PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[Claus]

Well, I did make a case against Gorrad back when I was voting him. It was actually one quick bulleted post summing up my complaints. Interesting that you missed that.

Thesp was pushing too hard, and too seriously, a much too silly bandwagon. And then later he begins to cheer both bandwagons. Thus the vote.

Twomz, I'd suggest you to be more productive, if you hate it so much. This "sorry sorry sorry" just makes me want to put you in the "shake this guy to see what falls off" list.

[Guardian]

@Guardian: Your scumlist appears to be 1. a guy who confirmed by saying 'YARR!' and 2. People who replied to you using haikus. Neither of these are remotely good reasons.

This isn't anything near an accurate and complete summary at this stage in the game. You read the whole thread?

Well, I did make a case against Gorrad back when I was voting him. It was actually one quick bulleted post summing up my complaints. Interesting that you missed that.

This directed at me? I specifically said people currently voting Gorrad. You are not.

Your reasons are noted, I asked you for them and you provided them.

[The Fonz]

No, like the rest it was in response to a specific post, this one:

In Ork Mafia, Gorrad, scum, copied my haikus/poetry.
I find it interesting that Fonz, UltimaAvalon, and MBF have done so here.

<snip>

It seems that at least one reasonable explanation is that Iammars is in fact ninja scum who wanted to look a pirate.

unvote vote: Iammars

MBF, UA, Fonz are also on my short list.

[cicero]

Claus sums up a Gorrad case well in 202.

[Guardian]

Claus sums up a Gorrad case well in 202.

That's what I was referring to:

Well, I did make a case against Gorrad back when I was voting him. It was actually one quick bulleted post summing up my complaints. Interesting that you missed that.

This directed at me? I specifically said people currently voting Gorrad. You are not.

Your reasons are noted, I asked you for them and you provided them.

No, like the rest it was in response to a specific post, this one:

Ok, my reasons for finding people suspicious *at that time in the game* were not nearly to the standard they are now.

[Claus]

Well, I did make a case against Gorrad back when I was voting him. It was actually one quick bulleted post summing up my complaints. Interesting that you missed that.

This directed at me? I specifically said people currently voting Gorrad. You are not.

This was not directed at you, the whole post was directed at twomz. Re-read, without the idea that you're the center of the universe

[Thok]

Thesp was pushing too hard, and too seriously, a much too silly bandwagon. And then later he begins to cheer both bandwagons. Thus the vote.

I believe this means that Thesp was fairly honest about believing in those wagons, which seems like a protown point of view to me.

I don't see why people are going after Thesp and not Guardian/TSQ, who were equally bad in pushing a silly wagon and IMHO did less in trying to analyze it/justify their reasons.

I'll also point out that TSQ/Guardian can't be pirate/ninja town, given their reactions to the secret discussion, and both are a bit too eager initially to accept the automatic pirate/ninja=scum theories.

Also, does anybody actually feel TSQ's reaction to my vote on him was a protown reaction? He fairly clearly tried to frame my vote in convoluted ways in an attempt to discredit it.

[hasdgfas]

Although pushing a silly bandwagon can sometimes get good reactions, I feel like the way that Thesp did it seemed a bit too iffy to me.

I'll also point out that TSQ/Guardian can't be pirate/ninja town, given their reactions to the secret discussion, and both are a bit too eager initially to accept the automatic pirate/ninja=scum theories.

Can't be? A bit strong at this point I think. Maybe they don't want to give anything away that doesn't need to be discussed at this point. Just completely dismissing possibilities seems like a bad idea, especially in a Stoofer game.

[cicero]

Thesp was pushing too hard, and too seriously, a much too silly bandwagon. And then later he begins to cheer both bandwagons. Thus the vote.

I believe this means that Thesp was fairly honest about believing in those wagons, which seems like a protown point of view to me.

I don't see why people are going after Thesp and not Guardian/TSQ, who were equally bad in pushing a silly wagon and IMHO did less in trying to analyze it/justify their reasons.

I'll also point out that TSQ/Guardian can't be pirate/ninja town, given their reactions to the secret discussion, and both are a bit too eager initially to accept the automatic pirate/ninja=scum theories.

Also, does anybody actually feel TSQ's reaction to my vote on him was a protown reaction? He fairly clearly tried to frame my vote in convoluted ways in an attempt to discredit it.

Overall I've been good with your play Thok but I can't accept that Thesp was totally honest. His pushing of the Iammers wagon was the thing so far that seemed most disingenuous to me.

On the TSQ side, I'm on the fence, but I thought your comments did look like a veiled accusation of TSQ lurking, for the record. Not that that would be scummy if you thought he was. I'm more surprised that you immediately backpedaled from that interpretation instead of just accepting his explanation - debating tournament or whatever.

At the same time, I havent seen TSQ as remotely pro-town. His play today has been openly doing scummy things and his defense thereof is "what what? so what!" That includes calling the Iammers wagon a good wagon, then jumping on the next big wagon, and finally his responses re: the DGB death.

[Thok]

Can't be? A bit strong at this point I think. Maybe they don't want to give anything away that doesn't need to be discussed at this point. Just completely dismissing possibilities seems like a bad idea, especially in a Stoofer game.

I find it hard to read various comments TSQ or Guardian have made as "not trying to give stuff away that didn't need to be discussed". They haven't simply ignored the issue, but they've both actively made comments that showed they weren't even pondering that possibility. There exist other people who could potentially be pirate town or ninja town. TSQ and Guardian can't be that, not unless you want to credit them with being better actors than I think they are.

[cicero]

I'm sorry but the most obvious scenario points to pirate/ninja scum and a possible serial killer. DGB was a pirate finder who was "forced to walk the plank". The flavor of her being Jack Aubrey (from Master and Commander and related books) also points to the idea of Pirates as scum since another idea, like say a mason finder, doesnt fit nearly as elegantly.

MBL had his throat slit AND head bashed in. A slit throat is the kind of thing I would expect from a ninja. Sneak up and dispatch in the most silent way possible. I dont see Ninjas bashing heads so my guess is that's a third actor. And probably a bad guy too. Heads being bashed in seems more serial killer than SK to me.

Now, should we accept that this is the definitive scenario? No. We dont know. Any of them COULD be a vigilante. And most importantly, we dont NEED to know on day one. That having been said though, I dont find people acting on these ideas as the most probable scenario remotely scummy. So of people who are "a bit too eager initially to accept the automatic pirate/ninja=scum theories." You can add my name too. Oh look at my shiny Occam's Razor. It glows in the light.

[cicero]

Ebwop: "More serial killer than vigilante" I meant.

[Twomz]

So I tend to read early in the morning and late at night, and at neither time am I at 100% mental capacity >.> And are you really going to hold it against me to miss a couple of posts 15 pages into Day 1?

On to the wagons...

Guardian's thesp case doesn't really do anything for me. I don't see any real reason behind any of the points (which is probably why I didn't remember the post or the points against him).

Claus's Gorrad case however, did catch my attention, especially point #3.

Gorrad could, you say which behaviors that Thesp displayed would be explained by his being scum? Because without anything but 'I finished my reread, if X was scum it would make sense' it looks to me as if you are just trying to cast a vote against the other large bandwagon to save yourself.

[Thok]

Now, should we accept that this is the definitive scenario? No. We dont know. Any of them COULD be a vigilante. And most importantly, we dont NEED to know on day one. That having been said though, I dont find people acting on these ideas as the most probable scenario remotely scummy. So of people who are "a bit too eager initially to accept the automatic pirate/ninja=scum theories." You can add my name too. Oh look at my shiny Occam's Razor. It glows in the light.

There's a difference between what you've said and what TSQ said (Guardian is closer to you than TSQ). You've made comments of the form "X is the most likely theory because of Ockham's razor". TSQ made a comment that completely ruled out a possible alternative theory (his comments about Iammars' possible responses to Thesp's question in particular. TSQ completely ruled out even the possibility of Iammars being pirate town.)

[Gorrad]

Twomz, did you catch my post 336?

[Mgm]

I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas.
-->In this game, pirates oppose ninjas.
I am ninja scum
There is a town, and I as scum oppose them.
-->Pirates are town.

You consider that to be an unreasonably large leap of logic?

Yes.

The fault here is that he assumed Iammars was scum when the same line of reasoning can be applied with a different starting point. Let me demonstrate:
1. I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas
2. In the game pirates oppose ninjas
3. I'm pirate town.
4. There is a scum opposing the town.
5. Ninjas must be scum.

See? The same line of reasoning applies just fine with other assumptions.
Assuming he is scum based on piratey confirmation is a very unreasonable large leap of logic.

[Mgm]

I don't see why people are going after Thesp and not Guardian/TSQ, who were equally bad in pushing a silly wagon and IMHO did less in trying to analyze it/justify their reasons.

I find everyone who's pushng or advocating a silly wagon suspicious, but unfortunately I can only vote one of them. I switched to Thesp because I thought, at the time, his wagon had more steam than that of Gorrad, but I could just as easily switch back. Also, as far as I know Thesp is the more experienced player of the two, so he should know better.

For some reason TSQ hasn't been all that visible on my scumdar, but if he's acting similar to Thesp and Guardian, he's definitely deserving of a spot on my suspect list.

[Twomz]

Well a lot of his play, especially the ridiculous traps and bandwagons, just doesn't seem like smart play. It sounds like scum trying to look town but not actually doing something that could pay off. His posts are also fairly opportunistic and with weak logic. I frankly expected more from him.

I didn't see the points guardian posted as any of these. When is he trying to look town? When is he being opportunistic?

[cicero]

There's a difference between what you've said and what TSQ said (Guardian is closer to you than TSQ). You've made comments of the form "X is the most likely theory because of Ockham's razor". TSQ made a comment that completely ruled out a possible alternative theory (his comments about Iammars' possible responses to Thesp's question in particular. TSQ completely ruled out even the possibility of Iammars being pirate town.)

Ah. This brings up a clarification I think needs making: Iammars wrote:

Thirdly, since Thesp asked nicely, I will claim pirate/not pirate. I'm not a pirate. However, I'm not too familiar with my character, so I'm not 100% sure.

Some people seem to have read this as Iammars saying that he is "sort of a pirate sort of not". By my reading, that isnt what he is saying. What he is saying is "I will claim whether I am a pirate or not" and goes on to deny being a pirate.

@Iammars - Can you confirm or deny that I am correct in this interpretation?

[Twomz]

Iammars said that he wasn't a pirate, but he is unfamiliar with he role so there is a small chance that he is mistaken on that assumption.

[cicero]

Iammars said that he wasn't a pirate, but he is unfamiliar with he role so there is a small chance that he is mistaken on that assumption.

Yep. That I know, but I thought his phrasing made people think there was sort of a 50/50 shot rather than the "not a pirate unless I'm mistaken" supposition he was making.

The one thing that is highly disturbing to me is Iammers claim that he can't research his character. With the internet at my disposal there is practically NOTHING I cant become familiar with in a few hours. I simply do not believe that he can't figure out his flavor unless Stoofer made it up out of whole cloth.

@Iammars: Try harder or stop fibbing. And don't give me a "not worth my time and energy" response unless you are indeed the laziest sloth in the universe.

(Remember: Just because I thought the pirate confirmation post case against Iammars was nonsense doesn't mean I think he's obv-town. A stopped clock is right twice a day after all.)

[Twomz]

The one thing that is highly disturbing to me is Iammers claim that he can't research his character. With the internet at my disposal there is practically NOTHING I cant become familiar with in a few hours. I simply do not believe that he can't figure out his flavor unless Stoofer made it up out of whole cloth.

Yeah, I did a double take when he said he couldn't find it on wikipedia. Made me want to lynch him just to see who he was.

[Samruc]

@Claus: I checked the Iammars wagon, and you are right. I had missed/ignored that at least two people actually said they wanted a lynch. This is the kind of thing people say, especially D1, that doesn't always make it through my noise filter... 5/13 votes is also pretty far from a lynch, but I see where you were coming from now.

***

I agree with Cicero above. The killing groups seem to be pirates + ninjas + something else. The pirate finder certainly implies pirates would be scum, and my guess is ninjas are too.

[17] All bad guys (scum) have one-shot immunity against any scum group. In other words, for a scum cross-kill to occur, a bad guy must be targeted twice by the same scum group. If a kill fails for that reason, the targeting scum group will be told that that was why their kill failed.

Since this is one of the "Special Rules for Pirates v. Ninjas!", and also because of the number of night kills (three) we should be dealing with more than one scum group. Sheer symmetry implies that it's the Pirates and Ninjas...

[UltimaAvalon]

We're still trying to guess the setup.

Why are we still busy trying to guess the setup on Day 1 when we should be busy killing scum?

Speaking of which, lets kill Guardian

Unvote
Vote: Guardian

[mikeburnfire]

[tries to reread]
[headache]

unvote, vote Iammars

Not so much for the piratey confirmation, but rather the claimed inability to find your role flavor in wikipedia.