Open 59 - Daytalk 12! (Game Over) before 545

[NabakovNabakov]

In any other game, I would see the issue with not reading your Role PM, but this is

Daytalk

for chissakes. Don't you think the first "Hey scumbuddy, let's wagon this dude" PM might be a tipoff?

So honestly, I don't know what JDodge was trying to accomplish by not reading his role, but chances are it was on principle (and not an attempt to improve his play), making his reaction also on principle.

Random Vote: kabenon007

(Constistently available for AIM chat)

[NabakovNabakov]

Fuck, did I miss the memo? I forgot this was open and therefore forgot, nay, didn't see that there were no power roles... shit, well, gotta re-think. My bad everyone... ignore the idiot.

Sarcastic?

The last post-elipsis phrase makes me think not.

also, I communicate exclusively by PM. I don't IM.

Then you might want to consider taking the defunct AIM address out of your profile.

I think that if there's somebody who isn't going to IM because they don't have an address (seriously unlikely but possible, and I think that was what was at issue in the first wave of this discussion), it doesn't impact their possible allignment one bit. It's not like that's a choice they made in order to help their play in Daytalk 12. However, I can't help but be suspicious of Adel who clearly has the capacity to IM, but chooses not to. Is IMing really that bad?

Personally, I think our resident Scumchatters (JDodge, SirT, Xyzzy) are just getting a case of cabin fever. Hell, we have players (Phate) who haven't even posted. Honestly, I think the biggest observation we can take out of it is how the Xyzzy wagon has grown

outside

of the base three.

Also,

UNVOTE

VOTE: XYZZY

I agree with all JDodge's points against him.

Unvote; Vote: Disciple Slayer

[NabakovNabakov]

Sorry for lack of activity guys

@Mizzy: Can't you come up with

something

better than that?

@Kab/Volkan/Adel: Why choose a random bandwagon, why not put a little effort into finding a meritorious bandwagon? At least try some after-the-fact justifications.

[NabakovNabakov]

*shrug*

I still like my vote on Disciple Slayer, and by extension, I dislike the xyzzy bandwagon.

It would appear my vote on DS is now on Mizzy, and yet my opinion hasn't changed.

[NabakovNabakov]

*shrug*

I still like my vote on Disciple Slayer, and by extension, I dislike the xyzzy bandwagon.

It would appear my vote on DS is now on Mizzy, and yet my opinion hasn't changed.

You could try, you know, bothering to talk to me. No one has even attempted to contact me, ask me anything, etc.

There's no harm in doing this on the board.

You can complain all you want that nobody has talked to you, but I have the sneaking suspicion that you wouldn't have anything to say. Given plenty of time and some (albiet a limited amount) of posting to analyze, you have done nothing but complain that there is nothing to do.

@Adel: Just out of curiousity, do you think Xyzzy is scum?

*Bonus* Why or why not?

[NabakovNabakov]

I'm very sorry for my total non-participation. I haven't had a lot of time for Mafia lately, and I dedicated nearly all that to a spectacular failure in Big Love. (Plus, Page 9 scared the shit out of me).

@Adel: Stop it.

A challenge for my growing pack of fleas: Find me a question that I either dodged, or did not reasonably attempt to answer

Fair enough.

It was remarkably frustrating watching you dance about the issue of anti-town vs. scummy. Had I been participating at the time, I would have pounced immediately.

"Anti-town" is a very unwieldy phrase. When compared to "scum", it is quite difficult to type. Now, I realize that sometimes it can be worth the effort to type "anti-town", when you are making a purely tactical evaluation for example. "Anti-town" and "pro-town" are used simply to define actions which may or may not hurt the town. "Scum" and "town" are used to explain the intentions behind those actions. I am careful about these distinctions, and it appears that you are too.

Now here's the thing. You constantly call Adel's actions anti-town. That's fine, depending on your perspective, they probably are. You also voted Adel, putting her at L-2.

To me, those two don't gel. Usually, there's an intermediate step where you call the person scum. You wisely avioded that step because you realized Adel was only acting anti-town, not scummy. However, that doesn't mean you're still not going to twist your ankle in the missing step. Is it really reasonable to put Adel at L-2 because she's anti-town? You could have gotten the same information, had the same discussion, disarmed the same trap, and maybe not caught as much flak had you used a simple FoS. Instead, you choose to join an already popular bandwagon. You call it "pushing". I call it bullshit.

On topic, I think something like this was what JDodge was driving at when he asked. "What inclines you to believe she's scum now?" This isn't a case where you get to define your own terms. If you want to answer his question straight-up, you have to use his, "scum" and (by extension), "town". Maybe I missed it, but in your many walls of text, we got no definite evaluation on Adel's

allignment

. However, you could always provide us with one now.

I'll be back with opinions on more recent stuff later.

[NabakovNabakov]

You continue to not answer my question. You come close some times, but always back away at the last second. Is Adel scum or is Adel town? Utlimately, she can't be in between.

At that point, I considered scum claims utterly unforgivable, having never had an effective justification for them and knowing that they inherently cannot be a reasonable error.

This is just silliness. JDodge, a player who you have said you respect, just had a huge discussion with you in which he supported the validity of scum claims as a tactic. It's not even an issue of "error" vs. "correct play" (a silly notion anyway), it's an issue of playstyle. Having played several games with Adel, I would not put experimentation with traps or even pure bullshit past her, even when she's a townie. Either way, your personal opinion has no impact on the other player's intentions, which is what we're getting at in a discussion of allignment. I really don't care if you find scumclaims "unforgivable", does Adel?

I'm sure you would deny liking polcy lynches, but that seems to be just the way you play.

[NabakovNabakov]

@Adel: Seriously, now.

Policy lynching, in my understanding, is lynching because townies should not do something at all, no questions asked

But here's the crux. Did you ask any questions of Adel before voting her?

You seem to be incredibly unforgiving of townies. Something that you have decided (through a complex/convoluted chain of logic, I migh add) is anti-town suddenly becomes "unforgivable"? And it takes nearly a page of discussion with JDodge to get you to change this conception? Even on matters that begin to shade into playstyle, you deliniate into black and white and vote on that distinction, and it's so frustrating because I

know

you're a man who recognizes the difference between anti-town and scum. Do you really expect every player in the game to read your mind

and

agree with you?

Oh, and don't blow off the baby with the bathwater. So the part about JDodge is posdated. What about Adel's propensity for bullshit, on display even now? What about a player's natural propensity for being an idiot, on display even now?

[NabakovNabakov]

LAL is a lynching policy. Anything can be grounds for a policy lynch.

Before we go further with this, I want to make absolutely sure the terms are clear.

This is my conception of the thought process which led you to beleive Adel was scum:

1) Scumclaiming will never benefit the town.
2) This is true because my powers of logical reasoning tell me it is.
3) Because scumclaiming is anti-town, no townie should do it
4) Adel, who has scumclaimed, is therefore scum

Feel free to suggest any alterations, big or small.

[NabakovNabakov]

Define "justify" and we have a deal.

Does it mean providing a reason (convincing or not), or actually getting you to change your mind on the subject?

What if Adel had defended herself? What if she had been "wrong"?

[NabakovNabakov]

That reasonable explanation refutes 1) of my reasoning process - it gives me a reason as to why town might engage in that conduct.

Because a perfectly well meaning townie could be completely and totally wrong. The distinction between anti-town and scum is such an important one because it takes into account

human error

.

People are going to make mistakes. They're going to make choices you disagree with or are just plain poor, and they're going to do it in good conscience. That has to be accounted for.

Now, I've done an quick/dirty meta on you. If anybody cares to add to or contradict this, they may. Essentially, when you're town, you take error into account. You give people passes, cite their metas, pay attention to anti-town vs. scum. When you're scum yourself, you hide behind logic. You expect exacting perfection from every player and point it out when they don't attain it, nearly always equals a light or full accusation of them being scum. Kab was clumsy in the way he made it, but he might have a point.

Comments?

[NabakovNabakov]

"I might reasonably do that as town".

Change "I" to "Somebody", and you have my perspective. That's why I think you're too harsh.

But too harsh =/= scum, even when there's a meta on it.

Where's everybody else?

[NabakovNabakov]

@Phate: I noticed you voted Kab late D1, ostensibly for the reasons you just posted. What happened in the interim?

@Adel: Stop being intentionally misleading. Saying vollkan appears scummiest to me is like saying vollkan is the scummiest postern named vollkan; there's not a very large pool to choose from when it comes to players I've posted opinions on.

[NabakovNabakov]

I don't like the red-team, blue-team dynamic that's building in regards to kab and vollkan. It's giving the town tunnel-vision.

@Xtoxm: Can we have a little bit more? It makes me uneasy when replacements don't at least give a cursory overview of every player.

[NabakovNabakov]

Bah!

Good thing I checked before I read the backlog (posthumous sorry for lurking).