Hi, been missing a while, just caught up, here's some play-by-play thoughts.
One- the case on Iammars is
execrable
. Seriously? You think confirming in a pirate voice in a pirates vs Ninjas game is a scumtell? Man. Thing is, I don't know who's scummier- Guardian for coming up with it, or everyone who said it was 'good logic' when it's clearly not (I'm looking at MBF and Sir T here in particular).
However, one thing that sticks in my craw is:
Gorrad wrote:I see where people are coming from on the Iammars wagon, but I think it's kind of weak reasoning.
FoS: Iammars
.
You think it's weak reasoning, and yet you're willing to FOS on the basis of it?
(Not to mention that I find FOSes with so many votes needed for lynch incredibly wishy-washy in itself I kinda find FOSing whilst not using your vote a scumtell).
Ed: Ah, having read on several pages, it becomes apparent that Gorrad means 'the thing that the wagoners have pointed out is the biggest tell' not 'the wagoners' logic is the biggest scumtell' which is how i originally read it.
Gorrad wrote:Ok, the whole discussing the setup thing? I don't get how that's scummy. If I saw someone else do it, I'd see it as a null-tell. Obviously some of y'all see it as scummy, if y'all want to explain why, that's cool, either way I really can't defend myself against something I don't understand.
Basically, it doesn't help, and it might give scum players information about what the town roles are that they didn't necessarily know. Also, that it leads to stupid wagons based on multiple assumptions that we don't have the right to make yet.
As for Mars, he's getting a good number of votes while he's not at his computer. The logic behind his bandwagon is the biggest tell I've seen in the game so far, so normally I'd vote him, but I'd rather give him a chance to say his peace than add one more vote to the list of ones he gets while not able to explain himself.
Again, overly cautious for this stage of the game.
Erg0 wrote:I kind of see Jordan's point here, though he may not have expressed it in the best way. Seeing Mars' "Yar" as scummy requires a lot of assumptions to be made about the setup, none of which we can be particularly confident of being correct.
QFT. It assumes he's a ninja, ninjas are scum, and ninjas believe pirates to be town. I don't think any of these are safe assumptions.
Thestatusquo wrote:
No, it does NOT support your point. In fact, twito was outed PRECISELY because he effectively claimed scum. The space monkeys knew they were the scum, but they didn't know that the town thought that they were scum too. This led to the scenario where twito outed himself.
The town only realised who the scum were when Thok claimed. Prior to that they believed the SM to be town, and themselves to be scum, in fact one guy was lynched for making a space monkey claim that wasn't believable. I note that you later withdrew that, but I feel this comment is necessary to hammer home the point that we ought not to start speculating and assuming shit.
I'd side with Thok in his little spat with Shea. It didn't strike me that Thok was accusing TSQ of lurking at all, and then to suggest that Thok had somehow changed his tune because 'that reason wasn't in the original vote post' when no reason was in that post, seems rather desperate.
Thestatusquo wrote:K, well obviously you wouldn't. I think the rest of the town will disagree.
I don't, fwiw.
Guardian wrote:
I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas.
-->In this game, pirates oppose ninjas.
I am ninja scum
There is a town, and I as scum oppose them.
-->Pirates are town.
You consider that to be an unreasonably large leap of logic?
Yes.
Gorrad wrote:Mgm wrote:Gorrad wrote:As for Mars, he's getting a good number of votes while he's not at his computer. The logic behind his bandwagon is the biggest tell I've seen in the game so far, so normally I'd vote him, but I'd rather give him a chance to say his peace than add one more vote to the list of ones he gets while not able to explain himself.
So what tell did you see?
His piratey confirmation. It was a weak tell, but still the biggest I'd seen in the first few pages. I'm satified with his explanation, though, so I'm back to no leads so far.
No leads? Try looking. His explanation was the obvious one for his behaviour, so it's not like you could have not realised that such an explanation was possible, or even likely.
Gorrad wrote:
I honestly don't see anyone standing out right now- there's a lot of bad play here, enough that no one person stands out among it all. I'm going to reread soon (probably later today), but a vast majority of this thread has either been attack of me or attack of Iammars, neither of which I find based on good nor on solid tells.
FoS: Everyone on either bandwagon
.
Thesp wrote:mars thing was pretty much the best thing we have to go on, and would have voted for him yourself but were waiting for a reply. Now you FOS everyone on that wagon? On top of a big OMGUS FOS on everyone voting you.
Thesp wrote:
Gorrad wrote:His piratey confirmation. It was a weak tell, but still the biggest I'd seen in the first few pages. I'm satified with his explanation, though, so I'm back to no leads so far.
What other explanation would you have expected? "Aw, shucks, you got me"?
QFT. Seriously, I'm rather suspicious of everyone who was previously suspicious of Mars, but accepted this explanation happily enough, since it's the obvious one, and had been mentioned as a possible explanation several times. I don't see how it can reassure you at all if you genuinely thought there was a case there to begin with.
Claus wrote:
I also want to see Cicero contribute more. Hey, cicero! Come back or you're not getting a xmas present this year.
Possible connection here, worth bearing in mind if either comes up scum and the other lives. When someone draws attention to a particular individual for lack of contribution, when there's no particularly strong reason why said player should stand out amongst those not contributing enough, it's often a combination of distancing and coaching in my experience.
@ Twomz: Claus set out the basics of the Gorrad wagon:
Claus wrote:
1- Early on Gorrad was a bit too interested in setup discussion
2- Then he get all "Ooh, these reasons are weak, but they are also strong, but I can't see anything better", on Iammar's wagon.
3- When he is called on it, he backs down from pointing at Iammars, and says he has "no leads". When I press him further, he generally waves towards both bandwagons.
UltimaAvalon wrote:UA's list of people who are stupid
1) People who's only argument against setup speculation is Space Monkeys
/quote]
It strikes me that most people whose 'only argument' was SMM were using it to argue
in favour of
speculation.
Mgm wrote:
One such false assumption is that since the pirate finder is town, pirates must be scum. Let's wait for a dead pirate before we draw any conclusions.
QFT. Pirates may well be scum, they may also be town (DGB being a limited flavour cop, or DGB may be a Red Herring role.
cicero wrote:Which means you arent disappointed at not getting to lynch her at all. You are thrilled that she got nightkilled. So you lied.
Or you want to waste the town's day on a personal (albeit understandable having wanted to pull my hair out while playing with her) vendetta. Your stated preference is that you hoped an extremely distracting player would stay alive so she could distract the town all day one. Which we both know results in a far less useful day one.
I see that as far scummier than say, Iammers, silly pirate yar that took up so much of the last 10 pages of, as Thesp so aptly put it, verbal diarrhea.
There's a strong meta of TSQ absolutely loathing DGB, so I doubt it's indicative of alignment. I'd rather he didn't do it, in the same way I'd rather Battle Mage didn't fixate on a player being scum and try to fit the facts into his theory, or Flameaxe didn't call anyone who came out with a bad argument a fucking moron, or I didn't get pissed off really easily when being wagonned, but none of these things are scumtells.
Thestatusquo wrote:(@Cicero) So you will continue to invent scenarios in your mind where I am scum no matter what I say? .
The man has a point.
@Guardian: Your scumlist appears to be 1. a guy who confirmed by saying 'YARR!' and 2. People who replied to you using haikus. Neither of these are remotely good reasons.
) 
