STEVEN UNIVERSE 2 - GAME OVER

[grapes]

Like holy fuck guys I know I'm an asshole but I'm not scum.

[Reasonably Rational]

Below is what Drixx said in our PT to get A50 and Fuzzy to stop tunneling one another.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Listen up ... both of you. This is fucking silly and the sort of shit that could cost us the game, despite the amount of effort to get to such a strong position. I'm going to talk to you both separately and I want you both to talk to ME until you understand why you're both logically wrong and how you're going to help us make sure that this game doesn't somehow get handed to scum.

Firstly, you both need to realize that there may be 3 scum alive. We believe it's 2 scum and that Farside is a 3rd party incompatible win condition, but it could be 3 scum. That's the worst case scenario we talked with Random about yesterday and he checked our logic. I can lay the whole thing out, but I think you should both get it with just this: as far as we understand the setup, this game began with 25 players and 9-11 slots who could never be mislynched (gems in the masonry, Steven, Mastin, Titus, another townie getting Titus' IC ability copied to them, a beach-a-palooza clear) and another that should not have been (Kraska). We also have absurd protective power (the scum have fewer nights with kills than without and we're on day 8). That should properly adjust your expectations for how big the scum team should be, and with Shadow literally scum claiming (but also previously being mod confirmed as having no abilities), there's even more reason to expect a larger scum team than would normally be considered balanced.

So first you both need to realize that what you're doing is literally what scum want you to do. So stop it.

@Fuzzy: A50 is town. The things that A50 knew and passed on to us so that we could get them to the gems and Mastin make it absurd to believe that A50 is scum. There's like three gigantic mistakes the scum team made that would have been easily avoided with the knowledge he had, most glaringly obvious of which is having Skybird in alliance with Xykfu and pushing stress to where Xykfu could kill her. A50 knew about that. In fact ... A50 as scum would mean Skybird probably would never even have BEEN in that alliance to begin with. A50 would have to be gamethrowing to be scum.

@A50: Fuzzy is almost certainly town. The whole reason we wanted to have him allied with you today was to clear him. He didn't shoot last night because WE proposed a specific plan and others decided to ignore us even though we've been consistently right and consistently game solving all game. We wanted him empowered because we wanted nothing to prevent him shooting or be able to be an excuse. Either he proves the vig shot or he has some explaining to do. Since the firebringer kill has no other posited source, we're inclined to believe that he'll shoot just fine.

Now hopefully that will get you two to back off of each other and talk to me. If you're not convinced, ask questions and we'll be as thorough as necessary.


Now ... as for the vig shot to clear yourself, Fuzzy, The person you need to be shooting tonight is Farside. I will make the case for you as thoroughly as you need. I don't recall if you played in SaGa Frontier, but at this point I would bet my left nut that Farside is a 3rd party and I would not be comfortable betting anything at all that she can win in some way that won't screw us. Again ... I'll go through it in detail if you like, but all you really have to do is look at her today like 3 or 4 times already trying to push the narrative that we had done or said something which we hadn't. She's fighting for her 3rd party wincon and she knows I'm not ever going to stop. She's caught only there's too many distractions and she's getting away with it.

I would prefer that we lynch Farside today because our ability would let us prevent her from escaping the lynch and you could simply shoot shadow who is outed scum who has also been confirmed to have no abilities. The mess of implosion going on in the main thread right now just makes me want to shake people, so instead of doing that and accomplishing nothing, we can just adjust around stupidity and get this win finished off.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What exactly is this buried treasure? The fact that we were wrong?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, you're talking about Drixx not lending the same weight to fuzzy not killing SS, and Shiro knowing about MoI's kill immunity, as I did.

*shrug*

We talked about it a bunch. We both agreed that fuzzy COULD have left SS alive specifically to take the lynch for the day, and Drixx believed Shiro was paying so little attention that he could have missed the information Titus gave us both about MoI's role.

Our degrees of certainty were notably different on these matters though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Creature - Ummm... really obvious.
TFL - This should also be obvious I think.
Shiro - Obviously skimming the game. Given that he missed us citing things Titus said and asking for him to confirm (and then bizarrely asked us to confirm something that isn't there), he's not really plugged in. That feels like demoralized scum (and could explain the MoI shot if Shiro is scum: if he missed the post outlining MoI's abilities or just skimmed it and missed the protection). It's also possible that it could just be lazy town assuming a win given our strong position.
Grapes - I am tempted to put Grapes before Shiro. There's no real reason to read him either way, except for the Historical Fiction event which indicated he was targeted night one; however, there are two glaring failure points with that being used as a clear. Firstly, the event was from TWIE and TWIE chose which submitted actions to turn into truth, so it's possible that TWIE simply lied so it would look like Grapes was targeted by the scum team as an attempt to get him "cleared". The second failure point is that DGB had the ability to re-direct the scum kill. Then there's the fact that Grapes is literally coasting along at this point on this "clear" and my "gut" is bothering me a bit. (As a note, I'm not a "gut" person as I believe "gut" is just your brain telling you something is wrong but ... you get the point).
S_S - I have a really hard time believing that the scum team were given a goon in this game. That seems absurd. Almost certainly he got stuck with the token vanilla townie slot in a role madness game. To be fair, though, that's literally the only reason to posit him as town.

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEH

Seriously? Cerberus and I have a disagreement about one slot and that's even surprising? Like ... Shiro ignored at least a half dozen requests to confirm information and then came into the thread and asked us to confirm something to defend him. That's exactly what led to what you quoted, which I wrote.

~Drixx

P-edit: ninjad

[TheFuzzylogic99]

If you want to lynch me than fine.....atleast let me get one last vig shot off tonight

if we lynch RR today I will shoot Grapes Tonight assuming that the RR lynch does not end the game
if we lynch Grapes today I will shoot RR tonight assuming we the game does not end

I think Almost /Shiro should be tomorrow lynch but if yall want to lynch me than that's fine bc I will be usesless after tonight .......as far as night action goes.

I can see how people see me as scum as I derped pretty bad this game.......thinking Sky was Connie was extremely dumb. I should of shot Shadow but listened to RR bc I thought that's what the town wanted, I made a few mistakes and if I have to be lynched for them than okay

[Reasonably Rational]

If you want to lynch me than fine.....atleast let me get one last vig shot off tonight

if we lynch RR today I will shoot Grapes Tonight assuming that the RR lynch does not end the game
if we lynch Grapes today I will shoot RR tonight assuming we the game does not end

I think Almost /Shiro should be tomorrow lynch but if yall want to lynch me than that's fine bc I will be usesless after tonight .......as far as night action goes.

I can see how people see me as scum as I derped pretty bad this game.......thinking Sky was Connie was extremely dumb. I should of shot Shadow but listened to RR bc I thought that's what the town wanted, I made a few mistakes and if I have to be lynched for them than okay

Nobody is lynching you Fuzzy, ESPECIALLY if you have another shot(which will ya know, NEGATE the concern mastin has about ending up in a 4 man mylo, and allow us to clear through all suspects).

Shiro and Random are on board with it, nobody else is, therefore you aren't getting lynched.

-Cerb

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Fuzzy – why are you talking about shooting tonight? My understanding is that ability was a single shot that was refunded on Season Finale. Based on what everyone has said about that mechanic your shot from last Night should NOT have been refunded. Am I incorrect on any of these points?

Fuzzy you really need to address this ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Grapes

- why have you not used your ability that you claimed to me in the PT on either Season Finale?

[grapes]

It's an easy decision at this point. RR claims that my VCA on them was "prepared", of course it was. I always had it in the back of my mind that the traction they received day 1 was pretty town-driven. A few more flips and me coming out of my apathy coma solidified that.

In a game where scum got lynched day 1 that should be a pretty good sign that we were on target there because you gotta think, scum probably would have wanted them to be a counterwagon to cakes.

Moving on to why their PoE in 10877 is not only a scumpost, but pretty much cements them as more likely scum than I.

The simple fact is that "there's not a goon in the game" was a thing that stuck to the wall. And to argue that the person who blew that out of the water (me) is scum over the person who essentially used that as their only reason to townread confirmed scum is absurd.

This also goes back into the flawed logic RR has been using to town-case people. We haven't really been super fluid with alliances and stuff like that. It's been lowkey, it's been around deadline, impromptu kinda stuff. We've gotten lucky in some cases. Chara saving me N1 (more than likely) Xk's skybird kill and I'm sure some others.

But using having the knowledge of those things happening is not only a mystery of just how organized the alliances tried to be from an outside perspective (me and most still alive) but also falls apart to the easy question "what would they have realistically done about it".

Any attempt for skybird or RR or any scum to mess up the plan in-thread would have given them away pretty fast after a few flips.

Questions would arise.

Why did skybird not ally with anyone that night?
Who knew about this stuff?
Etc etc.

Don't be naive.

pedit: My action doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it's a finale.

[grapes]

I don't bus.

[Reasonably Rational]

Now you're really flailing Grapes. It's not that Skybird allied to Xykfu that matters. It's that Xykfu couldn't have triggered the event ... until scum used an event to kill Yume (I believe you made a very snide nasty comment about Yume when that happened?) and raised stress, which then allowed for it to happen.

A50

knew

that information. He passed it on to us like 10 or 11 real time days before the Yume kill event happened.

But you're too intelligent to actually have misunderstood. You know we haven't viewed A50 as cleared because Skybird happened to ally with Xykfu. The fact that you cherry picked that particular alliance means you are aware of the full reasoning for the A50 clear, and you are being intellectually dishonest and trying to completely misrepresent why we view him as highly likely town.

When you have to make an intellectually dishonest argument to push someone, that

should

be a sign that you need to rethink. Of course ... you can't rethink because you know you're scum and we're not and you already decided to target us for mislynch today and it's too late to back out now.

But ... you could at least keep your dignity while making the only play you have left.

~D

P-edit: Really? You're going to wander into trust tell territory now? Wow.

[grapes]

(I believe you made a very snide nasty comment about Yume when that happened?)

I did not!

[Reasonably Rational]

(I believe you made a very snide nasty comment about Yume when that happened?)

I did not!

Sincerest apologies. My memory hasn't been so great since the concussions. For some reason, I thought you were the one who said the scum team was stupid to kill Yume and had helped town by doing so. (Although amusingly in hindsight the scum team DID help us by killing Yume as that let Xykfu take out Skybird, who had a very strong role).

The rest stands.

~Drixx

[Shiro]

Both town MoI

Fuzzy os the most Shady person around period.

Conveniently not shooting when scum couldn't kill,killed far because??? somehow has another shot when it suppodly was finale only.

The fuck is this not clicking to anyone?

[TheFuzzylogic99]

I am double checking about my shot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I am pretty sure I have one more since I get refunded at season finale
Shiro

TBF...... RR was the one who wanted to keep Shadow alive.....It was her plan I just went along with it RR and Almost both pretty much begged and pleaded with me to Kill Far bc they thought she had a wincon that could hurt the town. Hey if you want to vote for me than fine
go ahead , BTW both almost and RR have confirmed these facts, I am Watermelon Steven. Town vig

[grapes]

Okay sorry had to run out and do stuff quick.

It's not that Skybird allied to Xykfu that matters. It's that Xykfu couldn't have triggered the event ... until scum used an event to kill Yume (I believe you made a very snide nasty comment about Yume when that happened?) and raised stress, which then allowed for it to happen.

Okay why are we assuming the scum dayvig was something that they could just use whenever the fuck they felt like it?

I thought it was more of a doomsday countdown thing. I know I haven't been paying much attention at all but doesn't that make more sense considering town had to withhold actions to stop it from happening? Were we suppose to just not action at night forever to keep scum from getting a guaranteed kill?

A50

knew

that information. He passed it on to us like 10 or 11 real time days before the Yume kill event happened.

You've been on this website long enough that assuming perfect scumplay is ridiculously stupid.

A50 knew the stress requirements for Xk's alliance-kill-thing. Big deal. My point is if you or him are scum with that knowledge what would you have done about it to not implicate skybird AND yourself. (without assuming how a scum event works this time)

P-edit: Really? You're going to wander into trust tell territory now? Wow.

How is saying that I wouldn't bus my whole team a trust tell and not just common fucking sense. Holy moly.

Can we lynch this?

[Reasonably Rational]

Now you're really flailing Grapes. It's not that Skybird allied to Xykfu that matters. It's that Xykfu couldn't have triggered the event ... until scum used an event to kill Yume (I believe you made a very snide nasty comment about Yume when that happened?) and raised stress, which then allowed for it to happen.

A50

knew

that information. He passed it on to us like 10 or 11 real time days before the Yume kill event happened.

But you're too intelligent to actually have misunderstood. You know we haven't viewed A50 as cleared because Skybird happened to ally with Xykfu. The fact that you cherry picked that particular alliance means you are aware of the full reasoning for the A50 clear, and you are being intellectually dishonest and trying to completely misrepresent why we view him as highly likely town.

When you have to make an intellectually dishonest argument to push someone, that

should

be a sign that you need to rethink. Of course ... you can't rethink because you know you're scum and we're not and you already decided to target us for mislynch today and it's too late to back out now.

But ... you could at least keep your dignity while making the only play you have left.

~D

P-edit: Really? You're going to wander into trust tell territory now? Wow.

It actually goes far beyond this. I looked into this at the time and made a note of it. Skybird ASKED Xkfyu to ally her. It wasn't "close to the end of the day", there was plenty of time for other options to come up, and she could have allied with someone else, or attempted to.

Why is this important?

Because if you look at that day, guess who Xkfyu was lined up/had asked to ally with BEFORE Skybird said anything?

Twin Wings. You know, the slot S_S replaced into. In other words, scum.

So, if A50 is scum, NOT ONLY did the scum team attempt to ally with Xkfyu TWICE after learning his ENTIRE ROLE, AND THAT ALLYING WITH HIM PUT THEM AT RISK, but they PUT THE SLOT THAT HAD LESS SUSPICION AND A STRONGER ROLE AT RISK.

This isn't the actions of scum who know XK's role and powers.

This is scum attempting to use Skybirds gem checking power to see if Xk was a gem, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT KNOW HIS ROLE.

Both town MoI

Fuzzy os the most Shady person around period.

Conveniently not shooting when scum couldn't kill,killed far because??? somehow has another shot when it suppodly was finale only.

The fuck is this not clicking to anyone?

Shiro...why doesn't fuzzy just shoot A50 or myself, the people he was SUPPOSED to shoot, and avoid the extra suspicion of going after Farside in particular?

-Cerb

pedit: Lol. Thanks Fuzzy, that reminds me...something everyone who keeps PUSHING that the people who suggested a farside lynch over a S_S one are suspects seem to be missing: S_S COULD NOT SUBMIT THE KILL, AND COULD DO NOTHING ELSE.

Why would ANY scum partner put themselves out on a limb to delay his death by ONE phase? They would have gained quite literally nothing by having fuzzy shoot shadow while farside was lynched, and would have lost A GREAT DEAL because fuzzy would become conftown, and they would be suspected for defending him.

peditx2: You're confusing the event that killed Yume with the Cluster. Please see earlier in this post and you'll see a very simple implied way to handle things. Drixx mentions the trust tell thing because in a game he modded, someone used that exact argument, that they NEVER bus people. If you NEVER bus people, and have a demonstrable history that never bussing is true for you, then it IS a trust tell, because if you ever push scum it means you're town 100% of the time.

[grapes]

Both town MoI

Fuzzy os the most Shady person around period.

Conveniently not shooting when scum couldn't kill,killed far because??? somehow has another shot when it suppodly was finale only.

The fuck is this not clicking to anyone?

My understanding of fuzzy's role is that he needs to be in an alliance to shoot and that on finales it's kind of a strongman.
Never got the impression that he's x-shot but that might be because he's been saying he's gonna shoot everyday.

[grapes]

Shiro...why doesn't fuzzy just shoot A50 or myself, the people he was SUPPOSED to shoot, and avoid the extra suspicion of going after Farside in particular?

Because you were the dominant pusher of farside and if she's actually town it makes you look bad. (?)

The real question is why hasn't he shot in the lynchpools of people who aren't drunk on third party paranoia (IE the actual consensus)

[grapes]

It actually goes far beyond this. I looked into this at the time and made a note of it. Skybird ASKED Xkfyu to ally her. It wasn't "close to the end of the day", there was plenty of time for other options to come up, and she could have allied with someone else, or attempted to.

Why is this important?

Because if you look at that day, guess who Xkfyu was lined up/had asked to ally with BEFORE Skybird said anything?

Twin Wings. You know, the slot S_S replaced into. In other words, scum.

So, if A50 is scum, NOT ONLY did the scum team attempt to ally with Xkfyu TWICE after learning his ENTIRE ROLE, AND THAT ALLYING WITH HIM PUT THEM AT RISK, but they PUT THE SLOT THAT HAD LESS SUSPICION AND A STRONGER ROLE AT RISK.

This isn't the actions of scum who know XK's role and powers.

This is scum attempting to use Skybirds gem checking power to see if Xk was a gem, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT KNOW HIS ROLE.

Haven't fact checked this but let it be known I was talking more ~in general~ about alliances.

I mean you're still assuming optimal scumplay for some reason. You're also assuming that a50 as scum would put 2 and 2 together in time. You're also assuming that there were a whole shitton of other options as per alliances.

What day did all this go down because if there wasn't a lot of people all locked in you might be on to something.


Actually, looking at sky's role right now, isn't the fact that there was an attempt for scum to change things around more fishy considering that skybird's role made her immune to all actions when allied?

[grapes]

Think I cracked the case guys.

[mastin2]

First things first: Varsoon PM'd me with the result of "No Action Submitted".
Now I do have a feeling I was redirected, because this result in particular did not explicitly mention my target's name. I had previously been told McMenno/Creature results with their names intact within he investigation result PM.
However, I have no proof of such redirection other than that.

Or, here's a thought.
Just a thought.

Your result is exactly what happened because it's...exactly what happened.

RR is NOT the only one responsible for the NK on farside.

You being guilty of the same crime does not lessen the fact that it was in fact a crime--why do you think so much desire to lynch you exists in the first place?

Exactly. It's because yes you ARE as guilty as they are.

The difference is...you pull this shit as town and have a known record of doing so.

I have gone to GREAT lengths to describe exactly why RR doing so runs contrary to their record as town and is consistent with their record as scum.
Namely, this is Reasonably Rational gamesolving as town.
Skip to the last page of the iso if you'd like.
This is Reasonably Rational "gamesolving" as scum. There's only the one page so not much of a read.

Now tell me, which of the two resembles what RR is doing this game?

Now why would Scum!RR prevent the NK on farside earlier is also a question I have to propose. The faster they got rid of Townies the closer they got to their win, so why prevent such a kill on her earlier?

You'll have to remind me of this occurrence as this runs contrary to my memory banks of what RR's done the entire game.

The rest of your logic seems resident on an idea I'm not comprehending, that of farside dieing by a means other than what did happen.

Either that or they would not have had TFL allying with me to begin with, and would have not shot someone themselves either, thus keeping myself, TFL, farside AND rapes as possible mislynches.

Did you miss the part where

farside was confirmed town

and

completely immune to the scum nightkill

? Because. Um. Yeah. Farside was confirmed town. And immune to the scum nightkill. So RR as scum lets farside live...why?

Explain that to me. Why would a scum RR let farside live?
Why would a town RR advocate for farside's death?

What -on Earth- was TWIE thinking when/if he confirmed his own scum buddy took a shot at grapes (thus proving Sky to be a killer)?? Explain THAT please.

You need a serious fucking grip on the game if you don't remember basic chronology. By the time TWIE used his ability,

Skybird was already dead

. As a result, either Skybird self-submitted her action POSTMORTEM...
...Or TWIE told the truth about his use. And, as I say below: timing is important. He was not known scum when he used his power.

I don't see why SCUM would correct a SCUM action to prove their target to be TOWN.

This is really, really fucking obvious.
We know that Skybird either submitted the action postmortem and lied...
...Or that TWIE told the truth. (Because of the wording on TWIE's ability, he could not have fabricated a result.)
Aside from that! Assume Skybird really DID submit a postmortem result which was fabricated.
TWIE was not known to be confscum when he used this ability. It so happened I had a guilty result on him, but the thread was locked at the time he used the ability--rather blatantly, he used it in an attempt to gain town credit.

What would that ability's gain be for the scum? Virtually none.
What would that ability's gain be for the town? Huge.
So TWIE using it, and using it truthfully, was an attempt to gain towncred.

You think this strange?

Name a scum player this game who didn't attempt to use a claim ability for towncred.
SirCakez claimed an ability and tried to use it for towncred.
Skybird never claimed abilities and thus never used it for towncred.
TWIE claimed an ability and tried to use it for towncred.
Shadow_step was DEFINED by claiming his ability and trying to use it for towncred. That was the whole fucking point of him using his ability.
DGB's the closest you'll get to that, and even there, she was a traitor, who used her power to prove she had it and almost never again, a move which...is usually done...for towncred.

Yeah.
TWIE didn't lie.

Ergo, grapes was the scum's nightkill.
Ergo, grapes is not fucking scum.
And if you're not scum.
And if Fuzzy isn't scum.

Here's a joke for you:
Knock, knock.
"Who's there?"
Scummer.
"Scummer who?"
...Exactly!

[mastin2]

Mastin. You realize that if we were scum we had access to the same empowered shot that Fuzzy had access to, right?

One, I sincerely doubt that--factional abilities are rarely if ever empowered by other abilities, especially in Varsoon games. He'll power the fuck out of, say, a strongman because a strongman is a personal power even if said personal power is used in application on a factional power (that being, the scum's nightkill), but he won't actually power the factional ability up.

Two. Even IF this is wrong. Even IF he did--so? My point doesn't change. Having Fuzzy do your dirty work for you keeps your hands clean...ESPECIALLY with a townbeard in the form of Almost50 backing you up. If Fuzzy does the nightkill, and no factional kill is shown, then Fuzzy remains unclear. If Fuzzy does the nightkill, and a factional kill happened, Fuzzy would be cleared. Meaning, the points I am making don't fucking change at all:
You still created a situation where Fuzzy would not be clear.
You still created a gamestate where farside would be removed from the game allowing the possibility of a scum win.
You still attempted to not get your hands dirty.
You still attempted to avert your own demise.

That you are attempting to say that my arguments which were entirely unrelated to this point fall apart because of it is LAUGHABLE. My points hold even if I'm wrong. Even if you had the power as scum to kill farside thanks to Almost50, that still fucking means you were creating a gamestate where farside would be eliminated.

Also, I just thought of a far simpler reason Fuzzy needed to do the kill.
farside was immune to the scum's nightkill.
Assume Almost50 DID grant factional kills the power to puncture through.
Well guess what farside suddenly dieing does for you, RR.

It confirms you have the fucking factional kill, ergo, making you confscum.

You're not that stupid as scum.
So stop trying to argue you would be.

Fuzzy was a NECESSARY patsy to remove farside because the scum absolutely could not remove her by any other means.
And by LORD you did try those other means. Lynch. Multiple times. Triggering her third party wincon. At least two or three times. All failed. So you resorted to manipulating an easily-manipulated player into making the ONE SHOT which would allow for a gamestate scum can win in.

what in this game setup that you have seen so far makes it balanced? How do the scum handle the very large amount of slots that will never be lynched going by the assumptions we have used this game?

I handle it by assuming scum are kill-heavy as they are proven to be.
I handle it by assuming scum have powers which are meant to false-confirm themselves as town so they are integrated into the townbloc, as has been proven to see.
I handle it by assuming the third parties are not treated purely as town.
I handle it by assuming even if the third parties ARE being played purely as town, that players both town and scum will ASSUME they are not town and handle it appropriately--mislynching a crystal gem for instance. Which we have been seeing the whole fucking game, especially on farside but certainly not limited to exclusively her.
I handle it by assuming that the scum have reasonable ways of deterring the conftown from claiming. As has been shown in the game, and which V explicitly warned about in the beginning.
I handle it by assuming that the scum's fake roles are going to just be town roles that are scum aligned. As has been shown in the game.

I handle it exactly as I have been: by looking at what I have at hand and making the obvious fucking conclusions from it.

The obvious fucking conclusions from it show the scum having exactly what they have, and the town having exactly what they have, and third parties having exactly what they have, because not only have they had it, but it makes SENSE for them to have had it:
The crystal gems focus largely on protection, a necessity to keep themselves alive. The scumteam focuses largely on killing. A necessity to puncture through the protection. The town does not have much in the way of investigatives--most of their power stems entirely from abilities which deal with other factors, like confirmation. Yet the scum were given those same exact abilities, as to not stand out from the crowd. Simple, and balanced. What we have seen, and what is reasonable to conclude.

Now tell me:
Why in the everloving fuck is that NOT your conclusion?!?

Because a town!RR would not be this incompetent about the fucking setup.

1.) Our initial concern about Farside was that she would take her win on M/LYLO and hand scum a win.

Yeah that's not what you said so stop fucking pretending it was.

You multiple times warned of a THIRD PARTY ENDGAME happening. You MULTIPLE TIMES told us, "farside's role will allow her to endgame everyone alive by allowing her to reach the points needed". This was the appeal to fear you were using.

Not once. Not ONCE. Did you use "in mylo she'll achieve her win and scum will endgame". Which is still an appeal to fear by the way. Just not the one you were employing. Inconsistency, and still doesn't change the original problem even if not.

The list of things scum walked into that we knew about is so long that positing a scum!us requires you to be claiming that we deliberately played against wincon numerous times.

OR.
Here's a simpler answer.
I don't know all the facts of what mechanics were in play.
And the scumteam certainly hasn't.
Even with you as scum, that fact remains true. You are good at setup spec. You were privy to many of the mechanics in play. You knew much of how the game would work. But you are not omniscient. There are gaps even in your knowledge. There are assumptions you could have made that were proven false. Or perhaps you made correct assumptions, but misapplied the timing behind them such that they were incorrect.

The simple fact of the matter is. You can be fully playing to your wincon, and then make a move which was with the benefit of hindsight a mistake. And then later you try to make lemonade out of lemons, by covering it up: by claiming that omniscience hindsight of, "if we were scum we wouldn't have made this mistake".

But you do make mistakes in your scumgame.
You made plenty in SC's game, even though you were still largely playing to the best of your known optimal knowledge. And then you did the exact same fucking thing you are doing this game. You said, "Well we wouldn't have made those mistakes if we were scum!" Yet you did. You're both human. You're less inclined to make a mechanical error than the average player. You are not immune to it altogether.

No scumteam which can be pressed will provide a perfect answer--absolutely none of them.
Not you.
Not grapes.
Not Almost50.
Not Fuzzy.

There is no picture which has every possible detail accurate. Even in postgame! Even after all is said and done! Even when I have access to every game PT! I still won't fully understand what happened at some points in the game! I still won't have a full grasp of the details which went into each and every action. Because in a game this complex, there will never be a simple, easy answer.

But of the difficult ones.

The simplest and easiest one, by FAR, is that you are scum. I cannot answer every question. But I can answer most. And that's FAR fucking more than can be said of those pushing grapes, yourself included.

I have asked what makes grapes scum.
Silence.
I have pointed out why grapes is town.
Not quite silence there, but pretty damn close to it.

I have asked for why you are town.
You've given misdirection and misreps for the majority of your answers, not actually answering the question.
I have pointed out why you are scum.
And you point out the few weaknesses in my argument and take it as dismantling the whole of the argument when no it fucking doesn't, the vast majority remains uncountered.

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

I'm not the setup/mod genius you are, but I know enough to know that the amount of slots who could never be mislynched in this game is too high for there to be only one scum left and that's the only threat.

It's precisely BECAUSE I am the "setup/mod genius" that I know there's only one threat left.
In a game with one explicitly-neutral third party (Xkfyu at the start), one could-be-neutral-or-town player (farside), and FOUR players who are explicitly not town (but friendly to town), you've got a pure town basis of 13 players AT MAXIMUM. At absolute maximum, thirteen pure town players. Assuming five scum plus a sixth as a traitor. And assuming all the third parties play as third parties. You've got a fucking town of thirteen at most. That number sound familiar to you?

Yeah it's because it's almost exactly the same number of pure town names I had in Gistou.
And with the crystal gems being almost exact duplicates of the undead risen slaves, you get a town+'town' of 17-19 players, which is the exact ballpark I had in Gistou.

This game is

slightly

smaller than Gistou, yes. But it still falls within the range of normal. fucking. balance.

Also, with this, I'd like to point out you are CONTINUING, time and time again, to appeal to fear. To appeal to paranoia. To appeal to any fucking thing which will allow you to leverage in an extra mislynch. Saying more than one scum allows for thoughts such as Shiro not being confirmed town, for instance. Which allows for Shiro to be mislynched, when the scum need every mislynch they can get.

The town!RR I know would never do this. You are projecting hypothetical scenarios which run contrary to known evidence and probabilities. "What if farside's third party who can endgame us?" "What if the crystal gems are a threat?" "What if farside's actually scum?" (Earlier, butstill.) "What if there's an extra scum alive?"

Instead of paying attention to known. fucking. facts. Like RR as town does.

Also!

I remember from the first game. At least one head of Reasonably Rational is

a serious Steven Universe buff

.
They hold extreme flavor knowledge, and use it for deadly accuracy.
Yet, this Reasonably Rational is ignoring the

strong fucking flavor reason

for there to only be one scum remaining.
Their flavor knowledge almost won the town the first Steven Universe game, in that Centipeedle of then was possible as a scum role and they identified Sonic's claim AS a scum role off of flavor.
Yet here, RR is running contrary to the flavor which tells them only one scum left.

This is, through and through, Reasonably Rational's scumgame.

[mastin2]

And, like.

We know so fucking many things about the game right now.
Every fucking fact about the setup says to me we have one scum remaining: Ruby (Army).
We also know that flavor fits Ruby abilities--Jasper, the traitor, is not part of the core squad. Neither knows of the other, until later.
Leggy, the youngest and rookie among the rubies, had no abilities this game, fitting.
Doc, their leader, coordinated them, and had abilities which amplified this.
Eyeball had hero worship of Jasper--and an ability which worked in synchronization with Jasper.
Navy was one of the more bland characters--and TWIE was almost a goon, having only an episode ability and a singular self-targeting ability which was effectively a self-watch/self-voyeur.
What kinds of powers do you think Army would have?

Even if you don't have a clear answer to that. Even if you do and the answer is "player who is not RR fits!".

I ask of you.
With only one scum remaining.
Who. is. it.

Not two!
No. Fuck no. There aren't two.
No second traitor bullshit.

One scum left.

Who?

Not the crystal gems.
Not Shiro, who was bubbled.
Not me.
That's half the game.

So you've got Almost50/grapes/Fuzzy/RR.

And I repeat.

What makes you think that grapes is scum?
I've asked this many times. Never gotten a clear response. It's just, "oh grapes is scum". "Oh, it's grapes because...well because?" "Grapes is scum by POE" is the closest I have to an answer. Alright. So then the question becomes:
1: Why isn't grapes town? I've pointed out just a FEW reasons. Among them? The likelihood grapes was the N1 scum kill and grapes pushing literally EVERY FUCKING SCUM to the point where your options are "grapes powerbussed the entire fucking scumteam" or "grapes is town". (Guess which I find more likely?)
2: Why are the

others

town? Namely, Reasonably Rational.

Okay. Say you don't want grapes. Even though there seems to be nobody doing that.
Same question about Fuzzy and Almost50: why would they be scum, and why would they not be town?

Now for Reasonably Rational.
I have given you time and time again the reason they are not town.
I have given you time and time again the reason they are scum.
I have asked why they would be town--to not much of a response at all. (Almost50's response? Deflect attention onto grapes without actually answering the fucking question. Reasonably Rational's response? Much the same, albeit with less direct focus towards grapes.)
I have asked why they cannot be scum--and the closest I've gotten is a response from RR of "we wouldn't be this stupid as scum!". (To which I say they wouldn't be this stupid as town, either.)

It's not. that. damn. hard.

I've weighed the options. Really, I have.
I have considered grapes as scum.
I have considered Fuzzy as scum.
I have considered Almost50 as scum.

None fit as well as Reasonably Rational does.
And yes, I've not come to this conclusion blindly. I've done isoing of myself, looking at my past points. Among them rather good analysis I did about how Shadow_step and RR were a viable scumteam--I discarded it. But I had absolutely no reason to have discarded it. My reason was, "I'm going to throw that out because I don't wanna".

So tell me.
How much of choosing to lynch grapes/not lynch RR is because you don't wanna?

If you approach the game from a viewpoint of feelings, sure. Maybe grapes feels like better for scum. I can see that. I can feel that, believe it or not.
But if you take the coldly logical, rational approach, there's one and only one reasonable candidate for being scum: RR.

[mastin2]

Except we gave reads and thoughts for how to proceed if we died every single day, and we even told Fuzzy to shoot us last night if he had any doubts, and then gave thoughts on how to proceed when he saw our flip.

Yeah the funny thing is none of these are things you don't do as scum.
In fact, rather explicitly, you RELY on them to pass as actual gamesolving to look good: you make some stuff which posits an idea, theoretically good! On paper, what you say is technically true, and remains valid. You additionally are skilled enough where you will risk some bravado by daring the town to come after you, because you hold the confidence to know that doing so is a good deterrent from them trying to. (Simple psychology: people wanting to be shot won't be, people who don't want to be shot will be. This applies to 90% of players, and Fuzzy is certainly among them and easily fooled by the simple trick.)

But when examined, it all falls apart. Your plans have done jackshit. Nothing you have proposed has worked the way you promised it would. And instead of owning up to the mistake, you have been trying to find every excuse to justify having been wrong, when the simple fact was you. were. consistently. wrong. Because the ideas which looked so good on paper would never work in reality, not with the scum having what they ended up having, and not with the town acting the way you were in the know of how they would act.