PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[Gorrad]

Thesp, can you give me three good, solid reasons why I'm a better lynch than you (AKA, no 'I'm town, so I shouldn't be lynched')? And of course I'll do the same.

1. Thesp has been pressing a bandwagon on very poor points.

2. Thesp is pushing massclaiming. I cannot see any advantage to this that outweighs the disadvantage of having our most potent powerroles picked off.

3. Thesp is a very experienced player, and as such the only reason I can fathom why he'd be so opportunistic and weak-reasoned is if he was scum. I said before, I expected more from him. Also, in your last post, you didn't mention a single point against me, but still voted me at the end. Honestly, it seems you're covering your bases in case another bandwagon starts up while trying to not look like votehopping scum

Your turn!

[Thok]

2. Thesp is pushing massclaiming. I cannot see any advantage to this that outweighs the disadvantage of having our most potent powerroles picked off.

Thesp, as far as I can tell, has never pushed mass claim. Reading his comments, he has considered forcing everybody to claim pirate/ninja/other. There's a massive difference between that and mass claim. I dare you to find a post where Thesp wanted people to out power roles.

[Gorrad]

Whoops, you're right, I accidentally combined UA and Thesp.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, I would argue that the point day one, as a pro town player is to get wagons and guage reactions. The way you do this is get pressure on other players and then see how they, and others, react to that pressure. I don't see anything I've done today that cant be explained under that framework of day 1 pro town behavior.

Again, this misses the point. I agree with this completely but if it's to have any meaning, you are looking for disingenuous play. Just jumping on any wagon that seems to have momentum is exactly the kind of tell one
looks for in those wagons.

Not necessarily, I would say. First of all, there is a difference (especially early d1) in being on a wagon, and seeking a lynch. I would argue that the former is a tell, whereas the latter is meaningless d1. I don't think I've been actively seeking the lynch of either of these players, although I reserve the right to seek their lynch at a later time if they do other scummy things which warrant it.

[cicero]

Also, I would argue that the point day one, as a pro town player is to get wagons and guage reactions. The way you do this is get pressure on other players and then see how they, and others, react to that pressure. I don't see anything I've done today that cant be explained under that framework of day 1 pro town behavior.

Again, this misses the point. I agree with this completely but if it's to have any meaning, you are looking for disingenuous play. Just jumping on any wagon that seems to have momentum is exactly the kind of tell one
looks for in those wagons.

Not necessarily, I would say. First of all, there is a difference (especially early d1) in being on a wagon, and seeking a lynch. I would argue that the former is a tell, whereas the latter is meaningless d1. I don't think I've been actively seeking the lynch of either of these players, although I reserve the right to seek their lynch at a later time if they do other scummy things which warrant it.

I understand and this is my reaction. I just think it muddies the water. I appreciate pressure wagons. But I generally think the people on them should think the point giving rise to the wagon makes a bit of sense. So if I see you or UA or anyone just jumping on wagons, you are the people I'm going to assume are more likely to be scum. Not the poor sop who talked pirate, or even the guy that made the initial supposition to get discussion started. What flagged you to me initially for example, was when you hopped on declaring Iammars wagon "Excellent for a day one wagon" when, in my view, it was anything but.

In general, I like to ask people why they are voting for whoever they are voting for. And in my opinion, "it's day one. Kiss my ass." isnt a good answer.

In my opinion that kind of pressure wagon takes away the usefulness of day one that way because it devalues the patterns we can ascertain when we look back at day one from the vantage point of day four.

And since muddying the water is more a scum thing to want to do... You get the idea.

[Guardian]

]

This made like 1000 alarm bells ring in my head. My first game on this site had Thesp scum. Thesp scum refused to respond to stuff, said he'd do it later, and when he encountered something inconvenient would just be like "oh I'm not gonna explain this" -- "why is not explaining stuff bad"?

Have I ever done this as town, or is the exclusive domain of ThespScum?

Not that I've seen. Show?
Any response to anything else?
Or are the rest true?

I can dig through old games later, I don't feel like it right now. Generally, I feel at the very least that there are valid reasons for town to hide things (as I'm sure you do as well), and sometimes there are times when it's better not to explain things (or at the least that such explanations are unhelpful). If I showed you town instances of this, would you think this argument to be poor, then?

If you showed me multiple you-town instances of you-this, then I would consider this aspect of my argument to be poor.

Also, what do you mean by "Any response to anything else? Or are the rest true?"

I meant I wanted you to respond to the rest of my post viewtopic.php?p=907405#907405

There are a number of things in that post that you have still not addressed, that I find very suspicious about your play.

I am beginning to get the suspicion that most of the scum are likely to be the people who haven't been part of the posting diarrhea, and are lurking.

Why do you think this?

I got the sneaking suspicion that the most vocal/central players were town, and that the scum didn't feel like getting in the limelight (and didn't need to).

Why did you get that suspicion? It seemed like you got it when active players started to vote for you.

Finally had time for that reread, but it's actually something that happened after my last post that grabbed me.

Vote: Guardian

Apparently what was actually needed to convince him was a bunch of other people agreeing with me. Very sudden turn on the Iammars issue.

I like this post.

Why?

I feel very comfortable with a Thesp wagon, but as we draw closer I wonder about the wisdom of a Thesp lynch.

Are you saying you want me pressured, but not

really

pressured?

I'm not sure how much I want your pressured. I think you are very, very good scum hunter, and if you are town we want you around. My sureness level to lynch you would need to be higher than, say, sureness level to lynch Flameaxe.

However, right now you are the best bet to be scum, thought tsq is gaining ground, as he continues to not respond to me. That may be explained by his being out of town, we'll see.

Also, does anybody actually feel TSQ's reaction to my vote on him was a protown reaction? He fairly clearly tried to frame my vote in convoluted ways in an attempt to discredit it.

I've not been comfortable with the hostility he's presented in this game, but while I think it's unhelpful, I don't think it helps indicate his alignment.

Why are you talking about TSQ's tone here? Thok is asking about his content.

I'm seriously disliking Mgm. I still seriously like Gorrad.

Why dislike MGM? And what do you mean by like/dislike? You dislike MGM but like Gorrad -- this means you find Gorrad suspicious but not MGM?

[Thestatusquo]

Well, cicero, that's the point, with the little bit of stuff to go on that we have, anything with substance is what I'm looking for (generally) to get us out of the random stage. I think that to say the case on iammars is completely non existent is a bit of a stretch. I think that the case was certainly as good as we had to go on at the random voting stage. Just because it relies on a lot of speculation, does not mean that it couldn't necessarily be indicative of scum alignment. Which to me more than met the thresh hold for a d1 pressure wagon.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, to guardian. You asked what again? Please point it out. If it's something to do with the flameaxe connection, I'd say that if neither of you think you've played a bunch of games together, than I was mistaken.

[Guardian]

That's what I asked.

-->That is your response -- that you FOS'd me for something you were mistaken about?

[Thestatusquo]

Yes. Consider the FOS completely retracted.

[Twomz]

Way too many posts for Day 1. I don't know if I can do college and this game... *bangs head on table. Maybe after I get my homework done tomorrow I'll be able to reread and comprehend what is going on.

[Guardian]

Yes. Consider the FOS completely retracted.

OK then, consider my suspicion of you to a great extent reduced. Faulty memory isn't scummy; continuing to try and justify your assertion beyond a point of reasonable certainty would have been, and in my view you were approaching that point.

Also, I agree with what you were saying about being on a wagon for pretty good, but not necessarily excellent, reasons near the start of day one. Suspicion has to start somewhere, and I don't think that in the first few days of gameplay the wagon on Iammars was at all unreasonable.

Next, I'm going to re-read MBF, and also look and see if any of the non-frequent posters is lurking (as opposed to being inactive). I also eagerly await Thesp's response to the post I linked him back to.

I also recall asking him to explicitly describe the Iammars-Gorrad connection -- again, he was pushing this quite hard earlier, and I think we deserve to hear WHY!

Way too many posts for Day 1. I don't know if I can do college and this game... *bangs head on table. Maybe after I get my homework done tomorrow I'll be able to reread and comprehend what is going on.

I agree. I reiterate -- I definitely want us to find a good lynch sooner rather than later, and I think we should actively seek such a lynch.

I'll boldly say: 35+ page day ones HURT the town more than a townie lynch. Very few people are going to read that much, and I think a game that everyone can go back and re-read is MUCH, MUCH more important in the long run than most give it credit for.

Fritzler
Rosso Carne
Sir Tornado
The Fonz

Still need to contribute, though :\.

[Guardian]

And Kaliedoscope* I *think* that is most everyone...

[Mgm]

The fault here is that he assumed Iammars was scum when the same line of reasoning can be applied with a different starting point. Let me demonstrate:
1. I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas
2. In the game pirates oppose ninjas
3. I'm pirate town.
4. There is a scum opposing the town.
5. Ninjas must be scum.

See? The same line of reasoning applies just fine with other assumptions.

We fixed that potential argument by asking Iammars if he was a pirate. He said he was not. Try again.

The very same applies to the non-ninja non-pirate roles.

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Gorrad: 6 (Fritzler, Flameaxe, The Fonz, Kison, Thestatusquo, Thesp)
Thesp: 5 (Claus, Guardian, hasdgfas, Gorrad, Mgm)
Skruffs: 2 (Samruc, KaleiÐoscøpe)
Iammars: 2 (Sir Tornado, mikeburnfire)
cicero: 2 (Iammars, UltimaAvalon)
UltimaAvalon: 1 (JordanA24)
Claus: 1 (cicero)
Thestatusquo: 1 (Thok)
Guardian: 1 (Erg0)

Not voting: 3 (Skruffs, Twomz, Rosso Carne)

13 to lynch!

Deadline will be ~13th February.

Under Rule [05], nobody would be lynched at deadline.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Meh, this game is going way to fast. Someone mind giving a short summary?

[Erg0]

So just me on Guardian then?

I have about 4 pages to read tomorrow, will be back into the game soon.

[Claus]

Hrrrm... Hrrmm...

Part of my reason for voting Thesp is that I had this impression that he was linked with Gorrad. But now he is voting Gorrad and Gorrad is OMGUSing him back. I guess I'll switch my vote again:

unvote, vote:Gorrad
FoS: Thesp

And I need to re-read some people, and read some people I haven't been paying much attention to yet. But this will probably not happen before wednesday.

[Thesp]

1. Thesp has been pressing a bandwagon on very poor points.

2. Thesp is pushing massclaiming. I cannot see any advantage to this that outweighs the disadvantage of having our most potent powerroles picked off.

3. Thesp is a very experienced player, and as such the only reason I can fathom why he'd be so opportunistic and weak-reasoned is if he was scum. I said before, I expected more from him. Also, in your last post, you didn't mention a single point against me, but still voted me at the end. Honestly, it seems you're covering your bases in case another bandwagon starts up while trying to not look like votehopping scum

I disagree as to (1). I thought the points were worth examining.

I disagree as to (2) - I have pondered part-claiming, but in no way have I asserted (or think it's wise) for us to mass role-claim or even mass name-claim. Can you point out where I favored this, or can you retract (2)?

Since (3) is largely a re-hash of (1) and (2) with the added, "He's a good player, so why do I think he's playing bad?" Since I disagree as to (1) and (2), I could not assent to (3) either.

I also refuse to make this solely a you-me contest - it's not productive or helpful.

EDIT: I see Thok beat me to the punch re: (2).

I meant I wanted you to respond to the rest of my post http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 405#907405

I disagree with your assessment, and I don't see what's worth "respond[ing] to". Defenses are overrated anyway.

Why did you get that suspicion? It seemed like you got it when active players started to vote for you.

I do agree as to the coincidence of that timing - for me it coincided with the time when you and I were particularly vocal, and it seemed like there was a lot of sound and fury about people whom I was beginning to think were more likely to be pro-town. It feels like to me there are a lot of players in this game who

still

have not made significant contributions (which I think indicates at least a slightly stronger indication for scum), and I am sensitive to your earlier suggestion that D1 not exceed 20 pages.

Why dislike MGM? And what do you mean by like/dislike? You dislike MGM but like Gorrad -- this means you find Gorrad suspicious but not MGM?

Ack, typo, it should read "I still seriously dislike Gorrad as well.". Clarification: I think Gorrad and Mgm are both significantly more likely to be scum than most other players in this game.

Guardian, what do you think about Gorrad? What do you think about Mgm?

The fault here is that he assumed Iammars was scum when the same line of reasoning can be applied with a different starting point. Let me demonstrate:
1. I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas
2. In the game pirates oppose ninjas
3. I'm pirate town.
4. There is a scum opposing the town.
5. Ninjas must be scum.

See? The same line of reasoning applies just fine with other assumptions.

We fixed that potential argument by asking Iammars if he was a pirate. He said he was not. Try again.

The very same applies to the non-ninja non-pirate roles.

Can you show me how? Presume it's not obvious to me.

[Thestatusquo]

How did you edit a post?

[Thesp]

How did you edit a post?

Dadgum the typos - it should read "PPE" instead of "EDIT", though that's not entirely accurate either, as I typed as I was reading through the thread. (The prior post was not actually edited.) I swear I'm going to figure out how to use this fancy-shmancy online bulletin board thingy one day.

[Twomz]

Vote: Gorrad

for reasons in previous posts, and after reading thesps rebuttal, it appears as if he is attempting to strawman thesp to save his own butt (at least, to my caffeine deprived brain).

[Thestatusquo]

Twomz, I am getting more and more suspicious of you. Every time you've posted in this thread its about how the game is giving you a headache and you don't feel like you're actually producing anything. This is true, you're not producing anything. I feel like it's almost become a smoke shield that you're using to avoid posting content. And for someone who has not added particularly anything to the day thusfar, I expect better than a one sentence blip about an argument that has already been made as an excuse to vote the player with the most number of votes.

[Fritzler]

Resurrect: MBL

I feel the need to resurrect you as a vig and as Luke Skywalker. So kill people for me.

Protip: Jordan.

[Guardian]

!

With the rule about not talking on death, I figured there might be resurrection activities afoot! Is MBL back for reals?