Ythill,
I want to start this by saying that you haven’t cost this game a player. I haven’t made it past my first day of any of the games I’m in and I’ve already been called retarded, silly, imprecise, defensive, a “last poster”, nitpicky, a liar in all four I think, a twister of words, and, perhaps most unkindly, not funny. Northjayhawk’s leaving had everything to do with him and nothing with you. Nothing. Quitting a Mafia game because someone called you a liar is precisely the same thing as quitting a football game because someone tried to knock you down.
It is partly because of the Northjayhawk incident that I am not making more of this:
Ythill wrote: @ Justin: I think it might be a good idea for you and I to reread our spat. I may have confirmed a scumtell on you but that doesn't mean you are mafia. Certain key pieces of damning evidence are missing from a complete case against you, such as signs of partnership between you and the others I suspect. Though I understand that it is not an argument, I assure you that I am town, and wonder if you, through honest contemplation, can find the holes in your own case.
Since the day you posted it I’ve been debating with myself whether it was fair to even comment on it, because I could see how I might make this kind of post in the immediate aftermath of Northjayhawk’s quitting, if I were you. But to break down what Xtoxm didn’t about your post, your reference to our exchange as a spat suggests a less than serious scumhunting intent on your part, your expressed reasons for considering me less suspicious are nonexistent (because needing to try to establish hard links between players as a day one condition is bizarrely overreaching…you’re just linking maybes together and inferring guilt by other unconfirmed suspicions) and the whole tone is so conciliatory. I won’t include with the former you assuring me you’re town, because although I know a lot of people take that as some kind of huge scumtell, I don’t. It’s always struck me as either lazy or opportunistic scumhunting when people jumped on it.
And your answer to Xtoxm in 147 makes me feel even more uneasy over pushing you on anything in that post. It includes two bits which to me seem far too suggestive of a particular mindset not to take into account:
Ythill wrote: I'd left that discussion with something like "haha you have confirmed a scumtell"
and…
Ythill wrote: a conflict-based relationship between us would be counterproductive left as is.
Which to me read quite plausibly as “Didn’t you just see that guy quit the game because he said I was so mean?”.
Even allowing the above, though, I can’t take you up on your offer. I still think you worked to mislead the town with your initial actions toward MafiaSSK. The results of your actions spun suspicions about others that in my mind were based on faulty premises and made legitimate inquiry more difficult. You have consistently cast suspicion more than built cases, been vague in both your questions and suspicions in a way that allows you to take advantage of whatever answer you get, and not committed to anything in a way that would keep you from saying you meant something else later. And that plays to the carpet of all-inclusive excuses you laid earlier, and they didn’t have to be preemptive for you to lay them as cover for whatever behavior you engage in.
And to this end I have to point to a couple of the things you posted to Northjayhawk:
First this, from post 98:
Ythill wrote: I never inferred that you not responding to #19 was suspect, nor that I thought your #39 was in response to it. In fact, one of the things scummy about #39 was that it was “unbidden, off-topic.” Simply put, you interjected it into a conversation about something else entirely, as if to slip it in quietly. I wouldn’t defend what Xtoxm did, but it was pretty harmless coming from a claimed n00b early in the game, especially since he was personally involved in the questions.
I don’t like your active lurking, your defense that relies on a misread of my accusations, or the fact that you’ve skipped three of four questions directed at you.
Well, the only problem with this is that what you’re saying isn’t really true.
Here are your questions, from post 83:
Ythill wrote: @ Northjay: You have made only two posts. Your #16 was the first of two “random” votes I called out suspicions on (in #19). Your #39 was an unbidden, off-topic justification of that “random” vote. In this post you don’t remove the random vote or defend it as such, but instead register a weak argument in favor of it by repeating what Ho1den had already said in #25 & 29. I’ll quote #39 below for reference. Why did you feel the need to justify your vote? Why have you not addressed the other topics in this game? Do you have other reasons to think Xtoxm is scummy? Is he still the scummiest in your opinion?
Here is Northjayhawk’s answer:
Northjayhawk wrote:Ythill: I didnt bother replying to your first mention of three random votes, because it appeared obvious to me that my random vote (#2) had no possibility of suspicion at all. I did not read it as a question towards me, more like a comment or unspoken question directed at the one who cast the third vote. I ALWAYS go to random.org in every game I play (research me if you want) to pick my first vote. Before I actually post the number, I do check to see if it would be a bad random vote (e.g. your random would be the third vote on someone in a 7-player game). In a 12-player game, a 2nd random vote might be mildly valuable to test for an overreaction, but hardly something that needs to be justified in itself.
My 2nd post was not in response to your post at all, I had basically ignored and forgotten about your comment by then. The explanation was necessary because I reaffirmed my random vote as no longer being random along with an explanation, and I would expect everyone to justify their votes and share their thinking whether asked for or not when there is the slightest whiff of suspicion on their target.
Someone who is only reactive to accusations over a few day/night cycles would start to look scummy to me, most town players would actively look for scum at least occasionally without needing to first be asked to explain their votes and suspicions.
As for the reason itself, it should be clear. Whether someone thinks that a question against someone else is a good one or not, I cant think of any value to the town at all (and a lot of potential harm) to answer for or feed them a good answer.
This would appear to me to answer three of your four questions. He reiterates his reason for voting Xtoxm (crummy reason to me, but he does it) and by doing so pretty clearly indicates that this is still his reason. Maybe I would have prodded him a bit by saying something like “So then there isn’t anything else?” but going from this into just accusing him of not answering looks like hunting a victim more than trying to determine if he’s scum. He is very direct in explaining why he felt the need to justify his vote, and the fact that he is still choosing to vote Xtoxm should be a pretty clear answer as to who he finds scummiest. The only question his post doesn’t offer his thinking about is why he hasn’t commented on anything else in thread.
I mean in my mind there was even a pretty big suspicious statement in his answer to test him on, this:
Northjayhawk wrote:Someone who is only reactive to accusations over a few day/night cycles would start to look scummy to me, most town players would actively look for scum at least occasionally without needing to first be asked to explain their votes and suspicions.
Which almost reads as Northjayhawk saying “can’t you see my post 39 was made so that I give the bare appearance of being involved”. But you don’t call him out on this, or ask directly for clarification of his answer about Xtoxm, or ask for clarification for the part of his defense “that relies on a misread of my accusations”, which given your mentioning of your post (19) in your own post could very easily have been an innocent misinterpretation. You instead announce as a given that Northjayhawk was evasive and unresponsive, as though by saying it you can make it true.
Then, when he does respond, you do this in your post 114:
Ythill wrote:Digging yourself deeper here. I’ve read both of your other games. I’ve seen you post more earlier and with much less to go on. Why the lie about your playstyle? Note that since your other games are ongoing, it is not appropriate for us to argue the specifics of them, which is why I’m being vague. Anyone who is curious can go read for themselves.
At this juncture, I don’t see you clearing yourself with an argument. We should probably move on to other topics. As I’ve said, I see no reason to convince others of your scumminess at this point. We still have lots of information to gather before anything like a lynch, and that means there’s still time for you to start playing like town.
So you accuse Northjayhawk of lying based on a meta that “it is not appropriate for us to argue the specifics of”. Nice. Kind of hard for him to defend himself on this, huh? No matter what the truth is. Because he’d probably have to use specifics for that. And you point out that no matter what he says he can’t clear himself. So you make this last, completely unfair attack, then try to make it the last word on the subject by saying nothing Northjayhawk says can matter and it’s time to move onto other topics.
Can you see why I have a hard time believing you’re town? So I’m sorry, I can’t take your offered hand of peace right now. Because this isn’t a spat to me. You have engaged, from almost the opening bell of the game, in what seems like very suspicious behavior to me. I have, and will continue to, look at other people. But you’re still the person I find most suspicious.
