Mafia 74: Minimally Flavoured - Game over!

[hasdgfas]

I can totally see what you're saying. I know how you got there, and it's a very logical step. If you look at the context of that statement, I think you can see where I got my understanding of the quote.

[Mills]

It's obviously a subjective matter. I guess I can respect your understanding of it even if I don't agree with it.

[PJ.]

Confirm Vote:Mills

with a good ol'

FoS:Hasdgfas

The last half page struck as huge distancing about non-consequental bullshit.

[hasdgfas]

Did I vote him? FoS him? express any suspicion of him whatsoever besides saying that he possibly straw-manned? No, in fact I have liked most of what he said. We disagreed about this, but it was one point, and just because two people disagree does not mean they're automatically distancing.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

The last half page struck as huge distancing about non-consequental bullshit.

I have to disagree with Panzerjager here. Mills and Hasdgfas disagree on the content of Dark Ermac's post. (Post # 47). I find it very useful to discuss differences of opinion in this game. I can see both sides of the argument and I think both have valid points. What I find interesting is the silence of Dark Ermac. He is the one player who could clearly state which view point is correct, yet he has chosen to remain silent.
So far Dark Ermac has contributed very little to the game. In fact the post in question seems to be only worthwhile post he has made. His last post was on Dec 30:

Anyway, the Fonz and DS seem to be the most suspicious, but I'll go check over the previous few pages in a while.

He stated his suspicions, but gave no explanation. Dark Ermac is not helping find mafia with his lurking, or his unexplained suspicions. As a result, he has climbed my "suspicious persons list" to second place, after Disciple Slayer.

[egruntz]

After reading through the thread, I'll finally make a vote. Disciple Slayer, all you've been doing throughout the game is creating bandwagons, and getting a

little

too defensive. Therefore,

vote: Disciple Slayer

.

[PJ.]

Did I vote him? FoS him? express any suspicion of him whatsoever besides saying that he possibly straw-manned? No, in fact I have liked most of what he said. We disagreed about this, but it was one point, and just because two people disagree does not mean they're automatically distancing.

which exactly why I found it distancing because you guys simply didn't leave it and found it necessary to talk for half a page about post 47(which I took as Mills did), which was scummy, but Mills faced zero consequence anyway he answered the question. Making it non-consequental, and anyway you view that post, still makes it scummy, making the entire conversation about bullshit. And I know that two people disagreeing doesn't mean their distancing or I would have said BooKitty and The fonz were distancing.(yes, I wifomed, deal with it). The reason their is a difference between the arguements is because their arguement could have very well got one of them lynched based on response, or at best serious attention. Mills and your conversation(as stated) held no importance on anyones votes at all.

FoS: everyone voting for Diciple Slayer

Bandwagoning and calling Mills an idiot doesn't make him scum and it seems that people are just jumping on him cause he is an easy lynch.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm sure Disciple Slayer will show up to defend himself, he posted in another game earlier today.

[The Fonz]

hasdgfas- You're quite right. I read through your player-by-player, and got a strong 'Wow, this is like, the most wishy-washy thing ever' vibe because you didn't state any particularly strong suspects or votes. I forgot about the post further up the page. My apologies.

[Bookitty]

FoS: everyone voting for Diciple Slayer

Bandwagoning and calling Mills an idiot doesn't make him scum and it seems that people are just jumping on him cause he is an easy lynch.

Not why I'm voting for him. I didn't like his unreasoned vote for the Fonz (reasons to come later), and then his switch to me with a well reasoned argument, but all well after the egruntz situation was more or less discussed through. Do a reread of Disciple Slayer in isolation, and you'll see why I chose to vote him over Mills. His tone and level of participation have varied widely, but neither has been good.

The fact that Mills and Disciple Slayer had such a deep hostility toward each other early on, but now seem to have forgotten all about it, makes me think they're scum distancing. So Mills has not dropped off my scumlist. Quite the reverse.

[The Fonz]

FoS: everyone voting for Diciple Slayer

Bandwagoning and calling Mills an idiot doesn't make him scum and it seems that people are just jumping on him cause he is an easy lynch.

Not why I'm voting for him. I didn't like his unreasoned vote for the Fonz (reasons to come later), and then his switch to me with a well reasoned argument, but all well after the egruntz situation was more or less discussed through.

This, I think, is actually the best reason any DS voter has. The being annoying, lurky, and offensive thing is just who he is. Voting for someone on one side of a big row, then turning round and pretty much adopting that player's reasoning to vote the person on the other side of the argument, however, is a real WTF moment.

That said, I do still see the possibility of opportunism in Kitty's intitial Egruntz vote- i still find her more likely than average to be scum, she's just not in my top couple of suspects lately.

[Mills]

FoS: everyone voting for Diciple Slayer

Bandwagoning and calling Mills an idiot doesn't make him scum and it seems that people are just jumping on him cause he is an easy lynch.

Not why I'm voting for him. I didn't like his unreasoned vote for the Fonz (reasons to come later), and then his switch to me with a well reasoned argument, but all well after the egruntz situation was more or less discussed through. Do a reread of Disciple Slayer in isolation, and you'll see why I chose to vote him over Mills. His tone and level of participation have varied widely, but neither has been good.

The fact that Mills and Disciple Slayer had such a deep hostility toward each other early on, but now seem to have forgotten all about it, makes me think they're scum distancing. So Mills has not dropped off my scumlist. Quite the reverse.

I don't think a 'lack of hostility' proves anything of the sort since DS has stopped posting. I can't be hostile to him whether I want to or not. He isn't here!!

[Elias_the_thief]

Xyzzy replaces thedragonsprincess.

[Xylthixlm]

We're almost halfway to deadline, a bit over 2 weeks left. Hopefully we'll get a flurry of replacements, this pace is worrying me.

Disciple Slayer is scummy

and

his lack of activity is hurting the town. I hope that he will start being more active. If he doesn't, I think lynching him has a better than average chance of catching scum. I'm happy with my vote.

The being annoying, lurky, and offensive thing is just who he is.

I'd rather not metagame someone who I haven't played with before. Even if your metagame is correct, I don't see anyone else with a higher chance of being scum; and in the case of a tie I'd rather lynch the annoying, lurky, and offensive player. It's harder to tell if they're scum, they don't help the town as much, and if they're town they're more likely to be mislynched later.

[xyzzy]

What the hell is going on? Wonderful way to start off the game, guys!

I, personally, find the first day to be completely useless. It's happened many times: tons of discussion, just to get back where we started, and in the end we all just vote for no lynching.

On the first day, I think it'd be best to not lynch at all. If we just take out a random guess, we could end up hurting ourselves in the process.

I'm not voting for it just yet, to see if any discussion can be born from this; but seriously, stop voting randomly for idiotic reasons.

WHAT?!? "Hey, everyone, let's lose us some townies at night before we go on! Since, you know, day one is random, since it's a safe assumption that we don't have day abilities in the town and that we have any power in the town that can provide us with info at night! Yeah, that'll help

my scumbuddies

the town!"

FoS: egruntz

I agree but disagree with what people have been saying. I agree that the random voting stage of the game is ok, but I don't like the idea of a random lynch. By random voting it gets discussion going which helps us dig out people who give scummish vibes by what they've said. is that lynch always scum? no. but at least it isnt a bandwagon lynch based on no information whatsoever.

Quoting my replacee to say thaqt 1)I agree and 2)you have bad grammar.

Okay, not a joke vote.

unvote; vote egruntz

You may not agree with the random vote phase, but I really dislike your suggestion of a "no-lynch".

Just because you don't derive anything useful doesn't mean others don't or can't, and pushing for a no-lynch on day one (and your stated assumption is that there automatically WILL be one, which also tells me you haven't read many games here, if any) is in my view counterproductive and rather scummy. You're making a lot of assumptions about what will occur, and jumping to a conclusion without enough evidence.

Additionally, you're a killjoy.

Unvote, vote: BooKitty

Kitty, you're an experienced enough player. You must have noticed the 'townsperson' underneath his name, right?

New=/=exempt from suspicion

Do you think you can get more information from a dead body than from a live one?

Erhm, exactly my point. If we choose to lynch someone randomly, with the odds of 3-4/18 being mafia, there's a pretty good chance that we'll lynch one of our own people. If we skip the first round and only lose one of the town instead of two, then we can keep the town living longer.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't vote or lynch randomly. It'll most likely effect the town.

What conclusion do you feel I've rushed to?

Well, obviously you think I'm scum, since you voted for me. If not, then what a poor reason to vote for someone. All that I've said is that it'd be best to skip the lynch for the first day. Surely you shouldn't vote for me, just for stating my opinions?

That right there shows horrible quality in a mafia player.

Yeah, but we have no guarantee that night will provide us with useful info. Then we're just down another dead body with only slightly greater odds of hitting scum.

If your opinions are scummy it's prefectly valid to vote for you.

Look, random voting is an essential part of the game and I'm going to doubt anyone's mafia playing ability who doesn't realize it. It gets discussion going and then someone says something and it gets analyzed and then someone says something else and it get's analyzed. Like now, egruntz said "hey, guys we should no lynch" everyone reacted and now The Fonz said "he is a newbie so don't pay attention" These are two of the more important pieces of evidence right now(in my opinion) and both have happened due to the random voting phase, so quit your bitching, kthnx.

Second, I hate all this random lynch talk. We are not randomly lynching anyone. We are gonna decide via deliberation and democracy, thusly forcing people to make a decision. Discussion is good. Interaction between players mean things; Making it ignorant and irresponible to end day immediately with a random or No lynch. And if it was random, I'd much rather roll an 18 sided dice and lynch the player that's number comes up. That has much more of a chance a causing interaction between players then just saying okay guys, vote no lynch. Besides no lynch can't even defend himself.

Anyway, back to important things,

Vote: The fonz

You wrote off a newbie that obviously wasn't even a newbie and then you voted someone for attacking the guy's idea, which was obviously terrible.

P.S Thinking someone is scum is not the only reason to vote for someone, don't be so naive

P.S.S I think Fonz is scum

<3 Panzer

You had nothing else to say about that post. I'm not posting content for the rest of the game.

...Never mind.

First gather information,

then

vote or lay a FOS on someone.
That's how I'd do it.

But we have a limited amount of time to do that. May as well get all the data we can now.

Erhm, exactly my point. If we choose to lynch someone randomly, with the odds of 3-4/18 being mafia, there's a pretty good chance that we'll lynch one of

our own people

. If we skip the first round and only lose one of

the town

instead of two, then we can keep

the town

living longer.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't vote or lynch randomly. It'll most likely effect

the town.

Someone is trying too hard to appear protown.

Unvote, Vote liamcool

WIFOM, Xyl.

Since I don't feel like quoting everything he says (it's all scummy) I'll just

vote: the Fonz

and say that not suspecting newbies because they're new is retarded. Even if something is a "newbie tell", it still needs to be defended.

DS and Mills, stop fighting each other and vote egruntz.

Yes, after we lynch Fonz.

We have a fixed deadline and I really don't want to rush a lynch in the last week before it hits.

And it's better to rush a lynch now?

No, but we should have good ideas on who is scum before then. Hence, wagons.

sorry for the lack of posting guys but im back now. I still need to do a re-read but in reading this page Im not sure egruntz is scum.... he may just have a different play style then the rest of us. I've had a different playing style then the rest of the players in my previous game and ive had fingers pointed at me too.

No. Everyone plays differently, but that doesn't mean that tells based on play style are meaningless. Overall playstyles don't help, but game-by-game, it's a good thing to be suspicious of, if for no other reason than it provides pressure. Pressure is good.

Idea: Mills = Lyncher?

(just something that came to me just then)

Role fishing.

Are lynchers even possible in minimally flavoured games?

This is scummy. A bit.

Mills and Pirate both engage in role fishing. Not good!

FOS: Xylthixlm

No, not because he voted for me, but because he seems he wants to get the day done with, and skip right onto night. It's best to spend your time and gather the proper information before casting a vote, otherwise you could end up screwing your own team greatly. Why rush things when we've limited time, anyway? Why create a bandwagon just for the hell of it?

Not a scummy move, but something that grabbed my attention.

Hey,

Rudy Giuliani,

egruntz, stop flip-flopping on basic issues! Go see your first post. Then see this post.

But if we all can't agree on a definite mafia by that time, we'd best be off by not lynching at all, instead of taking our chances when it's, what, 3/18 against us?

But tomorrow, it'll be 3/17, or worse, and each day only gets us deeper in the hole until we HAVE to lynch scum or lose - a situation known as lylo. Once we reach this point, our odds of knowing who the scum are is the same zero.

@Egruntz, being a moron is not a playstyle.

Haha, and QFT.

Sufficiently bad idiots can be antitown without being scum.

But are they just antitown more than they're scum? I think it's more likely idiots will be scum.

...Fonz has been getting slightly more protown. This is good.

All right then. I have completed my reread and a couple of things jump out at me.
1: egruntz: I'm leaning towards townie at this point. No lynches are a terrible decision, but I think he seriously thinks it's best for the town, even though that may be wrong. He says it's his playstyle, and at this point I believe him. I'll be watching him closely because a playstyle like that throws up a red flag with me even if the rest of his posts look pro-town.

2: DS: This is the entirety of his posting

VOTE: OGML

Bandwagon to victory.

UNVOTE

VOTE: SNAPS THE PIRATE

Bandwagon to victory.

UNVOTE

VOTE: THE FONZ

More bandwagoning. Reasons to be given after Christmas.

I did a quick reread, and I'm not happy with how Bookitty jumped on egruntz for mentioning the term "No Lynch". egruntz wasn't really pushing for one, he just mentioned it. It seems like the sort of thing scum would do on day one: push for a mislynch on someone for nothing at all, really. So therefore,

UNVOTE

VOTE: BOOKITTY

Thank you, Elias. We need to keep these idiots in line.

Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to present Exhibit A: numbskull at work.

LOLOLOLOL BURNT

These lesser individuals are quite fond of the word "lol" and have a habit of chaining them one after the other, in capital letters. Excessive use of "lol" is a clear sign of inferior mental capabilities. We really can't do much other than pity the fools.

@Bookitty: I was just bandwagoning. I thought there was something against The Fonz, but after a reread, there wasn't anything.

Mills has an easy task. All he has to do is stop being a first-class idiot and we will get along fine.

Bandwagoning, Bandwagoning, Bandwagoning, Bandwagoning by another name, calling Mills an idiot, calling Mills an idiot, defending the fact that all he did was bandwagoning while calling Mills an idiot.

This is unacceptable no matter who you are. You definitely have to take part in this, and shameless bandwagoning and calling someone an idiot as all you do just should not happen. That is how scum play.

vote: Disciple Slayer

Patch15: Where is that taking part in this game that you promised us 3 days ago?

Momentarily I will have my short summary of everyone else in the game.
Just my basic thoughts on them after my re-read.

The cow speaks the truth.

FoS: DS

By far, egruntz is still the scummiest; he's changed his opinion multiple times based entirely off pressure, and has done a good job of disguising it, but he's not done anything protown. He's had one real opinion, a scummy one, and everything else has just been blind following.

Vote: egruntz

[PJ.]

Okay, I'll do the whole line of suspicion thing. Goes from most scummy to definite town.


Mills
Egruntz
Cow
The Fonz
Disciple Slayer
Patch15
the other lurkers that I haven't mentioned
everyone else
Elias
Me

[liamcool]

ZZ, you posted two votes in your post, who are you actually voting for?

[xyzzy]

oh, I did. Forgot to edit that out.

Unvote fonz, vote egruntz

/phail

[Bookitty]

@Panzerjager:

Why do you think Elias is town?

[Dark Ermac]

UNVOTE

VOTE: THE FONZ

More bandwagoning. Reasons to be given after Christmas.

...what reason?

All you've been doing since the beginning is bandwagon votes. Right now I believe that you are the most scummy, but I won't vote for you. I actually believe you to be a townie. It's hard to understand, but I've seen many games in which the idiot was lynched first, and just so happened to be town. So, everyone who is currently voting for DS: you can choose to either not lynch this townie, or you can lynch him anyway for fears of being taken advantage of by the mafia. Your choice.

[Xylthixlm]

Disciple Slayer is most likely to be scum.
Disciple Slayer is more likely than not to be town.
These two statements are not mutually exclusive. You should be basing your vote on the first, not the second.

[Xylthixlm]

Happy scumday Panzerjager.

curiouskarmadog's post 181 is making me suspicious. Instead of providing a justification for his vote, he attacks Mills for pointing it out. He is afraid people will think he's scummy. If the reason is scummy, not admitting it is even scummier.

FoS: curiouskarmadog

[Elias_the_thief]

The Seventh Official Flavorless Votecount:

Disciple Slayer - 6

(Mills, Snaps the pirate, Xylthixlm, Bookitty, Hasdgfas, egruntz)

Mills - 2

(curiouskarmadog, panzerjager)

OhGodMyLife - 2

(the fonz, Phate)

Bookitty - 1

(Disciple Slayer)

egruntz - 1

(Xyzzy)

Xylthixlm - 1

(OhGodMyLife)

Snaps the pirate - 0

The Fonz - 0

liamcool - 0

panzerjager - 0

Xyzzy - 0

Hasdgfas - 0

Sangy - 0

curiouskarmadog - 0

Phate - 0

SensFan - 0

Dark Ermac - 0

patch15 - 0

Nobody - 5

(SensFan, Dark Ermac, patch15, sangy, liamcool)

With 18 alive, it will take 10 to lynch.

---

Prods have been sent out to inactives: Sensfan, DiscipleSlayer, Sangy and Patch15 (and accidentally active: egruntz).


Reminder: Deadline for today will be

January 20th

at 10 PM, approximately two weeks from today.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

All you've been doing since the beginning is bandwagon votes. Right now I believe that you are the most scummy, but I won't vote for you. I actually believe you to be a townie. It's hard to understand, but I've seen many games in which the idiot was lynched first, and just so happened to be town. So, everyone who is currently voting for DS: you can choose to either not lynch this townie, or you can lynch him anyway for fears of being taken advantage of by the mafia. Your choice.

This post seems to me like Dark Ermac KNOWS Disciple Slayer is a townie. How does he know this? Only the mafia is sure of everyone’s alignment. Everything Disciple Slayer has done so far looks suspicions. Yet, Dark Ermac, while admitting Disciple Slayer is acting scummy, he defends him. Why?

[Dark Ermac]

Disciple Slayer is most likely to be scum.
Disciple Slayer is more likely than not to be town.
These two statements are not mutually exclusive. You should be basing your vote on the first, not the second.

Yes, but the first option is almost like the Witch Trials. Town thinks he/she is witch, witch dies, "o shit, we lost a townie."

It's better to think about the vote than it is to just vote for them because they seem scummy. Believe me when I say this: he's town. I may not be 100% accurate, but from past experiences I know this.