PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[The Fonz]

This is a decent point, which was not at all what JordanA24 is saying. Note that it doesn't require a bazillion assumptions about the setup, just that there is a group of scum who are ninjas, and who are not comprised of pirates (and are otherwise unaware of what other roles might be out there before N1), which currently seem very, very reasonable to make.

You realize, of course, that I've hinted that I'm uncomfortable with making one of the assumptions you've suggested.

QFT. Things I wouldn't put past Stoofer:

Either of the eponymous groups isn't in the game at all.
Either or both groups = town.
Either or both groups = scum.
There is a mix of both pro and anti-town pirate and ninja roles, so some pirates are town and some aren't, and the same for ninjas.

Knowing Stoof, scumgroups are just as likely to be a sinister coalition of game show hosts or something. This means that flavour speculation is futile at best.

However what we CAN know for sure is that there is an informed minority, who have the exact same motivations of informed minorities everywhere.

[Thestatusquo]

Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.

I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.

Did you read space monkeys at all?

[Kison]

Hi,

Ah, you mean that "neck cut and beaten to death" could be 2 deaths because of the "and"?

I didn't catch that either, honestly.

MBF's 108 really, really bugs me. Why? Timing. He didn't even acknowledge my logic against Iammars's existence when he, in 90, responded to the same post that said logic was in.

/agree. FireMike! You OK?!

As for Iammars, I think the wagon has a pretty fragile basis to support it(a lot of what has been brought up is simply speculative), but I guess it works as a viable route for this early in the game. I'm more interested in hearing his response to it all than I am in joining it for the time being.

I both see and applaud what Thesp was trying to do when he tried to get everyone to claim pirate/ninja. As a result...

Unvote

Vote : Gorrad

...for ruining the opportunity.

While it could very well have been a genuine view that Gorrad thought Thesp slipped up, I feel Gorrad is a much stronger choice than Iammars right now.

Have a nice day!

[Thestatusquo]

YOu really think that gorrad not only saw that Thesp was trying to out people, AND thought it would be a strategic choice to point it out so as to foil the plan? I think you give him way too much credit.

[Erg0]

Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.

I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.

Did you read space monkeys at all?

Yes, and it illustrates my point. The Space Monkeys knew they were the mafia from the start, thus they would not immediately claim Space Monkey and out themselves. The gorillas

thought

they were scum and thus also would not reveal their real roles at the start of the game. The setup was certainly deceptive, but it was done in such a way as to prevent players (especially scum) from immediately shooting themselves in the foot.

[Kison]

YOu really think that gorrad not only saw that Thesp was trying to out people, AND thought it would be a strategic choice to point it out so as to foil the plan? I think you give him way too much credit.

I don't know him, so I can't really say what credit he is "worthy" of receiving. Like I said, it could very well have been a genuine suspicion of Thesp, but I don't find it too far-fetched that he saw the setup, realized the danger, and got rid of it.

In any event, he did wind up eliminating a potential trap, hence my vote for the time being.

[Thestatusquo]

Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.

I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.

Did you read space monkeys at all?

Yes, and it illustrates my point. The Space Monkeys knew they were the mafia from the start, thus they would not immediately claim Space Monkey and out themselves. The gorillas

thought

they were scum and thus also would not reveal their real roles at the start of the game. The setup was certainly deceptive, but it was done in such a way as to prevent players (especially scum) from immediately shooting themselves in the foot.

No, it does NOT support your point. In fact, twito was outed PRECISELY because he effectively claimed scum. The space monkeys knew they were the scum, but they didn't know that the town thought that they were scum too. This led to the scenario where twito outed himself.

[Thok]

No, it does NOT support your point. In fact, twito was outed PRECISELY because he effectively claimed scum. The space monkeys knew they were the scum, but they didn't know that the town thought that they were scum too. This led to the scenario where twito outed himself.

Huh? Twito was lynched in SM because I investigated him as a cop. And the Space Monkey role PM specifically told the scum the basic idea of the set up (and Stoofer later sent the Space Monkey's the generic Gorilla PM.)

I'm not happy at all with TSQ right now.

unvote, vote TSQ

[Thestatusquo]

Wow. You know what, I'm completely wrong here. I just reread the relevant portion of the game, and there is absolutely no claim to be a space monkey there. I could have sworn there was, and further, I could have sworn it was twito. I completely retract my statements, and will sit humbly in a corner for a while.

Thok, if you want to continue voting me because I miss recolected a game I read several months ago, then thats fine, but it's at least a little bit ridiuclous to assume I was deliberately trying to misslead, what with players who played that game in this one, and the distinct lack of benefit to me even if my falsehood weren't discovered.

[Erg0]

Yeah, I don't think that's voteworthy. Do you see my original point now, though?

[Thok]

I'm willing to accept that you completely misremembered the game, but I just really dislike your jump on Iammars and I feel like your few posts have been very opportunistic.

[Thok]

Clarify by way of double post: that last one was in response to TSQ, not erg0

[Thestatusquo]

My few posts? Way to poison my well. I've been V/LA this weekend judging a debate tournament, so I wasn't even here when the thread opened up. Since I've gotten back today at 5, I've made 3-4 posts.

FOS:Thok

for the blatant attempt to poison my well by claiming on lurking, but not actually coming out and saying it.

Not only that, but even if you buy that I have "Made few posts" and been "opportunistic in them" he's extrapolating a completely new warrant for the vote which was nowhere in the text of the original vote.

Lets look at those few posts that you say are "Opportunistic"


Post one, I give original evidence about jordan coupled with a FOS which is completely valid logically. I tell you that jordan made a claim "Ockhams razor states that it was more likely that it was joking" and then later tries to claim that the argument that Ergo was making was the one he was trying to make all along through by saying "Well put, Ergo that's pretty much what I was on about" when Ergos claim was "The setup assumptions are too great."

Then I put Iammars at an "oppotunistic" -6 from lynch because pressure wagons at the begining of day one NEVER happen.

Then there's a post which I'll talk about in a sec.

Then I DEFEND someone, not sure how that's "opportunistic"

Then I make the argument about space monkeys, which thok says he's "Willing to accept was just [TSQ] not remembering the game" Apparently, he's not, because it's the only post I make this game which could even come close to being the kind of posting pattern he's talking about.

In addition, the fact that I completely retracted shows that I'm not caring about how I'm looking to others, which is almost a complete contradiction to what he just asserted.

Fos#2 Thok

For completely being untruthful about my posts.

Bold Tag fixed by mod

[Thestatusquo]

Obviously that would be great if the mod fixed that tag.

[Thok]

Wow. That was a fun overreaction to my posts. The attempt to make it look like I was accusing you of lurking thing is particular a massive reach: if I actually cared about lurking right now there are other people I could go after (including at least one person who hasn't posted yet.)

I didn't actually give a reason for voting you in my original post, I simply said "I'm not happy with you." (My paragraph about your interpretation of SM was not really related to my vote.) I'm not "giving a completely new explanation" for my vote, since I never explained my vote in the first place.

And yes, I think pressuring Iammars is opportunistic. It's based on a fairly weak to nonexistent tell.

[Thestatusquo]

So your response to me proving everything you said is wrong is "Wow youre over reacting"

[Thok]

So your response to me proving everything you said is wrong is "Wow youre over reacting"

Um, I don't think you've proved anything I've said is wrong.

[Thestatusquo]

K, well obviously you wouldn't. I think the rest of the town will disagree.

[Guardian]

Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.

I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.

Alluding to a role-type on your first post can out you in any flavored game, especially one with a mod known for intricate and deceptive setups.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with "faith in Stoofer as a mod". Could you enlighten me?

---

Gorrad, did you realize that I had already wished Iammars a happy birthday?

Also, despite how you claim you react to poetry, I personally have a hunch scum would be more likely to copy a schtick than town.

Part

of the reason for my elevated suspicion of MBF and Fonz.

Note: I'm not suspicious of poetry in general, I am suspicious of others copying my use of it.

--

Guardian, at the end of your last post, you mentioned hasd and something to do with putting a 5th vote on someone. As far as I can tell, hasd hasn't put a 5th vote on someone, or mentioned anything about it, did you mean Claus?

Why even call someone out on a 5th vote, when I've been called out on a 6th one?

First, please put the name of the person you are quoting (Jordan in this case), it makes comprehension much easier. I edited your quote to include it.

Second -- MGM, are you saying you find me suspicious for calling someone out for a 5th vote?

--

MBF has continued to show complete disregard for anything I'm saying about him, and only Kison, of anyone, has seemed to respond to it at all.

--

I'd like to hear Iammars's response to the points against him.

I'd like to hear MBF respond, at all.

I'd like to hear more from Fonz, too, specifically his stance on the Iammars wagon.

I am also wary of Thok, and while I understand the need for subtlety in some instances, I'm quite baffled as to what this "3rd option" about Iammars might be.

Lastly, it seems really early to point this out -- but many people have posted once today, or not at all. We should be mindful of that before proceeding too hastily.

[mikeburnfire]

I already did respond. Who's disregarding whom now?

[Erg0]

Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.

I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.

Alluding to a role-type on your first post can out you in any flavored game, especially one with a mod known for intricate and deceptive setups.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with "faith in Stoofer as a mod". Could you enlighten me?

I simply meant that I don't think that Stoofer would deliberately set someone up to believe it was safe to say something flavour-based that it was not, in fact, safe to say. The Mars thing seems to be largely based on the idea that his role PM somehow led him to think that it would be a good idea to pretend to be a pirate, when this has clearly turned out not to be the case. I think it's far more likely that he was just being whimsical, not attempting some gambit that backfired on him.

[Guardian]

I already did respond. Who's disregarding whom now?

You've responded to a fraction of things I've addressed to you, and I don't believe you've said anything that I haven't already re-responded to. I apologize If I was hyperbolic in saying you hadn't responded to anything. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say you haven't responded to anything about yourself with any degree of depth OR to my satisfaction.

Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.

I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.

Alluding to a role-type on your first post can out you in any flavored game, especially one with a mod known for intricate and deceptive setups.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with "faith in Stoofer as a mod". Could you enlighten me?

I simply meant that I don't think that Stoofer would deliberately set someone up to believe it was safe to say something flavour-based that it was not, in fact, safe to say.

I agree with you there, but I don't see how it follows that Iammars was somehow "set up" by Stoofer.

If Iammars's PM was "You are ninja scum with _________" and nothing else, I could definitely see Iammars thinking "OK, I'm ninja scum... Pirates v. Ninjas... Pirates must be town!"

The Mars thing seems to be largely based on the idea that his role PM somehow led him to think that it would be a good idea to pretend to be a pirate, when this has clearly turned out not to be the case.

Considering the above example, do you see why I think Iammars might have just made an error in judgement, and not been abused by the mod in some way?

I think it's far more likely that he was just being whimsical, not attempting some gambit that backfired on him.

I'm not sure I agree here.

[Thok]

I am also wary of Thok, and while I understand the need for subtlety in some instances, I'm quite baffled as to what this "3rd option" about Iammars might be.

Are you suspicious of Thesp, who has basically taken the same position with respect to this option as I have?

[Erg0]

I agree that he hasn't been abused by the mod - that was my point in the first place. Once you eliminate that possibility, the alternative theory would be that he made what seems to me like an unreasonably large leap of logic and tried to clear himself with a wild guess at flavour during the confirmation stage. I don't subscribe to this theory.

[Iammars]

I've been at a chess tournament all weekend, thus my lack of posting. However, from a quick glance at the page, I've seen my name at least 5 times, and only one of them was to wish me a happy birthday, so I'm gonna guess that one of my few posts just exploded something...

Again.