Mini 539: Game over

[Xtoxm]

Claus: Either he’s scum or Justin is, for a lot of reasons that will be apparent during a reread. Chief among these was their recent debate, which was too slippery to be town vs. town and too reaching to be distancing. Also, Claus as scum clears Incog while Incog as scum is almost required for any scenario that embroils Justin.

I am happy to believe Justin is town based on this. And Incog, but I said that already.

[Nanosauromo]

Gorgon replaces charter.

[Shteven]

Very interesting mason claim. I do believe you, which means the possible scum is getting narrower. A shame he's gone inactive, having someone who you know is on your side makes finding mafia a lot more reliable.

I'm not really agreeing with Xtoxm lately; for example, I don't think mason increases our chances of an SK. I think it decreases the chances we have a cop. I also don't think I'm scum, obviously! Charter I'm going to wait for his replacement (Welcome, Gorgon) before deciding.

That said, I don't think these disagreements point to him as scum. I am much more wary of Apyadg. I will hold off voting until we can get a replacement, but if I'm feeling suitably un-lazy tomorrow, I may post a much fuller case on why Apyadg is my (current) choice for today.

[Xtoxm]

So, is Ythill allowed to replace back in? He had no extra knowledge.

[kuribo]

Vote: Xtoxm

I don't necessarily believe Incog's mason claim right now, since it's so early. But since we don't have anything to go on at the moment, I think this is where my vote should go.

For the reasons I've listed before, and the fact that you don't get to explain scummy behavior by chalking it up to noobishness, that is why I vote you. Add that to your recent speculation of power roles that may not exist.

Incog, a claim under no pressure sets off warning bells to me--- it's still early enough in the game for the rest of us to think you're scum and trying to set MafiaSSK up as his partner.

If Incog is scum, I'd bet dollars to donuts that MafiaSSK is not his partner. If he truly IS a Mason, then I'd bet that MafiaSSK is.

[Xtoxm]

But since we don't have anything to go on at the moment

What? You think we have nothing to go on?

[Shteven]

Just curious: Incognito: Why did you feel now was the time to come out with a mason claim?

[Gorgon]

Hi. Reading now. This will take a bit of time, so bear with me.

[Incognito]

Woah, uhhhhhh. You know what? Now I'm not so sure I should have claimed Mason. I was reading through some of the threads in Mafia Discussion and apparently a Mason is just someone who can talk with another person at night. I thought that meant that the person you are partnered with is absolutely on the same side as you but apparently it doesn't always need to mean that. I'm still doing me re-read but I'll try to piece this together.

With regard to your question, Shteven, I claimed Mason to help everyone see things from my perspective with respect to Claus's Naughty and Nice list. From my perspective, Claus's Naughty and Nice list looked like a pretty good place to start since DS's role was known, I know my role, Justin Playfair's and Claus's argument seemed to suggest that JP is town, and then I knew MafiaSSK's role and *thought* I also knew his alignment but after reading Mafia discussion, now I'm not so sure.

Also, during the week-long Night phase, I private messaged MafiaSSK but he wasn't active during that time. He finally responded to my message on Friday (about a day after the thread opened) telling me he didn't know who he found suspicious. From my point of view, I wasn't and I am still not sure whether or not MafiaSSK will be returning to the game. And since I thought he was absolutely guaranteed to be town but seemed so anti-town at the start, I wanted to make sure that his role was known to all so that the town didn't go forward with a possible mislynch of SSK in the future if he did decide to reappear in the thread. Ughhhhhhhhh, fuck. I'm gonna need to pm the mod to try to figure this out.

[Shteven]

Sometimes masons are guaranteed pro-town, like cops are promised to be sane. It isn't necessary, but usually it's true and if it's not sometimes the PM will even go so far as to remind you: "alignment is not assured."

I had made the same assumption, actually. It's good to keep in mind that he may still be scum, but I'll put him down as "likely" town.

[kuribo]

Woah, uhhhhhh. You know what? Now I'm not so sure I should have claimed Mason.

Wait, you're not sure if you should have *claimed* or if you should have *claimed Mason*?

The fact that you're worried that someone could misconstrue the ROLE you claimed rather than the FACT that you claimed is suspicious to me. Along with the fact that you claimed so early under nearly no pressure.

[kuribo]

Also, despite what Ythill said (just because he was the vig doesn't mean he knew anyone's alignment), Claus' lynch doesn't clear anyone--- I've seen far more aggressive bussing than that which went on between (for example) Claus and Incognito.

To the point: Just because ChronX/Claus argued with someone doesn't make that someone a townie.

[MafiaSSK]

Since Incognito has admitted it I mgith as well too. I'm a Town Mason.

[MafiaSSK]

EBWOP:
I am Incognito's Mason partner. I also believe his alignment is indeed town.

[kuribo]

How wonderfully convenient.

[Xtoxm]

They are either scum pair or masons then. Tbh I have little to no doubt they are town.

And i'm pretty certain there isn't going to be a scum pair in this kinda game.

As far as i'm concernced they are both confirmed innocents.

[Incognito]

Rofl. Welcome back, MafiaSSK!

Yeah, I confirmed with the mod and he stated that because I'm a pro-town Mason, MafiaSSK is also one so we're both confirmed townies.

Wait, you're not sure if you should have *claimed* or if you should have *claimed Mason*?

The fact that you're worried that someone could misconstrue the ROLE you claimed rather than the FACT that you claimed is suspicious to me. Along with the fact that you claimed so early under nearly no pressure.

I was worried that MafiaSSK might not be confirmed town the way I am. So I was beginning to rethink whether or not my claim was actually worth it since I was doing it to display how close the correlation between Claus's list and possible members of the town really is. I can understand your cause for concern since I claimed under zero pressure and that would probably set off alarm bells for me if I saw the same thing (for example, like what happened with Ythill). But again, my reason for claiming was to basically prevent a mislynch of MafiaSSK in the future (since he had such an anti-town play style and still does) and to strongly suggest that Claus's list could be a pretty good "who's scum" and "who's not scum" list to base our thoughts off of.

Further, just to try and ease your suspicions a bit more, you should also consider how risky a gambit it would be for me if I were scum to claim pro-town Mason with MafiaSSK, especially considering the fact that Claus has already been eliminated from the game as scum. If we were scum and we were counterclaimed by a real pro-town Mason group, it'd be game over for us since we'd basically be able to lynch one of the pair to determine if it's true or not and then lynch the partner. And we've already assumed that there's most likely 3 scum in the game. With one down, that's two left to go so we'd essentially be doomed.

Anyhow, Xtoxm, there are two things that have been bothering me about your play thus far.

1) One is you seem to continue to concentrate on this possibility that there might be an SK in this game instead of focusing your efforts towards helping us find scum, period. The problem I see with this is I think if you were town, you'd basically be trying to help us find scum first and then worry about the SK possibility later. I can see scum worrying about an SK possibility since an SK can eliminate members of the mafia without the use of a vote much the same way a vigilante can; scum have no control over the deaths caused by an SK.

2) The other thing that bothers me is how readily you've accepted two claims thus far. You accepted Ythill's claim almost instantaneously despite the fact that at the time he did claim, he was one of your top suspects (aside from SSK and DS) and now you've accepted my claim quite readily despite the fact that I've claimed SSK as my Mason partner and SSK spent some time in your "most suspicious" list as well and you even previously made a statement about how unsure you were of my alignment.

A few questions for you:

Why are you so concerned about the possibility of an SK? Why have you willingly accepted the claims of Ythill, MafiaSSK, and even me despite the fact that for each of us, you've expressed that you were suspicious of our behaviors in the game? Wouldn't this force you to question us before moving forward and accepting the claim as simply as you have?

I really am considering placing a vote on you but I would like to wait for a status on the inactives and some input from Gorgon along with your response to these questions before coming to a decision about you.

[Xtoxm]

I think there is an SK because I can't see town having this many power roles agaisnt just 3 scum. We've had a normal vig, a doc, and now a mason group. That's overpowered from anything else i've seen in these setups, and I think an SK presence is going to balance it out.

It is untrue that i've focused on this more than finding the mafia, I have not speculated on who I think the possible SK is, and I won't until I see evidence that there is one from the night kills.

I have stated that I think there is going to be one scum on the naughty list. Apyadg. And one on the nice. Stheven/Gorgon (Charter). I can see Shteven paired with Claus.

I have readily accepted your mason claim because I can't see scum doing that at this point. It's not like scum are desperately close to losing they have to try and pull something like this off. I think it would be stupid at this point for the mafia to claim mason pair. So I believe you.

There was a defined point yesterday at which I said I was going to assume Ythill was town as he requested, so as to let him prove it. His posting style subsequently convinced me completely that he was telling the truth.

Oh, and made a mistake in my last post, edit out the "pair" and replace with "mason". Ofcourse I think there's a scum pair left in the game lol.

[kuribo]

Xtoxm, again, speculating on a closed setup isn't going to help at all. I keep telling you this, all it does is distract from the town.




Or is that what you want?

[Xtoxm]

Xtoxm, again, speculating on a closed setup isn't going to help at all. I keep telling you this, all it does is distract from the town.




Or is that what you want?

Like I just said I haven't speculated on who the possible SK might be and won't unless night kills confirm one.

[kuribo]

But that's just it, speculating on the existence of roles that may not exist isn't helpful. Especially when we don't yet have evidence that there IS one.

Again, I ask you, are YOU a serial killer?

[Xtoxm]

But that's just it, speculating on the existence of roles that may not exist isn't helpful. Especially when we don't yet have evidence that there IS one.

Again, I ask you, are YOU a serial killer?

No i'm not.

I think there is a SK because we can see already that town is more powerful than usual, for these games. I think something has to counterbalance that, and I think that thing could well be an SK.

[Xtoxm]

I'm not trying to be forceful with discussion of SK, but you are forcing it from me. Like I said I don't wish to discuss SK's possibility further unless there is evidence from NK's that there is one.

I was just stating my opinion on the over-powerful town roles...It doesn't add up.

[kuribo]

How are you trying not to force it? You've brought it up at least twice now.

[Xtoxm]

How are you trying not to force it? You've brought it up at least twice now.

I've said that I think there is an SK in the game. Nothing more.