PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[Erg0]

I wasn't pointing out a contradiction, more an omission.

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Gorrad: 5 (Fritzler, Flameaxe, The Fonz, UltimaAvalon, Claus)
UltimaAvalon: 3 (JordanA24, Guardian, Erg0)
Thestatusquo: 3 (mikeburnfire, KaleiÐoscøpe, Rosso Carne)
Kison: 2 (Sir Tornado, hasdgfas)
Claus: 1 (cicero)
cicero: 1 (Iammars)
hasdgfas: 1 (Kison)
Skruffs: 1 (Samruc)
Sir Tornado: 1 (Thok)
Iammars: 1 (Guardian)

Not voting: 6 (Mgm, Skruffs, Thesp, Thestatusquo, Twomz, Gorrad)

13 to lynch!

Deadline will be ~20th February.

Under Rule [05], nobody would be lynched at deadline.

[Claus]

???

... rereading ...

Ah, you mean that "neck cut and beaten to death" could be 2 deaths because of the "and"?

Meh, I can see it going both ways. This is exactly the kind of speculation that we can go without D1, since tomorrow we will know which of the options is true quite easily.

[Erg0]

Fair enough. I seriously doubt that it will have a significant effect on our day 1 play either way (at least it shouldn't).

[Mgm]

Vote: Gorrad

[Thesp]

I like Guardian's line of thought re: Iammars.

3- Confirming with a "Yar, captain" is not a pirate/ninja/whatever tell. Pirates are cool, even if they are scum in this game. I was planning to do my opening vote similarly, but cicero's and Guardian's posts gave me a better and less random idea.

I'm not sure your minor anecdotal evidence can purely discount the pirate-speak as a potential scum-tell. Scum-tells aren't

exclusively

done by scum, they are

more often

done by scum than by town. I want to see where this goes.

Interesting that you ignored the apparent double kill here...

I find it more interesting that you bring it up. What would someone connected to a kill have to gain by intimating fewer deaths on N1?

I find the gorrad wagon mildly interesting.

Vote: Iammars.

[Sir Tornado]

No one has responded in any meaningful way to my points about UA's pirate avatar, or Iammars's confirming with pirate flavor. I believe the latter is a stronger point, and merits a change of vote at this juncture.

Don't dismiss this out of hand -- Iammars confirmed with pirate flavor -- he could easily be ninja scum who thought pirates were townies (pirates v. ninjas, a reasonable assumption to make). By claiming with pirate flavor, he gains points as being ready to look like a pirate -- but it now appears pirates are scum, too.

It seems that at least one reasonable explanation is that Iammars is in fact ninja scum who wanted to look a pirate.

I see this entirely viable.

vote Iammars

[Skruffs]

Lots to respond to, but it seems that people have already pointed all of those things out.

Speculating on the setup is not intrinsically bad - if someone says there is likely to be a role (like scum-specific doctor roles), that doesn't make a lot of sense, they should be called out on it.

I'm glad that claus pointed out the 'neck cut' as the pirate death... Looking at it, I have to say that it's just as possible that ninjas would slice someone as that they would beat someone up. I guess that it depends on the ninja.

Thesp- I guess I'm using 'burden of proficiency' here, but I doubt that someone as amazing as strategy as you would make such a slip and 'not realize' that everyone wasn't pirate or ninja. Even less likely is that you would think, as town, that intentionally doing that would *work* though.

I'm boggled, and that upsets me, because you're usually a beacon of sense... Just odd, though.

haikus:

Guardian: you were scum in open 19 and a miller in ork mafia, both games in which you used haikus: correct? Haikus don't seem to work for you very well.

Secondly: I was in haiku mafia, a game run by glork, and it was very easy to win because of the extreme limitations being forced to post in 34 syllables, at once, imposed. inasmuch, I am not sure why someone would intentionally limit themselves.


Lastly:
Welcome to the game MGM, why did you put a sixth vote on gorrad?

[mikeburnfire]

No one has responded in any meaningful way to my points about UA's pirate avatar, or Iammars's confirming with pirate flavor. I believe the latter is a stronger point, and merits a change of vote at this juncture.

Don't dismiss this out of hand -- Iammars confirmed with pirate flavor -- he could easily be ninja scum who thought pirates were townies (pirates v. ninjas, a reasonable assumption to make). By claiming with pirate flavor, he gains points as being ready to look like a pirate -- but it now appears pirates are scum, too.

It seems that at least one reasonable explanation is that Iammars is in fact ninja scum who wanted to look a pirate.

I see this entirely viable.

vote Iammars

Wow, that's pretty good logic, and is more solid than my suspicions against TSQ.

unvote, vote Iammars

[Mgm]

Lastly:
Welcome to the game MGM, why did you put a sixth vote on gorrad?

Various reasons:
1) His speculations don´t give of a totally innocent vibe.
2) This game is pretty big, I want to shorten the random vote period and get some speed in the game.
3) I just feel like bandwagoning today.

[Thesp]

I'm glad that claus pointed out the 'neck cut' as the pirate death... Looking at it, I have to say that it's just as possible that ninjas would slice someone as that they would beat someone up. I guess that it depends on the ninja.

How is this helpful right now?

Thesp- I guess I'm using 'burden of proficiency' here, but I doubt that someone as amazing as strategy as you would make such a slip and 'not realize' that everyone wasn't pirate or ninja. Even less likely is that you would think, as town, that intentionally doing that would *work* though.

I'm not sure what you mean - if the town plays along, and acts as though it's feasible and worthwhile, it may have tripped up a one or two scum who would think that non-pirate/ninjas were abnormal. I saw no harm in trying, and I thought I would get useful reactions (which I think I got).

Perhaps I'm missing something.

[hasdgfas]

Out of the two bandwagons we have, I prefer the Iammars one as it has better logic behind it. Speculation of the setup, while it almost always comes back to bite you, is not inherently scummy. The logic used on Iammars seems a bit more, um, logical than the wagon on Gorrad, which I don't see a good reason for.
However, it's not enough for a vote from me right now. Just a

FoS: Iammars

[Thesp]

Why not, hasdgfas?

[Guardian]

I want to point out, at this time, that I said I'd be writing in haiku, being wary of cases, and pushing for short page length days in the sign up thread -- just so that if and when these things happened, people would know it was not some sort of tell.

I agree. I thought maybe you were post-restricted though, so your haikus were what I focused on, not what you were saying.

That's reasonable.

Ohhhhh. Okay. Well, here's my rebuttal:

Can you prove that my vote was not random?

No -- and I don't see how that matters. You've said you don't want to reveal the reasons for it, and haven't done much of anything proactive to try and get others to exit the random voting stage -- a cause you said was of high importance to you. Your TSQ vote *might* have some meaning behind it -- but you aren't interested in sharing, nor are you being helpful towards reaching your goal of getting out of the phase.

This dichotomy between your proclaimed goal in the game and actions in the game is what troubles me.

---

UA: I would have sworn you were in Ork Mafia. I also thought you might have read my comments in the sign up thread. I hadn't thought that someone else would burst into haiku, while not copying me. Apparently, I was in error -- you're off my short list, for now.

---

Claus, UA -- could you use less acronmys? FUD? MSU?

---

haikus:

Guardian: you were scum in open 19 and a miller in ork mafia, both games in which you used haikus: correct?

Hm, no. I looked over open 19, and I can't see where I used haiku. To my knowledge, Ork mafia was the only game I used them in, I think it is fun and freeing to do them in large games, and I think I'll continue to do so.

Haikus don't seem to work for you very well.

I'm not sure where you are coming from here. In Ork mafia, I engineered a day 1 mass claim that won the game for town. Even had you been right about Open 19 -- I survived a 89 page game to lylo and lost in great part because my partner had been eliminated a few days prior because of a coin flip, and also because of a performance by Thok in which he only voted for two townies the entire game.

Why are you suggesting that those games went badly for me -- are you that intent on me not using haiku?

Secondly: I was in haiku mafia, a game run by glork, and it was very easy to win because of the extreme limitations being forced to post in 34 syllables, at once, imposed. inasmuch, I am not sure why someone would intentionally limit themselves.

In that game,

only

haiku were allowed, at all times. Clearly that isn't the case here.

---

MBF's 108 really, really bugs me. Why? Timing. He didn't even acknowledge my logic against Iammars's existence when he, in 90, responded to the same post that said logic was in.

Instead, he voted only after Thesp and Sir Tornado did.

ps: Happy birthday Iammars!

---

And yeah, welcome hasdgfas -- what

would

merit placing a 5th vote on someone at this point in the game?

[Twomz]

There are 3 reasons to discuss the setup; 1) To eliminate some of the "surprises" that can occur later in the game (like is the 2nd NK a vig, a sk, or a second scum group?), this one leads directly to number 2 as well... 2) To pick out people who might slip out inside information and 3) For statistical purposes (if there are X number of scum left in the town, then we have 2 mislynch/NK cycles before the town defaults a lose).

That being said, a part of me agrees with Guardian, Sir T, and MBF. Even though I think there is too much of a chance that it was just some flavorful fun, this is Day 1... so

Vote: Iammars

. With 13 to lynch, I am not worried about a quicklynch right now anyway .

[hasdgfas]

Why not, hasdgfas?

Why not what?

[Gorrad]

I see where people are coming from on the Iammars wagon, but I think it's kind of weak reasoning.

FoS: Iammars

. Iammars, thoughts?

[Thok]

The Iammars wagon (as well as Thesp's attempted trap) seems to be based off of an assumption that I don't think I'm ready to accept yet. (For a reference point, this assumption would have been valid in C&H, and not valid in Space Monkey.)

I'm keeping this comment vague for a reason.

[mikeburnfire]

I get good vibes from Thok!

[Skruffs]

Thesp:
Yes, I'm aware of that.
However, for town to play along, they would have had to have fake claimed scum.

Right?

And then, after town fake claims scum, to 'play along', even if regular scum 'slips', how would you be able to distinguish between the two?

It would add confusion, not remove it.


Guardian:
If you want haikus
Go ahead and haikus use
I could care less what you do to hunt scum, as long as it 'works' for you.
It *is* odd that you think using haikus is a scum tell with other people, if they are so effective for you, though.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

I get good vibes from Thok!

That's usually a scumtell

Unvote Vote: Thok

[JordanA24]

I don't find the Iammars wagon that convincing, the way he confirmed is hardly a scumtell IMO.

Gorrad's pretty scummy, as well as with the discussing the setup, this caught my eye as well:

I see where people are coming from on the Iammars wagon, but I think it's kind of weak reasoning.

FoS: Iammars

. Iammars, thoughts?

Admits it's weak reasoning, but FOSes him anyway, I can see this as going along with the general crowd, and maybe to put more pressure on Mars. But he already has 6 votes, I want to hear from him again before maybe voting him.

KScope, intriguing reason to vote for Thok, you're voting him for looking townie, what makes you think that makes scum rather than a townie who is looking townie?

Guardian, at the end of your last post, you mentioned hasd and something to do with putting a 5th vote on someone. As far as I can tell, hasd hasn't put a 5th vote on someone, or mentioned anything about it, did you mean Claus?

Speaking of Claus:

6- expect me to skip any posts that contains more than 3 paragraphs.

Why are you skipping posts with more than 3 paragraphs, that's where a lot of the content is.

[Gorrad]

Ok, the whole discussing the setup thing? I don't get how that's scummy. If I saw someone else do it, I'd see it as a null-tell. Obviously some of y'all see it as scummy, if y'all want to explain why, that's cool, either way I really can't defend myself against something I don't understand.

As for Mars, he's getting a good number of votes while he's not at his computer. The logic behind his bandwagon is the biggest tell I've seen in the game so far, so normally I'd vote him, but I'd rather give him a chance to say his peace than add one more vote to the list of ones he gets while not able to explain himself.

[Mgm]

Why not, hasdgfas?

Why not what?

He was responding to your post right above his. If you scroll up a bit you can see exactly what he responded to.

Claus, I would hold it against you if you read long posts in a little less detail than all the others, but skipping them entirely is unforgivable -

FOS: Claus

Gorrad, it's not the discussing of the setup that is scummy, it is the manner in which you and Mr. Iammars are doing so.

[Thesp]

Why not, hasdgfas?

Why not what?

Why is it not sufficient to vote? (What Guardian said after my post.) PPE: Sarnath'd by Mgm.

Thesp:
Yes, I'm aware of that.
However, for town to play along, they would have had to have fake claimed scum.

Right?

And then, after town fake claims scum, to 'play along', even if regular scum 'slips', how would you be able to distinguish between the two?

It would add confusion, not remove it.

Here is a possible super-awesome-ideal claim-world fantasy Thesp had, which in no way involves town lying:

Town: Bob, you go first.
Bobninjascum: I'm a pirate!
Johnninjascum: I'm a pirate as well!
Towndude: I'm neither.
Othertowndude: I'm neither also.
Otherscumdude: Uh, I'm neither, too!
Yetanothertownsperson: Neither here!
Everyoneelse: Neither! Woo!
...
Hey, that's odd, what's up with the two pirates? Isn't this pirates & ninjas mafia? (lynch lynch)

I suspected it'd never actually make it to claiming time, and I figured the reactions I'd get either way would be worthwhile (and I feel I'm right). There are other concerns out there (notably what Thok alludes to), and the possibility that non-pirates-or-ninjas claimed before scum do and scum simply follow suit, but I felt the gains outweighed the possible risks.

I see where people are coming from on the Iammars wagon, but I think it's kind of weak reasoning. FoS: Iammars. Iammars, thoughts?

Admits it's weak reasoning, but FOSes him anyway, I can see this as going along with the general crowd, and maybe to put more pressure on Mars. But he already has 6 votes, I want to hear from him again before maybe voting him.

I was thinking something similar - this looks like a scum link here, especially when Gorrad follows it up with...

As for Mars, he's getting a good number of votes while he's not at his computer. The logic behind his bandwagon is the biggest tell I've seen in the game so far, so normally I'd vote him, but I'd rather give him a chance to say his peace than add one more vote to the list of ones he gets while not able to explain himself.

We can lynch Gorrad tomorrow. Iammars is for today.