Mini 532: Yaw's Split Open Mafia: (Game over)

[kabenon007]

I'm confused... whose explanation sucked, Korlash?

[Off the Mark]

My explanations are not meant to be vague and underdeveloped, sorry about that. Just haven't had the time to adequately explain myself, and I don't have the time now either. Tomorrow I should have the time to write a decent post.

I still feel good about my vote on Thanatos, and I am getting scum vibes from SensFan too, and regretting putting him on my trust list at this point.

My problems with SensFan:

OTM has been looking very bad recently, most notably where (As mentionned) he sets up a possible excuse for a Phate mis-lynch and in post 307 where he admits that his playstyle changes based on many factors, including suspicion level. This looks to me like he wants to be able to (hopefully) come out ok of this debate, then lurk later, pointing to 307 as "proof" that he switches when he is not suspicious.

Ok point 1 was already discussed ad nauseum and he bring it up again, ignoring my explanation. Point 2 just seems like a reach to find possible scumminess. A lot of players vary up their playstyle like that, calling it a possible excuse for later lurking seems pretty odd to me.

[bird1111]

Vote Count:
Off the Mark (5): Panzerjager, Phate, Thantos, SensFan, Zhao
Zhao (1): Holy
Thantos (1): Off the Mark
Phate (1): Korlash
QuickBen (1): DrunkenPiper

Not Voting (3): kabenon007, QuickBen, Jex

With 12 alive it is 7 to lynch.

[Off the Mark]

Hmm just found something while skimming through. This is back during the early discussion, long before I brought up the same issue:

What if the scum claim unpowered? we'd be giving them all of our power roles!

I doubt scum would bother to point this out. In fact, I pointed it out a bit later (obviously forgetting Thanatos had mentioned it) and I know my intentions were to help the town. If this thought occurred to a scum player, they would keep it to themselves and then use it later. (they would claim unpowered)

Therefore, I don't think Thanatos is the best lynch today, although I have disagreed with most of his posts.

unvote

I am getting the feeling most of this chatter has been townies arguing.

These are the posts made me feel like kabenon was thinking more like a townie, mainly because I agreed with them:

Yeah, but that can dip into WIFOM for the record... but I agree that Korlash is seeming mostly townie to me.

Read what WIFOM is... He could be like, well, a townie wouldn't be able to talk to scum partners at night, so I can look town by posing my question in thread instead of waiting for the night. That IS WIFOM.

Then there was the kabenon / Korlash joking exchange on page 11. I get a "I-don't-care-what-people-think-of-me" vibe from kabenon throughout this. It's just a feeling, really, and I can't defend why it pushes him more to the townie side for me, but I do tend to rely on "gut" during the early game, probably a little more than I should.

As I am rereading, I am feeling less and less good about SensFan. I'm going to vote for either SensFan or Panzer. (Panzer for reasons mentioned in post 273)

FoS: SensFan

[bird1111]

Holy and Jex prodded.

[Thanatos]

As happy as I am to see the vote off of me, this changes nothing about my opinion on Lynching OTM. Just for the record.

[Thanatos]

SensFan, you're newer than Thanatos and you're still in the Goon stage. If you can figure it out, so can he.

Of course two townies can fight. We've been fighting, haven't we? However, there is something unusual in your realtionship with OTM...

I think it's because, up till you voted for him, my opinion of you was that you sided with whoever agreed with you. I was surprised by your vote on OTM, and want to investigate it further, starting by killing OTM, who is also the scummiest player in the game, currently.

[Korlash]

I'm confused... whose explanation sucked, Korlash?

OTM's. I can accept the "I don;t have time" thing because I too will/may have to use it later myself. RL issues and other games and the like always spring up you know. Just not for very long. I mean he is the closest to a lynch with a lot of people who do not seem like they want to switch their votes. So I think he really needs to do a bit better on the explanations/content level.

That being said I do appreciate his 328 as it does explain his unvote. I too like to trust my gut, but I also like to trust my brain! Ohh that will come back to haunt me... Go to McDonalds.. gut says cheese burger, brain says salad... order half the Menu... jeeze... this is why I go to Taco Bell *rolls eyes*

As I am rereading, I am feeling less and less good about SensFan. I'm going to vote for either SensFan or Panzer. (Panzer for reasons mentioned in post 273)

I just read 273 and I think your case on Panzer comes down to "Meta reasons, and he has a vendetta against me." Is that correct? Or is there more I missed?

And for Sens we have:

Ok point 1 was already discussed ad nauseum and he bring it up again, ignoring my explanation. Point 2 just seems like a reach to find possible scumminess. A lot of players vary up their playstyle like that, calling it a possible excuse for later lurking seems pretty odd to me.

Yes you explained the Phate thing. To some that may or may not be enough. And BTW yeah, I don't see that as enough for a vote cause I didn't actually read your original thing as you setting up a vote.

As for the playstyle thing I have seen it used before. I myself as scum have changed my playstyle form day to day depending on the situation. But I have never seen it done in the same day...

And yeah, to say you expect OTM to lurk means you have already made up your mind and are biased here. Only scum can afford to do that.

FoS: Sens

Me I am liking Thanatos less and less... Post 330 seems... um... I don't know... Just a thing I don't see the need for a town to do it... But all it is is a small vibe.

Then we have 331... Used the word kill instead of lynch. Had that stupid attack thrown at me twice before, and in both games I was scum... has to be something in it... Would rather find out info from player A by the death of player B. No... Town should never risk sacrificing someone just to get a read on someone else. Then the "OTM is the scummiest player in the game" seems like your just going with the crowd. I know you have given reasons and stuff before, just hate when people say stuff like that unbacked up.

Standings as of now:

still don't like Phate. Partly Gut, partly a few other things. Most of which can be chalked up to circumstantial evidence, stubbornness, and "playstyle" as dumb as that word is. I'm not really worried about his lynch right now... so... yeah... See no reason to press it.

Not liking the OTM wagon. I see it as scum powered. But to bus or to lynch a town I have yet to figure out. Um I would like to see more real evidence and stronger cases.

OTM himself is pretty suspicious on my list. I don't like his defenses to even some of the weaker cases. I too feel I can learn a lot from his death, but I don't like taking that chance, especially on day 1.

The rest are either partly scummy to me or leaning town. No reason to get into them right now until I have more to run with.

[Off the Mark]

Man, posts 330 and 331 are incredibly scummy-sounding. It's like Thanatos is suddenly confident, since I unvoted him. Probably just newbishness, but I don't get why he felt the need to share those thoughts. "Just for the record" especially strikes me as scummy-sounding.

[Thanatos]

I meant that as "don't expect me to back off just because you unvoted me. That's not how it works."

[Zhao]

I dislike this point, yet I dislike OTM's answer even more... On one hand, I myself have drasitcally changed my opinions in 100 posts... yet I have no problem actaully telling them to the town myself...

I don’t see any problem with changing one’s opinion. I have a problem with people changing them with no explanation … like a logical discontinuity in his thinking.

- FOS Kabenon because he is non-committal on Phate’s plan.
- Vote Kabanon because he is still non-committal.
- ???
- Kabanon is a trusted townie.

I am almost 100% positive he meant the "Town team" pretty hard to forget about that one isn't it? Unless of course you are not on it yourself...

I interpret it to mean either scum or mason team. So since I see things differently for you, I’m wrong? I don’t refer to townies as much as a team since they don’t know who is helping or hindering them, so there is less cohesiveness and direction.

I see that you’ve added a leading question to throw suspicion onto me, good attack there.

No, he is trying to get Phate's opinion on another player. While, at the same time, throwing suspicion ONTO Phate.

so your actually wrong either way you look at it. I hate when attacker's are wrong in their attacks. If a case gives room for obvious strawmanning, it gives room for failure.

No … OTM and Phate were having an exchange about the reasoning on which Phate voted for him. Thantos votes OTM. OTM says ‘let's change gears’ and asks Phate to comment about Thantos’s wagony vote. That feels like a deflection to me.

What is strawmanning?

I don;t like the "Non-commital" argument almost as much as I hate the "Opprotunistic" argument. Each one has it's own interpretation, and opinions of the matter will vary *Drastically* from player to player. What you see as non-commital, I may see as "Careful consideration" or maybe "Indepth examination." While I agree Zhao seems to have already made up his mind. This is cause for a scum pair relationship where one KNOWS he is bussing his partner... Not very strong, but not a bad starting place either.

Huh? You’re saying that OTM and I might be scum partners and I’ve decided to go after him? I'm not voting just for show; I think OTM is scummy enough for a lynch.

When I said OTM was setting up Kabenon, I did not say “I’m certain he setting him up” and “Anything OTM says in response is a falsehood”, I made a general accusation at OTM. He had the opportunity to say, “You are wrong Zhao, I did not pre-plan to set him up because so and so”, and I would have consider his explanation.

I'm sorry... were you not the one who attacked OTM for asking Phate a similar question?

Not so.

I was discussing how OTM was claiming Kabenon a trusted townie. Since the subject was about Kabenon, his participation was justified since he might add some information from his perspective.

Phate and OTM were discussing why OTM labeled Phate a trusted townie. Thantos’s vote had nothing to do with that subject.

First, I agree his explanations sucked... L-3 is not *that bad* so vote is ok for now... You definitly need to take it off should another vote surface, unless you can somehow manage a better attack.

So you think that OTM is scummy but there isn’t enough material for an OTM lynch? Is there any reason why you singled me out where I should unvote if he gets to L-1, given that others have placed a vote on him for less reasoning?

If you think we should slow down on the OTM lynch, could you provide reasoning on why we shouldn’t lynch him? Or at least show something that would make him less suspicious?

Second, I don't understand you here. By Bussing are you implying you think OTM and Phate are partners? Not implying anything myself, simply asking.

Is bussing a term only used to describe scum attacking other scum? I thought it was used to describe someone attacking another. An IC in my first newbie game used it in the context of townie attacking scum.

I had said earlier that Phate was suspicious because of his difficult attitude. But that’s not enough to label him scum.

However here you put him in the trust group. What happened from post 178-273 from him being suspicious enough for a vote to one of you ‘trusted’ townies? That’s a pretty big change.

He has showed townish reasoning in the way he has reasoned out the pros/cons of the plan.

However you outlined your reasoning around kabenon’s discussion of WIFOM and joking around with Korlash, having nothing to do with your original answer. What happened to townish reasoning for pro/cons of the plan?

[PJ.]

Wow, OTM still only has 3 votes? why?

[kabenon007]

Um... OTM has five votes...

[PJ.]

Oy, mixed the vote counts up my bad.

[kabenon007]

OMG confirmed scum! Lynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynch

[Jex]

I'm alive. Now that finals are over I'll work on catching up.

[Off the Mark]

Wow, OTM still only has 3 votes? why?

OK this is EXACTLY the type of posts Panzer was writing in our other game where he was scum. Almost word for word, actually. Huge tell.

vote: Panzerjager

[Phate]

*blinks at kabenon*

[Off the Mark]

However you outlined your reasoning around kabenon’s discussion of WIFOM and joking around with Korlash, having nothing to do with your original answer. What happened to townish reasoning for pro/cons of the plan?

The WIFOM discussion was a tangent off of the plan discussion, that's what I was referring to, but I was really going off the vibe I got from kabenon's last few posts, and I just guessed at what those posts were about. Yes, it was sloppy, I didn't have time for proper cites.

[Off the Mark]

I interpret it to mean either scum or mason team. So since I see things differently for you, I’m wrong?

Yes, you're wrong. I'm the one whose words you're misinterpreting so I can tell you - you're wrong. Did you read my scum game? You think I would make that mistake, if team could only mean scum or masons? I'm insulted.

[kabenon007]

*blinks at blinker*
You crackin' wise, hopscotch?

[Phate]

Lay off the painkillers, dude.

Are you just spamming or are you genuinely trying to push OTM's lynch with that or are you making fun of Panzer or what?

[kabenon007]

I've already expressed my thoughts of OTM, but he is at -2, and I do not wish to put him at -1 yet. I would never dream of making fun of a purple kitty... too frightening. If he says nothing to make me change my mind, I will be voting for him.

[Holy]

I'm back...
Sorry guys, I had problem with my CMOS battery and RAM.

Okay...

... Zhao seems to equate bad plan with scum, which seems disingenuous to me, and

not a true townie-thought-process

, so I became suspicious when Zhao said Phate was suspicious. Sure, scum could come up with a bad plan that would benefit scum more than town, but that is SO risky, and

Phate's plan doesn't strike me that way.

QFT...

True, if you followed the plan that thrown by Phate and truly tried to analyze the plan cons/pros, Zhao's posted thoughts to me seems like not following that 'townie-thought-process'. Although there's a possibility Phate is scum with such 'a plan', but yeah... his plan doesn't seems like a red alert for me too.

I also feel that you potentially fit into the role of "scum leading town" by working on the OTM lynch, you think that that gets you off the hook. I'm not saying this is true, I just think that, by Killing OTM, I have the best ability to examine you, not to mention his own, innate, scumminess.

I didn't understand these...
From your words, you seem like stating that OTM would come out as townie which has a scum driven lynch How could you be so sure? Even I can't really tell whether OTM is townie or scum.

Oh well, I'm too sleepy to continue now, I'll post more tomorrow.

[Phate]

Even

you? What do you mean by that?