. The point of DWA is that it's a shitty argument nestled between two really well reasoned one. The logical premise is that the player who is looking to discover alignment, and is arguing in earnest will respond to ALL of the points, including calling bullshit. The player who is not doing that. The scum player who is looking to "win" an argument to look good, is going to go for ONLY the DWA. Thats what you did, you went ONLY for the DWA, and didn't even touch on the other points that were raised in the post. (They were even numbered for you.)

The placement of the BS point wasn't an accident either. It was right in the middle. That means you had to read the first point, deduce that you couldn't put me down because of it, and THEN read the second point, see that you could use it to make me look bad, and then post.

The tell functions not because of what you attacked, but rather because of what you didn't even mention.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, the hunch thing. No there isn't. In fact, there is even less reason to withhold a hunch, because a hunch has absolutely no ability to be detrimental to the town if revealed.

[Thestatusquo]

The fact that you can think of responses now doesn't matter. In fact, it re-enforces the tell, even, because it proves the other arguments had substantive responses to them, which you ignored to go for the slam dunk.

[Thestatusquo]

no they didnt
i jsut told you they didnt have substantive responses. There is no response to 1 cause you're dead set in your defense of liars plan. For some reason you think lying is the key to the town winning.

and the third. i bad an incorrect assumption about your ability to see the difference between a hunch and real, fact based assumptions.

so your scumtell jsut gets weaker and weaker by the minute, but go on believing you've caught the scum if thats really what makes you feel better.

Now, my argument is pretty clearly not against lynching liars. My argument is that lying has possible pro town use, and that when we catch someone in a lie, we should evaluate if that lie was helpful to the town or not, and if it was, we let it be, and if it was not, we lynch the fucker. I back this up with an example of a situation where it might be advantageos for a player to lie, as a means of combatting the LAL meta in general.

[Thestatusquo]

Just continue to argue against those pesky straw men, there, buddy.

[Thestatusquo]

I really don't see how I am "holding a grudge" Zoneace is my top choice, but I feel like I have given several reasons which are completely game related, and I would be willing to lynch almost ANYONE for, if they did the same thing. It's a strong case, it's not at all OOG.

In addition to that...I don't think anyone can say I have been focusing on zoneace to the exclusion of others. I give a very detailed run down of all the other players in the game, including two more top suspects (one of which has been attacking zoneace.)

I think to say that I am holding a grudge and attacking ZA for OOG reasons is disingenuous at best.

[Thestatusquo]

Shea is my real name.

I am disappointed that DAS has quit, there was a lot of information (present and for future games) that could be found in shea's and ZA's tiff. BTW, if you cant deal with sarcasm in the world, I have a feeling you will be taking your ball and going home frequently in life. This entire site is chalked full of sarcasm and grudges...what makes a true mafia player is seeing through it and doing something with it. I would be a hypocrite if I said that shit on this site hasnt seriously pissed me off, but instead of walking away to a commitment, I just step back and take it for what it is...a game and continue on..

I kind of see his point. I have been close to quitting this game several times, because to me a lot of the way my actions have been construed means that playing is difficult. Case in point, I legitimately find Zoneace scummy, and I keep getting catagorized as insulting him and "holding a grudge." it is REALLY really frustrating, and I have been tempted several times to just let someone deal with it. I'm making a note to never play with ZA ever again, as I don't want to be in a game where I cant play, but I've decided to "keep on trucking" as it is in this game. I will settle for a ZA, or a Jdodge lynch. (possibly a zindaras one:

Mod, Can we have zindaras replaced as well

) even though ZA is by FAR my biggest suspicion. I can't understand why he hasn't been lynched yet, to be frank. Well, I guess I can. It's a combination of people giving him a free pass based on his role, and also people thinking my case is weaker than it because they think I am attacking out of some sort of grudge.

CKD, you seem to be skirting the main issue here: Who do you want to lynch, and why?

[Thestatusquo]

All toll I'd rank ZA slightly above Oman in scuminess. And I know this is going to annoy CKD, but I'm not moving my vote because I don't think the transgressions are enough to override the major discrepancy in role value for the town.

I respect this for now, but I would warn that this kind of thinking has the potential to be dangerous to the town. There is the tendency to believe people because their role is helpful in a game of mafia, but since this game functions differently than most mafia games insofar as players can have roles that only help the town can be scum. This makes giving anyone a free pass "problematic." My question to you is what do you do if ZA, or the leaving DAS is scum? What is the point where you are willing to vote them? If all our scum are in roles that are only helpful to the town, are you willing to continue to trade of potentially dangerous townie players indefinitely? Does the fact that you could be giving all three scum a free pass d1 worry you?

[Thestatusquo]

Well, frankly: Yeah. I do not see why it is not in every town players interests to post who they would be willing to lynch today and who they are not willing to lynch today and why. It's not an unreasonable request, and it's certainly one that will help the town down the road when we get more information from deaths. I see your refusal to do it as...Not only strange, but decidedly anti-town.

Would you like to comment on my analysis post of the players in the game?

[Thestatusquo]

And funny that my request suddenly becomes a "demand to list every player in the game." You'll notice even I didn't do that. Instead, I took the players that I didn't have a read on either way, and looked for the most scummy action among them, and the most townie action among them. But I believe I just flat out admitted I didn't have much of a read on about 4-5 players.

[Thestatusquo]

Bear in mind the season, which will affect response times.

Summer?

Oh you silly Aussie, you.

[Thestatusquo]

fos:Oman

[Thestatusquo]

ugh..Oman. Why do you have to make thinking you're town so hard?

[Thestatusquo]

I'm willing to lynch ZA or Jdodge. I might be convinced on Oman, but I still have that slight town read on him.

[Thestatusquo]

Adele, if you want me to vote for oman you're going to have to actually convince me. I don't really see him as tremendously scummy. Is there something I'm missing?

[Thestatusquo]

Well, if you're lynching for the position "I'll lie when I feel it better helps my win condition" then you're going to have to lynch me and mathcam at well, at LEAST. In addition, that was a cop out answer, because the "on top of everything else" is what I was asking for, and you just brushed it off as if it were already established.

[Thestatusquo]

Vote:Jdodge

Incidentally can we have him prodded, Seol?

[Thestatusquo]

I was pretty sure I was the first vote on him.... >.>

[Thestatusquo]

TBH, I think there's a pretty decent chance that are scum are in the group of people who continually "completely forget about this game." then promise more content, and never give it. I'm looking hard at Jdodge and yavonseer right now.

[Thestatusquo]

Um, Oman, no offense, but right now if I were you I'd be more concerned with making it to tomorrow than what you're going to a) Do tonight and b) Tell the town tomorrow.

[Thestatusquo]

Oman...I meant lynched.

[Thestatusquo]

fos Cicero

I don't like how you claim to have a town read on Oman, say you are conflicted, and then proceed to put him at l-1 with no apparent qualms. That's outrageous to me.

[Thestatusquo]

My computer as a cracked screen, I will still not be party to an oman lynch, lets get to night, folks.

[Thestatusquo]

Is this painful day over yet?

[Thestatusquo]

So we get rid of ZA and then have to deal with DGB? Ugh...I hate this game so much.

Also, I have no problem going first. I didn't target anyone last night.

[Thestatusquo]

Yvonne, believe me, there is a reason you'd be more likely to be sylar. THink about it, and you'll get it.

[Thestatusquo]

Its something to do with your role, and the number of kills last night.

[Thestatusquo]

No, the point is that the no kill last night might necessitate that it was someone with a power too protown not to use it n1.

[Thestatusquo]

Ah, I missed that. Never mind then.

[Thestatusquo]

Someone want to run by me why Gorgon is 50/50 the SK again? Or rather, for the first time because I don't think I've seen it done.

DGB, this is why I hate playing with you. You're the definition of dislogic. People have made the argument of a weighting system to balance scumminess with roles, and while I personally disagree with I some merit to it. But making the argument that someone is SCUM or not simply based on their role is completely wrong. Like, I can't even begin to think of a justification for it.

[Thestatusquo]

mod, can you replace DGB, please?

[Thestatusquo]

My eyes.

Vote: Gorgon

I'll buy it.

[Thestatusquo]

DGB adds a delicious amount of wifom to her list of stupid game posts, in addition, she fails to realize that the scum went for an investigative role, which is a better role than a doctor anyway

[Thestatusquo]

Except I'm not attacking DGB, Gorgon, I am voting YOU, which severely undermines the effectiveness of that point.

[Thestatusquo]

How am I not giving this game my full attention? Did I not post a fucking novel bigger than all your posts combined at the end of yesterday? I'm curious, does anyone else think that I am not giving this game my full attention?

[Thestatusquo]

NO, I was referring to the one where I listed every single player in the game and what I felt about them. it's post 85 in view all. are you reading this game at all?

[Thestatusquo]

DGB, The reason people are not trying to find alternative explanations is that there ARE no alternative explanations. Well...One, but it's not very likely. Either Gorgon is syler, or he was sylers target last night. Thats it. The only other possible explanation with this setup is that the SK chose not to kill, and that just makes no sense to me.

Secondly, analyzing voting patterns is a stupid way to find scum, at least the way you do it. I have never once seen it work. Although, I will agree that not having a starting point for tomorrow is troubling, I would say that yavoneseer provides that starting point, and even if she didn't, we'd have a whole day tomorrow to discuss it. I think it's time to get this day to night.

[Thestatusquo]

It actually has nothing to do with the character...It only has to do with the role. The only thing that can stop a SK kill in this setup is the jailing. Thats in the mechanics of this game. Therefore, since there was no SK kill last night leaves two possibilities, either Gorgon is the SK, and was prevented by being jailed last night, or he is not, and the SK tried to kill him last night. This gives him a 50-50% chance of being the SK.

The only other possibility is the SK no killing. And I don't see a reason they would do that.

[Thestatusquo]

I just successfully explained something to DGB? Has that ever been done before?

[Thestatusquo]

Vote: Adele

Explain yourself, scum!

[Thestatusquo]

I do not see any compelling reason why fonz should claim protections.

[Thestatusquo]

Adele, where arrrreeee you?