Open 59 - Daytalk 12! (Game Over) before 545

[Incognito]

Rofl. That's a lot of stuff on page 1 already.

Vote: Phate

It was my fate to randomly vote against him.

Also with regard to everything that happened on Page 1, according to Oman's Rule 07, this really shouldn't be discussed in scumchat, so you guys may want to watch out for a modkill ya know.

[Incognito]

Rofl. That's a lot of stuff on page 1 already.

Vote: Phate

It was my fate to randomly vote against him.

Also with regard to everything that happened on Page 1, according to Oman's Rule 07, this really shouldn't be discussed in scumchat, so you guys may want to watch out for a modkill ya know.

Why do you want people modkilled?

Yes, why? This struck me as quite odd.

How is saying "you may want to watch out for a modkill" the same as saying, "I want people to be modkilled"?

[Incognito]

Why do you think people who break that rule will be modkilled and not replaced or some other such thing?

The only form of punishment that Oman had listed in his rules was Summon Nature's Modkill V on the person breaking one of his rules. I figured that form of punishment would essentially apply to any rule that was broken by someone.

xyzzy, I find this statement strange:

JDodge, if I were scum, talking to me could only lead to one thing - a total slip-up. Why wouldn't you want that?

Why would talking to scum only lead to one and only one thing? I think JDodge makes a fair point in stating that the scum could trick town in private conversations. And actually, I believe that tricking town is the more likely scenario as opposed to totally slipping up.

[Incognito]

JDodge: After thinking about what has been mentioned about you not wanting to know your role PM, I realized one pretty important point (I believe NabakovNabakov already mentioned this also): Whether or not the mod went ahead and told you your role, you were bound to find out eventually considering the fact that this set-up is Daytalk. If you had a scum role, I would guess that one of your scum partners would have attempted to communicate with you eventually through pm or messenger. Therefore I too am forced to question whether or not your reaction to Oman telling you your role was really necessary, even though you have mentioned that it was due to him removing your right to play the game the way you wished to.

xyzzy: Was what you mentioned here:

JDodge, the whole point of private communication is that you can see things people don't normally show - if I'm asking you questions in a chat and you're taking 5 minutes to answer, I won't trust your answer.

a hypothetical situation or did this actually occur? Also could you please answer my question from Post 54?

[Incognito]

With regard to the IM client vs. private message thing, I personally don't think the outcome of this game will be determined by either one; I think this game purely boils down to vote analysis and progression of time (as people's alignments are revealed) especially since there aren't any power roles. Maybe later on in the game the PM and IM thing that xyzzy and others mention may play a greater factor but right now, I don't think it does.

With regard to Sir Tornado's question, I have a few questions of my own.

Sir T

: Do you think there is a solid case against xyzzy? He's not in any immediate trouble at the moment as he's only at L-3, but you also are one of the people on the bandwagon.

kabenon007

: Why did you specifically choose to join the xyzzy wagon as opposed to the JDodge one? You mentioned that you will refrain from joining JDodge's wagon but you still joined a wagon nevertheless. And since my random vote clearly isn't doing anything on Phate who has yet to say anything, I would like to

unvote

and

Vote: kabenon007.

[Incognito]

Where is everyone? x_x

[Incognito]

Welcome, vollkan.

With regard to daytalking, I personally haven't been daytalking either. I thought that all or most of the Day 1 stuff should happen in the thread and then maybe as days progress, the daytalking mechanism might be more useful as we get a feel for each other more. It's hard to begin daytalking though when you don't know who to semi-trust and when your suspicions are minimal.

Oman-mod, according to Disciple Slayer's sig, it looks like we need a replacement for him.

Thanks, I missed that. - Mod

[Incognito]

I'm still around. Mizzy, do you have any thoughts after your read?

[Incognito]

Mod:

Could we please get a vote count?

Adel, that's twice now that you've changed your vote from one player to another with absolutely no explanation. While I personally have felt like xyzzy has mentioned some things in the thread that make me question his alignment, my opinions about you are even more negative since your play has seemed opportunistic.

Unvote; Vote: Adel

[Incognito]

sounds to me like our random wagon has a scumbuddy trying to get an alternative wagon going.

If I've been following along with the thread correctly, then I know that your vote on xyzzy actually placed him at L-1. I fail to see how a wagon can maintain its randomness when a player is being placed that close to a lynch. When I see something that strikes me as off, I'm not just gonna sit there and allow it to happen; I'll try and voice my opinion about it. I find your deflective suspicion towards me to be a very interesting response.

[Incognito]

Meh, if it comes down to the final seconds until deadline, I'll lend my vote to the xyzzy wagon just so we could end the day with a lynch. It would be sweet if people could actually post though... Deadline's in like 5 days or so.

[Incognito]

or we could just lynch xyzzy and call it a day...

Adel, I can't tell if your posts are scummy or just coming from a townie with really poor logic. And since your logic is so crystalline, I have a hard time believing it's the latter. If we just lynch xyzzy and call it a day, what kind of solid information would we have to go by tomorrow if he happens to come up town? I could see the solid amount of information derived if he comes up scum but not the inverse. To me, a xyzzy-town lynch leaves too much room for a massive cop-out from everyone involved in the xyzzy wagon. The only practical thing I could see coming out of it from xyzzy-town is the decreased scope we have to deal with to find the scum, which is why I would lend my vote to the wagon if it came down to the wire. The obvious practicality of it would be seen if he does happen to come up scum. Right now though, I'm really liking my Adel vote.

[Incognito]

Mizzy, did you send a request to me for Yahoo? I didn't see anything last time I checked. I'm gonna list my AIM address also since that seems to be what most people use here.

[Incognito]

Adel, your attitude of "let's just lynch randomly to see what it gets us" is super-scummy. Why, specifically, is that a good idea? Because I can't see ANY reason to random lynch. My death wouldn't even provide the town any useful info.

Unvote, vote Adel

Xyzzy, why did you wait so long to call Adel out about this?

Hi everybody!

hi everybody

Do you ever say anything else besides this?

[Incognito]

Adel, you were pushing way too hard for that xyzzy lynch and now that he's turned up town, I remain as suspicious of you today as I was yesterday.

Vote: Adel

Could you explain who or what this little birdy was that told you that xyzzy was scum as you mentioned previously?

@Adel: Just out of curiousity, do you think Xyzzy is scum?

*Bonus* Why or why not?

Yes, sorta, maybe. Hopefully. He did cast a OMGUS vote on me. Besides a little bird told me that he was scum, and that little bird was correct 12.34 times out of the last 14. That is pretty good.

[Incognito]

Could you explain who or what this little birdy was that told you that xyzzy was scum as you mentioned previously?

either ralph or justin, I can't remember which.

Ummm... Who are they? I don't know any of these people on a first name basis.

[Incognito]

I believe that ralph and justen are their first names.

Yeah, I know but I mean I don't know any of the people in this game by their first names. Just usernames.

[Incognito]

I said

people

not

players

! stoooooooooopider.

[Incognito]

Adel, just what exactly are you trying to accomplish by acting the way you are? If you're town, I can't think of any reasons for why your actions might actually be beneficial towards helping us out in any way. There's no village idiot in this game but yet you seem to be trying to set yourself up as this unproductive, village idiot character. I

can

, however, think of possible benefits for acting this way if you're scum.

In other news, I'm finding myself having a hard time believing that all six of the people who were originally on the xyzzy wagon are pro-town. xyzzy peeps, what are your feelings about one another?

[Incognito]

Yay, discussion!

My two cents: I think you guys seem to be missing or overlooking the fact that Adel's scum claim wasn't a more simple isolated scum claim. What do I mean by isolated? She didn't just come into the thread on Day 2 and state something like "Hi, my name is Adel. I'm scum" like the Vengeful GF scum claim gambit that JDodge cited. Instead, she received a number of votes and then decided to claim scum while citing two different people as her scum partners: one being me (this one she explicitly stated) and the other being vollkan (she said "oops" afterwards making it seem like it was a joking type of slip of tongue). I think one's interpretation of the claim is dependent on how you saw Adel

before

she made the claim; i.e. did you find her scummy before she made the claim or not? In my case, I did find her scummy before she made the claim so I feel like my vote on her is still warranted. Vollkan seems to have found the claim anti-town in and of itself and is awaiting an explanation from Adel to determine her intentions for making the claim.

Vollkan, was it just the claim that you found scummy or was there more to it?

I personally don't get dazzled by vollkan's massive posting, as he and I duked it out pretty well in my first game here. Be he town or scum, he does provide much information either way. So I just let it continue. As a side note... he was scum in that game...

kabenon, you mentioned as a side note that he was scum in your first game. Are you suggesting that you think he's scum here?

[Incognito]

Picking up prod.

Still like my Adel vote.

[Incognito]

unvote

in expectation of fallout from NabNab.

Adel, what do you mean by this?

[Incognito]

Comments?

I don't know. I've actually been reading through vollkan's Mini 542 around the time that this Mills character fakeclaimed Godfather and sure enough, vollkan-town did place a vote against Mills to actually hammer him. This meta is at least consistent with his views in our Open 59 game. As for the other meta you've provided, NabNab, I'll have to look that over.

The only thing that gives me pause about vollkan in reference to his scum claim argument is the timing of his vote against Adel after she scum claimed. Mills's alignment was already revealed sometime in mid-January and Adel scum-claimed in late January. vollkan would have already known that town could have a propensity to claim scum even though it probably serves no practical purpose within a game. I can see where vollkan was coming from though; he just wanted an explanation from her to see what practical purpose a claim like that could have at helping us to find scum. Having said all that, I still like my Adel vote. =)

[Incognito]

Oh and welcome, Guardian.

[Incognito]

In the interim, I talked to a few people. One agreed, but not strongly; one thought I was overreacting. I'll reveal their identities if I need to.

I don't mind having my identity revealed (ironic, eh?). I was the one who agreed. I thought it was strange early on how kabenon specifically chose the xyzzy wagon as opposed to the JDodge one in his first vote of the game. Kabenon responded in a way that somewhat lessened my suspicion so my negative feelings about him did decrease. Phate's current case against kabenon is extremely convincing, and I think he could use a bit more pressure so

unvote; vote: kabenon007

.

I'll say this: if kabenon is the lynch for today and he does turn up scum, I'll be looking hard at JDodge tomorrow just because of those early actions from kabenon.

[Incognito]

And when I turn up town?

I'm curious. What are your feelings about JDodge?

[Incognito]

You mean in this game, or in general, Incognito?

lol. Well if you feel like going into details about your feelings about him outside of this game then be my guest.

I was definitely talking about your feelings about him in this game though.

[Incognito]

Like, he gets a person in his sights and doesn't provide information about them, he just goes "Oh lynch so-and-so die scum die lols."

Where has he ever not given a wealth of information on how he feels?

If anything,

you

fit this description rather well.

JDodge, this isn't even about vollkan anymore. He's stating that this is a description of

your

actions. Not vollkan's.

[Incognito]

@Xtoxm: I'd like to add my voice to NabNab's and say I, too, would like to see a bit more of your own feelings about the happenings in the game. Primate didn't really contribute much except to mention that nobody has talked to him.

[Incognito]

Woah. I'm not exactly ready for kabenon to be at L-1. I'd rather kabenon follow up with this:

You misunderstood. I can't post now about it, I have class, but when I return, there shall be some clarification. You misunderstood something that has become a point of contention that I believe can alleviate some stress here.

before having him that close to lynch.

Damn... You guys posted a lot while I slept. I have to catch up on what happened last night.

[Incognito]

Oh I meant to

unvote

.

[Incognito]

I doubt he'd get hammered because the folks that haven't voted him seem to think he's sincere...otherwise I would not have put him at -1L. I wanted some pressure on him to respond well to what I've said and what others have said...I'm sick of his wishy-washy responses.

While I agree with you for the most part, I don't think L-1 is the right way to go about it at this time. kabenon promised that he would follow up with content and while the likelihood of someone hammering him while he's at that position is unlikely (especially if he's scum), I'd rather not take that chance. I'm still extremely interested in seeing what Xtoxm has to say about the game so far, and I still dislike Adel's posts in this game. I feel like she's almost getting a free ride while other people scrutinize each other or defend her actions.

[Incognito]

Well, he's not at -1L now, so that fixes that. On your point about Adel, people have tried to question her directly in the past and we've not gotten good responses. You can only lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. It sucks, but if a player is unwilling to play along, we can't force them, even if it does give them a free ride.

This is why I jokingly vowed in another game to never play with Adel again. It sucks playing in a game with her where there's only two groups: vanilla or scum. It's because of players like her that cops are necessary.

[Incognito]

I've read over everything again, and I feel like Phate's case against kabenon along with my own feelings about kabenon around the time of the xyzzy/JDodge wagons both lead me to believe that kabenon is scum. I feel like he's had ample time now to address the holes that have been found about his cases against both JDodge and vollkan, but he's still failed to do so. I also feel like Mizzy hit it right on the nose here when she mentioned this about kabenon:

In fact, this bullshit case is such a distraction that I can't imagine a kabtown would be doing such a thing. He'd be trying to validly scumhunt, not pull random "facts" out of thin air that are actually groundless opinions that are most likely based on his own tendencies of playing scum himself...in which case, there is proof in this thread (his making errors due to mis-reading, whether intentionally or unintentionally) that fit him square into his own case for scum.

kabenon

has

been referencing very ambiguous meta-arguments that simply can't be backed up with sound evidence found within the thread which make his arguments against others seem somewhat contrived. I feel like he's floundering, trying desperately to paint someone in a bad light in the hopes of gaining support but is simply unable to do so. I also disliked his opportunistic vote on vollkan that occurred at a time that vollkan was experiencing the most pressure (referencing that he agrees with JDodge's arguments) here:

I agree with JDodge on this one.

Vote: vollkan.

You are in fact dodging questions with your long posts that can seem contentful but shirk around the important stuff sometimes, by preventing reactions. Reactions to the words written on this thread are, in my opinion, the most telling of all the information we have. Okay, so it's not quite THAT important, but it's pretty high up on the list. And your stepping in did in fact hamper those reactions, and therefore the information given to the town. And plus, you are acting way too close to our first game. It's almost word for word.

and then his complete flip-flop of opinion to vote for JDodge here:

Jdodge just basically told me that he hasn't been reading the thread very much, except for skimming my posts and trying to trounce them, because if taken by itself, it would appear that my post was against vollkan, but if taken in context, it is obvious that I was talking about Jdodge. And only scum don't read threads.

unvote, vote:Jdodge

And now recently instead of continuing to find evidence to support his cases and diminish the suspicions of a number of players within the thread, he's pushed that all aside and cast completely deflective suspicion towards Mizzy, another person whom he had never expressed any suspicion towards until Mizzy directed an attack on him. This recent attack against Mizzy feels OMGUSy to me. Because of all this, I feel comfortable putting kabenon at L-1.

Vote: kabenon007

[Incognito]

And then what would you call my "painting someone in a bad light" if I were town? You are assuming I am scum. Not a good thing to do. Besides, my attack is on JDodge, not Mizzy, at the moment. I merely said it seems that she is trying to buddy up to vollkan. Did I vote her? No. So how is that trying to deflect suspicion?

A deflection of suspicion doesn't necessarily require an actual vote. In your case, you mentioned that Mizzy is number 2 on your list after JDodge. What happened to your previous suspicions against vollkan? Where does he rank on your list?

[Incognito]

Re-reading is tech right about now.

His reasons for Mizzy & vollkan outstriped those for Jdodge imo.

What made you think this, Guardian? kabenon's attack against Mizzy seemed more OMGUSy to me than actually having some sort of valid reasoning behind his thinking process.

[Incognito]

Makes sense to me considering we're basically in LyLo right now.

Vote: No Lynch

[Incognito]

Phate, who have you been talking to? If it's a townie, then you might get mod-killed, and if you don't get mod-killed or mod-smacked in some way...then you didn't break the rules...

Mizzy, I don't understand this statement. How could he know whether or not he's been talking to a townie unless he's scum? Both yours and Phate's statements seem to have some implied knowledge within them. We can't do anything about this now since it's twilight but we'll clearly have plenty to discuss come morning.

[Incognito]

These wagon analyses are more for my reference so that I could frame my thoughts more clearly.

Xyzzy Wagon Analysis

• 1) JDodge places first vote stating that xyzzy is scum for claiming that without the use of AIM we’re limiting the ability to communicate within the game. Leaves his vote on xyzzy for the entire length of Day 1 until xyzzy is eventually lynched.
  
  2) Sir Tornado (now Guardian) places second vote on xyzzy for misinterpreting statements and for trying to remove his hand from blame. Vote remains on xyzzy through Day 1 until xyzzy is lynched and Sir T is replaced.
  
  3) Kabenon007 selectively chooses to vote for xyzzy instead of JDodge and later explains it was to somehow draw a reaction from xyzzy to get him to mistakenly admit that he’s scum. Vote remains on xyzzy until the end of Day 1. Adel placed the L-1 vote on xyzzy which caused kabenon to unvote immediately after I mentioned something about it.
  
  4) Disciple Slayer (now Mizzy) places vote on xyzzy and agrees with all of JDodge’s points against him. Vote remains on xyzzy through the length of Day 1 even upon replacement by Mizzy. Mizzy eventually unvotes.
  
  5) Vollkan votes xyzzy to encourage more conversation to occur within the thread. Unvotes later.
  
  6) Adel places L-1 vote on xyzzy with no explanation.

Conclusion: In the end, xyzzy was lynched as a result of three votes basically: JDodge’s, Sir Tornado’s (Guardian’s), and Adel’s. Day 1 was stagnant with a ping of activity around the deadline.

Kabenon Wagon Analysis

(though he was so screwy, it might not really reveal much =/)

• 1) JDodge places first vote on kabenon for initially unexplained reasons.
  
  2) Adel places second vote on kabenon with no explanation.
  
  3) Phate places third vote on kabenon for explained reasons citing dislike for previous day’s play and his play from Day 2 as well.
  
  4) Vollkan places fourth vote on kabenon after their back and forth and for reasons which made sense to me.
  
  Adel unvotes in here.
  
  5) I place fourth vote on kabenon citing that Phate’s case against kabenon was pretty good, I didn't like the way he selectively chose the xyzzy wagon as opposed to the JDodge one, and to place some pressure on him.
  
  6) Mizzy places L-1 vote on kabenon for solid reasons (at this point, kabenon was pretty much sealing his own grave).
  
  I unvote afterwards waiting for his follow-up with more content.
  
  7) I place L-1 vote on kabenon since he still failed to follow up with promised content against JDodge and vollkan and instead decided to become OMGUSy against Mizzy.
  
  8) Adel hammers kabenon. Can’t say I blame her at this point.

Conclusion: The earlier votes against kabenon arose as a result of kabenon's seemingly opportunistic vote on vollkan but after kabenon’s reactions to the votes were revealed, the votes seemed to gain more merit. Kabenon basically sealed his own grave with his Day 2 antics.

Not liking

: JDodge or Adel very much right about now. Mizzy seems pro-town to me, Phate seemed okay to me too (although the night-talking stuff during twilight was questionable), Xtoxm’s analyses seemed decent but I don’t really have much of a read on him, and Guardian seems okay so far although his replacee Sir Tornado did bother me for leaving the vote on xyzzy through Day 1.

[Incognito]

It's worrisome, especially with the other points against Phate that nearly got him lynched earlier.

When was Phate nearly lynched?

[Incognito]

It seems pretty clear to me that one of you two (either Adel or Phate) is scum. I just wouldn't expect two townies to be voting for each other like this in a LyLo situation. I think Phate's being earnest here though while Adel's intention seem malicious so...

Vote: Adel

[Incognito]

Nicely done.

[Incognito]

Damn, Adel. You're quick.

[Incognito]

Xtoxm and Guardian, thanks for subbing in too! After Sir Tornado and Primate left the game, I was pretty nervous being the only scum amongst arguing townies.

But yeah, this game is definitely heavily scum-favored and might have been a little different with a cop around and a godfather like Adel suggested. I chose scotmany12 as the NK during night 1 because he hadn't said anything within the thread. I figured that killing anyone else might have given the town some information about who is or isn't scum.

Thanks, Oman for modding.

[Incognito]

I'm really surprised you decided to vote so quick Adel. What was your logic?

[Incognito]

I think a power role or two and maybe a minimum one-post-per-day requirement might have done this game some good. It seemed like early on a lot of people thought that other people were daytalking when that simply wasn't the case.

[Incognito]

I think JDodge is BS-ing. If the tell was that glaringly obvious, why didn't he attempt to push for your lynch on Day 2 or at least mention his suspicion of you on Day 2?