Mini 536: Heroes Smalltown. Game Over!

[Adele]

Additionally, he seems to be testing the waters here, in his last post. To me, the last post almost screams

Am I going to be able to misslynch this guy, or should I move on to someone else.

I'll admit that a lot of this is influenced by the fact that I don't think the case against oman is very strong. But I think the case against shaft.ed is there regardless of it you think Oman is scum or not. (could be aggressive bussing)

I agree with TSQ, in that the post referred to here (#299) does seem a bit "Oman is wrong, Oman is wrong, Oman is wrong, let's kill Oman".

shaft.ed is voting me based on my role, mostly, which is interesting, as I chose it before i got my alignment.

And therefore independent of your alignment. He might be voting for you because your role with a 2/3 chance of town, 1/3 chance of evil, works out as being damaging to the town on average - this may be valid, there may be roles that the town'd be better off not having in the mix but is of value if you're assured the role is on your team (which you, when you picked the role, were assured). People are therefore likely to have a different view on the benignity of their roles than others will.

Besides:

shaft.ed isn't voting you solely on your role. Read his most recent post.

QFT,ETIJ

CKD, what you're also missing is that we have two scum groups here who are interested in destroying the other. Thus even scum aligned investigative roles may serve the town's interest if they can nail down the other scum group.

PLUS a person with investigations may have to present investigative results and face the choice between giving the town useful (reliable) information or (this is the really sweet part) false information, running the (very real) risk of getting found out (it's almost like they're presenting an investigation result on themself).

Speaking of, can I make a LAL request? I've been in games where scum have gambited again and again, lying over and over and the town takes them at their word still. I'd like as many players as possible - especially investigative players - to make a commitment to

not lie

, and a corollary commitment from as many as possible to enforce this by agreeing that if someone is caught in a lie

they are the priority lynch

. In this setup, it'd be too easy to have conspiracy-within-conspiracy and "oh I said that to draw him out now you know he's scum" bullcrap. Will people please, even if you'll let people off lying usually (Me=sad panda) not do the same here?

[shaft.ed]

well, then I guess I am lucky my vote isnt on an investigatvie role, now arent I?

So you agree that we shouldn't lynch investigative roles D1, and vote for me because I don't think we should lynch investigative roles D1.

Speaking of, can I make a LAL request?

I think LAL is certainly a protown strategy in this game (if not all).

[Thestatusquo]

Adele, I disagree too strongly with the LAL meta. If someone is caught in a lie, I will evaluate it on a case by case basis.

[curiouskarmadog]

well, then I guess I am lucky my vote isnt on an investigatvie role, now arent I?

So you agree that we shouldn't lynch investigative roles D1, and vote for me because I don't think we should lynch investigative roles D1.

it was sarcasm or was it not apparent enough?

[mathcam]

Adele, I disagree too strongly with the LAL meta. If someone is caught in a lie, I will evaluate it on a case by case basis.

I too am quite anti-LAL, at least as a general policy. On the other hand, I don't think I have a philosophical objection with us as a collective agreeing not to pull the kind of antics Adele describes. Back on the first hand, I'm not yet convinced this is our best strategy -- admittedly this will cut down on confusion, on which the mafia thrive, but it also eliminates a lot of interesting pro-town tactics which can catch scum. I can certainly understand a preference for not being confused, but I think I'd need a little more than that to propose a ban. Adele, do you have a more specific argument?

Cam

[davidangelsummers]

I find your play to be pro-town while ZONACE's is anti-town, but I've already decided I'm giving a pass to the investigative roles regardless of alignment for D1 unless they do something that is incredibly scummy today.

it is statements like this that other me. "Regardless of alignment." How do you know who is what? But then you might vote them if they act scummy? This seems like you know who is scum and who is not, but wont vote anyone until the act scummy.

I dont care who has what role, if someone is scummy, we lynch them, no one gets a pass.

Vote shaft.ed

Are you anti protect? You have voted for a protect role and now you have voted for the role that could be used to protect twice? on just todays evidence?
Does not sound so pro town to me ..
can we have a vote count?

[curiouskarmadog]

spin it whatever way you need to, If I think somehting is scummy it will get my vote...I dont care about who has what role.

[mathcam]

If I think somehting is scummy it will get my vote...I dont care about who has what role.

Then I would like to gently encourage you to think more about your best strategy in this game. If there were a role

"You are pro-town. If you are alive at the end of day 1, then the town loses."

certainly you would agree to lynch that person day 1, no? It's not an injustice to this player, as the town is simply following their best strategy, and if you went off voting for someone else because they appeared scummier, you'd be shooting yourself in your foot. This particular example is an obvious exaggeration to make a point, but certainly you must agree that some of the roles in this game are more inherently detrimental to the town than others. All that's being proposed (by me, and others) is the fairly reasonable suggestion that you don't completely ignore the role of the role (heh) in determining the merits of who to lynch -- exactly what you're insisting that you're doing in your above quote.

Cam

[Gorgon]

Well, LAL is a controversial policy, I guess. I can point to a game of mine (SPAG's Speed Mafia) where it pretty much led to a town loss. Basically, a townie false-claimed tracker and then withdrew his claim. Even though he had no real reason to withdraw his claim as scum, he got lynched in the end. It's a little more complicated than this, though, but a no holds barred LAL policy would definitely have caused the town to lose that one.

Anyway, what Adele is proposing is that people make a commitment not to lie, on pain of being lynched. This is different from a regular LAL policy, since it's a contract that people agree with beforehand ... "If I lie, you can lynch me". It doesn't even have to be something that everyone commits to; if someone wants to leave the option of lying open, they can just say so right now.

For what it's worth, I myself can easily commit to not lying, since I don't have anything to lie about. I plan to just not disclose when I phase out, so no lies are necessary. I'm sure you will agree that this is the best way for me to use my power (Just want to be sure everyone agrees with this).

Speaking of LAL, the last L can also stand for Lurker. This reminds me that we have a pretty major lurker in this game; Zindaras. He has contributed

nothing

to this game so far. People shouldn't get away with this kind of behaviour. Something needs to be done about this.

Btw, I get why TSQ voted shaft.ed, and figured that was the reason before I asked him - tunneling on Oman. However, I also buy shaft.ed's explanation and find him to be consistent in his push against Oman. Oman's reaction to this so far certainly does nothing to make me happy about him.

Regarding ckd, I get his viewpoint. No one should get a completely free pass, regardless of role. Thing is, what's difficult here is that it's hard to be sure of anyone's alignment, especially D1. Hence the tendency to allow roles to influence our choices, which is the only solid information we have on the first day. For instance, shaft.ed's argument of letting the investigative roles live through the first night, as even if they're scum, they can only be useful against each other, makes sense to me.

[mathcam]

For what it's worth, I myself can easily commit to not lying, since I don't have anything to lie about. I plan to just not disclose when I phase out, so no lies are necessary. I'm sure you will agree that this is the best way for me to use my power (Just want to be sure everyone agrees with this).

I agree that this is the best use of your power. I too have little to gain by lying about whether I did or did not just explode.

Cam

[shaft.ed]

I too have little to gain by lying about whether I did or did not just explode.

Liar

In all seriousness, you could lie if you try to explode but are blocked by JDodge or CKD. But a) I doubt you'll explode at night and b) there'd be no way to tell if you were lying or not unless you got tracked/watched (or maybe not even then).

Seol minor clarification
Since Jailkeeping and Dampaning occur before Power usage, will powers leave a "trail" if they are effectively blocked?

[mathcam]

Pssht! I only claimed I wouldn't lie about whether or not I had already exploded. But fair point about me lying about other things.

Cam

[Thestatusquo]

I have much to lie about.

[Oman]

I will lie through my teeth if i feel it gives me a better chance at winning this game.

[shaft.ed]

wow another contentless post from Oman.

Are you going to address this ever?

Shaft.ed - It is a bad idea to give scum investigative powers. Why? because we'll TRUST her. And trusting scum is not a good move.

Oman this argument is silly at best. I have already pointed out that when scum make up investigation results there will be an obvious situation where someone is lying and thus scum are unlikely to make it out of such a situation unscathed. Also you didn't even address the part where if Adele is anti-town she can be passed some dangerous powers from her scum buddies. If we give her investigative powers she will have to answer as to why those were not used, or make up investigation results. I think this could conceivably neutralize the risk of her receiving dangerous powers from her scum buddies.

Given the conversation the two of you had about passing your power to her I'm a bit suspicious of this situation. Adele would you care to comment?

[Oman]

Thats a good point, but I beleive mine stands as well. I'm fine with giving her powers if people agree not to act blindly on the results.

[ZONEACE]

Ok I got prodded, sorry bout not being here guys, the last few days have been a little weird, i got stranded at a friends house cause of the weather, etc etc. But I'm back.

I still think No Lynch is the way to go today. But Oman is starting to look suspicious to me. He seems to be making a concerted effort to assert his townliness. I've noticed a handful of posts that havee pretty much said "hai guys im town." Saying that isn't exceptionally scummy, but the repetition seems to be almost from desperation. so

FOS oman

but my unless something drastic happens my vote will be staying where it is until the end of the day.

[Thestatusquo]

Could you please respond to my last question of you?

[ZONEACE]

oh lord, you're still demanding answers from me? Could you maybe repost the question since i have no clue what your talking about anymore. I thought we had all moved on.

[Thestatusquo]

Okay, that wasn't my point. I didn't want people to comment on the me-Zone interaction because of the oog implications. i wanted people to comment because I thought it was incredibly game relevant. I would continue playing this game only if Zoneace will stop trying to pass off every action I make as somehow having to do with him. Otherwise, I am out of here. Zoneace, you willing to do that?

Willing to do that?

[ZONEACE]

I'm not TRYING to pass off every action you make as somehow having to do with me, most of them genuinely seem like they do have something to do with me.

[Thestatusquo]

Well...I mean OOG. Am I allowed to find you legitimately suspicious in this game? You seem to think not.

[shaft.ed]

Actually TSQ I found Zonace's assesment of your vote well within reason. If anyone is bringing in OOG feelings it seems to be you. Your not the only one Zonace has blown off in this game btw.

[YvonneSeer]

I won't lie about my results, that's for sure.

Anyway, most of you keep mentioning passing the investigative powers to Adele. Mind telling me how we go about doing that without coordination?

[Thestatusquo]

I think we need to get down to lynching someone for today. I will post the people I am willing to lynch, and why, and the people I am not willing to lynch, and why, later today. I suggest everyone else do the same, or, if you're like zoneace, do the same for NL.