Mini 539: Game over

[Ho1den]

He said they instead of he because of uncertainty of my sex, "they" refers to either.

I don't like the unneccessary defense of MafiaSSK.

Unvote
Vote Xtoxm

[Justin Playfair]

Well, I won't go as far as to vote MafiaSSK yet, but if we're starting to talk let me

Unvote: ythill

MafiaSSk, you say "Great. So now the votes are tied between me and Xtoxm."

I'm just a little curious here as to why you responded in this way. Because it seems by your wording that you're attempting to suggest that it's as odd/unfair that these votes have piled up on you as on Xtoxm. But these last votes you are getting are because of something you did.

Could you explain your reasoning behind placing the third vote on Xtoxm? What was suspicious if you found Xtoxm suspicious or why you chose Xtoxm to pressure if that was the case?

[Apyadg]

Just a quick newb question to get it out of the way (can't find my answer in the wiki), what do we know about the role setup? Do we know how many mafia, or what power roles are available?

[Incognito]

He said they instead of he because of uncertainty of my sex, "they" refers to either.

I don't like the unneccessary defense of MafiaSSK.

Unvote
Vote Xtoxm

Ho1den, I'm not sure what you're getting at here. From what I've seen so far, MafiaSSK placed a third vote on Xtoxm, Ythill brought up an issue with MafiaSSK's grammar, and Xtoxm mentioned that he probably said "they" instead of "he" because MafiaSSK was unsure of Xtoxm's gender. MafiaSSK actually placed a vote on Xtoxm; I wouldn't consider Xtoxm's response a "defense" especially since I'd find it hard to believe that Xtoxm would defend someone who just placed a third vote on him. And since you're using this as a means of stepping away from the random phase, it seems like a crucial point. Could you please clarify?

@Apyadg: I believe that in a closed Mafia game nothing is really known about the role set-up. As the days progress and people's alignments are revealed due to deaths, the set-up should become more apparent.

[Ho1den]

My point is that he tried to explain something that he had no reason to trying to explain. Ytill brought up a question about MafiaSSK's grammar which MafiaSSK should have been able to answer on his own. The was no reason for Xtoxm to jump in and say anything. Even if I am almost certain I know why someone did somehting I want THEM to explain it so I can see their line of thinking. If by some odd chance MafiaSSK had made a slip (not likely in this case) Xtoxm gave him an easy out.
At least now there's a minor reason for the vote because there are few good reasons to jump to someone's aid at this point in the game.
I in no way think Xtoxm (god that's annoying to spell) was trying to defend MafiaSSK's vote against Xtoxm - that makes no sense.

[Ythill]

Ah, the game is afoot.

Xtomx’s gender is clearly marked under his avatar. Also, when Mafia whined about the votes being tied, he only had 2 votes to Xtoxm’s 3. Mafia has revealed himself to be less than uncannily perceptive, yet finding honest suspicions in Xtoxm’s post #12 would require amazing powers of perception. Mafia also neglected to post the easy answer to Apyadg’s question. I believe pressure is justified here.

vote: MafiaSSK

@ Mafia: This is a pressure vote, putting you at L-3. Give a satisfactory answer to Apyadg’s question and I’ll unvote immediately.

@ Xtoxm: Not a big deal in this case, but please refrain from posting speculation when I ask another player about his behavior. You will only feed him easy answers and defeat the purpose of the question. Thanks.

[Ythill]

Also, @ Justin: I appreciate you dropping the random vote on me, but please repost it in bold. Thanks.

[Xtoxm]

Ok sorry. I only did it because I thought it was so obvious and a pointless question.

[Ythill]

No problem. It wasn't exactly a game breaking question.

Really just telling you for later.

[Xtoxm]

Xtomx’s gender is clearly marked under his avatar.

Yes, but it is easily acceptable that someone does not recognise the symbol, or even that they simply did not see it.

What are you getting at with this point?

[Justin Playfair]

Ack! Sorry.

Unvote ythill

[Incognito]

I believe pressure is justified here.

vote: MafiaSSK

@ Mafia: This is a pressure vote, putting you at L-3. Give a satisfactory answer to Apyadg’s question and I’ll unvote immediately.

Ythill: Just a quick note for you since you're new. IMO, I think a pressure vote loses its ability to pressure someone when you indicate from the beginning the purpose of the vote. It would be like me pointing a gun in your face telling you "Give me the money! And no I'm not gonna shoot you but give me the money anyway!". Just point the gun in the person's face and wait for the response... the effect is lost when you let the person know you're not gonna shoot them.

[Ythill]

@ Incog: I do appreciate the advice but, in this case, I disagree. IMO, this is more like holding someone on the train tracks and saying, "I'm keeping you here until you answer the question." The train in this example is opportunistic scum and/or overzealous townies and the threat is quite real.
[/OT theory discussion]

Xtomx’s gender is clearly marked under his avatar.

What are you getting at with this point?

Didn't I make that clear in the rest of the post you quoted? Mafia missed two obvious details, but claims to have discerned your scumminess from a single benign post. It’s acceptable that he didn’t see the symbol and that he misread the vote count, but it doesn’t make sense for someone who commonly makes such mistakes to have supernatural scum-reading capabilities. I want to know why he

really

voted you.

Why do you keep jumping to his defense?

[Xtoxm]

Whether or not he knew my gender has absolutely nothing to do with that. I am not jumping to his defense. I am questiong a weak argument.

Your other point, about why he voted for me, is valid, however, unconnected. So drop the gender thing.

[Northjayhawk]

I like where my vote is currently at. "They" seemed a bit odd, but not drastically suspicious. However, feeding MafiaSSK an answer does not seem to be helpful to the town.

More than likely it was nothing, but you never know. Perhaps it really was a slip and then when questioned MafiaSSK may have said something really stupid and unbelievable, but that possibility is gone now.

[MafiaSSK]

I voted for Xtoxm truly because 2 people had already voted him. so I wanted jump on the bandwagon. xD

[Xtoxm]

I voted for Xtoxm truly because 2 people had already voted him. so I wanted jump on the bandwagon. xD

You are backtracking now. You said you found me suspicious.

[MafiaSSK]

Yes well I was lying.

[Xtoxm]

Yes well I was lying.

vote: MafiaSSK

You've given the reason for me.

[Incognito]

With regard to MafiaSSK's actions and vote, I think a bit too much weight is being placed on the random voting phase. So far we've seen reasons ranging from someone not liking Kansas, to something about an anthill, to MafiaSSK's reason of finding someone suspicious, to people choosing not to participate in the random voting phase at all. The point is if a player chooses to participate in the random voting phase it's usually common practice to provide an explanation along with the random vote and MafiaSSK did just that. Quite frankly, I'm more suspicious of the people who have chosen to provide this MafiaSSK wagon with some momentum when it's still ridiculously early in the game. It's only page 2 of the thread - unless someone practically comes out of the starting block shouting "I'm scumz!" I think it's difficult to get a good read on anyone this early.

[Justin Playfair]

MafiaSSK...this is the kind of behavior that could pick you up an awful lot of votes pretty quickly. Want to explain these responses in a little more depth?

[Nanosauromo]

Your first votecount and mine:

MafiaSSK - 5 (charter, Apyadg, ChronX, Ythill, Xtoxm)
Xtoxm - 3 (Northjayhawk, MafiaSSK, Ho1den)
Justin Playfair - 1 (Incognito)

12 alive, 7 to lynch!

[Apyadg]

With regard to MafiaSSK's actions and vote, I think a bit too much weight is being placed on the random voting phase.

Perhaps, the problem is that he gave the impression that it wasn't a "random vote".

The point is if a player chooses to participate in the random voting phase it's usually common practice to provide an explanation along with the random vote and MafiaSSK did just that.

Maybe, but the rest of the reasons were on the grounds of avatars, usernames, and so on, his seems to stand out.

Quite frankly, I'm more suspicious of the people who have chosen to provide this MafiaSSK wagon with some momentum when it's still ridiculously early in the game.

On the bright side, we've got the game going! I don't think it's a particularly good idea to lynch him based on this; he'd have to be the single worst scum player in the entire world - But his play, whether scum or town, has been awful, he's already admitted to lying to the town, and bandwagon jumping, for no reason at all, it doesn't bode well for him really.

[Ythill]

I am not jumping to his defense. I am questiong a weak argument... So drop the gender thing.

Why would I drop an argument you are openly questioning as weak? Rather than pollute the thread trying to explain it, though, I’ll just ask: did anyone else understand how Mafia’s apparent lack of perception was relevant?

With regard to MafiaSSK's actions and vote, I think a bit too much weight is being placed on the random voting phase.

QFT. But now

you’re

volunteering the easy answer. What, you hear the train coming? I hope you guys are this nice to me when I’m under the microscope. The thing is, I agree with you wholeheartedly. And now Mafia is being abstract, which is hardly a scumtell. I’d better

unvote

before someone starts claimfishing.

I certainly agree with Incog about the bandwagon suspicions. Sounds like a useful topic. I’m willing to take my turn in the hot seat if need be.

@ Charter: Still like your random vote?

[ChronX]

Some interesting info has come out of this early bandwagon:

Hol1den found a quick reason to push the bandwagon momentum back at xtoxm.

YTHill mildly chides xtoxm for answering a question directed at MafiaSSK. Yet when Incognito does something similar, YT seems to feel the heat and unvotes. I also don't understand the need to call out Charter. Awfully fast flip flop from being willing to pressure vote to L-3 to being panic stricken about your vote and others when it gets to L-2. And, some reverse psychology is attempted when he volunteers to be on the hot seat.

Incognito seems to be setting himself up as the town's voice of authority, by answering game setup questions and making lengthy statements about game theory and such. This is often a scum tactic adopted by experienced players in a game with apparent newbs; you establish yourself as the wise man and can direct votes and thought processes later. Fortunately, this will come back to bite him when the inevitable rash of replacements occur and more vets filter into the blend.