Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!


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Post Post #1175 (ISO) » Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:10 pm

Post by Oman »

6 people alive.

Two scum (I assume this, as we've only had 1 NK, and two scum for a 12 p game is rediculous)

two scum, 4 town.

we lynch AA (if town)

Scum NK

2 scum, 2 town

Endgame.

or

we lynch AA (if scum)

Scum NK

1 scum, 3 town

probably with a "cop" alive (to throw suspicion on Setael/setael is scum)

Hmm..

the scum also have to consider the possibility of a doc and/or an RB.

Vote Abstract Actuary


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Post Post #1176 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:35 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

Setael wrote:
Vote: Abstract Actuary


I’m the cop. Last night was the first time I hit scum. N1 I investigated Mexal and N2 I got an innocent on Sudo.

I thought about investigating Adel last night, but after yesterday I thought it would be a wasted investigation since I was sure Adel was scum when Flay came up town. Instead I investigated AA, and I was right. He’s scum.
well now that is an interesting claim. Did you leave any bread crumbs? Because I am the cop. Now I doubt there are two cops in a 12 person game. I also got a guilty last night and it was not AA. So if what Set says is true, we have a 3 person scum group with no God Father. I sort of doubt this. Or a Miller, but I doubt that too...or the mafia have some way of screwing with our investigations...also doubtful/

N1, I investigated Korlash (Set, any reason you didnt investigate Korlash after his claim?) got the guilty. N2, I investigated Jitsu, because he was not on the Korlash Lynch..he was innocent. Last night I got a guilty (again)

Vote jerbubball
!!!

I dont believe Set's claim.

Will provide the crumbs when I have time..got to head to work, but feel free to look them up for yourself...they are not hidden.
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Post Post #1177 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:36 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

..also...we could have a 4 person scum team (with a god father)..but that soudns too big for a 12 person game.
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Post Post #1178 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:49 am

Post by Oman »

Unvote


Vote Jerrubball


I want to see these crumbs too.
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Post Post #1179 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:10 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

they are not crumbs in the sense that I hid, "I am cop"..but more comments I said, if I should have been night killed....like "I feel Jitsu is town" when I havent said that about anyone the whole game. I thought Adel was claiming cop yesterday so that is why I rode her about that...of course, I immeidately went after Korlash (having the guilty it was easy, so I guess I cant take credit for being a good scum hunter) and that is when I found his lie...oh yeah, I think that I was protected N2 (NO REASON TO CONFIRM THIS DOC!!!!) and that is why I made my comment at the end of the day, yesterday.


at any rate, I will provide all these quotes and "crumbs" later today in order so they make sense. I dont know if Set is telling the truth or not, but I dont understand why mafia would claim when there are 7 people left....unless they have 3 member left..but a 4 man mafia team in a 12 person game seems insane.

Personally, I dont believe the claim...but I am not 100%.

has anyone ever seen a 12 person game with 2 cops? also, if Set is telling the truth..most likely we had a 4 person mafia group, anyone seen that?

got to work
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Post Post #1180 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:12 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

and if we have a 4 person mafia group (we have 3 left) and we are at lylo.
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Post Post #1181 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:19 am

Post by Oman »

Nah, it makes sense. And your logic about inv. Korlash beats Sets.

I say we lynch Jer. Then set.
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Post Post #1182 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:18 am

Post by Abstract Actuary »

First, I think people should remove their votes. Oman, specifically, do you always believe every claim you hear immediately? There is no need to rush this lynch and it is possible we are in a lynch or lose situation (although unlikely).

I'm innocent, therefore Setael is either lying scum or an insane cop. I'm very tempted to believe curiouskarmadog, especially since a final two of jerubbaal-Setael seems very reasonable, although I'm slightly nervous that they are both scum and both lying. Although, this really doesn't seem likely because fooling us (we lynch Setael, find scum, believe curiouskarmadog and lynch jerubbaal, find town) isn't a win for the mafia unless they have three members remaining.

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Post Post #1183 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:23 am

Post by jerubbaal »

Well, at least things are moderately clear now. CKD's falseclaiming, so that inclines me to believe Set's claim, and that gives us our two scum, AA and CKD. Honestly, CKD being scum floors me, because I had him on my nigh-confirmed town list after finding the contradiction in Korlash's posting day 2, but I guess it was a bus after Adel started pushing on Korlash day 1.

I sincerely doubt a redirection type role exists in a mini normal, so I'll go with what I know and
Vote: CKD
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Post Post #1184 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:40 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

ok my meeting was pushed back an hour.

Oman, I dont agree with you. All things constant, I can understand a jer., then Set lynch, but why dont we wait to see what Night actions (tonight) information develop. Also I count 7 people, not 6 (Oman, CKD, Set, AA, Jerb, Sudo, and Jitsu.)

AA, Set can not be an insane cop, she said she got an innocent on Mex, and we all know Mex was a town. Furthermore, I cant be insane either, because I got a guilty on Korlash.

Jerb, if I am lying..then Set must be telling the truth and AA is scum. Why arent you voting AA with Set?..why are you voting me instead?
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Post Post #1185 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:00 am

Post by Setael »

CKD and AA almost definitely still have a 3rd partner alive, or CKD would not have fake claimed in order to save AA. So even if we lynch CKD and AA, they can still win, unless one of those 2 nights I find the 3rd scum. If we mislynch today they win. I think it's very doubtful there are 2 cops in this game, but I can see why CKD would mention the possibility, since all he has to do is pull off one mislynch for a win.

As for breadcrumbing, I hadn’t finished reading the game when Miztef was lynched. I skimmed the rest of the game and decided to investigate Mexal because everyone seemed to trust him and he was pushing against Anata so hard, who I knew had been cop. If Mexal was scum, I was pretty sure he’d be able to mislynch me so I wanted to know his alignment.

I investigated Sudo because his korlash vote looked like possible bussing, and because he lurked through all of D2. I intentionally never mentioned him after that, even though he was one of my top suspects D1.

So, basically, there are still 3 scum and with 7 players left, if we mislynch today, scum win. The only 2 I will be willing to lynch today are AA or CKD.
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Post Post #1186 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:30 am

Post by Abstract Actuary »

curiouskarmadog wrote:ok my meeting was pushed back an hour.

Oman, I dont agree with you. All things constant, I can understand a jer., then Set lynch, but why dont we wait to see what Night actions (tonight) information develop. Also I count 7 people, not 6 (Oman, CKD, Set, AA, Jerb, Sudo, and Jitsu.)

AA, Set can not be an insane cop, she said she got an innocent on Mex, and we all know Mex was a town. Furthermore, I cant be insane either, because I got a guilty on Korlash.

Jerb, if I am lying..then Set must be telling the truth and AA is scum. Why arent you voting AA with Set?..why are you voting me instead?
That is good to know and I hadn't considered that. With that knowledge, I know that Setael is scum. I believe that curiouskarmadog is the cop and jerubbaal is guilty, although I do admit there is a chance that it is a double false claim.

At this point then it seems there will be a divide of curiouskarmadog and myself against Setael and jerubbaal with Oman, Jitsu and Sudo_Nym in the position of making the decision.

I would prefer to lynch Setael first and jerrubbaal second.

Setael's last post really sounded desperate. I just don't understand the motivation behind the fake claim today by Setael unless there are 3 mafia members remaining.
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Post Post #1187 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:06 am

Post by jerubbaal »

The odds of there being 3 mafia at this point are extremely low, not to mention unbalanced. I'm unsure where this conjecture is going, or why it is necessary.

I'm voting you, CKD because knowing that you are scum only depends on knowledge of which I am certain, that I am town, instead of relying on knowledge which is likely, that Set is telling the truth. The odds of a double false-claim are low, and I don't see why it would be done, but voting you requires less logical jumps.

I'll happily vote AA if that's the lynch today, but for now I'm voting the person whom I know to be scum rather than the person who is likely to be scum.
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Post Post #1188 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:16 am

Post by Jitsu »

Well, I actually saw the Setael Cop claim coming (for the wrong reason), but not the CKD claim.

So now I have to decide if I found a scum early on Day 1 or whether I have been beating up the Cop the whole time. Heh.

I need to reread and think about who I believe and what the correct strategy should be.

For now, I have some questions:

@Oman: Why did you ask for a claim from Adel (saying you would switch if she had a guilty on Flay) and then switch to Flay anyway, even though she refused to claim?

@Setael: Why did you vigorously defend Flay when you did not have an innocent on him? Second, why did you never investigate me, when I was the one who attacked you so relentlessly for almost the entire game? How did you come to the conclusion I am innocent on D3?

@AA: Why is it better to lynch Setael first?

@Jerub: Why is 3 mafia unbalanced?

I too would like to see the breadcrumbs, if any, that our two claimed cops have dropped.
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Post Post #1189 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:39 am

Post by jerubbaal »

3 mafia left. That would mean that there were 4 mafia in this scenario, and that's a really high proportion. Assuming one NK a night, that puts the town in lylo after one mislynch.
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Post Post #1190 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:46 am

Post by Abstract Actuary »

Jitsu wrote:@AA: Why is it better to lynch Setael first?
For me, I prefer to lynch Setael first because I know that he is lying and therefore must be scum. I think it is highly likely, because of that that curiouskarmadog is telling the truth, but it isn't a certainty. There is a small possibility of a double claim.

In the end I would be willing to lynch jerubbaal over anyone other than Setael.

@Jitsu (or anyone else) in a situation like this wouldn't we want to lynch a false claimer before we lynched the person they claimed against - or do I just think that way because I am a target and not a claimant?
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Post Post #1191 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:35 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

Set, I asked you why you didn’t investigate Korlash. Not why you investigate Mex. He almost hung Day 1 and then claimed RB, you didn’t find this investigation worthy? So you dont have any breadcrumbs? Also Set, if you really thought there were only two more scum out there, why did you feel it was important to claim right now? You could have tried to push a case against AA, see who believed it..who didnt, maybe even get more information. Wouldnt that be important to find out who agreed with your case? Who voted for little to no reason?

THERE WAS NO REASON TO CLAIM COP AT THE BEGINNING OF THE DAY! This was a plan that was hatched last night and excuted poorly. You really need to ask yourself why Set isnt scum hunting or at least trying to get more information for the town.

Jitsu, like I said they were not breadcrumbs as much as actions which I hope proves I am indeed the cop, because today is an important lynch.

Night 1, I investigated Korlash because did not believe his claim. Once I got the investigation result (Korlash was scum) I immediately started digging for who bought the claim and would supported it openly.

This was the 5th post (my 1st) on Day 2.
curiouskarmadog wrote:I can not believe that Mitzef was town.....

are we now assuming that the RB is indeed town aligned?

going to reread...
At this point, there was no need to claim, but I had to come up with a case against Korlash that was solid. When I read his posts in a vacuum and meta-ed him I discovered his mistruths and caught him in the lie. I was distracted by Set early Day 2, and her avoidance of answering questions about Korlash…I believe this is where she began insulting me…cant remember. At any rate, I start pushing my case against Korlash and put the second vote on him. Of course Set and Jerb where the last votes on Korlash.

Night 2, I was stuck between deciding to investigate Jerb for his bus like vote or Jitsu, who didn’t vote for Korlash at all. I went with Jitsu, and got the innocent.

Call me narcissistic, but I have a feeling that the doc protected me that night because I was after Korlash out of the gate when others (to include Set) ignored him, thus no night kill.

Now at this point, I didn’t have a clue who might be scum (thus why I openly admitted to fence sitting) because if I was Nked Night 3, I wanted people to know that I didn’t get another guilty.
curiouskarmadog wrote:I have not voted because I am not certian...or really even leaning one way or the other on the two vote leaders.

I truly sit upon this fence as will my vote for now.
As the Day grew to a close, I felt it important that if I was Nked I wanted people to know who I got the innocent on. Thus…
curiouskarmadog wrote:
the only person I feel is town is Jitsu.
I figured that would stick out because I put it in a sentence by itself AND it was an unprovoked statement about someone being town (which I hardly ever do).

Yesterday, I went out of my way to find out if adel was claiming cop or not.
curiouskarmadog wrote: Adel, have you soft claimed cop or not....if you did, is that why you attacked Korlash yesterday? Is that why you are attacking Flay today?
I figured if she claimed cop, I would have found myself another scum, and I might have come out then…but she didn’t. I guess the mafia didn’t believe it because they offed her last night.

Before the Day ended, I wanted the doc to protect me again so I could get another investigation in and that is why I said.
curiouskarmadog wrote:well if I am reading this correct, Oman just dropped the hammer..so we are in twilight....some of our questions will be answered shortly..HOPEFULLY, tomorrow, we will have more questions answered. I also hope we have a repeat of last night's lack of kill. If we have a doc, I think they chose wisely with their protection.

Last night, I went with Jer instead..and I got the guilty. I wasn’t going to come out with it and just build a case like I did against Korlash hopefully getting more information for us..but then Set claimed…Now, we got two scum today.

I think Jer should be our first lynch. I will most likely investigate AA tonight….depending on that investigation result is, will dictate who we should lynch tomorrow (set or ?) We still have the possibility of a GF out there. I am just hoping that Set was stupid enough to pull that stunt as the GF.
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Post Post #1192 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:06 am

Post by Jitsu »

I am intentionally not going to announce who I believe until I consider all of the evidence on both sides. I ask Oman to unvote until we think this out a little bit more -- there is no rush, as we have solid claims out there. Nobody is going to hide.

@CKD: Thank you for the explanation. I will consider your points carefully.

@Setael: Can you go into more detail about your investigation choices and answer my/CKD's questions on your night choices? Also, please point to any breadcrumbs/actions you have taken that show your innocence or defend your night choices.

@AA: I understand your reasoning -- of course, of the four of you (Setael, Jerub, AA, and you), I presume that all of you know the identity of at least one scum (barring some weirdness), and the two suspects with "guilty" verdicts on them are naturally going to side with the cop that did not accuse them.

What I'm trying to do though, is to think through the cases and see if there is a strategy that will give us a good chance of a win from the town's perspective.
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Post Post #1193 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:25 am

Post by Jitsu »

One more question:

@Setael: If your theory of 3 scum left alive is accurate, and assuming that CKD and AA are 2 of the remaining 3 left, then who is the third?
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Post Post #1194 (ISO) » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:28 am

Post by Oman »

AA wrote:Oman, specifically, do you always believe every claim you hear immediately?
No.
CKD wrote:Oman, I dont agree with you.
And that *pause* is why you fail.
CKD wrote:All things constant, I can understand a jer., then Set lynch, but why dont we wait to see what Night actions (tonight) information develop.
Do you mind me asking whether you indend to invesitgate Setael tonight?
CKD wrote: Also I count 7 people, not 6 (Oman, CKD, Set, AA, Jerb, Sudo, and Jitsu.)
My bad, I read the first post, it has stikethroughs
Set wrote:I think it's very doubtful there are 2 cops in this game, but I can see why CKD would mention the possibility, since all he has to do is pull off one mislynch for a win.
The last line is incorrect. 7 people, two mislynches.

THe only way there would be 4 scum, would be with 2 cops, or a hell of a lot of other roles.
Set wrote:So, basically, there are still 3 scum and with 7 players left, if we mislynch today, scum win.
I disagree. 3 scum seems to help you, so that MUST be the soloution.
Jistu wrote:Why did you ask for a claim from Adel (saying you would switch if she had a guilty on Flay) and then switch to Flay anyway, even though she refused to claim?
Adel is crafty, and I read the "I refuse to claim" as either a townie or a cop. There was no way I could see scum Adel pulling that.
CKD wrote:THERE WAS NO REASON TO CLAIM COP AT THE BEGINNING OF THE DAY!
This is so full of truth.

Unvote


I need to think more about this, CKD's logic is not proof of town.
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Post Post #1195 (ISO) » Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:16 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

Oman wrote: Do you mind me asking whether you indend to invesitgate Setael tonight?
I dont want to go into who i plan on investigating tonight...it is good to keep everyone on their toes.
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Post Post #1196 (ISO) » Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:36 am

Post by Setael »

As far as Korlash goes, unlike ckd, I believed his claim. I thought he was a protown roleblocker and didn't even consider investigating him. I didn't suspect him until ckd first posted that he had found evidence he lied, and I then found something myself which proved ckd was right.

I was pretty stressed that first night since I was rushed to finish the thread and because Anata had been under so much suspicion. This is my first time as cop so I didn't have any experience to go on. I knew Mexal is a very good player and that he was the main one making solid arguments against Anata that the town was buying. I figured if he was scum he would be able to get me to -1 and I'd have to claim. Mostly though, I just wanted to know the alignment of the person I thought the town was trusting and that I knew was a good player.

ckd asked why I didn't investigate him - his play on the korlash wagon didn't look like bussing at all. (Applause.) I opted to investigate sudo who was lurking pretty hard and who I could see being partners with korlash.

If AA and ckd are the only 2 scum left, it doesn't make sense to me that ckd would fake claim if whoever he accuses is going to come up town, immediately making it obvious that he was lying. Especially since then (if there are only 2 scum) the town would still have enough lynches to take out ckd and AA and win. The only possibility I can think of is that jerubbal is the 3rd and they're bussing him in order to coast to the end. It would work, too, unless I'm missing something. If jerubbal is lynched and comes up scum, the town would likely believe ckd over me since his claim is "proven". If they're then able to get me mislynched, when I come up town cop it will be too late because they'd have a NK and would automatically win.

If after ckd's claim they were able to get me mislynched instead of jerubbal then they've got the cop out of their way and even though the town would then target ckd and AA, jerubbal would look like obvtown since he's the one scum targeted and he'd likely make it to the end.

If there are 3 scum, I can see them deciding to bus one of them since we've been generally assuming there are only 2. There's no SK obviously since there's been one (or none) NK each night so I don't think a 4 person scum team is that unbelievable.

My inexperience with a cop role is obvious. I was more concerned about saying things that would draw a NK before I had a chance to find any scum than I was about breadcrumbing. I kind of clammed up and didn't say much at all except that I didn't think Flay was scum. That was based on the fact that most the case against him was that people thought he and I were scum together which I knew wasn't true. I did say I would not claim until -1 but I realized right away that made me look like I had a power role, so I avoided any other hints like that after that. I thought it made sense to claim right away since I found scum last night.

The only thing that makes sense is there are 3 scum left. Which means if I'm mislynched today we lose. If we lynch any of the 3 scum we have a chance. I would obviously prefer AA or ckd, but I think it's highly likely jerubbaal is the 3rd and would vote him as well.
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Post Post #1197 (ISO) » Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:41 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

so your defense is I am bussing YET another mafia player right off the bat to get in BETTER with the town who already thinks I am very pro town and you are just a bad cop.

well like Korlash, I guess I should meta you to see if you have been a cop before...or at least insulted a cop's play.
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Post Post #1198 (ISO) » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:09 pm

Post by curiouskarmadog »

Setael wrote:
I was pretty stressed that first night since I was rushed to finish the thread and because Anata had been under so much suspicion. This is my first time as cop so I didn't have any experience to go on.
Ok had some time to meta, only quoting ended games. I found that Set has a lot of experience dealing with cops and has express that she has a firm grasp of the theory of being a cop. So I am calling bullshit on her.

Since the games is locked, I cant pull the quotes, but you can look at them for yourselves if you want to know the exact context they were in. I have provided the game, page number, and post to make it easy for you.


Open 43 Post 772: Page 31 Set said.

“I don't think that thinktank should tell us who the innocent investigation was on AT ALL today since it just narrows down for scum who the doc is and it'd be sweet if they guess wrong tonight.”

Here Set demonstrates that he understands that thinktank (claimed cop) should not reveal his innocent investigations because it “narrows down for scum” who the doc is. Well most likely we have a doc in the house. SO ask yourself why did Set decide she wanted to tell US what her innocent investigations were without being provoked to do so?

Same game Post 720 Page 29 Set said…

“It bites the cop had to be outed in order to get this lynch but no one was agreeing so I don't blame thinktank for claiming.”

Here Set demonstrates he understands that the cop should remain hidden as long as possible. This occurred in Day 2 of this game. Thinktank was being pressured and had to claim. Set knows he should stay hidden, why didn’t she do that in our game?

This doesn’t really mean anything but I found it funny. Mini 480 Page 20 post 491, Set said

“Question. Does a mini ALWAYS have a cop and a doc or is it possible those roles didn't exist in the first place, leaving scum safe to claim them without being counter claimed?”

now to this.
Setael wrote:The only thing that makes sense is there are 3 scum left. Which means if I'm mislynched today we lose. If we lynch any of the 3 scum we have a chance. I would obviously prefer AA or ckd, but I think it's highly likely jerubbaal is the 3rd and would vote him as well.

So now Set wants you to believe that she is inexperienced and didn’t know how to handle being a cop. Seems to me anyone that is pro-town (inexperienced or no) would have waited a bit to get a little more information. Again, there was absolutely no reason to come out the way she did. Now she is going to push that there are 3 scum left AA, Jerb, and myself must be the scum. She also wants you to swallow that I not only bussed Korlash out of the gate Day 2, but I am bussing Jerb Day 4. She wants you to think we are in lylo, that I am scum, that Jerb is also scum, and SHE IS OK WITH VOTING JERB, who I said is scum. Wow.

Set, you got to be embarrassed.

That being said, I forgive you for your insults earlier in this game. I understand that scum will do anything to win. You had to try to discredit me early, I get it. No hard feelings.

I do not think Set is the lynch today. I want to go with someone I am 99% sure is scum..jerb.

Jerb, I am interested to hear your thoughts on Set’s theory that you are scum with me and AA and I am bussing you....
NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE
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Jitsu
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Post Post #1199 (ISO) » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:49 pm

Post by Jitsu »

Okay, I think I've figured out the optimal play.

It is very unlikely that either Jerub or AA is a normal miller (by that, I mean the Mod told them they were a miller). Why? Because each one has stated they were sure that the person that accused them is a liar. If either one of them knew they were an innocent miller, they could not be sure that their accuser were lying. It is possible that one or both is a secret miller (by that, I mean that the person is actually a miller, but the Mod did not tell them that), but I think a secret miller is highly unlikely in a Mini Normal.

At this point, I don't think the cops are much useful anymore unless one of the following highly unlikely scenarios is true:

1. We have two innocent cops
2. We have a four-person mafia team

If we have a four-person mafia team (3 still alive), then we have been pretty screwed since the game started, because that's pretty unbalanced. If we have a 4 person scumgroup, we lose on the first mislynch, even though that scenario seems highly unlikely.

If both cops are scum (double false claim), then all of their investigations are useless to us already. They will be able to fix their "investigations" and results as necessary to get a mislynch. If only one cop is lying, then the one that is telling the truth should have already found the two scum for us (the lying cop + the person the innocent cop has the guilty on). Based on this, I think the doctor is likely not very useful anymore either.

If both cops are innocent, which I find highly unlikely, it's likely we are going to lose anyway. Otherwise, at least one of the cops is lying scum, with a small possibility of both.

What we SHOULDN'T do is lynch one of the suspects with a guilty on them first. If they come up innocent, we can nail the cop that accused them, but then we don't know for sure whether the last scum is the other cop (double false claim) or the other suspect (the other cop is telling the truth). In either case, the one that is guilty will lie, and the cop and suspect that are left over will (obviously) not agree with each other. We could probably guess at that point and be right, but there is a better way.

I have a strategy that is highly likely to give us a win if we have only a 3 person scum group (2 of which are still alive) and still give us a shot at a win in the unlikely event there is a 4 person scum team (meaning we are now in LYLO). This strategy will even work if we have a double false claim. The strategy will fail if we have two cops and/or there is funny business going on with secret millers, or the like. But I think the chances of one of those occurring are extremely low.

The strategy would be to lynch our best guess at the lying cop first (let's call that person Cop A).

If Cop A is guilty, we lynch the suspect Cop A had a guilty on. If that suspect is guilty, the game should be over (but if not, we can try to guess who the 4th scum is). If that suspect is innocent, we lynch Cop B.

If Cop A is innocent, we lose if there is a 4 person scum team (but even in that case, we were in LYLO and we did the best we could by voting the person most likely to be scum). Assuming the game is not over at that point (and it shouldn't be) we lynch Cop B, and then the person Cop A had a guilty on.

With this strategy, it actually doesn't matter which cop is lynched first, though the best choice is obviously the one we think is most likely to be lying. And of course, we could adjust the strategy along the way if something really funny comes up during the NK.


For the record though, I think it is most likely Setael is lying and CKD is telling the truth, which would make Jerub the remaining scum. I tend to believe CKD because his investigation logic flows well, his choices make a lot more sense than Setael's given what's happened, plus it's a lot more likely that there is only 2 scum alive and that he counterclaimed a guilty Setael than Setael's assertion that there are 3 scum alive, she was the innocent claimant, and CKD made a fake counterclaim to try to save AA.

There is a scenario that makes sense for Setael-scum to claim early. Let me set the table:

I thought Adel was the cop for most of D3. When I posted how I thought Adel had "a good reason" to put an immovable vote on Flay and not justify it, I was trying to hint to the others that I thought Adel was the cop with a guilty on Flay. But later in the day I started to doubt that. Adel said she didn't suspect Flay until Nov. 30, but if she was a cop with a guilty on him N2, she should have suspected him long before that -- at least when she got the guilty N2, and possibly before that, for wanting to investigate Flay in the first place. Also, when she made the comments about spending Townie capital and made a possible "soft claim" as a Cop, I was starting to seriously doubt that she WAS the cop or the doctor, since I wouldn't have expected her to be so obvious about something she should have been trying to hide. But I wasn't sure.

Then I realized that Setael could be the cop, and she could be defending Flay because she had an innocent on him N2, or that she could be the doctor who protected him N2 and concluded he was innocent because there was no night kill. This is what I meant when I said that I came up with another theory that would lead to both Setael and Flay being innocent.

The fact that Adel was offed last night suggests to me that we have a partial-reveal game, and that the scum either knew that (because of Korlash) or highly suspected it. I think that the scum were pretty sure that Adel was the cop. So the scum shut her up, and thought they were in the clear. Given that, Setael did not expect a counterclaim, so the town would likely be willing to go along with her, as the theory is testable and we likely still have a mislynch left (remember, Setael did not bring up the "4th scum" theory until CKD counterclaimed). Even if AA came up innocent D5 and the town lynched Setael D6, the scum only needed one more mislynch on D7 to win, and the odds would probably be in favor of that. Not a bad strategy.

But IMO, Setael blew it with her claim. It was probably too early for an innocent cop to claim as CKD said, but even then I would have tended to believe her today
*if*
she said she had an innocent on Flay N2 (it would have explained her D3 resistance to lynch him). But she said she investigated Sudo instead! I really cannot see how Sudo was a good target N2. Setael did suspect him D1, but she never mentioned him D2. If she still thought he was a suspect worthy of an investigation, I would have at least expected her to mention him as a suspect early on D2, but she did not, that I could see. Instead, she seemed to focus on myself and CKD, with some Jerub on the side (I think). If she really believed early on D3 that the people who
didn't
lynch Korlash (CKD, Oman, and myself) were the most suspicious, why didn't she investigate CKD or me instead of Sudo?

Because of this analysis, I think Setael *is* the lynch for today. I am willing to take full responsibility for a game loss if we have an unbalanced four-person mafia team setup. But I am ready to vote her anyway, and call her bluff.

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