Mini 536: Heroes Smalltown. Game Over!

[shaft.ed]

I just want to point that you get mad at Za and everyone else that doesnt answer

your[/i
questions but you have yet to answer the question yourself in the alotted time you gave.

Good point, I'd like to see TSQ comment on his own inquisition.


And DAS the english is fine, I'm not doing much of anything over the Holidays so I've got a decent amount of free time.

[curiouskarmadog]

"CKD: Attacking anyone that suggests we not lynch useful power roles." Really is that what I am doing or am I against people making choices for me?

going to address this or ignore it?

I think I cleary addressed this in my run down of your play.

Seems he doesn't like any "rule" like behavior that restricts play.
...
definitely doesn't like absolutes.

am I attacking them because they are suggesting we not lynch powerful roles, or because I dont think anyone should get a pass due to roles and dont like being told what to do with my vote or my "power"?..There is a difference here...I feel like you might be misrepresenting my motivations.

[Thestatusquo]

I think we need to get down to lynching someone for today. I will post the people I am willing to lynch, and why, and the people I am not willing to lynch, and why, later today. I suggest everyone else do the same, or, if you're like zoneace, do the same for NL.

Right I will answer this when I have time tomorrow. I just want to point that you get mad at Za and everyone else that doesnt answer

your[/i
questions but you have yet to answer the question yourself in the alotted time you gave.
How you guys find sooo much time for mafia this time of year is amazing. I salute you ..

Shafted: Sorry about the shite english: I always ask poeple to replace me if it gets to confusing...its a long story..Not my native tounge but lived here for years. Worked as a chef and never really needed to write english, unless it was in an email.

I'm sorry, I was drunk last night. I thought it would probably not be the best time to post in the game. I'll do it tonight after I get off work.

[Adele]

Adele:

Not posting a whole lot and seems very reluctant to take a side on issues. Most posts seem to be "I see both sides of this." While not a scum tell, the lack of any meaningful attacks seems troubling.

Oh, no. I'm not that person, am I?

Tell you what, give me a couple of issues, and I'll pick a side for each.

I'm not happy about the responses (and lack therof) to my "no lying" suggestion. If people are clear from the start that lying = dying, then there shouldn't be any badness of the sort brought up by Gorgon. At the end of the day, there's no "true" cops here - the greatest use of these roles is in catching people in lies. I just

really

want to avoid a scenario I've seen before - of a person giving BS after BS after BS and people taking his most recent lie as the truth. More to the point, I'm concerned about good-player-scum contradicting bad-player-town safe in the knowledge that, given a pick between the two of them, people will side with the clever one even though he's the one who lied.

The scum might

have

to lie to save their asses at some point. The town don't.

And finally, if people won't sign up to the lynch-all-liars meta, then I'm not willing to bind myself any further. It's so pissing me off that this, the ultimate scumtell, is ignored by so many. Call this game the rubicon. Hey, if no-one considers lying scummy, then I'm done with the truth.

[Thestatusquo]

So you're saying you're done playing towards your win condition, and you're just going lie for the hell of it like a petulant child who didn't get her way? If thats the case then we need to lynch you right away. Lying is one thing, it has a pro town use. blatantly saying "I am no longer telling the truth because you're all not going to lynch liars" is decidedly anti town, and I'm willing to lynch you for it right here and now.

Vote: Adele

[Adele]

What? No, i'm saying if no-one else on this site feels bound by the LAL meta, then my studious avoidance of

ever

lying as town is harmful for the town side at times and I'm not going to hold myself to it any longer.

I'm not gonna lie left right and centre - I'm saying I'd want to be judged on the same scale as everyone else.

[Adele]

But, y'know, feel free to put the worst possible spin on what I said.

[ZONEACE]

So you're saying you're done playing towards your win condition, and you're just going lie for the hell of it like a petulant child who didn't get her way? If thats the case then we need to lynch you right away. Lying is one thing, it has a pro town use. blatantly saying "I am no longer telling the truth because you're all not going to lynch liars" is decidedly anti town, and I'm willing to lynch you for it right here and now.

Vote: Adele

oy, grow up, she has a good point. If we don't go with Lynch All Liars, then who the fuck are we going to lynch? cause honesty is sort of key to us winning here.

[shaft.ed]

am I attacking them because they are suggesting we not lynch powerful roles, or because I dont think anyone should get a pass due to roles and dont like being told what to do with my vote or my "power"?..There is a difference here...I feel like you might be misrepresenting my motivations.

First you're conflating two points. I've never told you what you can and can't do with your vote. I've made a case that I believe to be valid in which it is to the town's best interest to not lynch roles that are only useful to the town based on limited D1 information. ZONEACE doesn't agree with this, but hasn't stated "he is being told" what to do. Why are you taking such a viewpoint? And when have I ever told you what to do with your power?

Second, I think you are splitting hairs here. My stance is I don't want pro-town power roles to by considered for lynch today unless under very extreme circumstances. You have attacked this stance, when taken by Mathcam(his was an inverse approach not sure if he entirely agrees with my position or not) and myself, because it gives me a way to limit my lynch candidates that is independent of game play. How then is this statement inaccurate:

CKD: Attacking anyone that suggests we not lynch useful power roles.

If I had said: CKD wants to lynch useful power roles, that would be a misrepresentation of your statement.

[shaft.ed]

I agree with Adele and ZONEACE. I will be a part of your Coalition of the Willing as long as you don't invade other countries against the will of the global community under false pretenses.

[Thestatusquo]

What? No, i'm saying if no-one else on this site feels bound by the LAL meta, then my studious avoidance of

ever

lying as town is harmful for the town side at times and I'm not going to hold myself to it any longer.

I'm not gonna lie left right and centre - I'm saying I'd want to be judged on the same scale as everyone else.

Well, you sure as hell sounded like thats what you were saying. As long as you're still playing to your win condition I have no problem with you lying. The way you worded it made me think that you were so fed up with us not adopting LAL that you were going to just lie to punish us, and that is something I can not allow in this game. If this is all a huge misunderstanding, then I apologize. Just, please reassure me you plan on playing towards your win condition in this game, and I will unvote.

[ZONEACE]

i think we need to worry about the people not willing to lynch liars, cause they're either not playing to their win condition or their playing to a non-town win condition, either way, we should get rid of them.

[Thestatusquo]

i think we need to worry about the people not willing to lynch liars, cause they're either not playing to their win condition or their playing to a non-town win condition, either way, we should get rid of them.

See, this is why I hate having this discussion. I can think of literally hundreds of reasons a pro town player would lie. I have put forward this view in tons of threads before this game even began. If you'd like to lynch me for it, then fine.

The point is a much more sound strategy is to treat a lie like any other in game action. Does the lie accomplish a town goal, or does it accomplish a anti town goal. If I claim vanilla when I am actually a cop to avoid getting NKed so that I can get to more investigation results, does that mean I'm "not playing to my win condition...Or to an anti-town win condition?" No, of course not. It means I'm playing the game smart. There are plenty of times when lying is anti town, and in those situations it should be a reason to lynch, but to say that any lie is inherently anti town is foolish.

[shaft.ed]

i think we need to worry about the people not willing to lynch liars, cause they're either not playing to their win condition or their playing to a non-town win condition, either way, we should get rid of them.

See, this is why I hate having this discussion. I can think of literally hundreds of reasons a pro town player would lie. I have put forward this view in tons of threads before this game even began. If you'd like to lynch me for it, then fine.

I think that the number of situations where town should lie is astronomically smaller than the number of situations where scum should lie. Thus giving serious weight to people caught in a lie is not in the town's interest.

The point is a much more sound strategy is to treat a lie like any other in game action. Does the lie accomplish a town goal, or does it accomplish a anti town goal. If I claim vanilla when I am actually a cop to avoid getting NKed so that I can get to more investigation results, does that mean I'm "not playing to my win condition...Or to an anti-town win condition?" No, of course not. It means I'm playing the game smart. There are plenty of times when lying is anti town, and in those situations it should be a reason to lynch, but to say that any lie is inherently anti town is foolish.

Well your example fails abysmally in this game since we know everyone's role. I obviously don't want you providing incredibly specific examples for this game, but I really don't see any major benefits of townies lying. I can see them wanting to keep Night Actions to themselves in some instances, but completely fabricating them is a much bigger stretch.

[Thestatusquo]

My point was not to claim that people should lie in this game, but rather that I will not rule out the possibility that there is a legitimate reason for town to lie in this game. I refuse to ever take on a standard which dictates that I lynch a person EVERY time they do X, because I firmly believe there is no such thing as universality in this game. If someone gets caught in a lie in this game, I will evaluate it when it happens, through the lens of "Is this a pro town, or an anti town action."

Anything else, I believe, is a cop out, and is not sound town play.

[ZONEACE]

. If I claim vanilla when I am actually a cop to avoid getting NKed so that I can get to more investigation results,

Umm did you forget the part of the game where we already know YOU'RE THE ONLY VANILLA IN THE GAME???? In this game lying about your role is pointless, because we friggin know everyone's already. In a normal game, yes a cop claiming vanilla to avoid NK is a viable option, but in a game like this, give me a good reason why i shouldn't lynch someone caught lying?????


I dare you shea. come on. Why are you SO averse to lynching liars. you planning on lying to us later? want to set up your defense now?

[ZONEACE]

Anything else, I believe, is a cop out, and is not sound town play.

and how is lying a sound town play??? honestly, in this set up its not. We know the roles, we know what they do, and we know who has them. What else is there?? If someone lies about who they targeted or the result they got, then we should lynch them because they are witholding inportant or falsifying true information from the town, and that is strictly ANTI TOWN

[shaft.ed]

I dare you shea. come on. Why are you SO averse to lynching liars. you planning on lying to us later? want to set up your defense now?

Actually ZONEACE the reason that what he's saying isn't all that scummy is that he really can't lie. What's he gonna say if he gets caught targeting someone? "I was delivering the vanilla wafers."

[Thestatusquo]

Zoneace, my example was pretty clearly not directly related to this game. You would know that, if you were at all reading my responses for any reason other than to try to find inconsistancies to ridicule me on. Pretty damn opportunistic.

[ZONEACE]

SO he's setting up a defense for his scum buddy then shaft. honestly what he's saying is shite. plain and simple. His reasoning is bogus.

[ZONEACE]

Zoneace, my example was pretty clearly not directly related to this game. You would know that, if you were at all reading my responses for any reason other than to try to find inconsistancies to ridicule me on. Pretty damn opportunistic.

WHATS THE POINT OF ARGUING AN EXAMPLE FOR A GAME THAT ISNT THIS ONE AND DOESNT HAVE THE SAME SET UP AS THIS ONE.


you're just wasting all of our time and energy at that shea. Stick to the game at hand. It will be infinitely more useful

[Thestatusquo]

Anything else, I believe, is a cop out, and is not sound town play.

and how is lying a sound town play??? honestly, in this set up its not. We know the roles, we know what they do, and we know who has them. What else is there?? If someone lies about who they targeted or the result they got, then we should lynch them because they are witholding inportant or falsifying true information from the town, and that is strictly ANTI TOWN

1) That is not at all my point. What I was saying was that I REFUSE to rule out the possibility that there is a legitimate reasons someone might not lie. I am not the be all, end all of intellect, and neither are you. Therefore, I feel it is reasonable for me to expect that there are scenarios within any given game which can occur than I wouldn't expect to occur. As such, I will look at a specific lie, and determine if that lie was anti town or pro town, just like any other in game action, and I will decide whether or not to lynch on that fact, and that fact alone. I really don't see what is so unreasonable about that.

2) I am not going to lie, but if I did, I would think that it would be viewed as pro town because I don't really have any anti town things to lie about.

3)

we should lynch them because they are witholding...information

I find this statement PARTICULARLY interesting, considering it is EXACTLY what I was attacking you for earlier in the game. I agree. If someone is witholding information for no particular reason, we should lynch them for it. If, however, they have a reason which they feel the need to with hold it for, and that reason is in the towns interest, then we should not. I will say this clearly, and I will say it again. You better have some damn good reason for why you're withholding what you "saw" earlier in the game. And if you were just lying to get me off your back, then I see that as DIRECTLY undermining discussion, and I will consider it very anti town indeed.

[ZONEACE]

2) I am not going to lie, but if I did, I would think that it would be viewed as pro town because I don't really have any anti town things to lie about.

Wow, that makes sense. Yeah cause you being mafia would not give you any anti-town things to lie about.


god i am SOO close to voting you. your completely useless power wise and you're proving yourself useless logic wise.

[shaft.ed]

TSQ(do you prefer Shea btw?) I see your point, but if we agree as a town ahead of tiem that we will lynch anyone who lies, this makes it quite obvious that lying is clearly not a pro-town play as it will get you lynched if you are a lying townie. You're arguing whether or not lying can be a pro-town play in and of itself, we're arguing that it's in the town's best interest to set up a LAL policy. They are not the same. By setting up LAL we will cut back on a lot of confusion and we will also make it clear that scum caught fabricating Night Actions cannot talk their way out of it. I think in this set up the town has less to lose by forgoing lying then they have to gain by making it a viable town strategy. Therefore I think adopting LAL is in our best interest.

Also nice catch on the ZONEACE statement here:

we should lynch them because they are witholding...information

There is a huge difference between witholding information and fabricating it. I see plenty of examples where it is in the town's interest for night actions NOT to be made public: Investigator tarets Adele passing on power and results give nothing of interest. Or who the Doc targeted the night before. Whether or not Gorgon phased out or was kept in jail etc.

[Thestatusquo]

Ding ding ding ding.

Folks, we have a winner.

First of all,

Vote: Zoneace

And that vote will not be moved. I will explain why in the rest of this post.

You see, my last post contained one of my very favorite trap tells. In fact, it's one I actually learned from the mod of this game (I was reading WIFOMs league game, where he employed it.) It's called dwa, or deliberately weak argument.

This is the logic from which is flows: There are two ways to argue in a game of mafia. There is one which attempts to use logic, and understanding to find scum. This kind of argumentation takes reason, and uses the assumption that the other sides alignment is not determined. This is used by town players, and good scum players who are attempting to look townie. Then there is the other kind of argumentation. This is the style where the person is trying to "win the argument" To score points. This is a strategy generally used by scum because they already know alignment, and are not interested in discovering the truth, but rather in making their opponent look stupid, or bad, and making themselves look right.

DWA seeks to emphasize this fact. You'll notice the second point in my last post looks out of place. Thats done purposefully. That argument is clearly flawed, and wrong. I did that purposefully. You'll notice that the other two arguments in the post are well reasoned, logical, and probably right. The idea, is that someone using the first style of argumentation will substantively respond to the first and third arguments, as they are very game relevant, and someone interested in finding the truth would want to discuss them. Someone using the second style of argumentation would go straight for argument number two, as it is a slam dunk, can't miss, I'm going to make you look really stupid argument.

Zoneace went for the second one.

I will not be unvoting him.