Mini 533: Something wicked this way comes! Game over!

[Disciple Slayer]

Jeez, hammering me BEFORE I posted an explanation? Too bad you'll never get to see it til the end of the game. Zeek, I KNEW you were scum. See ya guys. I told you so. Go town.

[ZeekLTK]

More like hammering you before you could hammer yourself. :p

If you "KNOW" I'm scum then you better acquire some new knowledge, because I'm not.

You aren't dead yet, so if you really are on my side (with the town), you can still tell us whatever you needed to. But I suspect you had nothing to say - you just wanted a chance to hammer yourself.

[SensFan]

With that last response, I am very happy with his lynch, town or not.

[Disciple Slayer]

Am I still allowed to post my explanation? If I am, here it is. I made myself an easy target for scum looking to push an early mislynch, but I went a little too far to the point that people started suspecting that I was a jester. I am not a jester. I'm a vanilla townie trying out a new strategy. It needs some tweaking, I think. Check out the people who jumped on my wagon without giving any reasons, and the person who hammered before I could explain myself. What are the chances of a jester who needs to lynch himself as compared to a bored plain vanilla townie? I suggest you lynch the guy who hammered me. Something seems off about him. Also look into the person who suggested the idea of a jester that needed to lynch himself. Peace, guys. See you at the end of the game.

[SensFan]

So wait, you

intentionally played scummy

? Yeah, if you did the same thing in another game I play with you, I will once again go all-out trying to lynch you.

[ZeekLTK]

Am I still allowed to post my explanation? If I am, here it is. I made myself an easy target for scum looking to push an early mislynch, but I went a little too far to the point that people started suspecting that I was a jester. I am not a jester. I'm a vanilla townie trying out a new strategy. It needs some tweaking, I think. Check out the people who jumped on my wagon without giving any reasons, and the person who hammered before I could explain myself. What are the chances of a jester who needs to lynch himself as compared to

a bored plain vanilla townie

? I suggest you lynch the guy who hammered me. Something seems off about him. Also look into the person who suggested the idea of a jester that needed to lynch himself. Peace, guys. See you at the end of the game.

In a normal game, the chances are low. However in this game, *to me*, it is more likely that you are a jester than a vanilla townie.

This is from a few pages ago:

Well based on my role I am pretty sure there are no vanilla townies in this game, so either way (if he's jester or not), he is lying to us.

this got my spidey senses tingling. If you are town Zeek, then this is a blunder.
And Slayer, i have no clue why you want to be put so close to getting yourself lynched. i have no idea what you can be up to where getting yourself "nearly" lynched is a good thing.
I have no clue what you could possibly say if you did get that close that wouldn't result in you actualyl getting lyched

I said this because I wanted to try to breadcrumb for when I eventually claimed, but I don't really know how to breadcrumb so I don't think this had the intended effected. Therefore, I will explain myself now:

I felt like there is a good chance that there is a jester in this game because of my role: I am a miller.

Oddly enough, this is only my 4th game on this site, but it's the 2nd time I've gotten miller. Check my "wiki profile" to see the last game I was in as a miller.

That game is the reason I feel there could be a jester in this game, and is why I completely do not buy that there are vanilla townies in this game.

In that game, I figured that because I got miller it meant that everyone had some kind of role. Eventually role claims came out and 10/12 people had claimed one kind of role or the other. Then some guy tried to claim vanilla. I called him out because of it (why would everyone but him have a role?), and because I called him out, we eventually figured out that he was the serial killer.

Then the exact same thing happened here. Someone claimed vanilla in a mini game where I am the miller... I smell something fishy again; because I'm a miller, and because of my past experience as miller, I really doubt there is a vanilla townie here.

So this is why I had no problem hammering him: if he is going to lie about being a vanilla townie... why is he lying? He must have a role that is against me... against the town. And I have no reservations about getting rid of a player that is not trying to win with the town.

If you really are a vanilla townie, then that was terribly played. You should NEVER act anti-town. You have caused this lynch more than anything. How can you not think that EVERYONE in the game will be against you when, while on L-4, you tell everyone that you will only explain once you get to L-1? Why would you even suggest that you be put at L-1? If you are town why would you not try to help us find scum and put THEM at L-1 instead? Then you continually tell us you won't say anything until you are at L-1. The most logical thing that I can conclude from this is that you are a jester and you need to lynch yourself... so you keep telling us to put you on L-1 but "wait, let's hear what he has to say"... and so we wait and then you come in and say "haha suckers, I was a jester and now I'm going to lynch myself."

To me, especially being a miller, that is much more likely to be the case than you being an idiot townie. I'm still waiting to see the mod's post. It wouldn't surprise me if you are still lying about your role even after we've voted to lynch you.

But I am revealing myself now because most likely a cop is going to investigate me tonight... when he gets a guilty he will probably claim to the town and then they will lynch another townie (me) and then we will lose the cop at night because the mafia will obviously kill him.

So there, even if you guys don't believe that I am a miller, realize that I will give a guilty to the cop regardless, so if you are a cop, don't investigate me. My result is guilty. Go after the real bad guys instead.

[ZeekLTK]

and looking back, if DS is really a townie. I think Lowell has to be the #1 candidate to be scum.

[Qman]

Vote Count the Fourth! It's a lynch!

Disciple Slayer

- 7

(MichelSableHeart, Lowell, Sensfan, OhGodMyLife, geraintim, soupfly, ZeekLTK)

MichelSableheart

- 1

(Quickben)

TheSweatpantsNinja

- 1

(Yvonneseer)

soupfly

- 1

(Disciple Slayer)

sensfan

- 1

(TheSweatpantsNinja)

Not Voting

- 1

(Petunho)

People start pointing fingers at others without rhyme nor reason, suspicion runs rampant! Strange guy that he is, Disciple Slayer seems to want to be suspected. Minds start churning, heads must roll!

But wait says someonw, "He could be a Jester!" This catches the attention of a few people and more discussion starts!

Disciple Slayer wants to reach L-1 so can can explain himself... how strangely Jester like!

Well eventually he gets there, and his oddly strange actions catch up with him... in the form of a noose about the neck. The result?

A trapdoor and a swift

*CRACK*

later, Disciple Slayer is dead!

Disciple Slayer

,

Townie

, is dead!

It is now Night One.

All players with Night Choices have 72 hours to submit their choices.

IT IS NIGHT THAT MEANS NO MORE POSTING.

As I forgot to lock the thread two people were able to post after night started, and did so, twice. If they do so again, they will be modkilled.

This means you, ZeekLTK and SweatpantsNinja

Those posts have been removed.


Carry on.

[Qman]

The next morning, everyone gathers in the town square. Everyone seems the be there which is good... the problem? Someone ain't alive!

Following the sound of a blaring horn, you find Yvonneseer slumped over onto the steering wheel of her car, a pile of doughnuts and pistacho shells on the front seat beside her. The strangest thing (what besides being dead) is the faint smell of almonds in the air... since when do doughnuts smell like almonds?

Interesting.

Yvonneseer

,

Cop

is dead!

It is now Day 2, with 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch!

[ZeekLTK]

To continue where we left off last night (game time at least):

The jester discussion is irrelevant because he's probably not a jester, but generally you don't lynch jesters because that satisfies their win condition (frequently to the exclusion of the town).

That is why I wanted to hammer him as soon as he got to L-1, I had come to the conclusion (incorrectly, in hindsight) that he was a jester but the only way he could win was if he lynched himself (my thinking was: why else would he keep asking us to put him on L-1?). Therefore I wanted to lynch him before he could lynch himself and that would prevent him from winning. I already stated that, a couple of times, before we lynched him (though not as bluntly).

The reason you would claim now is because it looks better than claiming after a guilty. Were I the cop, I would certainly investigate you, and I think you were trying to cover your bases in anticipation of that. You are right, though, the cop shouldn't investigate you now. Rather, we can proceed with lynching you without the cop having to reveal himself. So that's good.

Again you are completely overlooking the fact that I have not covered any bases. I admitted that I will give a guilty result. If I were mafia and I felt that I would be suspected, wouldn't I want the cop to have to come forward to reveal me so that my teammates could then kill him before he found any more of them? Instead what has happened is the exact opposite, I have given the cop a chance to find scum without having to waste a night's investigation on me AND without having to reveal himself. This would be a TERRIBLE move for scum to make, and yet I have made it. So why would you push for my lynch? In my last game as miller I made sure to claim on Day 1, and in this game I have done the same. A miller is dangerous to the town if he is unclaimed, so I have claimed as early as possible.

And look at what happened, the cop did not even survive the night. So therefore it is even dumber for a mafia member to claim like I did. Unless you think I'm a poor mafia member (which I'm not, I've won both games that I've been scum in and wasn't lynched in either) then I fail to see any reasons why you shouldn't believe my claim.

Moving along, to me the top suspects are:

soupfly

- I said I would hammer if he went to L-1 (because I thought he was a self-lynching jester - already explained this earlier in this post), so soupfly purposefully put him on L-1 knowing this. Also soupfly seemed to imply that he knew that DS was town with his post after the vote. "If you hammer and he's town..." seems to me he is a mafia who has just cast a vote that will get one townie lynched and is now setting up the bandwagon for Day 2 with the statement. It's like he knew DS was going to turn up town when he said that whereas I did not begin to think DS would be town until AFTER he had been lynched and continued to stick with his story (generally if you are lynched, you admit what your role is if you were previously lying - since he stuck with his story I began to feel like he was telling the truth - but it was obviously too late to do anything). When I voted, I genuinely believed that DS was either mafia or jester, hence why I voted to lynch him. soupfly seemed to be voting with the thought that DS is probably town and he wanted to see me get in trouble for lynching him... why would you vote to help lynch someone you think might be town?? Oh yeah, you'd do it if you were mafia!

Lowell

- Lowell hasn't done much other than lurk, but the few posts he has made are not that great... his 2 votes have both been bandwagon votes; he voted for me with a 3rd vote (still has not explained it), then that bandwagon was going no where so he changed to DS. Both of these bandwagon votes were against townies too. Also, he tried to throw some suspicion on Yvonneseer for a small remark I made about her FoS, but when that was going nowhere he didn't follow up on it.

TheSweatpantsNinja

- Sat back and watched the DS bandwagon go forward, then AFTER it happened he acted upset. He is the only person who defended DS during the day, when there was no logical reason to defend him. DS even just admitted (after we lynched him) that he deliberately acted scummy, but TSPN constantly defended him saying that he didn't think DS was scummy at all. Why? The only way you could possibly consider defending his actions would be if you KNEW he was town and you were just waiting until he got lynched so you could say "I told you so". And of course, the only way you could KNOW if he was town was if you were mafia.


My last post before night said Lowell would be the #1 suspect, but I was wrong, while he is suspicious, I think soupfly is even more suspicious due to, well, everything I said above. You don't put someone on L-1 (regardless of if I said I was going to lynch or not) and then say that "you're gonna be screwed if you lynch him and he's town". Why would you put him on L-1 then if you think he might be town???

vote: soupfly

[soupfly]

soupfly

- I said I would hammer if he went to L-1 (because I thought he was a self-lynching jester - already explained this earlier in this post), so soupfly purposefully put him on L-1 knowing this. Also soupfly seemed to imply that he knew that DS was town with his post after the vote. "If you hammer and he's town..." seems to me he is a mafia who has just cast a vote that will get one townie lynched and is now setting up the bandwagon for Day 2 with the statement. It's like he knew DS was going to turn up town when he said that whereas I did not begin to think DS would be town until AFTER he had been lynched and continued to stick with his story (generally if you are lynched, you admit what your role is if you were previously lying - since he stuck with his story I began to feel like he was telling the truth - but it was obviously too late to do anything). When I voted, I genuinely believed that DS was either mafia or jester, hence why I voted to lynch him. soupfly seemed to be voting with the thought that DS is probably town and he wanted to see me get in trouble for lynching him... why would you vote to help lynch someone you think might be town?? Oh yeah, you'd do it if you were mafia!

vote: soupfly

pathetic argument. hammering DS was the wrong play...period. if you point a gun at a guy and say "i'll shoot you if you move", you'll get the chair if he moves and you shoot him...ultimately you pull the trigger and that's all that matters. you're either scum or a very bad player. i'll do a little metagaming to see which is more likely.

for the time being:

vote: ZeekLTK

for pathetic town play or typical WIFOM scum play.

[YvonneSeer]

Bah, you've got to be fucking kidding me! Go town!

[ZeekLTK]

pathetic argument. hammering DS was the wrong play...period. if you point a gun at a guy and say "i'll shoot you if you move", you'll get the chair if he moves and you shoot him...ultimately you pull the trigger and that's all that matters. you're either scum or a very bad player. i'll do a little metagaming to see which is more likely.

Why did *you* put him on L-1 if you didn't think he should be hammered?

[soupfly]

pathetic argument. hammering DS was the wrong play...period. if you point a gun at a guy and say "i'll shoot you if you move", you'll get the chair if he moves and you shoot him...ultimately you pull the trigger and that's all that matters. you're either scum or a very bad player. i'll do a little metagaming to see which is more likely.

Why did *you* put him on L-1 if you didn't think he should be hammered?

because i could not let a typical scum ploy go unchallenged. you basically pre-justified a scummy action because lynching so quickly was not in the town's interest. my vote had nothing to do with DS and everything to do with your declaration. typically when you hammer you also take responsibility for the consequences of your actions and i even wrote this in my post:

vote: discipline slayer --> what happens next will tell us alot!

@ZeekLTK: you hammer and he's town and...

while I hate to sacrifice a townie to catch a scum, you basically walked right into that one. besides, DS's play was pretty awful so he would have probably gotten lynched anyways, but the fact that you jumped the gun to get it done so quickly tells us alot.

i'll take responsibility for taking DS to L-1 where there is an inherent risk of opportunistic scum or over-zealous townie hammering too soon. But you ZeekLTK have full responsibility for dropping the hammer. Sorry but prejustifying that you'd hammer at L-1 does not transform my vote into the equivalent of the hammer. the hammer is all yours and now you need to answer for it.

[MichelSableheart]

In the hope that Disciple Slayer is still reading: You should not have refused to explain before you were put at L-1. If you are playing extremely scummy, it's unlikely that any requests you make will be heeded, as Zeek's quickhammer showed.

On with the game.

Zeek, what is your definition of a mini normal? Why did you believe a jester who has to hammer himself is possible in a mini normal, when several other players have mentioned that they believe a jester is unlikely at all? And why on earth would you believe that the fact that you're a miller would indicate that there are no townies? Townies are, in my opinion, one of the most important elements of a normal game. A single theme game where you were a miller is not a good sample of a random mini normal.

I dislike the way you lynched, Zeek. Appearantly the post I made when DS was at L-1 wasn't clear enough. I repeated that I wanted to hear DS explanation. I repeated that I believed a jester unlikely. I should probably have mentioned explicitly that I didn't want DS lynched at that point.

I strongly disagree with your suspicion of thesweatpantsninja. Before the lynching vote, all he said was that he didn't really believe that Disciple Slayer was scum. To claim that's defending DS is a stretch. To claim that the only reason to state that you don't believe someone who is heavily attacked to be scum would be that you know him to be town and want to be able to say 'I told you so', is ridiculous. A townie who believed DS to be pro-town would say exactly the same thing.

Also, I have absolutely no clue how you can claim that TSpN 'sat back and watched the DS wagon go forward', and then later on in that paragraph state 'but TSPN constantly defended him saying that he didn't think DS was scummy at all.' If TSpN constantly defended DS, he was NOT sitting back!

The posts made by TheSweatpantsNinja after nightfall have been deleted. I am unable to read them, so it is impossible for me to check if the quotes you're using are correct, and what their context is.

I agree with soupfly that you are playing rather poorly. I'm not really willing to vote on that directly after the DS mislynch though.

[ZeekLTK]

Zeek, what is your definition of a mini normal? Why did you believe a jester who has to hammer himself is possible in a mini normal, when several other players have mentioned that they believe a jester is unlikely at all? And why on earth would you believe that the fact that you're a miller would indicate that there are no townies? Townies are, in my opinion, one of the most important elements of a normal game. A single theme game where you were a miller is not a good sample of a random mini normal.

I dislike the way you lynched, Zeek. Appearantly the post I made when DS was at L-1 wasn't clear enough. I repeated that I wanted to hear DS explanation. I repeated that I believed a jester unlikely. I should probably have mentioned explicitly that I didn't want DS lynched at that point.

I strongly disagree with your suspicion of thesweatpantsninja. Before the lynching vote, all he said was that he didn't really believe that Disciple Slayer was scum. To claim that's defending DS is a stretch. To claim that the only reason to state that you don't believe someone who is heavily attacked to be scum would be that you know him to be town and want to be able to say 'I told you so', is ridiculous. A townie who believed DS to be pro-town would say exactly the same thing.

Also, I have absolutely no clue how you can claim that TSpN 'sat back and watched the DS wagon go forward', and then later on in that paragraph state 'but TSPN constantly defended him saying that he didn't think DS was scummy at all.' If TSpN constantly defended DS, he was NOT sitting back!

The posts made by TheSweatpantsNinja after nightfall have been deleted. I am unable to read them, so it is impossible for me to check if the quotes you're using are correct, and what their context is.

I agree with soupfly that you are playing rather poorly. I'm not really willing to vote on that directly after the DS mislynch though.

"Why did you believe a jester who has to hammer himself is possible in a mini normal, when several other players have mentioned that they believe a jester is unlikely at all? And why on earth would you believe that the fact that you're a miller would indicate that there are no townies?"

I have played one other mini game.

In that game I was a miller and there were NO vanilla townies.

In this game I am a miller again, therefore, based on my ONLY other experience in a mini, I think that it's likely that, again, there are NO vanilla townies.

In the last game, we had a guy who, if lynched, would cause us to miss the night stage. We had an insane cop, we had some masons, we had a one shot vig... and we had NO vanilla townies. In fact, I called out a player who claimed vanilla in that game (because I was like "why would all these other people have roles and not you?") and because of that we nailed him as the serial killer.

So I figure if I'm a miller again, it's probably a similar set up - a game with all kinds of wacky roles. So with that in mind, I see DS' play on Day 1:

He's on L-4 and he's ASKING to be put on L-1, he's purposefully playing scummy, he claims vanilla townie for absolutely no reason (why would anyone role claim at the point that he did?). This is doing nothing to cause me to doubt my initial suspicion that I'm in a game where everyone has some kind of role, no matter how weird it might be. And given his actions, I think if he has to have some kind of role, there is a good chance it's a jester. And given that he keeps asking to go to L-1, I think there's a good chance he has a condition where he wins only if he lynches himself.

That is why I didn't want him to go to L-1, that's why I said I'd hammer. I was hoping I'd deter anyone from putting him there.

But then soupfly did put him at L-1 and these were my options:

-I can wait until DS comes on where I think there is a *good possibility* that he will probably post something like: "haha suckers, thanks for the L-1; vote myself" and lynch himself, thus winning the game

or

-I can lynch him before he has a chance to and hopefully prevent him from winning (again, hoping that he had a condition where he had to lynch himself)

I decided I would like to not see the jester win and thus lynched him. But apparently I was wrong from the get go... However, I hope you understand where I was coming from.

And I agree my case against TSPN isn't that strong, but that's why my vote is for soupfly and not him. I listed my suspicions in order, and he was only #3.

But do you not find it strange that TSPN did say, a couple times, that he didn't think DS was scummy... yet after being lynched DS comes out and says he was playing scummy on purpose?

[ZeekLTK]

pathetic argument.

hammering DS was the wrong play...period.

if you point a gun at a guy and say "i'll shoot you if you move", you'll get the chair if he moves and you shoot him...ultimately you pull the trigger and that's all that matters. you're either scum or a very bad player. i'll do a little metagaming to see which is more likely.

because i could not let a typical scum ploy go unchallenged. you basically pre-justified a scummy action because lynching so quickly was not in the town's interest. my vote had nothing to do with DS and everything to do with your declaration. typically when you hammer you also take responsibility for the consequences of your actions and i even wrote this in my post:

vote: discipline slayer --> what happens next will tell us alot!

@ZeekLTK: you hammer and he's town and...

while I hate to sacrifice a townie to catch a scum, you basically walked right into that one. besides, DS's play was pretty awful so he would have probably gotten lynched anyways, but the fact that you jumped the gun to get it done so quickly tells us alot.

If this was anyone else trying to make this case I would simply concede that it was a bad move on my part. However, this is how I view the situation:

I said I'd hammer (already explained why in the post above).

You, as scum, see this. You know that I am a townie and I have threatened to kill another townie if anyone puts him on L-1. Your scum eyes probably got real big at the thought of this happening.

So you come in and put him on L-1, but you also said "if he's town..."

You were already setting it up to go after me because you KNEW he would turn up town.

Then the part I bolded, but I will put it here because I want to make sure EVERYONE sees it:

"hammering DS was the wrong play...period."

The wrong play? Period? Okay this is a fine argument for ANYONE else to make EXCEPT you. You put him at L-1. By putting him at L-1 you are basically saying that you think it is okay to lynch this player. Why else would you put it at L-1?

But now you've done a complete 180. You've gone from saying "we should lynch DS" (which is what your VOTE said) to "DS should absolutely not have been lynched"... for NO reason other than to shift your agenda to attack another townie (me).

Everything you have done since putting him on L-1 just screams

SCUM

to me. Hopefully everyone else sees through you as well.

[Lowell]

Ok, folks, I've been lazy. Here's my take on D1.

27-34 First "argument" of the day, between DS and MichelSableheart
35- Sensfan sides w/ MS
36- QUickben sides w/ DS, votes MS [OMGUSy]
37- Zeek sides w/ MS, votes DS
38- DS votes Zeek for misrepresentation
39- OhGodMyLife calls 38 OMGUS, votes DS
42- Petunho sides with MS
46- Zeek posts lengthy rebuttal to DS
47- DS responds to 46
55-56- Yvonne (FOS), souply (vote) attack DS for setting up D2 lynch
67- soupfly talks about claiming [looks a bit like fishing]
69- OGML encourages DS to post his thoughts [looks a bit suspicious]
70-73- geraintm, MS, zeek, and yvonne posit "DS as Jester" theory
78- MS votes DS [finally!]
81- OGML unvotes DS, worries of jester [odd]
83- soupfly votes OGML for the strange unvote [good]
85- zeek says there are no vanilla townies (in response to DS's townie claim)
89- geraintm finds this VERY odd
92- Lowell votes DS, FOSs yvonne
94- Zeek votes Lowell for opportunism
99- Sweatpantsninja subs in, votes Lowell
101-109- Sensfan votes DS, FOSs yvonne; yvonne and Sensfan argue about likeliness of jester
106- sweatpantsninja votes Sensfan, for same reason as he votes Lowell
113- sweatpantsninja declares DS unlikely to be jester [inconsistent with previous votes]
115- OGML votes DS [also inconsistent with previous vote]
118- geraintm votes DS [also no longer believes he's a jester]
120- soupfly votes DS, puts him at L-1
123- zeek hammer DS
129- Sensfan chides DS for his play [looks like he already KNOWS DS is a townie]

MAIN LINES of argument:
27-42: DS, Quickben vs. MS, Zeek, Sensfan, OhGodMyLife over plausibility of early scumtell
46-51: DS vs. Zeek... continuation of above
100-110: Several players debate DS as jester

Suspicious behavior:

sweatpantsninja & OGML

both switch their stance on DS being a jester (out of nowhere), adding 4th and 5th votes.

zeek

, after accusing players of opportunism for voting DS, then hammers DS himself ALMOST IMMEDIATELY after he's put at L-1

Assessment:

unvote, vote sweatpantsninja

. He has impressed me the least since subbing in. He joined with post 99, and immediately voted Lowell (who zeek had just voted). In post 106 he has a sort of continuation on that theme, voting Sensfan for siding against him by voting DS. However, 7 posts later he says, of DS, "As to the whole jester nonsense, jester by itself is a pretty unusual role for a normal . . . a jester that has to lynch himself would be even more unusual. I really don't think he's a jester of any sort." He defended yvonne's actions (who said DS was likely a jester) then turned around and voted DS himself in the period of 7 posts.

My take on him is that he's a player who is diligently chasing popular opinion. All of his actions have been, to say the least, reactionary.

I'll add an

FOS OGML

for similar reasons. I really don't like the 110-118 stretch, where THREE different people go from thinking DS might be a jester to all of a sudden putting him at lynch -2. OGML, in particular, was active in both the discussions about DS as jester AND the quick bandwagon based on the unlikeliness of DS being jester. OGML, like sweatpantsninja, seems to be chasing the safe and popular movements of others.

One other thing. Sensfan's post 129. Care to explain post 129? You seemed to know that we had mislynched before anyone else...

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Well, zeek, i'm glad you saved a couple of the critical quotes from post-nightfall quotes. And yeah, they're fair representations of what I said. I also pointed out that I saw DS' play as reckless and aggressive, but not scummy. I still defy anyone to point out one of his 'scummy' posts. So I didn't like his bandwagon, and I said so from

my first post in the game.

I don't understand the fascination with jester either. . . but I also don't think DS is scum.

Compare that to these quotes:

Sat back and watched the DS bandwagon go forward, then AFTER it happened he acted upset.

sweatpantsninja & OGML both switch their stance on DS being a jester (out of nowhere), adding 4th and 5th votes. . .

My take on him is that he's a player who is diligently chasing popular opinion.

I'm going to give Lowell a pass, actually, because he must have misread the thread. I didn't vote DS, I defended him from as soon as I entered the game, called him not being a jester out from as soon as I entered the game. No flip-flopping, and if by 'chasing popular opinion,' lowell means 'only person defending lynched townie,' then I guess he's right.

The most important thing in any case is that zeek, unprovoked, claimed miller. I think he did that because he expected to be investigated. In any case, we have a confirmed guilty investigation on zeek, plus a quickhammer on a townie, plus misrepresenting my position. More than good enough for me.

Vote: Zeek.

[MichelSableheart]

Zeek, that other mini game you played was a mini theme. This game is a mini normal. Even if you have the same role in both games, I find your assumption that therefore the games are similar completely ridiculous. Take a look at the definition of a normal game. There is absolutely NO way a mini normal can be 'a game with all kinds of wacky roles'.

decided I would like to not see the jester win and thus lynched him.

This is so wrong it's sig material. According to the definition of a Jester, a Jester is a role which wins if they are lynched.

The wrong play? Period? Okay this is a fine argument for ANYONE else to make EXCEPT you. You put him at L-1. By putting him at L-1 you are basically saying that you think it is okay to lynch this player. Why else would you put it at L-1?

To finally get DS talking? To see if you'll follow up your threat?

I don't think that lynching DS was a bad idea yesterday. I think quickhammering the way you did was a horrible play though.
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I dislike Lowell's play even more. During day 1, he was part of the lynching bandwagon without having commented on it whatsoever. He also ignored questions about the reasons for his votes (#59, #62).

Also some quotes from his game summary:

69- OGML encourages DS to post his thoughts [looks a bit suspicious]

Why does it look suspicious? As Zeek's quicklynch proved, waiting till L-1 was a bad idea for DS.

106- sweatpantsninja votes Sensfan, for same reason as he votes Lowell

He voted you for an unexplained 3rd vote. He voted Sensfan for 2 factual errors. How is that the same reason?

113- sweatpantsninja declares DS unlikely to be jester [inconsistent with previous votes]

I don't see the inconsistency. He stated in earlier posts that he didn't believe DS to be either scum or jester. Neither of his two previous votes where made on the assumption that DS was a jester.

118- geraintm votes DS [also no longer believes he's a jester]

When did geraintm believe DS was a jester?

129- Sensfan chides DS for his play [looks like he already KNOWS DS is a townie]

Not surprisingly, since DS did a full claim including explanation in #128.

I also dislike that Lowell's summary does not include Zeek's suspicion of a jester who has to hammer himself, which explains WHY Zeek hammered almost immediately.

Lowell's vote for TSpN is based on misrepresentation. His ignoring of the current argument between soupfly and Zeek is strange. His unexplained participation in the lynching wagon is bad. His ignoring questions for explanation during day 1 isn't too good either.

Vote: Lowell

[geraintm]

right now, zeek is the person i am most suspcious of. i didn't like his play day 1 and still don't like it

day 1 moved way too fast for my liking. it felt like we rushed it. didnt help DS made it so easy for people to pil eon

the shot to kill Yvonne was very good. my reading of yvonne now of yesterday was your typical cautious cop, not wanting anyone to rush the game. do people think scum managed to guess she was a cop or got lucky?

[ZeekLTK]

The most important thing in any case is that zeek, unprovoked, claimed miller. I think he did that because he expected to be investigated. In any case, we have a confirmed guilty investigation on zeek, plus a quickhammer on a townie, plus misrepresenting my position. More than good enough for me.

Vote: Zeek.

This is the most important thing but somehow you are not realizing this is not what a mafia player would do.

These are all the possibilities for night:

-Cop investigates someone other than me
-Cop gets roleblocked
-Cop is inactive and forgets to send in a selection
-Cop gets killed

Those are all realistic possibilities which would lead to a cop not investigating me and thus I would have nothing to worry about. Wouldn't it make sense for me, If I was mafia, to play the odds and see if one of those happened??

Plus, even if the cop did investigate me, he would have to roleclaim in order to give that investigation result to the town and would thus be known to the mafia to be killed. Again, another thing that you'd probably do if you were mafia - make the cop out himself.

Instead I have done the exact opposite of ALL of that. I have told everyone about my guilty verdict so that everyone knows where I stand regardless of what happens to the cop at night AND so the cop does not waste an investigation on me AND so the cop does not reveal himself unless he has found a true scum member.

As a townie, I have nothing to hide. This is further proven when I

bring up deleted arguments that accused me and respond to them

, as I did with the first response of today. You even said:

Well, zeek, i'm glad you saved a couple of the critical quotes from post-nightfall quotes. And yeah, they're fair representations of what I said.

Why would I save critical posts where you attacked/questioned me if I were mafia? That would not make any sense. As mafia I would most likely want that discussion to be gone and forgotten so it can't be used against me. But as I said, I have nothing to hide, so I felt I would bring it forward and address it.

I'm going to give Lowell a pass, actually, because he must have misread the thread. I didn't vote DS, I defended him from as soon as I entered the game, called him not being a jester out from as soon as I entered the game. No flip-flopping, and if by 'chasing popular opinion,' lowell means 'only person defending lynched townie,' then I guess he's right.

Oh so Lowell, who has played fairly anti-town the entire game (as MichelSabelheart pointed out above), gets a free pass... however I try to help the town by claiming my role to help the cop and I'm the guy that you feel needs to be lynched?

[Petunho]

Both SoupFly and Zeek have some scummy aspects in their play. Let me look at Zeek first. What bothers me is that he didn't even give town a chance to hear DS opinion in L-1 situation. Zeek made the choice by himself not to give DS the opportunity to explain himself when he got where he wanted. Ok, DS was playing scummy also in my eyes and the 'put me in L-1' shouting didn't do any favor for him, but Zeek making that kind of decision and pre-justification for his lynchvote doesn't look good. You have explained your point of view of the situation and I can see where you are coming from, but the whole situation made you look scummy did you wanted it or not.

I don't think that lynching DS was a bad idea yesterday. I think quickhammering the way you did was a horrible play though.

QFT. My thoughts exactly.

Zeek's claim as miller can be seen in the two perspectives what have been brought up here.
A) Zeek, as a townie, wanted to protect the cop from unnecessary investigation and cop-claim.
B) Zeek, as a scum, wanted to secure his back by saying he would anyhow give guilty inspection result.

There have been good arguments in both directions (Zeek's towniness and scumminess) and I'm not ready to categorize you just one of them 'cause the conflicting facts atm. I have study a bit more the discussion that have been going on here.

SoupFly's attempt to put all the blaim concerning the lynch on Zeek is suspicious in my eyes. Zeek said he would hammer DS and you put him L-1 even if you weren't sure DS's scumminess. Yes, Zeek have to take responsibility for his vote, but you also cannot run the fact that it was you who put DS L-1 knowing that he would be lynched for sure. Would you have put him L-1 if Zeek hasn't told that he would hammer? Was your vote based on the fact that DS would be for sure hammered? You are there for as much responsible for the lynch as Zeek is. You have correctly pointed out that Zeek's statement doesn't change your vote into hammervote, but the statement makes it much more than regular L-1 vote.

Zeek have made some other good points about SoupFly's play and I'm agreeing most of them, but because I'm not even sure about Zeek's innocence, I'll hold my vote for now and check the situation more closely before jumping with my vote.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Oh so Lowell, who has played fairly anti-town the entire game (as MichelSabelheart pointed out above), gets a free pass... however I try to help the town by claiming my role to help the cop and I'm the guy that you feel needs to be lynched?

I should be clear, Lowell only gets a free pass on misrepresenting my argument, because I don't think as scum, he was thinking, "I will make up a vote by TSPN, and that will convince everyone to lynch him." I agree that he has been playing anti-town, and would probably be my second choice.

However, you were also anti-town, and have claimed a guilty cop result. Millers stretch the bounds of normal in any case, they aren't all that common, and I just don't believe you.

The zeek-soupfly argument is unfortunately circular, is it zeek's fault for hammering at L-1 without DS getting a chance to speak, or soupfly's fault for knowing that zeek would hammer and putting DS at L-1 (or zeek's fault for saying that he would hammer so he could accuse whoever put him at L-1). I do, however, disagree with "if he's town," being a scummy move. Desiring to cover your ass is, I think, universal.

[MichelSableheart]

the shot to kill Yvonne was very good. my reading of yvonne now of yesterday was your typical cautious cop, not wanting anyone to rush the game. do people think scum managed to guess she was a cop or got lucky?

It seems more likely to me that they killed Yvonne for different reasons, and got the cop as an added bonus. She was the only player going after lurkers on day 1, and therefore the only threat to any scum who want to lurk to endgame. The fact that she didn't change her mind on DS, and was therefore difficult to manipulate, might have been a reason for the nightkill too.

I would really like to see another post by QuickBen again.