Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[Justin Playfair]

Wesaq,

I’m just a little curious about the following statement:

I phrased it not as clearly as i thought. I selected you as a random target. And after that i found a reason to choose you.

Are you really suggesting that as you were posting a random vote on Kabenon you realized that you also had a reason to be suspicious of him? In the very act of posting? And if so are you now suggesting that the vote was not random by the time you finished the post?

You also posted this:

@kabenon
I've seen, what that was a parody of a name, but like many others was too lazy to figure out.

But i still see no other choice, so the Vote is still with you.

Are you maintaining that your vote on Kabenon is still serious? And that even though you now see “that was a parody of a name” that you still believe it is a reason to vote for Kabenon? Or has this vote reverted to its pristine “random” state?


Spacecase,

In sequence, I am curious about this last little series of statements you have made:

So what we are basically saying is that we interrogate the "veteran" players, right?

To tell you the truth, Wesaq has me confused in more ways then one. Such as his overall reasoning of voting you in the first place. unvote

but that's the thing. It had to be deliberate to take the most analytical person out of the game on night 0.

I’m curious about this sequence because you first suggest that we should interrogate the veteran players. This would exclude you, of course. You then overstate the case that Peers raised by stating that it had to be “deliberate to take the most analytical person out” to try to keep attention focused on this (and once again, of course, it couldn’t be you acting in such a deliberate fashion, because you are new). And then you jump in with Kabenon on being suspicious of Wesaq, and once again take the issue farther than even the person who originated it with this:

vote Wesaq, Seems like the smartest choice instead of playing the guessing game. Also, this will clear up confusion later in the game, sine it seems Wesaq can't keep his facts straight.

From what I read above I assume that you favor a lynching of Wesaq at this point, on the evidence available.

To me this looks less like trying to be legitimately helpful to town and more like trying to point attention in any direction as long as it is away from you. Just a couple questions:

What would a “deliberate” killing of the “most analytical” person in town tell you that would help you find scum, with no established relationships or suspicions within this game to guide you? What next step would you take, other than to encourage attention be focused elsewhere?

What are the “more ways than one” in which Wesaq has confused you? And are you in fact comfortable with a Wesaq lynch at this point, as your post seems to suggest?

Peers,

There’s a lot in this post that makes me curious of Peers.

So, from the descriptions, Timmytuttut was killed by the serial killer, and CKD was killed by the Mafia. I think we can presume the SK kill was picked at random, as he has as little info to work with as the town does, but the CKD kill was deliberate -- at least one person in the Mafia has been in games with him and knows his playstyle could be dangerous to the Mafia, especially in an open game.

So, how many players here have played a game with CKD before?

I’ll forego the issue of which person was killed by mafia and which was killed by the serial killer. But this statement just makes no sense at all:

I think we can presume the SK kill was picked at random, as he has as little info to work with as the town does

The only information Mafia would have that the SK would not would be who the other Mafia are.

This would be irrelevant for the reason you then give for Mafia killing CKD with reason. The SK would be as aware of who (s)he thought was threatening to him/her as Mafia would.

So since the SK would have the same information as the mafia for the purposes of selecting a target on night 0, specifically which players had in previous encounters seemed most adept at scum hunting or most proficient at seeming town, are you suggesting that the SK must be one of the new players? Or someone who has not played with any of the other players in this game before? If not, how does the logic in the above statement work?

And this is just really specific:

but the CKD kill was deliberate -- at least one person in the Mafia has been in games with him and knows his playstyle could be dangerous to the Mafia, especially in an open game.

Why would his play style be especially dangerous in an open game, as opposed to some other kind? And why are you absolutely certain that the Mafia’s knowledge of this was the reason for his death?

Lastly, what bothers me about your post on this is that you ask…

So, how many players here have played a game with CKD before?

…but then you had to be directly asked, by Farside22, if you had played in games with Curiouskarmadog before you told the rest of us that you had. Was there a specific reason why you didn’t offer this information unprompted, since you asked others to divulge it?

By the way, I was in the last try at the New C9 with Curiouskarmadog.

And thanks for any answers provided.

[Spacecase]

So you're pretty much saying that your post sheds no light to our predicament.

[Spacecase]

To answer the first question about the interoggations. I never said that we should do it. I was asking for a clarafication hence the question mark at the end.

Wesaq confused me as too how he phrases his answers.

[Jesse Gunn]

FOS: Justin Playfair

For being extremely analytical on day 1.

[Wesaq]

Ok some clarification from my side.
I admit what my posts were confusing, but it was not intended.
Kabenon was my random choice, so i looked for any reason to vote for him. Because you can always find a reason, even if it is a stupid one. The "strange vote" reason was not so stupid to be an obvious joke.
Kabenon doesn't have enough votes to be in a danger of lynching and there are no obvious scum, so i am still comfortable with my vote.

[Phate]

Wesaq's play seems normal to me. I smell OMGUS from kab, opportunism from Space, and vollkan seems to be testing the waters without risking a vote.

Opportunism is scummier than OMGUS, though, and other than that I've been getting a relatively town read from vollkan, so

Unvote
Vote: Spacecase

[somestrangeflea]

Confirm Vote: Jesse Gunn

.

Because...

being extremely analytical on day 1.

...isn't a sign of scum, it's a sign of good play. Being analytical at any stage of the game is a good sign, the earlier the better.

[kabenon007]

A word of warning Phate, vollkan always gives off town vibes...

[farside22]

Confirm Vote: Jesse Gunn

.

Because...

being extremely analytical on day 1.

...isn't a sign of scum, it's a sign of good play. Being analytical at any stage of the game is a good sign, the earlier the better.

QFT. I liked the break down that justinfairplay gave. It was insightful and useful. FOS'ing someone for being too analytical is scummie.

unvote: Vote: Jesse Gunn

[Jesse Gunn]

Yes, but he was over-analyzing events that were just stupid. At this point, we really don't know anything and it just looked like he was trying to grasp at anything to try and make someone look like scum. If that makes me look bad for pointing it out, then so be it.

What's worse? Over-analyzing an obviously joke-vote... or criticizing the analysis.

Oh, and I'm keeping my vote on Six Aces, because it's not random.

[somestrangeflea]

Yes, but he was over-analyzing events that were just stupid.

And since when were you the judge on what's stupid and what isn't?

At this point, we really don't know anything

We know the alignments of dead players, which is all we can

ever

truly know at

any

point in the game. How are we supposed to get information if we don't analyse? Guess?

it just looked like he was trying to grasp at anything to try and make someone look like scum.

Who? Wesaq? Spacecase? Peers? It's not as though his analysis hammered hard on one specific person, so I fail to see how he's trying to make "someone" look like scum.

What's worse? Over-analyzing an obviously joke-vote... or criticizing the analysis.

Whether or not the vote was a joke-vote is irrelevant. The point is, it's a post. Posts consist of words, and if we stop analysing the words, then we don't have a game, we have a lottery.

Besides, joke-votes related to only a small part of his post, and yet you seem to be using that to attack the credibility of the entire post.

Oh, and I'm keeping my vote on Six Aces, because it's not random.

That's true...

With regards to not randomly voting, my vote stays.

Does a vote really qualify as "non-random" (with "random" being used as the Mafia term meaning "early and baseless") when your reasoning so far has consisted of:

Because his name comes before me.

Well? Does it?

[Justin Playfair]

Jesse Gunn,

Just a couple questions. First, how would you propose we move from this point, where "we really don't know anything" to a point at which we do? Because asking for more information about those actions which have seemed the most unclear or curious seems to me to be the best way. Do you have an alternate method you favor, and if so what is it?

Do you have specific reasons why the things I asked constitute “grasping at straws”? And since I would assume the obvious “joke-vote” you are referring to would be Wesaq’s vote on Kabenon, could you explain in what way I am over-analyzing it? And why would the questions I asked be more of a “grasping at straws” than the votes that were placed on him for the activities I questioned him about?

Thank you for any answers.

And since we’re discussing things now, let me

Unvote

my random vote.

One last question, Jesse Gunn. Why is your vote on Six Aces not random?

[Justin Playfair]

Ack. Sorry. somestrangeflea already covered the territory in my post above.

[The Fonz]

Because his name comes before me.

Well? Does it?

This demands an answer.

Also, a word of note: I don't think speculating on who killed either victim is particularly useful. CKD was one of the most experienced players here, anyone could have looked up his record and decided he was worth getting rid of. I usually random NK as scum for precisely the reason that town is likely to tie themselves in WIFOMy knots wondering who had motive to do it.

I particularly dislike this post:

ok in open 50 CKD was the Vig. He had a nightkillofone of the mafia randomly. He said after the game was abandoned that he learned it was not always a good idea that the Vig kill N0. If I learned anything, I'd say one or more of our mafia are refugees of that game and didn't want to deal with the possibility that he was vig again- long odds but he was lucky and was a pretty smart player.

I really don't understand this. Why would someone nk on the small random possibility he was a vig again?

Besides, even if the decision was made by someone who'd played with him before, it only takes one member of the scumteam to suggest a kill- and one scum amongst all of those who'd previously played with CKD is no better ratio than four amongst everyone, I don't think.

This reminds me of a game where LML died N0, and someone suggested something along the lines of... 'It was either an experienced player who'd played with him before, or a newbie who looked up his record and found out he was a good player.'

Basically, I think law of averages dictates there probably is at least one person who's played with CKD before amongst the scum. But I don't see how this suggests anything useful that the town should do.

[Jesse Gunn]

Damn you suspended site page! Had a whole response typed up, and lost it. Oh well, I'll just say this. I'm not going to roleclaim on day 1, but I will if it's a choice between mafia and something else. But, I'm voting Six Aces because he's scum. If you don't believe me then lynch me, but you'll be sorry.

However, if you want to take a chance on taking out a mafia then let's all look into Six Aces. I realize I probably screwed my chances of making it past tonight, but I'll chalk it up to my inexperience at this site.

[Justin Playfair]

Well, assuming it's true that's better than anything I had. Six Aces, is there anything you'd like to tell us?

[ryan]

If you don't believe me then lynch me, but you'll be sorry.

I cannot even begin to explain how unbelievably weak of an argument this is.

[Jesse Gunn]

I agree. It's very weak. I just never expected to be a target on day 1, and be forced to expose what I know.

When you find out Ace is scum, you'll know that I'm telling the truth.

[kabenon007]

There was no need to freak out like that, Jesse, you aren't under than much suspicion. As such, I see it more as a newbie mistake than a scummy mistake, and therefore I am inclined to believe he does have some sort of info.

unvote, vote: Six Aces

[LaptopGun]

Yeah Fonz I probably over thought that one. I guess I didn't take the idear into account and it indeed merits discussion as it appears it has. So there wasn't some grand conspiracy of ex-open 50 members to NK CKD. Certainly he'd be someone who is a pretty good player, perhaps even an asset to the town. But the other point, that a little newbie research would result in the same result of NK'ing him, is pretty damn good. And then there is the simple "it WAS random" and I was wrong and overthinking things.

Speaking of newbies...

Oh great role claim hilarity, or rather the possiblity of it on day 1. I agree the argument is pretty bleeping weak, but in the name of due dilligence I'd like to hear what Six Aces has to say. I will say that Jesse Gunn is really giving off mixed signals here and I'd like to evaluate Six Aces before I make up my mind on it. I've found that I as someone lacking experience can behave in the same manner. That fear of getting yourself lynched is always "fun" to deal with.

I'm gonna

unvote

Jesse Gunn, to that effect.

A a parting thought, I still have a hard time swallowing the Wesaq argument. It seems to be overblown, but I just don't know.

[kabenon007]

I agree, LG, he's next if Six Aces satisfies me.

[ryan]

unvote/vote: Six Aces

I'm interested to see where this development takes us

[Shteven]

I agree Jesse's recent complaint about justin is wrong; not only is the analysis helpful, it's also very much his regular play style. I don't think he intends it to be an attack, but as his posts get longer and more technical, it generally feels like one. We went back and forth for some time in the previous, abandoned new C9. Personally, I'd just like to thank him for preventing the game from stalling.

unvote/vote: Six Aces

I'm interested to see where this development takes us

As am I but I didn't really think I had to jump on the bandwagon to get an answer from him. Worth a FOS.

[vollkan]

Posted as I run through the latest stuff:

FOS: Justin Playfair

For being extremely analytical on day 1.

Because the last thing we would want is to have good analysis on D1.

Yes, but he was over-analyzing events that were just stupid. At this point, we really don't know anything and it just looked like he was trying to grasp at anything to try and make someone look like scum. If that makes me look bad for pointing it out, then so be it.

What's worse? Over-analyzing an obviously joke-vote... or criticizing the analysis.

Oh, and I'm keeping my vote on Six Aces, because it's not random.

If random votes are not meant to be analysed, we wouldn't have the random voting stage. Justin's analysis is lengthy, but it is hardly excessive or "grasping at straws".

A word of warning Phate, vollkan always gives off town vibes...

Actually, the only time people tend to find me scummy at all is when I am town. When I am scum, the only argument that usually gets run against me is: "Why haven't you been NKed yet?" - but I also get hit with that chestnut as town, so it fails.

Damn you suspended site page! Had a whole response typed up, and lost it.

You see that little button in the top-left of your screen with the arrow pointing left on it?

If you press that it will take you "back" to the last page you were on, complete with your post all typed up and pretty (at least firefox does it).

Oh well, I'll just say this. I'm not going to roleclaim on day 1, but I will if it's a choice between mafia and something else. But, I'm voting Six Aces because he's scum. If you don't believe me then lynch me, but you'll be sorry.

However, if you want to take a chance on taking out a mafia then let's all look into Six Aces. I realize I probably screwed my chances of making it past tonight, but I'll chalk it up to my inexperience at this site.

*headdesk*

D1 newb soft claim.

Unvote, Vote: Six Aces

Anything to say?

[Phate]

As much as it kills me inside to say this, I completely agree with Ryan: that's a very weak argument. And yet: somehow I believe him, in spite of it. Probably because he's a newbie. I'm considering voting Six Aces.

Mod: Votecount please?