Mini 539: Game over

[Ythill]

Note: the above was cross-posted with Xtoxm.

[Xtoxm]

Or you've posted a false dichotomy. And a lame one at that. It's pretty obvious IQ boy isn't playing the VI and what, pray tell, would be the purpose of scum admitting intentional tell-dropping in response to someone putting him on the "nice" list? You're like a kid throwing a tantrum kuribo: long on aggression, short on sense. I think someone needs a time-out.


Thing is, I feel like kuribo believes he is scumhunting. This is just more shenanigans.

Mod: did we get prods on charter and Apyadg?

[qoute]Apyadg, MafiaSSK, charter, and Ho1den have been prodded.[/quote]

But still they haven't turned up

[Xtoxm]

oops I misspelt quote

[kuribo]

Or you've posted a false dichotomy. And a lame one at that. It's pretty obvious IQ boy isn't playing the VI and what, pray tell, would be the purpose of scum admitting intentional tell-dropping in response to someone putting him on the "nice" list? You're like a kid throwing a tantrum kuribo: long on aggression, short on sense. I think someone needs a time-out.


Thing is, I feel like kuribo believes he is scumhunting. This is just more shenanigans.

Poo Poo'ing my questioning with backhanded responses is hardly constructive.

The purpose would be exactly as I said--- you've said that you're very clever, and you could point back on it to say "If I was scum, why would I..."

When clearly, I could just as easily say "But, if you're town, why would you..."

Then we go around and around in WIFOM circles.

That said, I can't think of any conceivable reason you'd want to lead the town to believe you're scum by intentionally dropping scumtells. The scum already know you're not one of them if you're town, so there's no point in trying to fool them.

I think you got caught out with some minor scumtells, you made a still-unverifiable claim, and now you're trying to explain away your behavior. As I said, a townie shouldn't be dropping scumtells intentionally to mislead the town. (Since as I said before, the scum can't be mislead)

[Xtoxm]

I think he wanted some suspicion on him so he could claim

[kuribo]

I think he wanted some suspicion on him so he could claim

But that's not a pro-town thing to do. If he's a townie, he's hurting us.

Also, why are you answering for him?

[Xtoxm]

I think he wanted some suspicion on him so he could claim

But that's not a pro-town thing to do. If he's a townie, he's hurting us.

Also, why are you answering for him?

Because he already said it i'm repeating it for you

[Ythill]

_{@ Xtoxm: I never said that. You are answering for me, but you are mistaken.}

Kurbio, briefly calling pooh-pooh by its proper name is absolutely constructive at this juncture, but you’re obviously stuck on this ridiculous inquisition so I suppose I’ll have to address it more directly. Your latest post has either disproved the VI half of your false dichotomy or proved it to be rhetorical, so I’ll just address the second half.

WIFOM really is the I-am-right-and-you-are-wrong buzzword on this site, isn’t it? To be WIFOM, an argument must address one or more possible courses of action that

benefit the player accused of taking them

. There is zero benefit in me (as scum) making the “intentional scumtell” statement, for several reasons. (1) It was made in response to a player who was reading me as town, if I was trying to look innocent I wouldn’t have challenged his read at all. (2) In context the statement would only excuse past scumtells, from which I’ve already defended myself, there’s absolutely no reason for me to argue with a town read on me in order to vaguely suggest a second, weaker defense to past tells. (3) My claim already seems to have protected me from a D1 lynch, me making borderline scummy statements in order to further “prove” my innocence would be ludicrous.

Furthermore, if you must insist that I would somehow benefit from the above and therefore that the argument truly is WIFOM, remember that

you are the one who raised the question of my motives

. In this case, an (actual) WIFOM assertion only disproves

your accusation

.

I think he wanted some suspicion on him so he could claim

OMFG, LOL. What difference does it make why I did it? Nobody’s guesses can be proved or disproved. Neither can I prove the actuality of it, but I suppose I should probably register it here.

There is one very good reason for any power role to drop minor scumtells: avoiding the night kill. Note that, before the Incog case, I had been hoping to pull the trigger on my plan on D2, meaning I had to ensure that I would live through N1, meaning that I had to get a few votes from diligent scumhunters. There is another reason as well, but I’m not even going to bother getting that deep into theory here.

Repeating this

again

for Xtoxm’s benefit: the timing of my claim had

nothing

to do with the votes on me; it had

everything

to do with my argument vs. Incog. I would have made the claim at that point

even if nobody at all was voting me

. Everyone in this game seems stuck in the mindset that claims should only be made under the hammer, which is almost as ludicrous as kurbio’s attacks.

Now kurbio, I’m going to repeat this clearly, hopefully for the last time. I am comfortable with a D1 Ythill lynch. If you are, then vote me and shut the hell up about it. If you are not, then just shut the hell up about it. My death is almost a certainty either way. Your non-cases are doing nothing except distracting us from reading others.

[kuribo]

_{@ Xtoxm: I never said that. You are answering for me, but you are mistaken.}

Kurbio, briefly calling pooh-pooh by its proper name is absolutely constructive at this juncture, but you’re obviously stuck on this ridiculous inquisition so I suppose I’ll have to address it more directly. Your latest post has either disproved the VI half of your false dichotomy or proved it to be rhetorical, so I’ll just address the second half.

WIFOM really is the I-am-right-and-you-are-wrong buzzword on this site, isn’t it? To be WIFOM, an argument must address one or more possible courses of action that

benefit the player accused of taking them

. There is zero benefit in me (as scum) making the “intentional scumtell” statement, for several reasons. (1) It was made in response to a player who was reading me as town, if I was trying to look innocent I wouldn’t have challenged his read at all. (2) In context the statement would only excuse past scumtells, from which I’ve already defended myself, there’s absolutely no reason for me to argue with a town read on me in order to vaguely suggest a second, weaker defense to past tells. (3) My claim already seems to have protected me from a D1 lynch, me making borderline scummy statements in order to further “prove” my innocence would be ludicrous.

Furthermore, if you must insist that I would somehow benefit from the above and therefore that the argument truly is WIFOM, remember that

you are the one who raised the question of my motives

. In this case, an (actual) WIFOM assertion only disproves

your accusation

.

I think he wanted some suspicion on him so he could claim

OMFG, LOL. What difference does it make why I did it? Nobody’s guesses can be proved or disproved. Neither can I prove the actuality of it, but I suppose I should probably register it here.

There is one very good reason for any power role to drop minor scumtells: avoiding the night kill. Note that, before the Incog case, I had been hoping to pull the trigger on my plan on D2, meaning I had to ensure that I would live through N1, meaning that I had to get a few votes from diligent scumhunters. There is another reason as well, but I’m not even going to bother getting that deep into theory here.

Repeating this

again

for Xtoxm’s benefit: the timing of my claim had

nothing

to do with the votes on me; it had

everything

to do with my argument vs. Incog. I would have made the claim at that point

even if nobody at all was voting me

. Everyone in this game seems stuck in the mindset that claims should only be made under the hammer, which is almost as ludicrous as kurbio’s attacks.

Now kurbio, I’m going to repeat this clearly, hopefully for the last time. I am comfortable with a D1 Ythill lynch. If you are, then vote me and shut the hell up about it. If you are not, then just shut the hell up about it. My death is almost a certainty either way. Your non-cases are doing nothing except distracting us from reading others.

Just because you type alot doesn't mean you're right. And branding comments as "ludicrous" as a defense doesn't invalidate them, either.

WIFOM wasn't used as a "buzzword" in my case, it was meant in the terms of "If I was scum, I'd have done this instead of this," "Well, maybe you just wanted us to THINK that if you were scum, you'd have..." etc.

When you said "If I was scum, I wouldn't have dropped minor scumtells," that leads to "Yes, but if you ARE scum, you may want us to THINK that scum would never do that."

You can't expect us to turn off our brains and follow your lead.

Claims SHOULD be a last resort, because you're wasting an entire townie otherwise. (Yourself).

If you are town, getting yourself NK'd at this point serves us NO purpose other than, "see I told you I was town." And that doesn't lead us to scum either way--- if you're a townie, just because you argued with someone doesn't make them scum. They could just as easily be town who thought you were scum.


oh, and captain mcwordy shouldn't tell people to shut up

[Ythill]

Obviously you are either too unintelligent to understand logic, or pretending the same to be true. Either way, arguing with you is pointless. I will henceforth be ignoring everything you say about me (and probably the rest of your spew), at least until day two.

If anyone wants me to address anything kurbio brings up, please restate it.

[Xtoxm]

Sorry Ythill, clearly I was mistaken, I thought that's what you said.

[kuribo]

Obviously you are either too unintelligent to understand logic, or pretending the same to be true. Either way, arguing with you is pointless. I will henceforth be ignoring everything you say about me (and probably the rest of your spew), at least until day two.

If anyone wants me to address anything kurbio brings up, please restate it.

Yes, I'm sorry that I can't grasp the logic behind your "super secret pro-town plan."

We can't all work on the assumption that you have our best interests in mind. Maybe you should stop taking things so personally.

[kuribo]

Oh, and when your main defense is "How dare you question someone of my intelligence, you're stupid if you don't get what I'm doing," you're on shaky ground to begin with.

[Ythill]

Sorry Ythill, clearly I was mistaken, I thought that's what you said.

No problem. You've yet to make a mistake anyhwere near as bad as the one I made in #218.

Where's everyone else today?

[Xtoxm]

Well..There's the 4 inactives, 3 of which clearly need replacing for not responding to prod. DS hasn't shown his face since he collected a couple of votes. So as it stands their's only 7 of us, so we either need to reach a unanimous desicion on an inactive, and, unless one of the others turns up/is replaced, none of us 7 can die.

Think this will be a long day...

[Ythill]

Woooooot! We're immortal!

Actually, by "everyone else" I meant Justin, Incog, Shteven, and Claus. And I thought maybe DS would grace us with another drive-by scuntell.

For the record, I believe I've come to a solid read on Xtoxm and kurbio.

[Shteven]

I am comfortable with a D1 Ythill lynch.

[snip]

Obviously you are either too unintelligent to understand logic, or pretending the same to be true. Either way, arguing with you is pointless. I will henceforth be ignoring everything you say about me (and probably the rest of your spew), at least until day two.

If anyone wants me to address anything kuribo brings up, please restate it.

Ythill, I'm quite a bit disappointed here. Supporting your own lynch is always bad play; and the other quoting post pretty much qualifies as harassment imho. Your posting has degraded on this page, and I'm hoping you'll stop it. I've thought you overconfident for a while now, but you're starting to get far too self-righteous here.

You don't have to agree with or even like Kuribo, but saying "nah nah nah nah I'm right and you're wrong and I'M NOT LISTENING" has to be one of the most childish things I've seen here. I'd probably vote you if I believed in policy lynching.

[Ythill]

Jealous, Mr. TLDR? ...I genuinely believe that Ythill is a liability to the town... Unless you've planned "I hope I get lynched and screw the town," this has to be the worst plan I've ever heard.... to admit it is either drop-dead village idiocy or... Just because you type alot doesn't mean you're right... oh, and captain mcwordy shouldn't tell people to shut up... Yes, I'm sorry that I can't grasp the logic behind your "super secret pro-town plan." Maybe you should stop taking things so personally.

But I'm childish because I can't just sit here and read this sort of thing and not react? I'm a bad guy because I want to have logical two-way conversations about the game?

During my first game on mafiascum, I met a player who very much reminds me of kuribo. He called himself "aggressive" and shouted insultingly about how this and that were scummy, but refused to carry on actual conversations. If I dared to prove him wrong, he glazed over it by acting dense and continued his egomaniacal diatribe as if I hadn't spoken at all. Eventually, he degraded into calling me names and swearing at me until I replaced out of the game.

So, yeah, I might be a little touchy regarding this sort of thing.

Your posting has degraded on this page... you're starting to get far too self-righteous... saying "nah nah nah nah I'm right and you're wrong and I'M NOT LISTENING" has to be one of the most childish things I've seen here.

So this game is suddenly no longer about our roles? It's about us as people?

My questioning kurbio's intelligence (which I suggested might have been an act) was game related: he had slipped out of an argument by pretending not to understand it. My choice to ignore kuribo's accusations during D1 was game-related: I think the question of my guilt/innocence is spurious until tomorrow and so do a lot of you,

including kurbio

, or so he said anyway. Nothing about me ignoring him says "I'm right and [he is] wrong," it's just me trying to minimize the distractions. The "nah nah nah" part was yours alone.

I do apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings and admit that my tone hasn't been entirely free of ad hom but, really, can we concentrate on the game?

[kuribo]

I *am* concentrating on the game, it's not my fault you take it personally that I don't believe you have our best interest at heart.

That's the nature of this game.

Show me where I've "shouted insultingly."

The only person giving off egomaniacal diatrabes is you, Ythill. How dare anyone question your roleclaim, your intent, or your secret plan? That is the attitude you give off.

It's not a distraction, it's called "I think you're scum." How is pointing that out a distraction?

I openly questioned your intent and judgment, and you chose to ignore it, gloss over it, and finally question my intelligence.

If *THAT'S* not being over-defensive, I don't know what is.

The point being, if you're pro-town, you're doing a really poor job of it.

[Incognito]

Okay, I have some time now to answer these questions.

Incognito, I want to ask you a couple questions. If given your preference, would you still prefer a day one lynch of Ythill? And how would finding two bodies in the morning impact your suspicions of him?

No, I don't think we should lynch Ythill today. Even though I feel that the possibility of him being aligned on the side of the town seems slim to none, I'd rather not have the guy lynched today. If he really is the Vig I would have liked it if he would have kept his role to himself and saved his ability for another night when he may have been more sure of his read against another player, but we can't cry over spilled milk.

With regard to your second question, I'm thinking that finding two bodies the next day would definitely at least ease my suspicions of him a bit, although my suspicions probably wouldn't matter anymore since he's already made it clear that I would be his target. As you mentioned previously though, it wouldn't completely clear him as a definite Vig since the very small possibility of him being the Serial Killer could still hold true. I think the SK possibility is extremely small though since following Night 1, he would have to essentially no-kill every single night to maintain our trust while keeping himself alive all the way to the end of the game.

Non-Ythill stuff: I'd still like to see a response from Disciple Slayer with respect to the issues we've all raised against him, and I'm still distinctly unimpressed with Apyadg's contribution to the game. I should mention that he still continues to view this very forum (Little Italy) but is still unwilling to contribute to our game. I'm not sure if screenshots are allowed but they're probably unnecessary; you could look at his posting history to see that he's quite active in his Newbie game. He's not lurking as obviously as Disciple Slayer was earlier on but he

is

still lurking nevertheless.

[Incognito]

Ythill:

I'm letting you know that I still have a hard time believing your claim but I do have a few questions for you. These questions assume that you really are the Vig. After reading all of the reactions generated after your claim, do you still believe claiming was the right thing to do? You've now removed your vote and FoS from underneath all of your posts, but where do you currently stand with your issues against me? Also, you've indicated that you too are suspicious of Disciple Slayer, and you would vote against him but you're waiting for his response. What do you think of both me and Shteven voting against Disciple Slayer as of current? You were highly suspicious of both me and Shteven, so why have you not questioned the wagon formed on DS?

[Justin Playfair]

Ythill,

I could buy most of your reasoning in clearing Apyadg, although I think it’s a little…WIFOM. And I’m sorry, I insist on using WIFOM in the manner intended by the great Wallace Shawn (okay, the great William Goldman, but Wallace Shawn said the words). But I just don’t see any way to get from what he writes in post 47 to what he writes in post 92. I could maybe be persuaded enough to believe you changed his honest opinion enough to get him to take his vote off MafiaSSK, but I can’t believe your single post changed his whole view on leaving votes on players unless he was actively driving for a lynch. Especially since nothing in the post of yours he refers to addresses that.

I mean you’re welcome to believe that he really still wanted to lynch MafiaSSK when he wrote post 47, but in that case he was lying about his purposes then. Either way he needs to answer this himself, assuming he ever returns to us. And if he doesn’t, which at this point seems increasingly likely, this is probably a lost case regardless, except as background on his replacement.

One other thing:

Think about how this exchange with Kuribo began. It started with you asking for every player to tell you who they thought you should kill during the night. This was the genesis of the entire exchange.

I didn’t call you on this, because, God help me, I think I’m starting to understand how you think. Maybe from being so suspicious of you for so long, and being forced to confront the prospect that you might be town. But I can see two possible non-scum reasons why you asked for people to do this. I won’t point out what I think they could be now, to preserve whatever value they may have left, but if anyone wants to hear my guesses morning two, and I’m still here to tell them, just ask.

Here’s the thing, though. Neither of them were the reason you would have honestly asked this question, which would have been to gain a consensus from town as to who you should kill. And asking for that is suspicious, because we didn’t choose to kill two people on one day’s knowledge, and trying to force the rest of us to become a part of that choice, which on the face of it is what this request was doing, can also be seen as a way to make us complicit in its results. And asking in the way you did certainly could have given the impression that you wanted the day finished quickly. I mean to get to the person we would want to see you kill at night we would have to first arrive at who we absolutely wanted lynched.

And this is a problem. And maybe it’s only because that pistol’s heavy in your pocket, but you’re playing, if you’re not scum, like someone who is investigating by himself in a town with sheep and wolves. Town has to work together to win, even knowing the bad guys are among us, and secret strategies are not the best way to do this. By their very nature they attempt to misdirect, and since to be effective they have to seem to serve one purpose while actually serving another, they will often seem scummy. And someone is likely to call you out on it at the time you bring it up, even if they don’t intend to lynch you today, because accepting it in silence would imply consent. Pointing out seemingly scummy behavior is town’s job.

No reason to reply to the second part of this. I’m not voting you again today, and I just wanted to point out how your dust-up with Kuribo was born. And thank you.

[Justin Playfair]

Kuribo,

About this:

That said, I can't think of any conceivable reason you'd want to lead the town to believe you're scum by intentionally dropping scumtells. The scum already know you're not one of them if you're town, so there's no point in trying to fool them.

I think you got caught out with some minor scumtells, you made a still-unverifiable claim, and now you're trying to explain away your behavior. As I said, a townie shouldn't be dropping scumtells intentionally to mislead the town. (Since as I said before, the scum can't be mislead)

There is a school of thought that those who are thought most clearly town make the most attractive candidates for a night kill. And that if one has a power role one should not appear “too town” in order to protect that power.

I don’t particularly believe in this school of thought, for reasons which, at the moment, should be quite apparent. But there is that strategy out there.


Incognito,

Thank you for your answers. And thank you for the information about Apyadg.

[Justin Playfair]

Claus,

First let me thank you for calling me timid. My play has been called many things, but timid hasn’t been one of them. If you would be so kind could you give me some examples of my timid behavior? Or of not wanting to dirty my hands?

I know why I discussed possible false claims in this game, given the situation in which we have found ourselves, but I would love to read the three games you mentioned where this was done by scum. Would you mind directing me to those games?

Thank you for any information provided.

[kuribo]

There is a school of thought that those who are thought most clearly town make the most attractive candidates for a night kill. And that if one has a power role one should not appear “too town” in order to protect that power.

I don’t particularly believe in this school of thought, for reasons which, at the moment, should be quite apparent. But there is that strategy out there.

That's my way of thinking--- misleading the town is something that the town shouldn't do. Sure, you may avoid the NK by dropping scumtells, but you may not avoid the lynch.

What do you think of Xtoxm? I think I'd like a few opinions regarding the things I've pointed out, and his repeated defense of Ythill.