STEVEN UNIVERSE 2 - GAME OVER

[MagnaofIllusion]

Claimed Events

–

Creature – “Rising Tides, Crashing Skies”
RR – None left
Kraska – ???
Shadow – None
Almost50 - ???
Grapes - ???
Shiro – “Well,whatever you are don't be a stranger.”
Farside22 – “Cool Down Lap”
Fuzzylogic - “Are You In there Steven”

@farside

– Can you explain a little more in depth what your “check” entails? Thanks.

--

I need to be in an alliance to use my vig ability.... I think I was blocked bc someone prob thought I might kill the wrong person,,,,,,,

Remind me again of the details of your Vig and if you have used it prior to now. Thanks!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I notice nothing in that claim about not being able to be blocked ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mostly phone posting today due to travel.

When I get time I will go through and see if everyone has responded about remaining Events.

Strongly leaning Creature as my vote for today but other things need to be taken care of first before that happens.

@Random

- you need to do what we talked about in our Alliance PT.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Almost

- I want to cut to the chase ... I see no reason to lynch Fuzzy first as an uncounterclaimed Vig kill on Firebringer when zero flips (and Chara) contradict the shot. Scum already had plenty of additional NK power with Remote Detonator and the Cluster event. Furthermore no reason for a scum Vig shot to take out Firebringer of all players.

Maybe more tonight once I have some time. If not probably tomorrow.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also - kraska's "I'm confirmed Town in 3player LYLO" is such a crap claim I can't even begin to understand why anyone is taking that into consideration given Titus is an Innocent Child.

[MagnaofIllusion]

FIRSTLY – no more votes!

. Randommidget has something he absolutely needs to do before the lynch today is hammered.

Claimed Events

–

Creature – “Rising Tides, Crashing Skies”
RR – None left
Kraska – None left
Shadow – None
Almost50 - None
Grapes - ???
Shiro – “Well,whatever you are don't be a stranger.”
Farside22 – “Cool Down Lap”
Fuzzylogic - None

I don’t think Grapes ever responded but he’s likely Town so I’m not concerned.

Now the reveal – I fibbed when I said I could confirm a player as Town. I can’t. I knew it was a long-shot but I had to take the chance to catch scum claiming a relatively safe sounding event. The actual ability I used was to know what Events the scum team can use on the following Climax.

Scum can use an event called “Keeping It Together” during the next Climax. Requires Stress of less than -1. Can’t be triggered during a Season Finale. When triggered all alliances during that Climax fail to form and any player who would have retained an alliance from the previous phase now take one less vote to lynch in the next Episode. +3 Stress is added.

So we should plan out alliances for tomorrow with the understanding that they may not form if this Event is triggered. Also we absolutely need to be cognizant of the Hated modifier if the Event is triggered.

--

@Farside

– please summarize all your checks in one post (including Night you activated it and full results you got).

-

Ok now that I have some quality time to review the thread and respond this game is getting a data dump from me.

Things that are shaping my approach to today -

I do not think the Sir Cakez wagon was all Town. Just doesn’t stand to reason. So the group of Shiro, RR and Kraska are 99.99995% sure to contain at least 1 scum.

Fuzzy’s claim is enough for me to him to be put on the back-burner of any lynch talk. Kraska’s “oops, nevermind I can’t ally at Stress lower than -2” is a scummy reason for the alliance to have failed.

@Fuzzy

– can you please remind me of who you allied with?

Given my reveal above about the scum Event I don’t think Shiro is likely to be scum, specifically because of the facet of the Event which makes players with long lived Alliances Hated. The only thing that would change my view on this is if the last scum were literally Shiro and RR and they were lying about their Neighborhood.

Creature is still a good lynch in my book. I’m not rehashing all the reasons over again. I’ll add that his recent posting like 10355 looks like LAMIST busy-work and really adds nothing to game other than making him looks like he’s helping.

Kraska’s claim about being confirmed in 3-Player LYLO looks very much like a desperation fake-claim to me. I don’t think, given the SirCakez wagon, that he can be allowed to live long enough to potentially even get to a 3 Player LYLO which is not assured. 10404 is scum posting. As is 10410.

Have to review ShadowStep and see if I had a reason to think he wasn’t scum.

Right now my wagon preference runs like this Creature / Fuzzy > RR > Shadow > Shiro / farside

--

You clearly don't hold this belief given your Creature case among other things. So, at least one scum had to have bussed. The question isn't so much, "why would they want to do this?", so much as it is, "why did they do it?". Because we know they did.

You are missing the intent of my response – it was pretty illogical to post that vote-count and analyze that “Scum thought they were lynching their Traitor” when we know DGB was the Traitor and was in contact with the Main scum body via TWIE.

--

The question is, should I:
2) Go with the public opinion

You are going to be lynched 100% if you don’t follow the Town consensus so I’m not sure why you bothered to even list other options.

That is if you aren’t lynched today anyway.

Bc i think if i claim my situation will resolve itself bc scum cant afford to keep me alive. My abilities are dangerous for scum in late game

Does it include confirming yourself as town?

EVERYONE PLEASE REVIEW THIS

And this post looks very much like a partners slip based on Mafia PT communications. Note that Creature comes to absolutely the “correct” conclusion for Kraska’s claim before kraska makes it. Considering that role like Vengeful / Supersaint are just as deadly in endgame.

kraska77 can live to 3p LyLo, just wondering if scum has an ability to skip 3p LyLo.

And Creature immediately gives kraska an endgame pass based on the claim.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Creature / Fuzzy > RR > Shadow > Shiro / farside

Where's kraska?

Yeah, there was a typo which should have been obvious given I say I'm not insterested in lynching Fuzzy -

Should be Creature / kraska > RR > Shadow > Shiro / farside

[MagnaofIllusion]

Anyone else thrown off by MOI claim....... Kinda felt like was caught in a lie and was forced to confess........ I am not quite buying the whole I was trying to trap scum

@MOI
How did you think making such a claim would catch scum. ? Why lie about being to confirm town opposed to something else
You lied to us once how do we know you are not lying to us now

Don't bother. I'm not ever getting lynched and if you had any handle on the game you'd understand the multitude of reasons why.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD - I'll be V/LA from 4:30 EST today until Monday morning as usual.

@mastin

- Regardless of whether Skybird could or could not double-vote in the Beech-a-palooza event I think the DGB and TWIE flips tell us that from here on out lynching in the "Not Top" section of the playerbase isn't going to clear up the top section any further. Literally only a RR or farside flip as scum would clear anyone else to any degree. I don't think farside stands any shot of flipping scum and you seem to have ruled out RR similarly. So the Beach event is more or less tapped out until maybe 5 or 3 players are left best case IMO.

I'm leaning kraska over Creature now. Have anything I'm missing from prior days to help solidify that read for me?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Shadow_Step has no other non-factional abilities or Episode Events besides the ability to confirm this information.

"The Pearl here has exhibited an aptitude for engineering that I begrudgingly respect, but that doesn't explain the spontaneous singing, crying...
...singing while crying.

-Peridot,

Too Far

VOTECOUNT 4.01

TheWayItEnds (3):

Farside22, Creature, McMenno

Shadow_Step (1):

Almost50

Thefuzzylogic99 (1):

Shadow_Step

Not Voting (12):

Titus, Xkfyu, Shiro, Reasonably Rational, grapes, mastin2, Kraskaeaque, MagnaofIllusion, Thefuzzylogic99, SnarkySnowman, randomidget, TheWayItEnds

With 17 Alive, it takes 9 to Lynch.
Deadline

: (expired on 2016-10-30 15:00:00)

The Current Stress is -4, SLICE OF LIFE:

Back to back posts confirming that Shadow was Mod confirmed to be Vanilla before the end of Day 4 Exposition.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Random do what you need to do ...

I'm getting kinda frustrated with you .

[MagnaofIllusion]

Anyone still wants to test out if kraska can really IC herself in 3p LyLo?

No

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok catching up now …

MOD – can we vote as a game to force-replace Random? Frankly I’m kinda sick of everything being held up for him given he isn’t playing the game

Realistically if he wasn’t a Crystal Gem I’d be so tempted to power-lynch him right now. So frustrated.

And no – he hasn’t done the VERY SIMPLE thing he needs to do that should have taken him all of 5 seconds to do.

Also …

No More Kraksa votes until Random / Replacement gets his thing done.

About Alliances – they should be firmed up for tonight’s selections. I propose the Fuzzy be set up to ally with the scummiest living player each Night. If said player doesn’t activate an Alliance with Fuzzy (baring outside issues like the scum event I described or fuzzy flaking on the Alliance) they are lynched the next day no questions asked. This would make sure Fuzzy has access to his Vig shot as much as possible even if he doesn’t want to use it. Creature would be my suggestion for his Alliance mate tonight.

Also taking suggestions on who I should best Ally with tonight. Was thinking either Grapes or farside would be best but would not be opposed to fuzzy if the Town as a whole doesn’t like my fuzzy Alliance plan above.

@farside

re: 10560 – thanks!

--

What part of scum will have to kill me either tonight or tomorrow night is hard to understand I wonder

Probably the part where you being scum means that shot is never happening?

VOTE: kraska
Creature and tfl are town...can u not let shiro and shadow escape rope Tom? Rr is also worth looking at...look at the way they tiptoed around my lynch

Thinking the day can be ended early at Slice of Life (aka scum auto kill at Night) if people get lazy with the vote-count is see …

--

@MOI
So your answer to me is pretty much screw you I don't have to answer for something that might be consider scummy bc I wont be lynched. Heck I'm was not even scum reading you. Yes I was suspicious but I was not scum reading you. Now you made me a bit more suspicious. I don't think the question I asked were unreasonable..

Yes. Frankly I’m treating you with such kid gloves about your posting because I think you are very likely Town. I’m interested in lynching the last of the scum. I’m not interested in dealing with goofy theories and holding hands.

There is no (Steven) universe where I’m scum fuzzy. That’s been sorted out long, long ago. Spending any time getting me to justify my reasoning to you is a waste of effort on your part.

Is there a reason to think that there is a Pearl in the Game given the Fake Pearl account. This would mean that there is 4 mason and not 5 or did I miss something

Pearl is one of the two remaining Gems (either myself or Random).

--

I'm hoping--even praying--that's the case, because quite bluntly, I don't know what to do if I'm wrong. I've been trying to figure that out. People are actually agreeing with me in my scumhunting, and if I'm fully honest, that's actually freaking me out quite a lot. I'm not used to people thinking I'm right. In short, kraska-Creature is my assumed scumteam, but right now, I have no fallback plan. No worst-case scenario where one or both of them flip town. I'd prefer having that, but I don't, and everyone seemingly being more or less in agreement with my reads (save the lynchees, kraska and Creature)? Not exactly helping.

We haven’t clearly always been in agreement (see SnarkySnowman ) but I’m with you. I think that kraska – Creature makes a ton of sense. And if one (or god forbid both, but I don’t see that happening TBH) there is time to re-assess. Pesonally if kraska isn’t scum then Shiro / RR should go next even if Creature seems more likely scum simply for the Sir Cakez wagon. I’d honestly lean RR and I know you think they are Town.

I know Random and yourself aren’t scum and don’t think fuzzy, grapes, farside or Almost are either. That leaves a pretty small pool of candidates and looking back at Vote Counts, posts and events should make a PoE win possible even if kraska – Creature isn’t a lock.

[MagnaofIllusion]

wait NC is not dead???

No, she is. Unfortunately we have to release her and get her flip to move the Stress meter for the good of the Town. She was a great help in our PT with her.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Grapes

- want to Ally tonight?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Moi: good job. IMAGINE if you had done that when Titus and I were urging you to on D4. Titus would probably still be alive!

[MagnaofIllusion]

So Kraska is now at L-2 with Creature’s vote.

Alliances need to be formed up.

Grapes

– Want to ally?

If Grapes doesn’t is there anyone else who wants to swap information with me overnight?

--

Also, something to make sure of.
There's a slight chance the luchador thing vanillaized me (though V didn't indicate as much and recognized my submitted action), so I have to ask this:

Um, whut? I think this needs further explanation because the Luchador Event (which apparently got prematurely ended) if it is like the “Mini-Game” events the Gems could trigger (all of which seem like a general waste of time TBF) I don’t see the clear reasoning why it would render you Vanilla.

--

Anyways what were NCs results? I assume one was on me, which is why you acted like they had a guilty on me(

which is especially hilarious since Yume and mastin knew since D2 that I would have given a positive result to that particular check, and thus you should have known as well

), so did they check anyone else or use their negative power removal thing on anyone?

The bolded is interesting since I know not one iota about your role other than you started Beech-a-palooza. Once again you are assuming knowledge that I lack. Yume frankly is the world’s worst communicator and relayed practically nothing into the Crystal Gem PT. And it is not like mastin and I have some PT to discuss in.

Not Chara did not claim any other results or investigate targets.

I’m very curious what your ability to Negatively Impact players is given her results.

@mastin

– Since I know RR will withhold information about his role regardless of alignment why don’t you explain why RR should show up as a “guilty” to Not Chara’s investigation.

2.) We know your role, or at least we know what Titus was told your role is. So does Shiro. That's why Cerb said earlier this day phase that Shiro makes little sense as scum. Mastin I think realized the implication of that, but you seem to be ignoring it. Why?

What is the point about this again? Are you trying to clear yourself and Shiro for knowing my Role with WIFOM “Why would scum do that” logic?

All of that said: it would be a whole lot better if we could stop with this adversarial crap already. We can't change what has come before, but we can change what comes next.

The irony of posting a large swath of “adversarial” content and then saying “Oh, you should stop scum reading us and play nice” is not lost on me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Grapes – Want to ally?

Down.

--

The cool part is that you can also do the same thing. Varsoon is super cool about answering hypothetical questions to clarify mechanics as long as you ask them in such a way that he doesn't end up confirming or outing a claim someone has made as true/untrue. I invite you to go ahead and drop him a PM and ask if your ability (presuming we are correctly informed) would have triggered a positive on the beach-a-palooza investigative reward. You'll be told that yes it would.

Well what you have been told is not nearly the full picture. I understand what you are saying though.

P.S. - I'm asking you to re-assess your view on us rationally MoI. If you go back and set aside bias and still conclude that we're anywhere near likely to be scum, I would be very surprised (and you would be wrong, but that's a separate matter).

Let’s be fair – the pool for scum is every tightening and you still realistically can fit in that pool. I know you and Cerb think you have played uber Town and have worked your ass off (which in and of itself is Null frankly) but I’m not setting aside my suspicions as I have little reason to this close to endgame. Kraska flips scum and probably that suspicion is allayed (pending my review of the Beach event status).

Given I haven’t read Day 1-2 if there is some smoking gun in your ISO from that time-frame that you think should make me think “Aha, must be Town” feel free to direct me that way.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Alliances for tonight:

MoI and Grapes
RR and Randommidget
Farside and Fuzzy

Unpaired as far as Almost / Shiro / Creature / Mastin (unless I missed something)

I suggest that Almost and Shiro pair up and Mastin and Creature pair up.

--

Any reason why thi day is dragging after NC has been released and the stress is up?

Mainly because Drixx has stated he wanted time to get together with Cerb to process his thoughts I think.

--

Moi
How did you know that you were targeted

Well because the Event that went off is my Event and it triggering means I was targeted by a Nightkill.

So are you trying to buddy me...are you scum Kras? I don't trust that innocent act of yours

Most astute pick-up you have made today. Kraska’s sudden “I love Fuzzy” looks like last ditch “Hey, maybe I can drop some links before I die” scum WIFOM.

Are the gems going to let Kras flip or are they going to keep it hidden......

He’s being flipped. Maybe the only player I would consider (don’t know on Random’s end) bubbling after lynch at this point is mastin since he is confirmed but it would really depend on where the Stress meter lies.

--

Creature scum
Mastin 3p
Everyone else town

Ideally I would lynch creature over you but it ain't happening

Know what this post says to me? If kraska is for some reason Town then Shiro needs turbolynched tomorrow. Because there is something important in this post that says Shiro scum if kraska Town. Free internet cookies if you can guess what I see here …

[MagnaofIllusion]

Like if I want to be a 100% honest I would say that yea, I think Kraska will flip townthe reason I don't give much of a care is because, hey worse case scenario I will get lynched tommorow and then you guys will lynch Creature. We cannot really lose this one.I think

So guess who keeps assuming only 1 scum left which seems at odds with the assumptions most people are making? This guy above me.

Kraska is Town Shiro is probably scum inadvertently leaking his inside info right here.

I'm tempted to switch to shiro.
Just a note if I die and forget if Shiro is scum, rr is 100% his scum buddy.

Good input but I don't want a wagon shift.

VOTE: kraska

[MagnaofIllusion]

Moi: did you tell anyone you could dodge a shot?
If not lynch the fuck out of rr.

Every member of the gems knew. Who told who that information I can't possible know. I have told no-one specifically. Apparently Yume blabbed it all over the place ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Correct me if I am wrong but why are we talking Fuzzy shots tonight when per my understanding he needs to be in an alliance to shoot and will not be in an alliance until AFTER night ends with Farside.

I mean ... help a brother out ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

My wonder is why Fuzzy forgot since it is his role ... unless my understanding is not correct.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Tbh I want to see him.kill, Has he claimed any kills? I want fuzzy to draw blood and prove his vigginess.

He claimed Firebringer and no-one has countered him and there were two deaths that Night ...

So I think he has already.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOI are you sure that there is Garnet and Paerl left or is this a logical educated guess......I do think you said that that there was Pearl and Garnet left

How many times do I have to repeat - all the Crystal Gems saw the Role PMs for every other Gem. Xk even posted his once he joined the PT.

So I am 100% certain that one of myself and Random is Pearl and one is Garnet.

I so need Gammagooey's shrug shoulders emoji right now ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from today at 4:30pm EST til Monday morning for my usual weekend duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So need to double check a few things but unless anyone has a reason why the scum didn't kill last Night to share I'm inclined to lynch Creature today.

The Crystal Gems have no reason why there was no kill.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, I have an idea of who's scum, but I'm not sure if any of you will let me escape rope today.

Which, of course, doesn't stop you from explaining your ideas and reasoning. Which is the Town thing to do even if you think you are getting lynched today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, my rolecard never said I was roleblock-immune (nor the mod said I was when I asked).

Yup this is getting lynched today ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also - everyone should confirm that all submitted alliances went through as requested.

Grapes and I were successful.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Alliances –

MoI and Grapes
Shadowstep and ????

@farside

– can you go into more details about your roleblock on Creature? Could you blocking Creature be the reason for a lack of scum kill? Thanks.

--

Alliance was successful

Please confirm with whom.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Is there a mechanical reason for Shadow being town?

Not that I am aware of ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Beach Result Tracking

–

Rational: mastin (+1)

Skybird: mastin (+.5)

Almost: mastin (+1)

Mastin: self (+3)

Yume: mastin (+1)

Result – 7, known 6.5

Chara: self (+3)

Farside: Chara (+2)
Result - 5

Titus: self (+3)

Kraska: Titus (+1)

Xkfyu: Titus (+1)

Grapes: Titus (+1)
total: 6

Shiro: none

Snarky: none

DGB: none

Random: none

Fuzzy: none (didn't answer?)

TWIE: none

Creature: shadow step

Magna: voted Rational

Shadow step: Almost

Fire: Rational

McMenno: self

So I've colored all the flipped scum red and all the flipped Town, Crystal Gems and mastin (cleared by Yume) as blue. Don't like this? Do your own work.

The picture gets a little bit clearer. Unless you think grapes is scum then the Titus group is 100% clear. Which to me opens RR as a viable scum candidate given that I don't see farside as Threat to Earth scum for the many reasons I've already talked about. Scum has the manpower and coordination (TWIE and DGB in Alliance) to double up on the claimed mastin vote to cover both RR and Skybird. And would have had ample time to set up the play given it is RR's event.

Next want to look the SirCakez wagon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

SirCakez

(LYNCH):

Not Chara, mastin2

,

Obi-Wan Kenobi

,

McMenno

, grapes, Shiro,

Xkfyu

,

SnarkySnowman

,

Yume

,

Kraskaeaque

,

Klingoncelt

, Reasonably Rational

So we have three unflipped on the wagon.

Again - if grapes is Town then either Shiro and / or RR is scum unless you believe this is a 100% Town wagon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Someone needs to remind me if there is some game reason that Almost is clear.

Mastin I'm looking at you for this.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why are people so adamnt that there are two scum left opposed to my theory of 1 scum left ?

Because it can't hurt to be conservative when it comes to the number of scumbags left to kill. If we are wrong and only 1 is around then we have more breathing room than we are planning for.

Also there are two missing members of the Ruby Squad but that's just flavor.

Tell me - given your theory on only 1 scum left who do you think it is?

[MagnaofIllusion]

That said, can we please avoid squandering this? SU1 still bothers me and I don't want a repeat.

I'm going to say this politely as I can.

Stop referring to SU1 as if it meaningful to the game state at all.

No-one cares about how that game turned out but you. We all have games that we regret endings of in the past. Not one of those games is matters to this game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Unknowingly my ability when targeted blocks everything including nk by scum.
I had 13 points and today I have 15 points.
I know my creature block was successful.

For the record this is effectively a quasi-guilty on Creature due to the lack of scum Nightkill.

@Everyone

- please confirm in thread whether you have any reason why the scum Nightkill would not have occured. Unless someone else has a reason Creature WILL be the lynch today.

Shadow_Step - Claim indicates he should have none but need confirmation.
Almost50 - ???
Shiro - ???
Farside22 - Blocked Creature
Reasonably Rational (Cerberus v666 + Drixx) - ???
grapes - ???
mastin2 - ???
MagnaofIllusion - Has no reason
TheFuzzylogic99- ???
Creature - Unless counter-claims farside's result has no reason.
randomidget - Has no reason

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also I've briefly mentioned this to Grapes in our PT but I'd like to form a pool of "Must Die ASAP" players that most everyone agrees with. I think the best course of action is to use lynches and Fuzzy's Vig to clear that approved list ASAP as scum isn't going to be shooting in that group and taking out all the universally questionable players quickly I think pays dividends long term of scum is outside that group.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOI
while I respect your opinion ..I will not be chained down by the will of the masses. I do not feel it is the best way to go and can lead to be influenced by scum. I will take the consensus of the town into consideration but I feel like I should not be bound by it,

Ok well here is the deal.

The only reason you aren't a viable lynch option at this point is that I think you aren't scum due to the Firebringer kill. If you haven't noticed there are plenty of others who are happy to put you on the shortlist for rope. There is absolutely no reason at this stage of the game for you to not cooperate with a plan that the majority of the players agree with if you are Town. There is at most 2 scum left. The chances that the pool of players is significantly influenced by scum is minimal.

However there are scum reasons for you not to want to cooperate. So the fact that you even before a list is agreed on ou say "Imma do what I want" in the game-state as it is troubles me greatly. Enough so that I'll reverse my decision to protect you if you aren't going to work with everyone on this.

That's my line in the sand. Take it or leave it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Organized Alliance List

–

MoI and Grapes
Shadowstep and mastin
Random and RR
Farside and Fuzzy
Shiro and Almost50

This should be accurate. Please let me know if I have mistakes

Have a reason the Scum Nightkill did not occur List

–

Shadow_Step - Claim indicates he should have none but need confirmation.
Almost50 - ???
Shiro - ???
Farside22 - Blocked Creature
Reasonably Rational (Cerberus v666 + Drixx) – Has no reason
grapes - ???
mastin2 - ???
MagnaofIllusion - Has no reason
TheFuzzylogic99- Has no reason
Creature - Unless counter-claims farside's result has no reason.
randomidget - Has no reason

[MagnaofIllusion]

So back from V/LA …

I’d like to ally with RR for tomorrow if that is on the table.

My must kill ASAP list is short –

Creature – I’ve written enough on this subject that I think it should be clear why I want him hung. The fact that TWIE refused to vote him when TWIE’s life was on the line should be a pretty strong indication that he’s a good lynch. Unless you think TWIE is so incompetent that he would not vote a Townie to save his own skin.

Shiro – Underwhelming play and the SirCakez wagon.

Shadow – I’m not about to assume that his ability to prove he has no other innate abilities is Town when we have SO many other methods of proven alignment confirmation and scum clearly have factional abilities that Shadow could use as a Goon. Overall underwhelming play also.

That said …

VOTE: Creature

Also Creature being a Threat to Earth means his run of posts today along these lines ..

Again, better spare TFL today and tomorrow.

Means Fuzzy is almost certainty not scum. The amount of times he’s dropped this screams “Mine a mislynch with my doomed Day”.

--

Now for the more important and relevant question: Have you received the info I passed along and the questions? If so, can you get some answers relayed back to us please?

No. Had random not made it clear he can’t communicate that info to me until Climax? Frankly I would not be shocked if he hadn’t given how inactive he has been in our PT.

--

TWIE flipped his scum buddy in that hysterical fiction thing in order to get people town read him. Do you really think that's a reason to town read him?

Can you elaborate on how this applies to Fuzzy? I’m not sure I get what you are floating here.

--

Fuzzy claims vig, which I'm not buying,

Have an alternate explanation for Firebringer’s death?

--

Random or MOI
Can you explain what the process was for seeing each others roles. Sorry trying to figure things out.

Random is Mod confirmed by the Crystal Gem Factional PT to be a Crystal Gem. That ends all debate on the subject since this is not a Bastard game. And not just by us sharing our Role PMs – by Mod posting in the PT.

And there is little point to any further flavor claiming from us. One of us is Garnet. One of us is Pearl. We’ve already said this. No reason to specify who is who.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Have an alternate explanation for Firebringer’s death?

Scum wanted him dead?

Let’s discuss …

During Climax 3, Firebringer and Not Chara were both killed.
At this time, however, their role information will not be made public--the stress will not change as a result.
At the start of this Exposition phase, Skybird has been returned to the game, yet also has been killed due to the Event, "A Trap For Clods".
The Event "A Trap For Clods" has now fully resolved and is no longer ongoing.
Skybird was Eyeball, aligned with the Threats to Earth.
Due to this death, stress has been lowered by 2, towards Slice of Life.

1. Firebringer was not killed by an Event. Reference anytime someone dies due to an Event (as shown with Skybird above) and it is explicitly stated.

2. Not Chara and Firebringer both died that Night.

So we have a situation where two players were killed at Night from non-Event sources. No-one has claimed a Not Chara shot. Fuzzy has claimed a Vig shot on Firebringer that no-one has refuted.

Do you think scum have a non-Event manner of killing given they have several Event methods (Remote Detonation, the Cluster)? Do you think scum with a non-Event kill ability (even if one-shot) would waste it on Firebringer?

--

@MOI

You think TFL is town just because he shot FB.

Yup. Same questions to you that I just posed to Almost above.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I decided not to tell RR that MoI. I wasn't sure on RR town going into today and didn't want to bleed info.

No biggie Random. Frankly it really wasn't much of a secret as I'm sure I've mentioned it earlier in thread.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I keep seeing “Scum Vig” floated without addressing that scum already had additional kill abilities via Events. Why is this happening? Yes, a scum Vig is not impossible. Frankly the only way I think that would actually be in this game is as a 1-Shot. This is why I want Fuzzy to shoot one of Shiro / Shadow / Creature (those alive after today’s lynch) to confirm his shot was not only a one-off.

--

Would be funny if I escaped rope again.

It must be so liberating to be able to openly troll as scum …

--

@MoI: Sure, I don't think drixx will object. Tomorrows the finale, we can make three man alliances. Thoughts?

-Cerb

I’m pretty open. I can still funnel info to Random during the Day so I have no issues with him not being the third.

Do you know of why us choosing Mastin as our third would make sense (per Shadow at 11036)? If so then don’t tell me the reason but select Mastin as our third.

If not then I’d say any of Almost / Grapes / Fuzzy.

--

VOTE: TFL

I'll switch to Creature to secure a lynch but I'd rather lynch this.
He shoots MOI/random tonight we lose conf town and a lynch.

We aren’t lynching there today. So says mean old MoI. So either move your vote to Creature or likely face rope. Your choice.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I wouldn't object to A50, Shiro, or Random being privy to everything I have to say.

-Cerb

Well let’s make it Almost if he is agreeable. I don’t particularly want Shiro alive long term and Random makes sense getting info from others and eventually cycling it to me if we live that long.

@Almost

– agree with a RR / MoI / Almost alliance submission tonight?

--

Fine, I'm not gonna face the music end game if we just didn't lynch scum tfl cause lol not so reliable setup spec and he shot a lynch bait he can't be scum.

Well this post makes me think you are either being terrible Town or disheartened scum. Fuzzy does not have a pass to endgame. He currently only has a short-term pass to surviving until the Must Die pool is exterminated.

I honestly can’t tell which and don’t want to spend tons of time re-reading you when you make a great Vig shot.

--

I don't replace out that frequent (maybe just 1 in 5 games).

As an aside completely separate from the game -

Having a 1 in 5 replacement frequency is fucking terrible. It’s not something to be proud of.

I don’t know how many games I’ve played on MS. I estimate between 80 and 100 as a safe guess. I’ve been replaced in a whopping total of three game. Two when I had a major accident and was hospitalized for six months back in 11 or 12 (forget which). That’s it. And I’m not thrilled about those three.

--

take nothing for granite

As another aside – you either need to spend less time on TvTropes or proof-read your posts better. I did get a chuckle out of this either way so kudos.

--

Got it....... what if I miss tonight
I don't want to get lynched tomorrow bc I was pressured into making a shot that was poor. I only get 1 shot per season.
I will take the shot if yall really want but I rather wait till I get a better chance to hit my target

I don’t think you quite understand the situation. You are more likely to be lynched for not trying to shoot tonight than for shooting Town in the pool of Creature / Shadow / Shiro.

Think about the game-state. We are looking for 2 scum in a pool of unconfirmed players. Town gets to lynch 1 per day. Scum get the chance to kill 1 per Night. Right now the pool of players who are unconfirmed is larger than the pool of players who are confirmed. Sticking to a 1 to 1 exchange doesn’t necessarily mean Town is screwed but it does mean it isn’t leveraging its information well.

You killing one of Creature / Shiro / Shadow is very Pro-Town even if they are Town.

This creature lynch feels forced and apathetic as fuck.

Honestly given what you have posted in our PT I find this an odd response.

--

If I lived, I wouldn't let you get roped tomorrow, though, taking a look at the rest of the town, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended lynching mastin2.

Scum posting to a tee …

[MagnaofIllusion]

So on Alliances – unless he objects I want grapes with Shadow and Shiro for reasons grapes should understand.

That makes

Almost / Fuzzy / RR
Grapes / Shadow / Shiro

Leaving mastin, myself, random and farside out. I’d lean to a farside / myself / Random Alliance leaving mastin without an ally.

mastin and grapes

– these work for you?

I also don’t see the point of actively trying to get farside a third party win at this point if she is actively not looking for it. Frankly that’s making me look at RR again with skepticism.

--

Also ... how did I end up sorting alliances? There's a reason I avoided this all game. This is a pain in the arse.

No complaining when you basically just thrust yourself into the role ..

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI

You and random won't die, ever.

Scum will waste a turn if they kill you since they can endgame both of you.

Given scum took a crack at me two Nights ago I find this logic a little lacking ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna explain why you sticking me in an alliance with 2 scumfucks.

Go to our PT - I've given the reason there.

And go there anyway there's an ISO I want you to look at.

UNVOTE: Creature

Not ready for the day to end yet.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Fuzzy

– please confirm you are not shooting tonight per RR’s plan.

So I’m going to be submitting farside and Random tonight as Alliance options unless grapes gets back to be about disagreeing with my PT reasons for allying him with Shiro and Shadow.

--

He does have reasons/ I'm just clarifying some stuff on them to confirm the logic but he def has some good points.

Please make sure you dump EVERYTHING into the PT tonight as soon as possible so I can mull it over.

--

She later clarified and said she misunderstood her role abilities and that she in fact COULD block factional kills, and she announced that she roleblocked YOU. That's why MoI asked if anyone else could explain the lack of kill, because in the absence of any other explanation, Farside handed us a guilty on YOU. I mean ... apart from the fact that you have long since been scum trolling us with your posts, why did you think you are eating rope today?

I’d like to get some clarification on this. My understanding is that farside is claiming her blocking ability cannot block the scum factional kill but her Ascetic ability can.

@farside

– please positively confirm my understanding is correct or give me the specifics that I am lacking.

You don't see the point? She is caught in at least one outright lie at this point. The previously unclaimed BP ... do you really buy that she "misunderstood"? According to the established way she earns points, in her own words, she should get points equal to alliance size, including herself. That means she can be tested and we can know for sure tomorrow at essentially day start (since Varsoon allows for action queueing) whether or not she is mostly harmless (exits the game with a personal win regardless of the overall outcome) or caught in a web of lies.

Oh I don’t disagree with you on this. I do want to go through her ISO and specifically track what can be tracked on her claims myself.

My big issue is that lynching her means we are forgoing lynching Mafia. Regardless of how botched her claim is the one element that I can rely on 100% is her ability to massively boost her vote total. That was proven with the Snarky Snowman lynch. And as I’ve said there is no path to me for her abilities to be in the game as a Mafia or possible-to-ally with Mafia role after all the other vote manipulation powers Mafia members (Skybird and DGB) had.

--

Yea I keep changing my mind. Creature's only really a good lynch in my mind because essentially the entire game thinks he's scum but calling out the thread on how forced the lynch actually is isn't odd it's the fact of the matter. I mean let's be fair people are trying to push it like there's a guilty on him when farside isn't even voting creature to my memory.

No let’s be fair about that – after what I understand to be farside’s explanation that part of the push on Creature has been abandoned. I could probably quote my many posts about how Creature makes sense as a Cakez and Skybird partner. About how his claimed actions don’t make sense from many, many different standpoints.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 4:30 pm EDT today until Monday morning as per usual.

--

Far,is my town flip the only way for you to realise the truth D:

What have you done this game that would justify anyone having a read that wouldn’t require you flipping and Mod confirmed to convince them you are Town again?

--

@MoI: My concern with farside is the possibility of a 3p win con that does not coexist with that of town. Removal of farside BEFORE the last scum is gone is probably safest, based on my own experience with such roles in Varsoon games. I understand that it's not an actual groupscum death, but I'm quite sure she counts as a "threat", and is the one we know the least about.

Ok, I understand where you are going with that.

--

I think scum rr is upset the kill didn't go through on me.

I maybe bias.

Moi thoughts?

I think that’s not an unreasonable position for you to have regardless of whether RR’s stance has merit.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA …

At this point I think voting Creature is the course I have to take. I can’t see me getting past some of the biggest hold-ups I have on his slot – his treatment of Cakez, the flaws in the timing and composition of his claim, the fact that TWIE didn’t vote him when he was a competing wagon the day TWIE died.

If I’m wrong I’m wrong but it is a hurdle I need cleared …

VOTE: Creature

Alliances

–

RR / Almost / Fuzzy
MoI / farside / random
Grapes / Shiro / Shadow (sorry grapes)

Mastin all alone.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I doubt I'll immediatelly flip, so don't make actions oriented towards preflip associations and such. It's better to be unprepared against one scum than unprepared against two scum.

You will not flip until basically end of Night. That's how it works. I've already PMed Varsoon and said "Flip him" but I've done that on other lynches and the delay is still there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Okay, but still be ready incase I flip town.

In case you flip Town?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fuzzy why didn't you shoot Shadow last Night? I want fully explained reasoning from you given that you had to have know No Ruby kill was going to happen.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You know this is trolling right Fuzzy?

No way he mistook a PT for the main thread. This is WIFOMing from scum and should be ignored.

In fact you should unvote to give everyone a chance to check in.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So now that I have a few more moments I have some time to post my thoughts.

I did indeed bubble Shiro last Night. I assumed given the lack of scum Nightkill that I prepared that RR’s fears about today being LYLO thanks to a scum kill would be diminished and Fuzzy would hit Shadow to eliminate the full complement of Creature / Shiro / Shadow so if the game didn’t end we could start looking among the less usual suspects.

Shiro can be released as necessary but I’m really loathe to do so given that I’d want him lynched anyway if he is released. I have confirmed that his bubbled status counts as him being dead for purposes of Town winning via elimination of all the Threats to Earth.

Grapes is literally the last of Almost / Grapes / RR I would want vigged. Almost or RR would be preferable to me if the game doesn’t outright end on a Shadow lynch.

@RR

– The info dropped by Random overnight was … underwhelming. Literally just two post with about 50-60 total words. If you intended more to be provided … well … it didn’t happen.

Random and I are Allying tonight. We have our reason for this.

--

I gave it in the PT.......there is nothing more to it,

ProTip – I can’t see that PT so this response is meaningless. Explain to those of us

NOT

in your PT why you didn’t shoot your number 1 scum suspect knowing that you get another Vig today.

Anyways Shadow fake comments means that Grapes is very likely not scun..thus I wont vig Grapes tonight

No, grapes is not cleared by the trolling at all. That shadow came in trolling indicates that he knew he was boned so nothing he says today should be attempted to be parsed as it is all WIFOM. I think grapes is less likely scum than either of Almost or RR based on my conversations with him in our PT. Is that information absolutely solid? No he could have been lying to me but what he chose to tell me makes little sense as it would not let him live to LYLO.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I will be V/LA starting at 3pm EDT today until Monday morning as normal. Also activity today may be spotty as I have some unforeseen complications to my regular schedule.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Phone post to say no we are lynching Shadow today for certain.

When I get to a computer I will explain why.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I simply don't want a repeat of a scenario like that. Town has this game locked down, and the only way we lose is through some screwy crap like that. Removing Farside is BY FAR the safest way to prevent anything similar from happening in this game.

The odds of Fuzzy being able to actually kill farside with a Vig shot are pretty much as close to zero as you can get given the Mafia factional kill appears to have failed on them.

Just an FYI.

[MagnaofIllusion]

NO WE ARE LYNCHING SHADOW PERIOD.

[MagnaofIllusion]

A few minutes at a keyboard so I want to clearly explain why Almost's posting is at best very very bad and also reasonable as Shadow partner trying a Hail Mary.

Shadow has claimed scum directly. No ifs, ands, or buts. You do not lynch someone else besides the claimed scum today. Period. The fact that Almost is trying to spin some sort of "3 scum left" scenario to justify not lynching the scum in hand after Fuzzy has indicated he'd likely shoot Almost over RR is suspect. The attempts to cast doubt on whether Fuzzy shot Fire is also very very scummy. If anyone else was the source of that kill they would have counter-claimed long ago. None of the gems past or present made that shot. And none of the Town who has flipped has shown a Vig ability.

Shadow is the lynch today. If the game doesn't actually end with his lynch odds are overwhelming that Shiro is Town and will be unbubbled. Fuzzy shoots amoung Almost / RR / Grapes ( I overwhelmingly suggest Almost at this point given his reaction ).

Again - I'm Allying with Random tonight. The remaining Alliances need to be worked out before Shadow is hammered.

--

Note to myself - go back to look at the Creature versus TWIE day to look at the wagons.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also for kicks check out Shadow's posting history. He is active all over site but not here. Clearly scum hoping that if he just shuts up maybe someone will stick their foot in their mouth and he might escape rope.

Or that a partner might save him today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I really don't get why you think it is better to use other resources aside from the lynch to take care of scum Almost.

I mean whatever scenario you spin today fact remains that lynching scum who have gone Surrender Cobra in thread is the only logical course of action. Any other resources you think should be used to neutralize him overnight instead are better put to getting other possible scum.

This isn't a hard call and that you pretend it is makes me really doubt you are Town.

Also you keep forgetting Mastin in these crackpot OMG Town loses tonight posts.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also maybe think about explaining where the scum kill went the only reason that explains the lack of kill is scum targeted farside if farside is scum.

That would be great ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

So back from V/LA.

This section is devoted to Almost.

The biggest concern I have is that your “3 scum are alive” panic position is that you think the three scum are Shadow – kraska – farside. I think you specifically have avoided acknowledging my position on farside so I will restate it.

There is no real way that farside is a 3rd party who can join scum with the powers that have been proven in thread. Her ability to mass vote (up to half the needed lynch threshold) if it were to be combined with Skybird’s Double Vote and DGB’s ability to effectively Double Vote would be so powerful that Town basically could not compete. Hell – at a lynch threshold of 8 votes to lynch (15 or 14 alive) it would allow all three to strongarm a lynch. 3 players only needed to get a lynch with 14 to 15 alive? That’s a ludicrous amount of vote power in the hands of scum. Makes much more sense as a balance for scum’s voting powers or as a survival ability for a 3rd party.

Furthermore the only player who makes sense as a Leftover who could join with scum (thus making 7 total scum) is Lapis. And farside isn’t Lapis .. that much I’m sure of. I’ve parsed out who Lapis is.

So all of your plans are predicated on a 3 person team that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

I'd like to emphasize on this statement. Scum!TFL could NOT have shot anyone last night because of the ongoing event. I would lynch him over conf.Scum!Shadow at this point (and I DO have a reason for it too).

Since this has been proven wrong it looks very much like desperation …

So, while Shadow IS confirmed Scum, TFL will have a GUARANTEED SHOT tonight. (Note that the event's effect ends by today's Exposition, so the Scum kill is not prevented by it anymore on the Climax, while the effect from the alliance with me guarantees the shot WILL go through).

Any worries about TFL having a shot tonight stem from TFL as scum. I have yet to see anything that in my mind solidifies that nearly enough to consider not lynching claimed scum.

I beg to differ here. Otherwise, what was the point from activating that event (I trust either you or MOI activated it, and I trust it was for an elaborate reason).

What elaborate reason do you think needs to exist for me (it was me, btw) to activate an event that blocks the Mafia kill and prevents them from triggering events until Climax tonight?

BTW – I disagree with the conclusion of 11339 pretty strongly. Given how mechanically complex this game is to decide outright that “This means he’s not reading and is scum” is such a leap I am having a hard time seeing why you think that. I don’t believe for a second your Alliance ability as mentioned has to mean what you think it means and furthermore that no other abilities in the game could counter it.

Also don’t see any reason for your certainty in 11341 that there are three scum alive.

Did you read the part about BUBBLING Shadow?

Why are you assuming that I (and Random), the player who controls that ability, doesn’t know more about how it works than you? Because you don’t and every part of your posting that is pinned to the fact you do is suspect to me.

Contradictions contradictions. Scum caught are being desperate to the limit, bu the town is so adamant to throw away a game we already have in hand.

This ranges into an Appeal to Fear given that Town by definition isn’t trying to throw away the game by lynching someone you admit is scum …

Finally I find it suspect that Almost appears to have dodged answering my question in 11373.

--

Can you explain your position regarding farside, given that you said yesterday that you understood my concerns?

My position is that worst case farside is 3rd party who has a completely independent wincon from scum. And as long as we keep the Mafia’s numbers low she can’t decide to throw in with them for fear of being turbo lynched the next day. I don’t see the point of actively fueling her point totals (which was your plan yesterday IIRC) when you fear that she could win the whole things ala whatever game it was where a 3rd party player did such.

MoI, A50 says you should be aware of this as well?

Yeah, our PT mentions that. I don’t think it is really relevant to my reads as such.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

As for alliances.
Moi/random
Tfl/far
Grapes/mastin
Rr/a50

Does anyone object to these? If so now is the time to say your piece. I'm going to be voting Shadow soon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Maybe that's why the scum team had limited/conditional kills all through the game?

Um how do you know scum have "limited or conditional kills" again? Given the Cluster and Detonation Events that occured on top of normal Mafia kills I would certainly not characterize the scum team's kill options as limited.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Furthermore the only player who makes sense as a Leftover who could join with scum (thus making 7 total scum) is Lapis. And farside isn’t Lapis .. that much I’m sure of. I’ve parsed out who Lapis is.

So. now we're flavour speccing too?

Yup. Show me any reason to not? I know who Lapis is. Fact. I know it is not Farside. Fact. Xk was Peridot who joined with Town. Fact. The only person with 3 flipped Rubies and Traitor Jasper who makes any sense as possibly joining with them is Lapis. Very reasonable conclusion.

Frankly this sort of response is what I expect from scum. Ignore things with handwaving (flavor spec-ing in this case) when they undermine the position you have taken.

Still waiting to see where that missing kill went. Or is that what you are trying to accomplish with your "limited kill" comment?

[MagnaofIllusion]

At this point I am ready for the Day to end.

Shadow is being lynched. I don’t care about potentialities or conjectures. He claimed scum in thread. He dies. End of story.

Fuzzy can shoot whoever he wants tonight. I would suggest Almost50 but if he feels that strongly about RR or Farside or Grapes he can go there. He goes outside that pool and I’m lynching him tomorrow regardless. And Fuzzy – you absolutely do need to shoot tonight.

If RR is around I’ll coordinate a hammer in thread with them and RR doing the duty.

Revised Alliances

–

MoI / Random
Fuzzy / RR
Grapes / Mastin
A50 / farside

--

I can never fail at 3+ or season Finale........ it specified in my PM

You do remember tonight is a Season Finale, right?

--

@MoI: Can you explain why we wouldn't shoot Farside tonight then, using fuzzys empowered shot? It's not a matter of her throwing in with scum for vote power, it's a matter of her potentially just winning.

At this point I’m not going to veto it. I’d prefer Almost as I am basically 100% sure that farside is not Mafia and not 100% sure that they are “Overthrow the Town” 3rd party but I’m not dead-set against it as we can always lynch Almost tomorrow if we even make it there.

--

The last Varsoon game I was in it took a SINGLE PLAYER (who controlled a dummy slot) to single handedly end the game with 11 players alive. So, if ONE can do it with 11 alive I think it absolutely possible for 3 to do it with 15 alive.

This sort of paranoia floating already was handled days ago. Again – the amount of flack Varsoon got after Bloodborne about how that turned out is exactly why I very much doubt farside can actively join with scum. Feel free to disagree but I’m not changing my mind on that.

Just THAT. Prevent the kill and catch someone who claimed to be a Town vig choosing to give a pass on an shot that was expiring and getting refunded today.

I exclaimed long ago about my own ability, and Varsoon said it gets refunded at the start of the Season Finale. However, being a 1-shot ability I could not have 2 shots at the same time. In other words I had to use my 1st shot on N3 because it would have expired at the start of Exposition 4, so that I only have 1-shot at the start of E4 (Season Finale 1). That's why I declared I had "nothing to forfeit" and opted to ally with RR on E3, so the damage to town would be minimized (if I recall correct RR had nothing to forfeit as well, so the bonus point from both alliance members willingly opting not to use an active ability wasn't there to begin with).

My point is "I thought" that was some clever trick you pulled out of your sleeve to verify whether TFL was Town Vig or not. Obviously, I was dead wrong.

Given that the Event was announced before Night I find it hard to believe you thought somehow it was a tricky trap. Hypo-scum TFL knows this. What does Fuzzy stand to gain from not using a shot you claim (and he also claimed) would be refunded in today’s climax? You are basically saying he’s scum because his team was already screwed out of their normal Nightkill and he actively chose to pass on killing a Town player when that shot is effectively lost (due to the refund mechanic). Which makes absolutely no sense. Scum Fuzzy absolutely shoots whatever Town he can realistically and says “See, I’m a proven Vig”. I mean heck there is a plausible scenario out there that supports that as a possibility but you haven't even looked that way which is why I find your Fuzzy = scum case to be so weak. It doesn't look like you are actually trying to solve the game but instead are grasping at straws.

This is really a BRILIANT stance. I'm amazed. So a MOD CONFIRMED FACT isn't really relevant, but setup speculation is the way to go. I should remember that.

What part of your Mod Confirmed ability makes any difference to whether you are scum or not? I’m very curious why you think it does.

Because that's how the game went. I didn't see a regular NK every night. Event kills ARE conditional kills. The Cluster for instance could have been stopped with more points or could've been more damaging if it wasn't somehow contained. That C.O.N.D.I.T.I.O.N.A.L in my book.

Let’s discuss this –

Night 1 – no kill
Night 2 – Klingoncelt killed
Night 3 – Not Chara and Firebringer killed
Night 4 – Titus killed
Night 5 – no kill
Night 6 – no kill
Night 7 – no kill

So on the face your statement appears reasonable. Yet specifically Night 5 and Night 7 I have stated I was the reason for the lack of kills (Night 5 protection and Night 7 the Event). So that’s another two Nights with scum kills accounted for. That simply leaves Night 1 and Night 6. Both have reasonable explanations (grapes protected by Not Chara N1, farside shot Night 6). And you are Townreading Grapes and Not Chara’s flip and testimony in the bubble PT is pretty strong evidence. So the only Night you might consider refuting as not reasonable is Night 6.

So even then – kills on 6 of 7 Nights hardly looks conditional to me.

Which is why this argument reeks of desperate scum from my point of view.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also looking through Almost and my PT there are some things I want to bring to everyone’s attention regarding relations to scum.

Almost beings the PT (which was during the “blind second lynch” event that resulted in Snarky not being flipped) saying that Shadow was the best choice for that lynch because he was playing to his scum meta.

I responded to this by saying that Shadow might be a “suboptimal choice” as at this point both Xk and I were under the assumption he might get a second shot at “Trap for Clods” and use it on Shadow.

In the sixth post he reiterates his strongest scum reads are the four of Shadow / TWIE / Creature / Fuzzy.

Later at 19 he says that he thinks that Xk should trap both Creature and Shadow and then decide which, if any, to kill later.

The switch in the PT starts at this point.

At 24 he says that he has deduced at, at most, only 1 of Shaddow / TWIE / Creature can be scum.

Then comes his final reads lists before the PT is locked. Now his reads are as follows:

TWIE is “Hard Town” for meta reasons.

Shadow is “Null” because of “not enough posts and not enough experience with him”

I’m kicking myself for not seeing the Cognitive Dissonance between the start of the PT and the end.

How can Shadow have been the best choice for lynch via “playing to his scum meta” when later he is Null because Almost “doesn’t have enough experience in reading him”?

The answer is – he can’t if he’s Town. The “Let’s Vote for Shadow in the blind lynch” looks very much like safe distancing since he knows he isn’t really going to vote for Shadow.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Far get the rope today and Shadow gets the bullet tonight.

No.

VOTE: Shadow

At this point I don't even care if RR gets the hammer or not since neither head is around.

@Random

- if you see this anytime soon please come in and hammer if RR hasn't already.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So today the lynch is between Almost50, RR and Fuzzy. No other lynches will be acceptable.

First order of business ..

MOD - Unbubble Shiro please

.



I do not think there are 2 scum remaining and per Varsoon Shiro being bubbled when Shadow was lynched would end the game.

Ok gentlemen time to put together a case for why you shouldn't eat rope today. Besides general arguments please address the following.

RR

- Sell me on your stupid "farside will lose for the town" stance shouldn't warrant your rope today. Also explain to me why grapes is more likely to be scum on the SirCakez wagon than you (or alternately why it is an all Town wagon which I don't buy).

Almost50

- If you are Town sell me on why you were so sure a team of Fuzzy / Farside / Shadow and that Shadow should not have been lynched given Farside flipped Town.

Fuzzy

- So sell me that you aren't scum given there was only 1 Nightkill last Night and it was on Town and the one player neither Mastin or I wanted shot.

Worst argument earns my vote and me working to get Random and Mastin on board with me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD - As usual I am V/LA til Monday morning.

I hate when timing conspires to rob me of activity early in the day. But then I do get to see who of RR / Almost / Fuzzy really shows Town perspective.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So here is where I am with players and what I think about them –

Mastin and Random – I know Random is Crystal Gem and thus confirmed not-Scum to me. Yume says that Mastin is Confirmed Town via their PT so Mastin is confirmed not-Scum to me. So both are off the board.

Fuzzy – despite the pants-on-head shot I think the Farside shot confirms Fuzzy as not scum. I was not offered the chance to bubble Farside (similar to other unblockable kills like Yume and Skybird). Thus the kill on confirmed Town Farside was not the scum factional kill (which to my understanding should not be affected by Almost’s “your abilities can’t fail” Alliance ability). But a quick Mod question should clear that up for certain.

@MOD – the Mafia factional kill does not count as a player ability for purposes of Almost’s Alliance ability to make alliance members’ abilities always succeed correct?

Unless Varsoon refutes this Fuzzy isn’t getting lynched.

Shiro – The only way Shiro is scum is if there is a second living scum. That player HAS to be a Leftover who could join the Mafia team. So until the point that a Leftover flips with Mafia affiliation Shiro is Town.

Grapes – Speaking of Leftovers – Grapes is the only player that could be. He basically claimed Lapis to me in our PT. Lapis does make thematic sense as scum who could join the scum team in a passive way. And the lack of scum kill last Night may indicate that Lapis lacks the ability to make the scum factional kill. I’m more considering this based of 11540 as an answer to “why do you think there are two scum left”. Also the AtE and insults in 11573 and 11574 are pretty bad.

Almost50 – Almost coming into the day was my first choice for lynch given the way yesterday played out. His scum team from yesterday (Fuzzy / Shadow / Farside) is bused with Farside’s flip and the fact he was working his tail off to prevent a lynch on scum Shadow (which would probably have fallen on farside who is confirmed Town) is very suspect. Today his theory shifts to Shiro / Grapes without even batting an eye about how poorly his play yesterday reflects on his possible alignment to any outsiders.

Reasonably Rational (Cerberus v666 + Drixx) – I’ve said over and over I suspect RR. I agree with Mastin that they appear to have prioritized pushing suspected 3rd Parties over scum at least since I replaced in. And their reaction to being suspected (early on with me was what triggered this for me) still sits in my gut as more scum motivated play than Town. Of course they both could be just that egotistical. I don’t have really any direct experience with either head to know for certain. Also the Sir Cakez wagon lacks scum votes which reflects poorly on their slot (but less poorly with the possibility of grapes / Shiro).

@Fuzzy

– why are you talking about shooting tonight? My understanding is that ability was a single shot that was refunded on Season Finale. Based on what everyone has said about that mechanic your shot from last Night should NOT have been refunded. Am I incorrect on any of these points?

--

Is Grapes Lapis......and did she tell you that or do you have proof she is???????'

I asked grapes in our PT and he confirmed. Given that is the only flavor that stands any chance of being a recruitable Leftover I see no reason for him to lie about it.

--

Either that or lynch ME, and then I will get to call you names at my own will in the dead thread. (This is @ Mastina and MoI, who still can't read. Who THE FUCK said Shadow should not be lynched bc farside flipped green?? After the fiasco of Exposition 8 and you literally not being able to comprehend a single word of our PT you come back here and AGAIN misrep what I said. You should pursue a career in politics, I tell you. Only a politician can live with so much false propaganda.)

You really aren’t in a position to make threats Almost. There are three confirmed Town who will do what we collectively think is best and this little temper tantrum matters not a bit.

So clarify for me again – is Fuzzy scum to you now? Given your “Shiro / Grapes” stance it does not appear to be the case. If not then the only fiasco for Expo 8 was you trying to not get scum Shadow lynched because you were fearful of a “Scum Unblockable Vig”.

Btw, MoI has yet to apologize or even comment on my response to his FALSE, SILLY & STUPID case against me towards the end of the previous Exposition phase.

Yup I haven’t. So what? Frankly I will eventually go back and look at your comments but that’s not my priority right this second. I’m more interested in lynching Mafia scum than making your ego feel better if you end up being Town. Cavalier attitude I know but my position in the game dictates that right now.

It took Varsoon a whole day to get back to me with a result to begin with, so no I didn't bother asking him what it meant.

If you are Town this is a stupid reason not to ask for clarification BTW.

--

It turns out our concerns were just paranoia, but they were absolutely justified.

No, actually the flip proves that the paranoia was absolutely not justified. But at this stage I know you aren’t going to ever see that if you aren’t scum. And if you are scum no reason for you to say it wasn’t justified.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOI: A50's ability said any abilities could not fail. It did not specify whether that excluded factional abilities, and based on the verbiage used by the role PM's we've seen, I assume that means factional abilities were also empowered.

That's a pretty bad assumption that makes me wonder why you would just blindly assume such as opposed to asking like I did.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Am I the only one here that wants ftl dead?

Yes.

It's not happening.

Your reads on Grapes and RR should come in your next post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOI: A50's ability said any abilities could not fail. It did not specify whether that excluded factional abilities, and based on the verbiage used by the role PM's we've seen, I assume that means factional abilities were also empowered.

That's a pretty bad assumption that makes me wonder why you would just blindly assume such as opposed to asking like I did.

Because I don't have any factional abilities, and fuzzy had already demonstrated a claimed vig earlier in the game, and there was only one scum kill, so it's actually IRRELEVANT, because 1) If fuzzy's scum, and didn't have an additional shot to use, then we KNOW it was empowered because it worked on farside last night, and 2) If fuzzy's scum, and DID have an additional shot to use(and when I say additional shot, I mean a personal shot, rather than a factional one), then he used the one that A50's power would work on.

I'm confused by why you believe it actually matters? There was only one kill last night, when Fuzzy claimed he would vig, and the death was on the target he told A50 and myself that he would be targeting(which, btw, he didn't tell us until AFTER the deadline for action submission had passed iirc(I'll double check this)).

That means one of three things happened.

1) Fuzzy is scum, and could not use both his vig shot and his factional kill
2) Scum CHOSE to skip the kill.
3) The scum kill failed.

If nobody expresses a reason for the scum kill to have failed, then 2 is most likely. If 2 occurred, it's MEANINGLESS, because A50 had already claimed, in thread, that he was going to be tracking last night. ANYONE in this game is smart enough to realize that as long as fuzzy didn't shoot them(which they obviously couldn't control unless they had an empowered roleblock or something), holding their shot would mean the kill he made would cause the game to go to a 4 man or 6 man mylo, as opposed to a 3 man or 5 man lylo...that is, in short that their kill that night would be a risk in exchange for sculpting the lylo playing field.

I'll ask Varsoon, to make sure(because you're right, I should have asked since I have access to a PT showing me what that effect was, so he can tell me in private whether or not it would affect a factional ability), but your chasing your tail about something that I'm pretty sure is irrelevant.

-Cerb

For part of the supposedly super-savvy Hydra on mechanics the fact that you think it doesn’t matter is damn odd given that you endorse the “2 scum left” hypothesis. Especially since you are ignoring the possibility that two scum means there is by default a Leftover who could have joined the Mafia.

Which means that a fourth possibility exists which explains the lack of two kills last Night –

1. The Leftover cannot make the Mafia scum faction kill and Shiro was bubbled.

Especially since you voting Grapes who basically claimed the only possible Leftover role.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Fuzzy – why are you talking about shooting tonight? My understanding is that ability was a single shot that was refunded on Season Finale. Based on what everyone has said about that mechanic your shot from last Night should NOT have been refunded. Am I incorrect on any of these points?

Fuzzy you really need to address this ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Grapes

- why have you not used your ability that you claimed to me in the PT on either Season Finale?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I got confirmation from Varsoon that the Mafia factional kill would qualify as an ability for Almost’s Alliance boosting ability during Season Finales. This makes me take Almost off the table as a lynch given that as scum he would certainly want to put a member of his scum team into Season Finale alliances to make their Nightkill unblockable. And he can’t be a partner with either Fuzzy or RR to my mind.

So seeing that information that leaves the lack of Nightkill yesterday to among the following –

1. Fuzzy is scum and can’t both Vig and Mafia kill the same Night.
2. the Mafia no-killed to frame Fuzzy.
3. the Mafia tried to take a shot at myself / Random despite the public announcement of our commute
4. the Mafia also killed farside.
5. Grapes is a Leftover who joined the Mafia and can’t make the faction kill and Shiro was bubbled overnight.

There is no real way that I can see to parse which of these is correct.

I do think that I’m unlikely to think 1 is the case regardless. It has been established that Fuzzy has an additional Kill with the uncontested Fire kill. His choice of kill last Night if he was scum was completely suboptimal for having a chance to win the game from a Dayplay standpoint. He chose to go against Mastin and myself’s wishes when he had to know that not killing either RR or Almost could very well result in a lynch on him today. And clearly even if he has a partner they can’t make the kill themselves (which leaves only Grapes / Shiro as possibilities in my mind). So him choosing to side with RR / Almost in killing Farside does make sense from a general scum standpoint but doesn’t make sense from a survivalist standpoint.

So add Almost and Fuzzy to my “Not Lynching Today” pool. What leaves grapes / RR / Shiro.

--

So, if A50 is scum, NOT ONLY did the scum team attempt to ally with Xkfyu TWICE after learning his ENTIRE ROLE, AND THAT ALLYING WITH HIM PUT THEM AT RISK, but they PUT THE SLOT THAT HAD LESS SUSPICION AND A STRONGER ROLE AT RISK.

I get that you are pushing this so hard because you want the logic to extend to yourself also but the big hole in this theory is that Skybird having less suspicion means that the odds of XK trying to kill him as opposed to Shadow are much lower, right? I had to convince Xk to fire that ability on Skybird in the Gems PT. It certainly wasn’t a certainty which makes it not outside the realm of possibility that Skybird thought they could save their partner by substituting themselves with Shadow’s slot in the alliance even if they did know of the power.

Likewise there are reasons outside “Preventing Xk from maybe using an ability on non-so-suspected Skybird” that scum would decide to kill Yume when they did and your constant “why would scum do that” looks like you are handwaving those possibilities.

I also don’t like that you keep harping on the “I can make sure that my hammer vote prevents escape of scum” ability as confirming you as Town now that we have confirmation that farside was Town.

I'm not the setup/mod genius you are, but I know enough to know that the amount of slots who could never be mislynched in this game is too high for there to be only one scum left and that's the only threat.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the entire Crystal Gems faction could be endgamed even if were 5 players strong simply by scum killing all the Town players in this analysis. Why?

Also, our plan that I spent two days pushing was to lynch Farside and have you shoot Shadow

Also you understand that this sort of statement makes me want to insta-vote you, correct? Because that is the definition of a scum-beneficial plan and no amount of “I’m justified in my paranoia” makes that fact go away.

--

Yeah that's not what you said so stop fucking pretending it was.

You multiple times warned of a THIRD PARTY ENDGAME happening. You MULTIPLE TIMES told us, "farside's role will allow her to endgame everyone alive by allowing her to reach the points needed". This was the appeal to fear you were using.

Not once. Not ONCE. Did you use "in mylo she'll achieve her win and scum will endgame". Which is still an appeal to fear by the way. Just not the one you were employing. Inconsistency, and still doesn't change the original problem even if not

Actually I want to see RR’s response to this.

This is, one, a literal fucking scumclaim because trust telling is by definition something which would mean grapes is town,

Um … not quite if the player was willing to bust the Trust Tell for a game they’ve made a massive investment in.

But it is worth noting that what Grapes said was no-where near a Trust tell.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Convinient isnt it ?

You know because he cannot both use his kill and the faction kill.

1. How do you know that?
2. Are you arguing he never had a Vig Kill?

He had no choice, farside was not mislynchable and I was bubbled. He had to kill farside because every other option was mislynchable. RR,Grapes,Almost.
None of them had mastin shouting that nobody should dare lynch them from the start of the game. You think he had any chance of ever lynching her over himself? Had he killed RR or grapes (Both lynch targets because of you and mastins shouting) He would be left closer in a pool of him getting death.

Why would you say farside was not mislynchable? Certainly the minute mastin or I left the thread half the strong defenders of farside are gone. Clearly both A50 and RR were into lynching her. And random had expressed suspicion of farside in PT posts.

--

Where exactly did the idea that I'm a leftover come from?

Well perhaps here …

You are aligned with The Leftovers (Third Party). You are a Gem.

Xk specifically started the game as a 3rd party role. He chose to join the Crystal Gems after Day 2.

So unless you want to make the argument that there is a faction called The Leftovers that explicitly started the game with only 1 member then it stands to reason there is a second Leftover out there. One that would probably lean towards the Mafia given XK leaned towards the Crystal Gems.

And Lapis is the flavor that fits that to a tee.

And don’t bother with “I hate your flavor spec” type response. I don’t really care if you don’t like it.

--

Asked and answered MoI.

Link it then please. Because I agree with mastin that you have spent significant time arguing for a SaGa Frontier style 3rd Party takes all win over Town before Farside got shot. Much more than “She’s align with scum and help them win”.

As far as the issue with Xykfu and Skybird; it may be true that you had to argue Xykfu into triggering the event (although I have a note that says you guys thought it would be refunded and could be used more than once, so you might be overplaying the hesitance to use angle just a tad?), but that still doesn't explain why a scum team informed of that ability, including the stress requirement, would have chosen to kill Yume and raise stress and even put Skybird in danger in the first place. Go back and re-read when Yume was killed. You will see people literally mocking the scum team for doing it and saying they had helped town (which was unbelievably ugly and hurtful towards Yume, which I believe I said something about at the time).

First off you are arguing optimal play again without all known facts here once again. And you are also completely sidestepping the notion that perhaps the scum team thought Skybird would not be “Trap for Clod”ed since she was not under fire. And at the end of the day – scum actions don’t always have to make sense until you see the big picture.

Take Andrius’s recently ended Defcon Mafia 4. Terrorist GreyICE’s decision to Sub Nuke a player who was already slated to be nuked made no sense in the context of the game. It is one of the main reasons I had a hard time thinking he was that role since it appeared to most everyone involved to be a completely pants-on-head play. Yet that’s exactly what happened. Grey made some logical leaps and shot when rationally he could have just waited 36 or so hours to see if PZ was actually killed and then fired his one shot for the day if PZ was not killed.

Same certainly could be the case for the Yume decision. You are spinning a narrative for clearing yourself that is pinned on multiple assumptions that aren’t necessarily true.

We're clear (or at least should be) because of the totality of our play throughout the whole game.

If this were the case I would not be toying with voting you right now.

P.S. - As for the trust tell thing, I've recently had a game I modded ruined over almost exactly the same type of claim/phrasing.

Link it then.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't, I am speculating

He did, I think he is a scum vig or something.

Well if you are just basically empty spitballing to fluff your case on Fuzzy don't expect to get buy in ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I’ve taken some time to think things over and here’s where I am.

None of myself, mastin, random, Almost or Fuzzy is getting lynched today. That leaves RR / Shiro / Grapes as possible lynches.

A huge part of the uncertainty in the game at this point rests on whether we have only 1 scum left or 2.

2 scum requires Grapes to be scum as Lapis the Leftover who could join scum. That much I am comfortable with as a conclusion. And means that the pool of partners is pretty narrow in my mind – Shiro or Fuzzy being the candidates that make sense.

1 scum remaining rules out Shiro 100% as scum.

Frankly form a utility standpoint I’ve made up my mind that Grapes is the best lynch today for the information it gives us on whether Shiro is absolutely clear or a possible lynch target tomorrow . Grapes flipping Leftover aligned with Mafia gives two likely scum candidates. Grapes flipping Leftover not aligned with the Mafia gives us a fourth confirmed Town in Shiro. Both of these give us sufficient breathing room to win the game unless scum have another multi-kill power available.

VOTE: Grapes

--

So TFL can only be scum with grapes under certain assumptions. He can neither be scum with someone else nor can he be the lone scumster left.

No Fuzzy could still be sole remaining scum. I wanted to push Shiro on his logic to see if he had a source he’d be willing to give. But I agree that he couldn’t both Vig and Mafia Nightkill at the same Night as I can’t Bubble and use any other abilities or Events in the same Night.

--

Can we circle back to our conversation in the hood for a minute. Does a plain old vig make sense here? Was Xk's role not essentially -- ally with someone -- kill that person under certain conditions?

I limited shot Vig (max 3 shots over 8 Day / Night cycles) isn’t outrageous. And I don’t see it as strongly conflicting with XK since Xk’s was a 1 Shot Event.

We've already seen extra kills. The cluster killed like 3 people at the same time. And then the yume kill.
If the gems are to be trusted and can win with town. That's strong. Scum need a way to balance against that.

Um I don’t see the point here as the Cluster killing 2 players and the Yume unblockable kill were both scum events that are answers to how the scum can counter the games. Hell they took out 2 gems with those events.

I can quote Varsoon too.

Good for you. Unfortunately that post is irrelevant to the argument that you are a Leftover. Xk did not have a Mod provide fake-claim. I doubt Lapis does either since flavor wise she isn’t obv-scum like the Rubies or Jasper. She would be the flip-side of the coin who could join with the Mafia (via Jasper) if she chose. No reason you MUST join the scum team is my guess.

Speaking of which, wasn't that role heavily redacted with a faux win condition to boot. : p

And this response is why I have not qualms about lynching you. I saw directly the original role PM with full wincon and everything. Trying to pass off as “You can’t know” is bad.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Now it's a "utility lynch"

What happens when I flip town magna who's your fairytale fucking leftover role then?

Yup. If you bothered to read then your flip as Town makes me assured that we only have 1 scum remaining.

Frankly if you are Town at this point all this flailing around doesn't make much sense. You being confirmed Town narrows down the lynch pool to two players which means Town is overwhelmingly likely to win. Yet you act as if the sky is fucking falling.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No clue if that is a hammer or not ...

I'll be leaving detailed instructions to Random in the Gem PT so I'm comfortable that Town has this in hand even if I die overnight.

Would prefer to ally with Almost tonight ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

As a reminder …

Grapes will not be bubbled so should flip before Night ends if this is the actual lynch. Its been awhile since a VC.

Grapes Town means Shiro is confirmed Town and game is on lockdown.
Grapes Leftover Joining Scum means Fuzzy or Shiro is last scum.

--

Btw other than the fact that he needed mastin to push through RR, I still think nobody should discard the idea that Mastin might be 3rd party leftover thus not even needed to be killed/mislynched from scum PoV. Thus making her possibly an unoptimal kill unless certain she needs death.

So your stance is that Yume was lying about Mastin being confirmed Town to her?

--

if I was scum
I would of NK MOI by now

I’m curious why you are using “I would have shot MoI by now” as a defense since I have been shot already …

--

When exactly do you think I aligned with scum? I've never stopped pushing lynches on reds.

I’d ask you to highlight which Red scum you’ve actually pushed on in manner that actually led to their death – you were not on the TWIE lynch and you were not on the Shadow lynch either. I mean you can talk about how you suspected them but when the rubber met the road you were nowhere to be found.

So the only lynch you actually can take credit for was SirCakez which if you could join with the Mafia would have in all likelihood before that happened …

[MagnaofIllusion]

wait you were shot..when did that happen?

Is this another attempt to pretend you aren’t paying attention to the game?

While the forces of Homeworld had been fought back, new concerns were on the minds of Garnet and Pearl. It seemed as though they would have to work twice as hard to protect this planet. With that in mind, Pearl suggested, for the first time in a long time, that they train.

Once at the sky arena, Garnet cracked her knuckles and began to stretch, when Pearl interrupted, "Oh, I think it would be best if we were to focus on our individual weaknesses. For that reason, I think it's best if you're not fused."

Garnet seemed to consider this for a moment, before issuing a blunt, "No." However, Pearl seemed to be fairly serious about this, and after reconsidering, Garnet eventually relented. With a flash of light, she was split into her two original entities, Ruby and Sapphire. Pearl smiled, glad to know that they were on-board with her training. With a grin, Pearl summoned three holographic clones of herself, whom were soon upon the gems, spears at the ready. Should everything go right, everyone would be stronger individually and, ergo, that much more powerful when fused.

However, midway into their training, a large explosion rocked the sky arena. Still fending off holo-Pearl assault, the gems were separated by the explosion. Pearl managed to find Ruby pinned beneath a fallen stone column, only to discover it wasn't the Ruby she was familiar with. With a coughing laugh, this Ruby taunted her, "We were waiting until you were most vulnerable... Now you'll never find your friends. Your planet was nice. It's a shame." With that, she expired, her light retreating into her gem. Pearl slowly stood up, spear in hand. As her holo-clones approached, she quickly dispatched them with a flourish of her spear and a flurry of stabs.

Finally free to wander the ruins of the Sky Arena, Pearl sought out Ruby and Sapphire, silently cursing herself for splitting Garnet up in the first place.

The Event "AH! DON'T HURT HER! DON'T HURT... ME." has been triggered, causing the following public effects:
Due to the effects of this event, a death has been prevented from happening during Climax 5.
Since this death has been prevented, no role information will be flipped and the stress will not be affected.

I’ve already stated multiple times that this was my Event triggering and protecting me from death.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Anyways I need to look but I don't think there is any proof that you were the target day 5,,,,,,,,,,
but yeah if I was scum you would be dead by now.......

Oh, so there is no proof huh? Yet why would anyone else not counter-claim me saying "Yup that's my Event" if I was lying? Same exact fucking logic you want me to use to clear you as a Vig.

And yet you don't see it ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

When exactly do you think I aligned with scum? I've never stopped pushing lynches on

reds

.

Are there other colored scum?

So is this just sour grapes (haha, pun) from scum who got lynched or are you seriously trying to be cute by suggesting that you didn’t start the exchange specifically mentioning the color red?

I really can't believe this still this is just the most far out ridiculous thing why did you all buy into this garbage.

Well I find it interesting that you aren’t even looking sideways at the two main players who have been pushing the 7 scum possibility in RR and Almost.

There's 6 fucking rubies in the show. Lapis makes perfect sense as a specific leftover traitor that joined them or whatever even though there was already a traitor.

Really? Per Wikipedia’s summary of the characters

Ruby squad
– Five Ruby soldiers sent by the Gem Homeworld to locate Jasper during the third season. The five have diverse personalities, but are all played by Charlyne Yi, in a performance that drew praise from critics.[26] They are portrayed as comically gullible, but when one, a veteran of the ancient Gem war, finally realizes that Steven has Rose Quartz's powers in the third season finale, she attacks him relentlessly under the assumption that he is Rose Quartz. At the end of the third season, all five are abandoned to float aimlessly in outer space.

So is Wikipedia wrong? Or are you peddling junk?

[MagnaofIllusion]

My stance is that Yume drew conclusions like she did for skybird

That possibility has crossed my mind too ... but ...

No, it says they're confirmed town in hood OP.

That is pretty explicitly clear that Yume was saying the PT Opening Post explicitly indicated mastin was Confirmed Town. I can't think she went to all the trouble of specifying that if she was just mistaken.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Guys please, he is being so obvious it pains me.

Yeah but if he's the sole scum he's doomed regardless at this point so I don't really see the worry when grapes flip will confirm the game-state.

[MagnaofIllusion]

fair enough, but because i fear my death is imminent tonight may Iget a promise of insta lynch fuzzy tommorow after grapes flips ? I will vote grapes if that happens.

You get my full promise that if both myself and Fuzzy are alive tomorrow I will vote there without hesitation.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Mastin

- answer me this one question then regarding RR ...

RR had access as scum to a free "Kill anyone" Mafia kill last Night. This I have confirmed with the Mod.

Why does last scum RR not use it to kill you who is the biggest thorn in her side? Why does they not use it to kill myself or Random who are confirmed Gems?

Why do they fail to shoot when doing so just means PoE will bite them in the ass regardless?

[MagnaofIllusion]

This, because of my confidence it really fucking is just Reasonably Rational. I'll continue protecting grapes until RR is dead. I realize that's potentially holding the game hostage. But as far as I'm concerned: the 'case' against grapes is utter bullshit. So I'm going to protect grapes until either RR is dead, or I am.

I think the following gif will explain my thoughts upon reading Mastin's latest posts ...



I'm done. I'm going on vacation to Hawaii over the holiday and frankly will enjoy only having phone access. Because I get the strong feeling this is yet another "grand plan" that is going to fucking blow up in everyone's face. Yup ... that's exactly what I am saying.

Congrats Mastin. Regardless what happens expect no buy in from me on whatever you want to sell for the rest of the game. Because you holding the fucking game hostage is so stupid I can't trust you to make a good move from here on out. So I guess instead of working together I'll have to do what I can independent of you and your ego trip.

MOD - I'm basically V/LA from now to Jan 2. I will check in via phone and meet activity requirements but don't expect large in depth posts till after the first of the year.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Mastin

- you know if Grapes is scum you have no choice in allying with him, right? That's part of his role as claimed in our PT.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So now that I've had few hours to digest while driving home and eating dinner and helping sprout with a project I think I can make a reasonable post without going berserk. This will mainly have two sections - one directed to Mastin and one directed to RR.

--

First Mastin - while I was driving home and mulling over your recent posts my gut reaction to was immediately come into the thread with a "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on" vote for Fuzzy. I don't like ultimatums. In fact one for my wife (well she was a girlfriend at the time) came a hairs breath from having her not be my wife. Which would have made my life much worse I think. I would not have her or my daughter and I can't imagine living in a world without them. But it was close. That's how poorly I react to "My way or the highway" declarations. I write this all to give you an understanding of where the next part comes from.

I'm still miffed as fuck about how you approached this. I've already laid out my thoughts on why I voted grapes. I don't particularly care if you don't think there is the possibility of a recruitable Leftover. This game is pretty damn complicated and I think it is impossible to fully parse from a non-spoiled perspective. So you outright handwaving away the possibility on the back of your grapes read leaves me non-plussed. You can't argue that scum is over-powered from what we know. And ever since Kraska flipped with the ability to Confirm herself in 3 Player LYLO I've been torn about the possibility of a Leftover counterpart to XK. And only grapes makes sense as that possible Leftover given her claim.

So the fact that you so easily dismiss that him being flipped to absolutely solidify 1 versus 2 scum is Pro Town because you have a bug up your ass to lynch RR makes me mad. I don't really care how strongly you read RR as scum or strongly you read grapes as Town. Because as I laid out why his flip is game-breaking - Shiro being confirmed Town with a grapes Town flip locks this down without a hint of failure. Too many players that are rock solid Town for two many reasons. Yet you are standing and saying "This is my game and you are going to play how I say".

So again - part of me wants to vote Fuzzy right now. Because in either scenario he is a possible scum candidate. He can be solo scum who could not fire both a Vig and a Mafia kill at Night. Just as easily as RR being solo scum who chose to No Kill to frame Fuzzy or who tried to kill me or Random because he was "empowered". I don't buy the second very much if Drixx and Cerb are as smart as you say because Commuting is the one absolute "cannot fuck with" ability in NAR. Strongmanning a kill beats Bulletproof. It beats Doc. It beats Roleblock. But it loses to a Commute every day of the week. So your "Hey they tried to kill you" requires them to have derped on a level that I don't think makes sense for competent players. Fuzzy can just as easily be scum with grapes if grapes lacks the ability to fire off the Mafia kill And some of his recent posting makes me want him gone even if he is Town. I mean selling "I didn't vote during Beach-a-palooza" as a reason he's Town? Moonbeams of epic proportions.

So part of me wants to say "I'm taking this team on my back and dragging you to victory despite Mastin's temper tantrum". And believe me it is taking a great bit of restraint to not just do that. Because I can move forward regardless of your wishes. Your protection of grapes only extends so far. And I have huge concerns that your "I'll sheep you tomorrow" is meaningless if I am not alive to be sheeped. And I absolutely want to stick it in your face for your little "hahaha MoI approved of us allying sucks to be him reaping instant karma" comments you've dropped several times since your reveal.

But I'm not voting this second as I want to see what Random thinks and where everyone else's head is at. I'm sure Shiro would join on voting out Fuzzy. Almost appears to be taking a contrarian "I'm keeping my vote useless" stance.

--

Next RR - here's the thing guys ... you have done yourself no favors since I replaced into this game. For every reason you give as to "Why I can't be scum" I can find a perfectly reasonable hole in those arguments. And on a gut level your reaction to me and my early suspicion of you specifically still I think smells of scum - you tried hard to sell me as OMGUSing and not being reasonable for suspecting you. And (yes I fully understand the irony of what I am about to say) your "We're better than you" general attitude is almost as grating as "Lol, Imma troll" players. And I haven't bothered to say this to grapes but when I see "We've only been mislynched once" my gut reaction is - that's not something to be proud of. Frankly it means you are more interested in staying alive than pushing for scum in ways that can be very useful but leave you open to being strung up if you are wrong. And instinctively it makes me want to vote you even if you are Town in hopes it will help grind that attitude out of you. But I don't make votes for reasons like that so late in a game that still is in doubt.

And while I'm irritated as fuck at mastin he has one thing going for him - he's confirmed Town. And no matter how much dealing with his power-trip today is abhorrent he still is not going to be on my lynch list. So giving him this lynch from a pool of possible scum isn't the end of the world.

So I guess what I am saying is - think long and hard about what you have in your playbook that would make me think I should tell mastin to sod off and go a different way. And make it compelling which means not including statements about how obviously Town you are or how much you have been right about in the game so far. That dog don't hunt.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Almost

– regarding 11837 – I don’t care if it is on principle and a vote on scum – mastin has basically assured that grapes isn’t getting lynched. That means it is useless. Find another scum suspect to vote.

As to your analysis – The only thing I can say is I will not be bubbling Mastin regardless of how poorly his stance works out for Town. That’s just not viable. And I agree about not telegraphing what I can or cannot do in regards to bubbling or other abilities.

--

There is no "fuck you" which you can give, Magna.

Yes there is. Refusing to lynch RR at any point to deny you what you want. Now I will not do that long term as it would be the equivalent of game-throwing but I can settle for the minor version by not giving you what you want today if I wanted to be vindictive.

And you can't argue that scum are underpowered either. Scum have exactly the level of power I expect them to have. Not more, not less.

Absolutely true. But the basis for your “I am confident there is only one scum” seems to be some sort of power analysis. I don’t see why else you come to that conclusion even with your magical MYLO LYLO powers.

You also forget this simple fact.

Really.
Painfully.
Simple.

Thanks to my ability, we learn if it's one or two scum left automatically if my alliance holds. Because. Again. My power doesn't work in mylo. With two scum alive and 6 players, that's mylo. So my power not fucking working would confirm grapes is scum.

Do you get my stance now?

Lynching grapes today gives us nothing we won't learn tomorrow. Absolutely nothing. We AUTOMATICALLY learn if it is mylo or not, thanks to my ability. By proxy, we AUTOMATICALLY learn if there is one scum left or two. So the lynch on grapes for mechanical reasons to confirm one versus two is, as far as I'm concerned: utter shit.

I get your stance. I think it is pretty stubborn on your part but I can see where you are going. I’ve run the figures on a worst case scenario and grapes being Town means more a less a lock for Town regardless what day he is lynched and grapes being scum means a 3 Player LYLO with one of yourself / Myself / Random making the choice between two of (Almost / RR / Shiro).

The one hole in your logic that I see that I want you to absolutely check with Varsoon on – confirming you have to be alive for your MYLO / LYLO powers to work for your alliance member.

Because an easy way to blow a hole in the scenarios I’ve run if for you to die tonight and thus not being able to confirm grapes tomorrow via MYLO / LYLO. If that happens we take what I feel is a lock Town win if grapes is Town and lynched today as opposed to having to roll the dice on grapes tomorrow.

So double check with Varsoon that your MYLO / LYLO Alliance bonuses extend to your Alliance partner even if you die. I don’t think they will but I can’t say for certain.

If they don’t then you dying tonight throws away a lock Town win and I’m not willing to go with a RR lynch on the chance you are right on grapes and wrong on RR.

I can show the scenarios if necessary but getting that question answered first is important.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well you are wrong Mastin in that not lynching grapes today as Town turns a sure win into a 50 50 LYLO.

Don't see that? Redo your analysis then.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First off am back from vacations ... ah sweet Hawaii memories ...

anyways I never said the Gems lied..... they are masons.....that doesn't mean that Vasoon didn't slip a scum into the masons.
I find your response very telling.....

1. Game is not bastard per initial offering posted by Varsoon
2. Mason scum is requires a Bastard game

VOTE: Fuzzy

I'll be going over the thread today and giving more feedback about posting while I was gone but this is pretty much where I have landed for today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

please please please MOI I beg you read the mafia wiki page on masons.......

I've read the wiki before. This is not my first rodeo. Do you think I haven't? Do you think what the Wiki has listed about scum Masons (that they specifically are not alignment confirmed to the other Masons thus making them effectively Neighbors not Masons) applies to this game somehow?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Mastin

– before I go through the thread and respond specifically to everything I want to lay out the difference of why grapes not being lynched today can turn a lock scenario to a coin flip.

Premises of this analysis.

1. Grapes is Town as you suggest.
2. Grapes is the only character remaining who makes any sense as Leftover who can join / help the Mafia.
3. Based on 2 that there is only 1 scum remaining.

If you disagree with these premises pipe up. Otherwise look at the logic flow.

If we lynched Grapes today that leaves us with the following pools of players before a Mafia Nightkill.

Confirmed Town (4)– myself, Random, yourself and Shiro.
Not Confirmed Town (3)– Almost, RR, Fuzzy

Shiro becomes confirmed not scum do to the game not ending when Shadow was lynched and he was bubbled per Mod confirmation to me in conjunction with the above 3 premises.

No matter who scum kills at Night we resolve worst-case (excepting some oddball scum event that I don’t think is likely at this stage)

3 Confirmed Town
3 Others

We lynch one of the others (RR for example) and the Crystal Gems bubble one of the others (Fuzzy). Assuming successful Mafia kill going into the next day we have

2 Confirmed Town
1 Other

Game, set, match.

Now if we don’t lynch grapes today and scum kills you (which eliminates your magic MYLO/LYLO confirmation ability) we have the following situation the next day.

2 Confirmed Town – Random and myself
5 Others – grapes, Fuzzy, RR, Almost, Shiro

The only way to confirm grapes is Town under this circumstance is to lynch him. This means Shiro can’t be confirmed until after the flip during Night. Thus going before the Nightkill we have the following game-state

3 Confirmed Town – Myself, random and Shiro
3 Others – Fuzzy, RR, Almost

Scum kills one of the above rendering it 2 Confirmed to 3 Others. The Crystal Gems cannot bubble one of the remaining suspects because shooting incorrectly gives us a 2-2 gamestate which per the Mafia wincon ends the game for scum. So Town lynches 1 of the 3, scum Nightkills again (with the same risks preventing a bubble the next Night) and we are left with 1 confirmed and 2 suspects.

Thus a coinflip for the remaining confirmed player.

This is absolutely the math behind why Town grapes being flipped to me is a no-brainer. And scum grapes being lynched today is more or less a necessity as grapes-scum means with a partner means there is no lock path to victory as Shiro never becomes confirmed.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fuzzy isn't an option.

Nope. Sorry. You may have escaped the noose but you certainly don't have the cachet to just declare people off the table.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So my plan is essentially:
Pray that this isn't multiball.
Pray that mastin/yume mason claim wasn't a cross-scum gambit
Lynch the scum in Almost/RR.

I have a hard time believing that you are serious in this posting if you are Town.

Selling this game as possible mutliball with the Nightkill track record established is moon logic 202. Yes, not even 101. Advanced level moon logic posting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So here is where I am at. Having read over countless Mastin walls and other responses I’m at the following place regarding everyone left in the game.

Mastin / Random – Not going to lynch them. This is pretty much written in stone at this stage.

Almost – the Mod revelation(to me) that his Alliance ability did in fact empower the Mafia factional Nightkill spelled the end of my suspicion of him today. There is no reason for scum A50 to not link up with partners after Day 1 to make sure (or as sure as they could get) that no pesky Docs or BP prevented their Nightkills. And especially after the loss of Skybird. Yet we’ve had a significant period of lack of unaccounted for Nightkills. So not voting there today. If someone wants to compile an alliance list for Almost (N0/D1, N1/D2, etc) to refute my perception feel free.

RR – Given as solo Mafia his Nightkill last Night would not have fail on any Non-Commuting targets I don’t see the lack of kill outside Farside as making any sense for RR. He could have easily shot Mastin under those circumstances and no-one would have blinked an eye given Mastin’s confirmed status. Sorry Mastin but your whole “No Killing keeps the suspicion on Fuzzy” theory is great and all but it requires RR to have made a move that GUARENTEES he loses the game as solo scum with grapes being lynched today. I don’t see that as happening.

Grapes – I’ve already explained why he’s the optimal lynch for today so not rehashing since Mastin has dug his heels in.

That leaves –

Fuzzy – the lack of a second kill last Night makes all sense for scum with a Vig that can’t use both abilities. And I’m not forgetting that he was more than willing to lynch other than Shadow yesterday when that was the best choice for hanging. lastly he works as both Solo scum or partner scum with grapes.

Shiro – In hindsight I wish he was still bubbled. I acted rashly in releasing him and that is on me. His play is meh but he’s cleared of being solo scum so I will not lynch there today.

So that’s everyone. I can’t see me budging on voting either Fuzzy or Grapes today regardless.

--

How many vigs do you expect scum to have?

As many as is reasonable in an insanely complex set-up. Are you suggesting that scum couldn’t have a limited shot vig for balance purposes? Really trying to clear Fuzzy via role reasons is probably the least convincing route you could go.

Why don’t you explain why he doesn’t make sense from a Dayplay perspective?

Then stop contributing to my paranoia and quit with the terrible pushes bro.

I mean the only appropriate response to this is …



--

MOi what makes you think scum will make or will be able to make a NK given the record the last couple night>>>

Because scum being able to Nightkill is generally the safe and conservative basis for extrapolation. My ‘Lynch Grapes’ scenario is as worst case as I can get. If scum somehow can’t kill then all the better Town absolutely can’t lose.

Also I wanted to share a tidbit that should completely eliminate Random from your suspect pool – Climax 6 where there was no Nightkill and Farside was targeted with a mystery ability (which I think was the normal Mafia kill) – Random took no action. Just an FYI. So whatever unclaimed ability targeted Farside did not come from Random.

I am confused as anything on why mastin, Moi or Random are not dead, If I was scum I would make sure atleast one maybe two were dead. If all three are town than that makes it so hard to win...... No way would there be three alive at this point if I was scum . This is of course Wifom.

Maybe it it is me but I found that if obvious town players are alive when they should be dead than you have to consider they might be scum Many a time there player who seem obvtown are left alive when they should
dead than at the end of the game they flip scum . Not always the case but I have seen it happen enough time to make me suspicious.

Aside from this awkward justification for suspecting players who you shouldn’t …

You keep trying to pretend scum didn’t shoot at me Climax 5 which was prevented. This reinforces my thoughts that you are trying to sell a narrative (scum just can’t kill) rather than looking at the facts and extrapolating from there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: Though I agree with you about A50 being town for other reasons, I have to note that I believe you have his empowering ability wrong. He empowers on season finales specifically, not all the time.

I understand that (with the caveat it also works when stress is +2 or higher). However were you Fuzzy and Almost not allied for the Season Finale (Day / Night 8)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

We were, I'm just saying that the history of scum no kills doesn't mean a lot when he couldn't have empowered kills except on some special occasions. Though, now that I think about it, mechanically there's weak evidence that he's not scum because of the existing scum strongmen+his empowering happening at the opposite end of the stress meter. So, your point does have some degree of merit, just not because of the missing kills...unless I'm misunderstanding the nature of your argument?

Yes, only on special occasions is correct. But clearly the fact that on the first occasion (Finale 1, Day / Night 4) he chose to ally with me and grapes (although it only turned out to be me due to circumstances). So unless you buy that both grapes and Almost are scum together that move makes little sense if he is scum as he should be aware that Skybird stands a chance of being killed. At the very least he should have included Shadow in that grouping to give his otherwise Vanilla scum partner a strongman kill.

I could go back and look at all the stress counts to see if any other Nights would qualify if needed. But I think the general point stands. Furthermore Almost had no reason to forgo a Nightkill last Night.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In a world where fuzzy is town, scum killing last night confirms fuzzy as town.

If this really was the case scum could have just confirmed he was Town by, you know, shooting him.

Probably the much smarter option given the raw number of kills they have missed before yesterday.

But that absolutely hasn't crossed into your thought process, has it?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: Can you PLEASE tell Mastin that?????? I said it as just the simplest reason why her no kill arguments don't make sense, and she hand waved it away.

If mastin was inclined to listen to anyone she would have at least considered it.

I think she's on cruise control just waiting out the day hoping that others are less stubborn and will just "give in" to her wishes.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Almost / RR

– We haven’t had a vote count in awhile but I believe Fuzzy is at either L-2 (myself, Random and Shiro voting him) or L-1 (add on his self-vote). Are you willing to lynch Fuzzy today?

--

What would be a good kill for scum at this point? And why bother when that confirms lynchbait as town and also clears me as town now that I'm thinking about it because almost regardless of alignment can't lie about his track on me which rr and fuzzy both knew about.

It doesn’t confirm you as Town and the fact that you (and mastin, but that’s another story) keep presenting it as fact is bad.

And what's more if fuzzy's a vig he's shooting bulletproof obvtown for sure anyway.

So what? Scum need bodies to hit the floor to win. They’ve had a miserable track record of that happening in the last 4 Nights (half of which was engineered by me but that’s beside the point). Your point seems to be “Scum would rather put themselves in a position to have to dodge more lynches and bubbles than necessary because … um .. not sure given that the only person killing Fuzzy would clear would be dead Fuzzy” and that’s pretty weak.

Meanwhile all that is predicated on your stance that Fuzzy is Town when scum Fuzzy also just as neatly explains the lack of a second kill last Night. But we’ve clearly been over that and you’ve ignored it before so I’m assuming it is still in your “ignore pile”.

--

I never said that they never shot at you night 5, I do find it odd that three conf town are alive at this point....... I am confused maybe you can help me.
I seem to understand you set off the event night 5...... tell me if I am wrong on this. If I understand right you set off the event that prevented the kill and you also was the one targeted, Am I correct on this also,

If you do happen to be Town then stop asking for pointless explanation. Unless you are suggesting I’m scum who engineered an event reveal by Varsoon to cover for No Killing (which is a pretty ludicrously stupid idea frankly) then just accept what I am saying and move on.

Random just seem to be skating by on the fact that he is a Gem..... I know he is a low energy player. I get that but honestly I have not seen anything outside of him being mason to point he is town. Not even saying he is necessarily scum but honestly I have very little that points to him being town. Just seems like everyone is giving him a free pass and that's frustrating!!!!!!! if he was not a mason he would get more heat,,

FYI for anyone who thinks Fuzzy is Town – this absolutely screams “Frustrated scum who sees what should be an easy mislynch hanging out there and just can’t understand why it can’t be achieved”.

If Moi was scum
Night5- is lying about being shot at
Night6- Shot Far?
Night7- RB by Event

So you are saying hypothetically I triggered two events (N5 and N7) as scum that prevented scum from killing or required scum to No Kill for no real gain? Do I have that logic correct? Because it is solid and clear that no-one is counter-claiming those event triggers. I just want to be clear that really even bothered to type this up when it is clearly patently absurd.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mastin let’s start at the beginning –

I deserve a Scummy period, for being literally the only one who has been consistently here and actually trying to solve the game from a multidimensional, multilayered approach.

Don't EVER dare insult me like this again.

Nope nope nope.

Beyond anything else you don’t get to play the injured party while basically insulting the ability and effort of every other player in the game.

Sorry, you don’t.

I don’t give a rat’s ass that you think you are putting in the most effort ever and no-one else is doing jack shit. Just because you want to type long posts explaining over and over why you think RR is scum doesn’t mean other players aren’t putting in effort. I’ve spent an inordinate amount of time thinking about the game, different theories and what I think needs to happen to achieve a Town win. I’m sure you will get the same response from some others.

But don’t pretend you are the only one who cares and is trying their best. And you flat out are coasting on “RR is the last scum”. You may dislike beinig called out on it but you are. I don’t really care that if you are wrong on RR then you are out of ideas and will be a dutiful little sheep. The point of Mafia is not to see if Mastin is wrong or not. It’s to win the game. That's what I am working towards.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Shiro has decided to park his vote on me in spite of pushing for TFL to be lynched, so I think TFL only has 2 votes on him right now. Maybe I'm wrong?

You might not be. I assumed Shiro was still voting Fuzzy. I have so many other posts by mastin to respond to I didn't bother to check.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Stopping you there.
If we agree on the premise that grapes is town, it doesn't matter if he is confirmed as town via lynch.
We can automatically assume that Shiro is confirmed as town if grapes is town.

No I don’t agree that grapes is Town. Why do you bother with this avenue when you flat out know I don’t believe it? I think grapes stands a better than likely chance of being Leftover Scum joining Lapis. That’s for certain. That exercise was simply to show you that even if grapes is Town confirming it before Daybreak tomorrow is a shut-down win for Town and you are standing in the way of that with your stance.

Fuck theoretical gamebreaking strategies.

Fuck stupid stances that only serve to reinforce self-pride.

Show me why grapes is scum. Or, alternatively, show me why every player aside from grapes is town. (You're allowed one exception if you feel there are two scum left.)

You can’t prove people are Town via anything short of IC status confirmed by the mod and asking for that as evidence is stupid. Hell there is doubt in some players minds that you aren’t scum given that reliability of Yume as a witness to your IC status. You aren’t a Newb and I expect better from you than that.

As to why grapes is scum – his behavior looks very much like scum behavior.

Firstly we have his general engagement level with the game. Grapes has been a more or less non-entity since I joined at the start of Day 3. I think I actually forgot he was in the game at one point that was how non-impactful his presences was up until today. Now the fact that he has suddenly “come alive” after it is clear that he’s realistically a lynch candidate and only got saved by your Alliance ability fits very well with scum (in this case Leftover Joiner variety) who got an early Town read and has been cruising along on that just looking for endgame.

But let’s look at his pushes and behavior on the important days starting Day 3. Day 1 and 2 are being ignored because as a Leftover Joiner his push on SirCakez would have been from a standpoint of not knowing who scum were. If he joined like XK it was after Day 2.

Day 3 was the DGB lynch. Grapes starts the day with a farside vote at 6628 after saying that both DGB and farside are good votes in 6613. In that reads post he also puts Shadow as a secondary scum read with Kraska and RR. The farside vote comes right after Vote Count 3.01 showing Farside with 3 votes and DGB with 2. So grapes votes and gives the farside wagon an early lead as opposed to supporting her other suspect DGB and making it a tie.

6792 again shows soft suspicion of Shadow (asking his favorite kind of rope). And then we get a soft “Skybird might be scum” at 6963.

After Vote Count 3.06 where Farside is at 9 votes grapes hops off the wagon on Town and votes for kraska at 7749. This is significant because DGB (who previously was the best other vote per grapes’s own posting) was at 6 votes and grapes is simply following a single mastin kraska vote. This doesn’t show a Town thought process. Grapes is acting contrary to his stated reads (moving from a dominant wagon on one of his top scum reads and ignoring his other top scum read that was the next most viable wagon) and simply joining a vanity wagon on Town. Looks like scum who knew a mislynch might be afoot and was searching for a way to get off while not fueling an already strong wagon on scum.

Reminder of what that vanity wagon looked like in the next vote count –

VOTECOUNT 3.07

Farside22 (8): Titus, SnarkySnowman, MagnaofIllusion, TheWayItEnds, DrippingGoofball, Skybird, Yume, Xkfyu
DrippingGoofball (6): Shiro, Thefuzzylogic99, Not Chara, McMenno, Creature, Farside22
Kraskaesque (3): mastin2, grapes, Shadow_Step

Three flipped scum fueling Farside and another scum on kraska with grapes.

Then we get another one-off vote on Snarky at 7850. Again DGB has been a viable wagon this whole time and grapes is not even looking at DGB or questioning her or anything.

Farside gets lynched and proves lynchproof and the vote count is reset at 3.09. Grapes once again drops a Snarky (Town) vote at 8113. First mention at all of DGB after the initial “Hey, they are a great vote” is 8319 basically downplaying interaction reading since DGB is a traitor.

Here’s the snapshot of the vote state as of 3.11 –

VOTECOUNT 3.11

SnarkySnowman (7): McMenno, Farside22, Titus, Not Chara, grapes, mastin2, TheWayItEnds
DrippingGoofball (4): Thefuzzylogic99, SnarkySnowman, MagnaofIllusion, Creature
Farside22 (1): Almost50

Not Voting (9): Shadow_Step, Xkfyu, Skybird, Shiro, DrippingGoofball, Reasonably Rational, Kraskaeaque, Firebringer, randomidget

Note that grapes is part of the counter-wagon push for Snarky. Then at 8490 grapes hops on the DGB wagon with narry a comment why. And let’s look at grapes’ placement on the wagon –

VOTECOUNT 3.12 : LYNCH

DrippingGoofball (LYNCH): Thefuzzylogic99, SnarkySnowman, MagnaofIllusion, Creature, Titus, Shiro, Firebringer, grapes, McMenno, Farside22, Not Chara

That is prime “Oh well better get on the bus” vote movement right there. Once again – at the start of the day DGB was one of grapes’s two “best vote” locations but he only ever actually voted DGB when it became clear she was doomed.

His only post Day 4 (Snarky’s quicklynch) was to say “I didn’t get an Alliance” at 8619

Day 5 –

Opens with a farside vote at 9138. Now let’s look at his reads list presented –

Okay so we can't even lynch today because what the fuck let's all pile on snarky.
Thought after the skybird flip he looked more town. Which is why I voted kraska for the lynch thing.

Shadow_Step - meh
Almost50 - wouldn't lynch today
Shiro - meh
Farside22 - good lynch
Reasonably Rational - wouldn't lynch today
mastin2 - wouldn't lynch today
Kraskaeaque - good lynch
MagnaofIllusion - meh
TheFuzzylogic99 - wouldn't lynch today
Creature - wouldn't lynch today
randomidget - meh
TheWayItEnds - good lynch

Just completely off the top of the dome. I know twie looks pretty bad especially since he didn't vig I mean he might've been blocked but really it's getting more and more convenient.

TWIE (scum), Farside and Kraska (both Town) are “good lynches”. Again look through his ISO yourself but this is yet another case of scum being in his top pile but not questioning / pushing on them in thread at all.

And SS is “meh”.

Next I direct you to the following –

As for farside, I dunno man. Looks like there's a lot of things there. I mean I could see town just lolhammering snarky there I suppose and I don't really get why the numbers matter so much when you're voting to lynch anyway. It's easy to paint -not letting everyone get alliances- as scummy. It's easy to paint her role as scummy because it kinda is.

But the trouble is based on XK's flip that the leftovers have literally no reason to not try and help the faction who's lending them more of an ear. And town sure as hell has been pissed at farside.

Kraska's groupscum for certain. And if there's 5 twie's the last.

I’ve bolded the above portion to highlight that as of Day 5 to show that prior to today’s early “There are no Leftovers” flailing by grapes he was posting from a standpoint that he believed there was more than one.

And to point out that he’s slotting kraska above TWIE in his scum potential hierarchy while positing TWIE might even not be scum due to there only being 4.

And a snapshot into the Day’s state at Vote Count 5.03 –

VOTECOUNT 5.03

TheWayItEnds (3): Farside22, Kraskaeaque, mastin2
Farside22 (2): ReasonablyRational, Almost50
Creature (1): MagnaofIllusion
TheFuzzyLogic99 (1): Shadow_Step

Not Voting (6): Shiro, grapes, Thefuzzylogic99, Creature, randomidget, TheWayItEnds

So TWIE is the leading wagon but grapes isn’t voting one of his top suspects at this stage.

Grapes votes TWIE at 9975 and then votes kraska less than 100 posts later at 10061.

TWIE gets lynched this day and grapes ends up on the kraska vanity wagon at Vote Count 5.06.

From this point on Shadow is the only remaining known scum. Remember all that early “Shadow is scum” distancing from Day 3? Keep that in mind going forward.

pedit: I'm not sure creature -- most people think you're scum and I really liked the idea of a shadow/fuzzy duo. Because I can see those two ironing out there differences and I don't trust fuzzy with a vig by himself he already shot fire apparently.

Now that scum is very handicapped in membership Shadow is a good person to be helping mind Fuzzy’s shot. Yet still there are escape holes to renew that Shadow scum read as shown in 11056.

He votes Shadow this day only after Mastin throws his support to Creature at 11133. It is an important position as the wagon on Creature was effectively at L-1 (I was off only to make sure Alliances get set) so it is a safe vote that isn’t going to get a lynch. Why do I call it a distancing vote?

Because the next day Shadow after getting three quick votes (none of which are grapes) opens with his “oops, slipped in talking to grapes in the QT” post at 11267. And grapes says one thing about it. No “Oh You Scumbag Don’t Try To WIFOM Take Me With You!” outrage. Compare this with his reaction to Fuzzy saying he wants to Vig Grapes at starting at 11259. It isn’t consistent at all that grapes would go out of his way to react to one threat to take him out (Vig at Night) but not an attempt to get him lynched by scum. Grapes was comfortable taking the WIFOM ticket (banking on people assuming that it was a gambit by Shadow to drag him down).

So in summary grapes’s voting / suspicion profile very much fits informed Scum. He only is ever a part of wagons when it is a forgone conclusion (never early fueling them) and convienently has reasons to vote Town (kraska, farside) on the occasions when scum is an alternate top scum suspect for him.

This post is getting long enough but I’ll cover today in another post later.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Mastin

– Why don’t you ask grapes about his claimed Cop Event? I’d really like to see your take on what he claims to have.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOI
Yeah bc asking questions and trying to figure things out is just so so scummy.......I hate how you are trying to make me feel dumb for asking questions....really this is just anti town, Sorry you are not helping, I don't think you are scum. Its possible but unlikely.
On the questions ......If you are scum than you either are lying about setting off the event or being targeted. As I said its odd that you set off an event that saved your own life........ Its possible though. That why I was asking you about it. I am trying to work through these things out..... No I am not CC As I said I am just trying to figure out how exactly the event work.

See this response avoids all the important points I brought up and tries to sideline it in "I'm trying to figure stuff out".

Facts -

1. An Event Occured.
2. The Event specified that it prevented a death.

The Event "AH! DON'T HURT HER! DON'T HURT... ME." has been triggered, causing the following public effects:
Due to the effects of this event, a death has been prevented from happening during Climax 5.
Since this death has been prevented, no role information will be flipped and the stress will not be affected.

3. I am claiming to have triggered the Event and saved myself.
4. No-one is counter-claiming me.

And yet you persist in trying to "understand" something that doesn't need any more explanation. If I was lying why hasn't someone said "Oh no I triggered that Event" to get me lynched by this point? You look like you are trying to find angles to doubt the claim (which solidifies I'm not scum as I was the Nightkill target) to leave me in a scum pool. This isn't a Bastard Game so there is no way as scum I could concoct fact information from the Mod to cover a No-Kill.

Furthermore you didn't answer why I would trigger ANOTHER event that prevented the Mafia Nightkill if I was scum when the game-state made that very damaging to scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The point I was making is whether the SCUM would be able to tell the difference before allying with Xkfyu themselves. That being, would Skybird have KNOWN she wasn't immune? Not us on day nine after she's long-since dead. Her on the day she made the alliance.

Given that scum had access to the Remote Detonator Event that killed Bulletproof Yume which I am guessing they had knowledge of from the very start of the game the clear answer is overwhelmingly yes.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Shiro / Almost

– you have Fuzzy’s express permission to vote him today. Please do so.

--

Mastin can't talk to grapes privately.

I'm a little confused by why grapes wouldn't have triggered a cop event at some point though.

If you mean in private, you'd be fundamentally forgetting a particular aspect of my alliance with grapes.

If you mean in public? Nothing I say is any different than it coming from you. I have no knowledge of grapes's event. But frankly I don't care about the event--events on a rolecard are almost all town powers with town flavors. What knowledge is there to be gained in knowing grapes's event? That it hasn't been used?

I’m lumping these together because they both address grapes’s claimed Event that I outed earlier.

Background – in out PT grapes claimed to have an Event and an ability that could work in conjuction.

The Event requires Stress +4 and grapes could target a player and both he and the player are removed from the game. If the player is Not a Threat to Earth both will return at the end of the current Episode. If the player is scum Stress goes immediately to -4.

Grapes ability claim is that on Season Finales if he is removed from the game he can return.

My issue with the claim is that (and grapes reaction of “Why did you out me”) stems from the convenience of it – we have yet to get to Stress +4 this game and I think odds are overwhelming based on the game-state we will never reach that point. So it is a “safe” claim for him to make that explains why he’s never used this highly modified Cop / Vig style role that either absolutely removes a Mafia player (maybe at the cost of Grapes depending on the time frame) or confirms another player as Town. Furthermore grapes’s “Why did you out me” from 12117 rings false given all I have just said – it isn’t like I’m compromising a powerful role given he hasn’t used it in 9 game days and will not be using it the rest of the game.

RR – The above explains why it isn’t used and I’ve explained why I feel that makes the claim shaky.

Mastin – This is the sort of response that makes “working with you” a chore. Before even knowing what information there was to be had you dismiss out of hand that it could be impactful to you and your read. The important point of his ability that undercuts his “Fuzzy isn’t scum” stance is that he is claiming yet another Vig(or more precisely Vig Scum Confirm Town) kill ability from “Town” (on top of XK’s Trap for Clods, the Gems quasi Vig Bubbling ability) but refused to even look askance at Fuzzy’s claimed ability as possibly scum.

--

I actually don't remember if it was confirmed magna was shot or if scum possibly no-killed again.
It's the easiest explanation for the missing kill that night sure but it's also not a given I don't believe.

Mastin was talking about N5 being somewhat of a mystery and I think that was when scum might've tried to shoot farside because she got 2 points that day someone correct me if I'm wrong there.

On the heels of me explaining (and showing Mod provided info that a death was prevented by the Night 5 Event) to Fuzzy about that Night this doesn’t dissuade me at all on my read. Especially given the context where mastin specified in his summary that Farside logically was shot at Night 6.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I am scumhunting. just because im not posting it doesnt mean it isnt happening.

Don't ever use this as a response to people claiming you aren't scum-hunting.

If you aren't doing it in thread for everyone to see (or in a PT be it a Neighborhood or Masonry where others can observe it) then it is pretty safe to assume everyone thinks nothing is going on. 'Show Don't Tell' writ large.

Frankly your play here is reminding me of Soccer Spirits where you got lynched late game for the same lack of perceived effort. I would have thought you might have learned a lesson from that given your post-game comments.

[MagnaofIllusion]

By the way, how's this sound for a plan?

Today we lynch one of Fuzzy/RR.
You bubble the other.

Sorry, no. This is yet another “I get what I want” plan made by you that benefits your goals (which I don’t agree with clearly).

The only way RR gets lynched is if all players not RR, myself and Random vote for RR or one of us defects. I’m not voting RR today. RR clearly is not voting for themselves. I don’t think Random will vote their either. And I don't see Almost as voting that way either when Fuzzy seems to be a more logical fit as scum in his mindset (this is IMO of course Almost can speak for himself).

Fuzzy more likely of the two to be lynched today. So I’m not bargaining with you over the more likely scenario.

The only way I’d even consider letting you direct the Bubble tonight to RR is if we lynched grapes. And you’ve made it clear that isn’t happening.

So no deals to be made I am afraid.

Mind you: "they mean nothing" is a valid point of view. But when you raise that argument, I will explain why I feel they mean something...
...And then you don't go to respond and explain why you feel they mean nothing.

And here is the root of our disconnect. Responding to your overly long posts point by point isn’t something I really care to do. When I say “I disagree with your assessments” that frankly should be the end of the discussion. Neither of us are trying to ascertain the alignment of the other player – that issue has been long settled. And it is clear to me that both of us are not going to be convinced about the other’s stances. Your response to my Grapes discussion is an example of that. I’d summarize it as “Nah I disagree” if I was trying to boil it down to pure essence. Your response didn’t change my mind on my thoughts there and me pointless telling you why I think all your responses are invalid or bad isn’t going to change yours. I’m self-aware enough to know and acknowledge this. I assumed you to also be so.

Here’s where I am – your RR case summarizes down to “Burden of Proficiency” that RR should be a lot more Town if they were Town. That’s never going to sell me and each wall you put up explaning it under those terms is pointless. Another issue I have is that your narrative hinges on RR as the “Scum Mastermind” behind the moves of the scum team. But every time you hit something that contradicts that narrative you try to hand-wave it away as “Lucky Happenstance or Scum Don’t Play Perfectly”. Let’s look at 12077.

You conclude that scum killed Yume to allow Xk to fire off an Event because said “Scum Mastermind” RR figured it would fail. That’s reaching for obvious straws given Yume was likely killed as confirmed Stephen Universe who had enough voices in her ear she couldn’t be easily manipulated. Furthermore it has been demonstrated that scum had all the resources to know explicitly that Skybird was likely not protected from Event Kills (like Remote Detonator).

You conclude that there was no N8 kill which I find spurious when RR as solo scum can easily just have killed Fuzzy that Night will no damage to their chances of victory (which would be minimal). And I disagree that grapes would be in any way cleared by a “Went nowhere” track given that he could be a Ninja (and I find it baffling you didn’t even consider that possibility) or that as a Leftover he can’t actually make the kill anyway.

Night 5 (you know, me being shot at) stabs your theory right in the gut given that RR apparently was well informed that I was protected. This again is you trying to dismiss what you can’t explain logically.

There are tons of other nit-pics I could make (you don’t even consider that DGB could have wrestled the kill away from scum to kill Klingon N2 which puts your logic train in doubt or that Scum Mastermind RR would probably not have shot farside if it wasn’t a lock kill) but I don’t want to spend time hitting all of them. But there is enough there that points (IMO, anyway) from you concluding RR is scum and trying to fashion a narrative that points to him as opposed to really taking in what is known.

Finally there is no requirement that a “Scum Mastermind” even exists. Random distribution of roles could just as easily land us with no player who can fill that architype being distributed a scum role.

At the end of the day if RR really is Solo remaining scum he’s doomed. You are going to be breathing down his neck for as long as you are alive feasting for his blood. And killing you just extends the amount of Nights he might draw that game ending Bubble. So given I’m not convinced by your cases and logic I don’t see a need to accelerate his removed when worst case he is on borrowed time anyway.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOI
if we lynch Grapes than you will bubble either me or RR......Bc the best plan for town is to have Gem bubble s scum candidate......

Grapes isn't getting lynched on this short a fuse ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh and as usual -

Mod - I am V/LA from 4:30 EST today until Monday morning as per norm.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It does make it so reaching 4p without losing will automatically conftown those slots that had been bubbled, BUT it leaves open the possibility of said loss occurring in the first place.

Um no. 4 players left and the game not ending simply means that there is only 1 scum alive. A second scum could be bubbled ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

No no. You misunderstand. I mean if nobody is currently bubbled, then at 4 alive it means anyone who had been bubbled since shiro was bubbled while SS was lynched is confirmed as town, because if there were two scum remaining in game town would lose.

-Cerb

Ah, yes I agree with that statement. My mistake.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well the game is finally over … yay!

Good job with the Modding Varsoon. I know there was a good deal of recrimination in the Dead Thread but for a game with such huge complexity (and it was probably about 2.75 times as complex as most normally complex Large Themes) the fact that the only significant hiccup was the incorrect activation of Creature’s (I think, been too long at this point to remember for certain) ability when allied with Snarky Snowman is a testament to how well you actually did. I’ll be nominating this game for Paperback Writer in the next day or so … regardless of anything else the Flavor Write-ups and Action Results were excellently executed and well matched to the source material.

On the other side I don’t think there is really any way to judge if this game was “balanced”. It is just too complicated to effectively make that assessment. I think I said this in the Dead PT but Varsoon I think your games would be received 1000x more positively if you dialed back the complexity by about 2.5 levels. I know you may enjoy the creation process but maybe think about adding maybe one new wrinkle per game as opposed to working on multiple facets that might be considered “non-standard”. You do a good job but the complexity window you aimed for here (and Bloodborne) ended up making your job as a GM much harder on yourself than perhaps it needs to be.

I think frankly that no side played a clean game and there were enough mistakes made by pretty much every faction and player that sour grapes are not warranted. I don’t really care that the Gems lost due to the Survivor mechanic because scum was defeated and that was how I approached playing the game. I wish certain actions had been taken to have accelerated it by a couple of Days that would have let the Gems also win but c’est la via …

@Mastin

– congratulations on (finally) making the correct choice. What I said in the Dead QT still stands … I will do my honest best to avoid games you are committed to and hope you will reciprocate. Thank you!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna is an example of the worst shit on this site. The people with older join dates are always trying to tell people how to play and are super preachy judgy assholes to newer people. It's like gigantic e-dick slapping. Some of the worst people on this site are among the ones with older join dates who think that entitles them to be god of mafia and dictate to others how to play. To my knowledge I've never played with that guy before, and this game makes me never want to play with him again.

@Drixx

- I will certainly make sure to keep my "worst shit on site" self out of games that you are commited to first also.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fyi, it's unlikely that drixx will avoid doing things he wants to do just to avoid you. He's not one to give someone else power over him.

Oh that wasn't meant as a request of him, just a statement. I know better than to expect effort from whiny self-entitled special snowflakes ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Drixx/Magna, I would love your feedback.

Titus I’ll have to look back for you because you’ve been dead so long that I barely remember that part of the game now. Fuzzy recollection says that I had little issue with your approach. It may take me til Monday but I’m PM you my thoughts.

--

So please accept my sincere apology for the attack. Whatever it was that irritated me caused me to jump to a false conclusion about you. I'm honest though and will freely admit that it was in fact a false conclusion so yeah. My bad.

No need to apologize. If fact I would prefer you don’t. It doesn’t hurt my feelings.

My acknowledgement that it would be best if I try not to cross your path in the future is not about feelings but toxicity. I long ago made it a rule that if I found someone who generally was toxic when mixed with me in games to actively disengage from playing games with them whenever possible. This rule has served me well and I think helped to keep games overall more enjoyable for the general public on MS.

Now this list changes over time. For many years Fate was number 1 on this list. Over time we’ve come to an understanding and he’s no longer someone I watch out for. Most of players from the old days who were on my list are no longer around. But when I find that someone new needs to go on the list I put them there and try to keep MS a better overall place.

There’s an old saying “You are what you do when no-one is watching”. I personally believe in this saying. In fact I started a Mafia Discussion thread basically saying “All PTs should be released at game end” based on that saying. Because my feeling is that anything you say in a PT you shouldn’t have any trouble saying in a regular game thread. I’ve seen arguments to the contrary “It’s just blowing off steam” being the most common one. Which I understand but disagree with. If you are willing to say something in a PT it shows a level of vitriol towards that person. I don’t see any benefit of hiding it. All it leads to is a progressively worse cycle of toxicity between the players.

Clearly you reacted to me in some fashion at a level that isn’t healthy for us to cross paths in the future to my judgement. For both our own betterments and the betterment of ever of everyone else who would be in those games.

I don’t bear you any ill will and wish you the best with your games. But rather than risk the underlying toxicity between us simmer and boil I’ll keep my eye out and make sure to not cross your path to the best of my ability.